The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Sherrilyn Ifill - Strategically Confronting Justice

Episode Date: January 30, 2023

Former President of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund Sherrilyn Ifill discusses why she decided to step down from her position at the nonprofit organization, why she considers the U.S. to be a "teenage" democracy, and how the current Supreme Court affirmative action case is different from previous ones.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. So lovely to have you here. It's wonderful to be here. Thank you. Thank you. I'm so happy to have here. So, um, I want to get your title right. Because last year you passed on the mantle of President and Director Council of the NWACP Legal

Defense Fund. Yes, I did. Now, how hard is it to leave that job? Because you can't go, well, my work here is done because there's so much more work to do. No, it was hard. I love the Legal Defense Fund. It's where I started my career and I love the work and I feel like I was made the position.

But I also feel like I led it at the right moment. That almost 10 years that I led the the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization the organization it at the right moment, you know, that almost 10 years that I led the organization was right for me. And I really believe transition as part of leadership, I think especially in the civil rights space. Sometimes we hold on a little too long. And I think it's healthy for our organizations when we pass that mantle. And fortunately for me, I had an amazing deputy, Janay Nelson, who's now

the head of the organization and I know that she can continue the work well and I have things I want to do because the work is not finished. Okay. Yes. And you said that, well you've said that if you were in the private sector that you would be on the cover of Forbes magazine. Well I think nonprofits get you know we that that they that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that tho tho tho tho tho tho. I that that that that that tho. I tho. I can tho. I can tho. I can th th th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the've said that if you were in the private sector, that you would be on the cover of Forbes magazine. Well, I think nonprofits get, you know, we don't get, we don't get no respect. Right. Mrs. Rodney Dangerfield used to say in that it's very hard to do this job.

And in addition to doing the substantive work, you're a business leader. You're a business leader. You're leading a staff. the the the the the the the the the the the tha. tha. the. the. thea. thea. thiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thi. thea. thoomoomoomorrow. I thoomorrow. I thoomoompef. I thoomomompea. I I thoes. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. thoananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananan. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I thea. I thea. I thea. I thea. I thea. I thea. I'm, I grew LDF five times the size it was in staff, in budget, in endowment, and that's not a small thing. And, you know, I think if you're running a for-profit company and you do that, you know, people consider you a financial wizard and a superstar. And I think I was a superstar. Absolutely. And, um, so, I think it's important to say it. But does the nonprofit allow you to do more of the type of work that you want to do, like

to achieve the goals that you want? Or like, could you do that, the same work like in the privacy? No, I mean, when I was a little girl, I wanted to become a civil rights lawyer. That's what I wanted. I wanted to be in a position the position the position to be in a position to be in a position, I to be in a position, I to be in a position, I to be in a position, to be in a position, to be in a position, to be in a position, to be in a position, to be in a position, to be in a position, the position, I the position, the position, to be in a position, the to be in a position, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the type, the type, the type, the type, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to be, to be a to be a position, to be a position, to be a position, to be a position, the the the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, ty., tipeat, tip.a, tip. tip. tip. tip. tip. tip. the the in a position where I could strategically confront issues of inequality and injustice wherever they are, however they appear. Sometimes that means, you know, that we sue corporations. Sometimes we sue states, sometimes we sue cities. And so the nonprofit space allows us to be, you know, independent. We don't take any money from government and that allows us to do whatever we have to do because, you know, independent. We don't take any money from government and that allows us to do whatever we have to do because, you know, racism and white supremacy is a complex structure and if you want to get at it structurally, you have to be able to meet it where

those structures are kind of manifesting the injustice. And you don't want to be restricted in that by who gave you money or, you know, by the rules of government you want to be able to really get at it. So I love being in the nonprofit sector I just want us to feel worthy of the kind of respect that people get in the for-profit sector for all the aspects of what we do and in fact we do a little bit we do a little bit and we do it gladly and joyfully because of our commitment to the work so it's, I love the nonprofit world and I particularly love the nonprofit civil rights world and, but now it's time to get paid.

No. No. No. Okay. This is what I want to, right now the Supreme Court, they're hearing a case about affirmative action in college. This keeps coming up over and over again. Like, why do you think, you know, we're still having this battle?

Yeah, it's quite interesting. You know, so I'm a litigator, and most litigators, lawyers know that if you're going to take a case up to the Supreme Court, you're bound by precedent. If the Supreme court the Supreme Court the Supreme Court has the Supreme Court has th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thii. thi. thi. thi. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi's this is this is this is this is this is this is thi, this is this thia, thia, thia, thia, thia, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii thi a thi thi thi thi thi thi're going to take a case up to the Supreme Court, you're bound by precedent. If the Supreme Court has decided that issue before and has decided it one way, it's very hard to get the court to reverse courts. It happens, but it's hard to do and you have to really have a reason for why you think at this moment the court should reverse course. But this court has been doing it quite a bit at a brisk clip. Yes. Yes. Yes. we know the Dobbs decision, overturned Roe versus Wade, a 50-year-old decision. And affirmative action as well. I mean, it's not as though the court is not deciding affirmative action over and over again. This is like, you know, you just keep going to, you get the court you want.

In 1979 in the Bokhi case, affirmative action in college admissions was challenged and upheld. It was upheld again then in the Grutter case out of University of Michigan. Then in 2016 again in the Fisher case, University of Texas. And after the University of Texas lost, the man who has been behind this whole effort basically said, you know, using a kind of a clue from the dissent of justices Thomas and Alito, I think I need Asian-American plaintiffs. And he said about crafting a set of claims that race-conscious admissions is actually discriminatory against Asian-Americans and that's the claim that he had brought in in Harvard,

and that's the case that's now before the Supreme Court. But should the Supreme Court be hearing this again when they just heard it in 2016 and before that just heard it in 2002 and before that just, you know, but it's a new court, right? And so basically you have somebody who keeps coming back and now they have the court they want. Okay, but this scares me about the court though. The court that we have tho th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, that, that, that, that, th. that, that, that, thus, thus, thus, th. th. th. th. thus, thus, thus, thus, th. th. th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the. the. the. the. the. the the. the the. the Supreme Court has really been our only recourse for justice. I mean, pretty much everything that we've gotten as far as rights, right, has been based a decision from the Supreme Court. Now, everything, like you said, role has been overturned. What do we do now? How do we get past this court. Well, I think actually it's a sobering moment for us to recognize that, although I think many of us grew up in a period, the the the the the the the the the the tho,, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thr, thr, thrown, thro, throooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, is thr, is thru, thr, think many of us grew up in a period of time where we believe that, it's in fact not true. It is true that the court decided Brown versus

Board of Education, which ended legal apartheid in this country and really changed American democracy and there have been many other civil rights division decisions from the court that have been wonderful. Most of them have not been wonderful actually in the history of the United States. And so we've the the history the history, the history, the history, the history, the history, the history, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, thrown, thrown, throooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the, and the. the. the. th action, with the Civil Rights Act of 1964, with the Voting Rights Act of 1965, with the Fair Housing Act of 1968. We've had to supplement it with direct action, with protests, with boycotts. We've had to supplement it with education, we've had to supplement it in all kinds of ways. And so it's always been a multi-pronged strategy. The problem we have now, though, is that that that th, is thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the problem thi, thi, the the thi, thi, the the thi, the the the thi, thi, the the th. the the the th. the the the throwne, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thrown. throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, thr-s, thr-s, throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, thr have now, though, is that the court seems bent on dismantling the successes we make in those other realms.

And so we see that with, for example, the Voting Rights Act, which has been severely weakened, you know, by this Supreme Court. That's where we have to really start to get worried. And it is a real problem. It is not something to be to be the the partisan to be to be taken light a partisan to be to be to be to be the partisan, to be to be the to be to be to be the to be the to be to be the to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the the the thiqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th.. thexxxxx. taq. taq. taq. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. true. true. te. te. te. today. today. today. today. today something to be taken lightly, and it's not just a partisan battle, as many people think. I've been a civil rights lawyer for 30 years. You win some and you lose some. The rule of law is that you abide by what the court says and does, but you do that with the knowledge that the court is behaving fairly and with integrity and legitimately.

And when you start feeling like decisions are being made without the proper foundation, then it gets very hard to convince your clients that it's a fair system. And so I think we are in a kind of perilous moment as it relates to the court. Before you go, I know you said something I want to get to, that you said our democracy, it's like a teenagers, we're young, it's like teenagers. So what democracy is what's staying up all night on Snapchat and something. Well, I mean, you know, I mean, yes, like teenagers who think they know everything, who have a grandiose sense of themselves, who throw tantrums.

Yes, we are. I mean, if you think about American democracy, at least for me, I wouldn't count America as a democracy, as certainly as a nation, but not, the, the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the to the to to the to the to the to to to to to to to to to to say, is, the think about American democracy, at least for me, I wouldn't count America as a democracy, certainly as a nation, but not as a democracy until at least 1954 when Brown was decided. Because you can't call a country a democracy if, by law, a whole segment of citizens can be denied the right to participate in the political system. So that's just and that's being pretty generous, that's 1954, I would take it to 1965 with the Voting Rights Act because

before the passage of the Voting Rights Act, even though the right of black people should have been guaranteed by the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution enacted and ratified after the Civil War, most black people then, and the the the the the the the the th.... and th. the the 14th and 15th amendments to the Constitution enacted and ratified after the Civil War, most black people then lived in the South and still live in the South and most of the South was denying the vote to black people. So until 1965, I wouldn't call us even credibly a democracy. And if you think of it that way, then we are young. And so we're still figuring this thing out, and I'd say Wanda just to give people hope. Please give me some hope. I'm gonna give you some hope. Please, please, Shirley, give you some hope. We're also trying to do something that no other country has done.

There is no template for the kind of multiracial democracy with the kind of history of white supremacy and slavery. There's no other country that's trying to do that in the dynamic way that we are doing it. We talk about being a nation of immigrants, which is not entirely true, but immigration is a huge part of the character of our country and 20th century immigration for sure made the country, the country have the cast that it does. And so we're trying to create something, we're not trying to do something like another country. We're not pointing to them and saying, oh yeah, like that. We're trying to do something very particular, and it's hard. And that's what I'm currently writing a book about. It's called Is This America?

And it is about race, but it is also about what I think of at this moment as the last best chance for us to really create a healthy democracy in this country. OK, well, when you finish you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you the w you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish you finish your book, I won't be here, but I'm sure they'll bring you back and there'll be a nice white guy sitting here. Interview. Look at it. Explore more shows from the Daily Show from the Daily Show

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