The Daily Show: Ears Edition - The Forgotten Queer History of Drag (feat. Bob the Drag Queen) | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

Conservatives are outraged by kids’ exposure to drag shows and there’s been an increase in protests at drag events. But drag dates all the way back to ancient societies and Shakespearean theater. Host Roy Wood Jr. chats with the star of HBO’s We’re Here, Bob the Drag Queen, Princeton journalism professor,  Channing Joseph, and author of the book, Drag: Combing Through The Big Wigs of Show Business, Frank DeCaro. They chat about Black and Queer trailblazers, the legacy of drag activism, and how representation from shows like Rupaul’s Drag Race has helped make drag more mainstream and builds allyship among its viewers. Bob also talks about his personal journey growing up in the south and the challenges he faced filming season 3 of We’re Here. Bob even gives Roy a drag queen name. Beyond the Scenes is a podcast from The Daily Show. Listen to new episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts, or watch at YouTube.com/TheDaily Show See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. What's up here's edition, listener. It's Roywood Jr. Correspondent for the Daily Show. You're about to hear an episode of one of our original Daily Show podcast beyond the scenes. It's the show where we dive deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show, and we chat with the show's writers, producers and experts. This week, we're talking about the history of drag and why conservatives are outraged by kids' exposure to drag shows.

This episode features Bob the Drag Queen, Professor of Journalism, Channing Joseph, and Arthur Frank DeKaro. We chat about black and queer trailblazers, the legacy of drag activism, and Bob even gave me a drag queen name. Yes, me, Roy. I got a drag queen name. Yes, me Roy, I got a drag queen name now for whenever I start my career in drag.

We hope you enjoy it. And if you like the show, check out the Beyond the Scenes podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show. This is what you got to think of this podcast as. If the Daily Show is Tomato Soup, then this podcast is all the topins you add to make the soup, to make the soup, the soup, the soup, the to-s sup to make the soup even more warm and delicious. We're the croutons and the crackers and the grilled cheese you eat with the tomato soup.

See, now you're all cozy and you got the perfect ratio of liquid and carbs. That's what this podcast is. I'm Roy Wood Jr. Today, we're the, we're crackers. We're, we're crackers. We're wheat crackers. We're a, we're wheat crackers, can we be whole green? Let me be a, let me be a, one of them, a rye, what's the dark bread?

I know what you're talking about. Let me be a pumper nickel cracker or something. I want to be a pumper nickel. That is the voice of our guest, Bob the drag queen, and I'm Roywood Jr. And today we're talking about a segment on the show with correspondent Dulce Sloan, where she talked about the history of drag and the rise in protests and threats directed at drag events and the number of bills introduced by Republican lawmakers

seeking to prevent children from attending drag shows. Let's get a quick clip. Hello, friends. If you know me, know that I love me some drag. It's like sports, but for people who don't want to deal with any balls, if you know what I mean. But recently, conservatives have been acting like drag is some brand new thing that liberals dreamed up to turn your kids into glitter devils. Now, while 18th century England gave us drag queens, 19th century America gave us drag balls. It's the only time queens colonized the country and made it better. One of the most famous drag performers at that time was a former enslaved African named

William Dorsey the Queen's swan. Dorsey slayed so hard he went on to become a pioneer of modern ballroom culture. America's drag balls brought the culture to the next level. In Harlem, they became so popular that men and women would come from all over to present their looks to a panel of judges, pageant style. And you know, there's something comforting and knowing that even hundreds of years ago, people were telling someone to their face that they were a messy bitch whose outfit is the circle of life. Later on in the show, I'll be joined by some additional guests who are going to help me dive into the history of drag.

But first, my fellow Pupanickle is on the microphone with me today. Pupanickle, please. Rupal's Drag Race, season 8 winner, host of the podcast, sibling rivalry and star of HBO's, We're Here, which just launched his third season. Bob the Drag Queen, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. How do you do? I'm well. Thank you so much for asking. Thank you for having me. And I'm really proud to now. You know, yeah, we have our third season. We're here. Our Emmy Award-winning television show. We're we're here I'm very very proud of it. What I appreciate about that television program is that you don't just tell the story

of this world strictly from liberal enclaves as they like to say. I flip past one day and y'all was in Jackson, Mississippi. Oh my God, we, Jackson Mississippi. He's pulling up in the South South. That's the cheese grit south. Oh yeah. In place where they call what what what what what what what they call, what they call, what they call, what they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call they call. We'll they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, they. Oh, they. they. they. they. they. We's they. the. the. they. they. the. We're they. they. the. the. the. th. the. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the That's the South side. That's Cheese Grit South. Oh, yeah. In place where they call, what they call, what they call it, Mississippi. We was in Mississippi, honey, and Mississippi. That's like a drag queen down there. What would say it's Mississippi?

Miss Sippit. If you could, as lamen as you can, for our listeners who don't know, Explain exactly what drag is. This is how I define drag. Drag is blurring the gender line while creating art. Not all drag queens do numbers, not all drag queens dance, not all drag queens scenes, some drag queens do comedy. I know a drag queen named Linda Simpson who takes photographs. You know what I mean?

Like if you, people who, there are people who, there are people who are peopleto the club and just being pretty and sitting there and hanging out and partying. There are people who go up there and they do, I'm a stand-up comedian. So you know when I do it, me, Bianca del Rio, we do stand-up comedy when we do a flame monro. When we do our drag. And some drag artists, you know, are women and some are men and some are men and binares, some are cis women and some are men and some are non-binary, some are cis women, some are trans women, some are cis men, some are trans men, some are gay men, there are some straight men out there doing drag. I love everyone actually, they don't know,

they never heard of a straight drag queen while watching all the Talipari movies. I'm like, okay, sure. Sure, you never heard of a straight drague. Let th and th, to the beginning for you just in terms of your introduction into the world of drag. What were some of your experiences like early on? Like early and take me back Bob to drag queen 1.0. What you were even drag queen or you was just Bob, pretend to drag queen to be?

So what was it like? When I was young, my mom owned a drag bar in Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, Columbus, and Columbus, Col Col, is, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, is a drag, used to actually own a drag bar. My mom owned a drag bar in Columbus, Georgia called Sensations. If you are a Gen Xer or a Boomer who was gay in the Columbus Georgia area, in the 90s you probably went to Sensations and you probably went to my mom's drag club, and that's where I first heard of and you know encountered the species known as drag queens. When you first started drifting into the world of drag yourself, did you have representation? Did you have role models? Were there other examples or were you navigating this world on your own in a complete fog? So when I started drag it was 2008, 2009, and I was in New York City. I was 22, 23 years old.

And I was really kind of just basing it off of what I see, because Rupal's Drag Race had just started on TV. Now I knew Drag from RuPaul and Suong Fu and Priscilla Queen in the desert and you know, movies like that. Ruby, Ruby Heart, what was the Ving Rame movie? Oh, Holiday Heart. But then, by this time, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the the th, th, th, th, th, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was th, I was th, I was th, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was tha, I was tha, tha, I was tha, I was tha, I was tha, I was tha, I was tha, I was tha, I was tha, I was? Oh, Holiday Heart. Holiday Heart. But then by this time it was something called Repo's Drag Race. It was less characters of drag and more like actual drag queen. And I thought it was just so interesting. I was like so impressed. So then I went out and I got myself some

makeup and I went to the local club in my called Lavish Lounge. You used to be in Queens. Also it doesn't exist. As we keep talking most the club. the club. the club. the club. the club. the club. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. L. I, th. I, th. L. It's, th. I was, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I was, th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. It. It. It. It's, th. I. It's, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, t. I'm, t. I'm, t. t. th. th. th. th. th. th. th of the clubs I'm going to mention especially after the pandemic a lot of them just don't exist anymore So they're only in the minds of of of people who were in these spaces But it was lavish lounge in a story of Queens and I remember going and I remember going and seeing these queens and I remember the queen I met for the first time ever her name was blackie. Oh, her name was blackie. Oh, their name was her name. She she. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She was. She was. She was. She. She. She. She. She. She was. She. She was. She was. She was. She was. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She was. She was. She was. She was. She was. She was. She was. She was. She was. the. the. the. the the. the the the the the the the. Onassis. Her name was, her name was Blackie O'Nasty. It was her name actually. And I started going out, so it was a little bit of like what I saw on the internet. You know, there was no Instagram. Instagram hadn't even been an Instagram yet. There was no Instagram.

There was no, there was those Facebook and the clubs and I would go to and what I saw in Rapids Drag Race. So I was there was definitely some representation but it was it was not as easy to find it's so easy to find drag queens today. You can't throw a rock without hitting a wig, you know? You come from the south. You come from Columbus, Georgia all the way up to New York. How much of a culture shift was that, or was it welcome? Because growing up in the South, like, how did the South shape your views on gender roles? And like, this drag helped blurge gender lines and challenge strict gender norms? Like, talk to me a little bit about the empowerment of it,

versus where you were, what it was thought of where you were, what it was thought of where you were, versus where you went as a 22-year-old. It was way more open. So when I was a kid, and I grew up in the South, so I did get a lot of gender roles and gender norms tell me what it means to be a man, a lot of my raising, instead of focusing on what it meant to be an adult, I was often to told what it meant to be a man. Like as if there was this really specific unique set of rules that men had to follow, that women didn't have to follow, and vice versa. Women have to do this and men can't do that. And I kept bucking against it.

I never wanted to go by those rules. I always wanted to like go against that and do something slightly and challenge. And that wasn't just like I was, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th.. to, th. th. to, th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to wasn't just like I want, it was just like I just didn't feel comfortable with the idea that I had to do certain things just because of what was between my legs and what I was born with. So now it's like so now I literally have to do this, you know what I mean? And as a black man, I already have that societal expectation on me. You know, as a black person you have to act a certain way. You know, as a black person, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, to to to to to to to do, their, their, to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the lot of respectability politics as a young black person. You know, a lot of us were taught like you can't act certain ways in front of white people. That was like ingrained in me. So when I got to New York I was able to release all of that and and just do what felt comfortable

to me. I guess the cool thing about it is when you're in New York you are amongst your peers and you have have this degree, you have a support network, if nothing else. Talk just a little bit about that part of it, like, because it is not, it's not necessarily always the safest occupation, if we're just going to be 100 about it. Talk to me a little bit about first learning that part of the game, and, you know, who were the people or just, how was the ecosystem in New York at the time that you were th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi-up, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, if thi, if thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th............. th, th, th, th, th. th. And, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the they, they, thi. And, they, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, th you know who were the people or just how was the ecosystem in New York at the time that you were coming up to start developing those types of protections. So when I started going out to the clubs I met just some of the like I mean talk about like walking into a bar or a club or a place in general and meeting people you're like, wow these are really my people. Like I actually found my people. You know, I started doing drag with peppermint, frosty,

all these names are gonna sound so funny to you all, but to me they're like old friends, peppermint, flossy, frosty flags, honey Lebronks, rescando de la verga, blackie, nasty, nasty, chandelier. these are all the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people are all the people that I, you know, Pixi Abantota. Shag names are legendary. This is, keep going. These are all the people that I was doing drag with. And we even had like networks to help each other get to our gigs on time and safely, you know,

there'll be times where if you know, taking a car in New York City is very expensive. This is even before Uber. First of all, getting an Uber, getting a car as a drag queen, sometimes it's impossible. As a black drag queen, forget about it. They're never gonna stop for you. So you have to take the train down. So if I live ride the train by herself either. So I stop off at Kisha's car stop. I grab Keisha and we go down, then we stop at, you know, maybe Frosty's stop to grab her

so we can get to the bar in Chelsea safely. So we're all like in a group together and not traveling alone. And you have to factor that into your travel time on a regular basis because Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, the Uber really changed the game because we were able just call cars and if you had a good night we made money. If you didn't have a lot of, if you didn't make any money that night, you can't afford the Uber and you have to take the train home anyway. But yeah, traveling in large groups is very, it was a great way to keep safe. Going back to this idea that just the idea. toe. the idea. toe. toe. the idea. toe. toe. the idea. the idea. the idea. they. to. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. their. their, their, thii. thi. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe. toe. We we we we were. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. t t t t t t toda. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. toda. Wea. Wea. Wea. toda. toda. Wea. today. Wea. t t t just to live your life you all had to literally schedule what times you congregated on the train so you could travel in numbers. Talk a little bit about drag's history and activism and speaking out on a lot of the bullshit that's out there in the industry. How have you been

able to use drag as a vehicle for political activism as well? Early in my drag I was doing a lot of political political activism. I started a group called for political activism as well. Early in my drag, I was doing a lot of political activism. I started a group called Drag Queen Weddings for Equality with my friends. We would go to Times Square and we would do these weddings, these wedding demonstrations where two drag queens would get married by a drag queen pastor. And we would hand out wedding invites, and the wedding invites would have all this information on the back about injustices to the queer community. And then we would would th th the thue thue thu thuuuuuuuuu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, tho, tho, tho, thi, the, the, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. the, the, the, th. We, th. We, th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th. th. th. th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thr, thr, thr, thr. I, thrown, thrown, and, and, and, toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, thr. the on the back about injustices to the queer community. And then we would do these demonstrations where we would shout out more things and give people

calls to action and how they can, you know, who they can call, who they can talk to, how they can make a change. There was also some early arrest in my, in my drag career, getting arrested and I was one of those activists, you know. And that certainly did not thuuu, th. thu, thu, that thu, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, that, thi, that, that, tho, tho, tho, tho, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, to, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, those activists, you know. And that certainly did not start with me. I mean, even back to the Compton Cafeteria riots, you know, drag queens, drag artists, gender benders, have been bucking against the system to create change for people, not just for gay men, but for, and not just for queer people, but for black people, for reproductive rights, immigration rights, even environmental right, I mean,

I know Queens who are here, you know, saving the wells, you know, like Drag Queens, if there is a, if there is a, somewhere to put our contoured nose in your business, honey. After the break, I wanna talk a little bit more about how the added television exposure about the world of drag, what to to tooes, the pros, tooes, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the pros, and, and, the break, I want to talk a little bit more about how the added television exposure about the world of drag, what the pros and cons are from shows like Rupal's Drag Race and your show, we're here. This is beyond the scenes.

We'll be right back. Bob, I want to ask you about the television shows that have stepped into the mainstream now. You know, you have a show like RuPaul, the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, uh, uh, the, uh, the, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the mainstream now. You know, you have a show like Rupal's Drag Race, which I'll say this, and this is, and I speak as an alum of Last Comic Standing, Third Place 2010, check the Wikipedia. I feel like adding a competition element to anything, makes people more likely to watch it. It makes people more open to immersing themselves in worlds

that they don't necessarily care about simply because you're seeing people who are trying to be the best at it So like I feel like RuPaul's drag race nail that coming off the heels of top model Essentially which I feel like was kind of a precursor. I'm not gonna say that the two are necessarily connected But there are Rupal has acknowledged that drag race is inspired in part by top model and I think. I th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi I thi thi thi thi they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're ti. te. te. te. te. try. tel. try. tel. tell. they're not they're they're they're they're they're they're part by top model and I think you're absolutely right I mean like even shows like Nelda you would never watch someone poorly pick a cake but when you put when they're competing and you have someone hilarious like Nicole buyer doing it's like yeah I'm love to see that also I want to quickly say so you remind me beyond a scenes a great drag name beyond a the scenes oh I love her honey give it to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. the they. the they. the the the the they. the the the the the the the they. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the scenes is a great drag name. Beyonda, oh, Miss Beyond the Scenes. I love her, honey. Give it up on its Beyond the Scenes.

Beyond and then lift up the back skirt or some shit to see beyond the scenes. But no, it's so like RuPaul's Drag Race or even we're here. Like I feel like they've all helped push drag into the mainstream and you showcase a different lens of queer. Like we're here as different from drag race and that it's about the nuance, it's about the emotion. These are reality shows and we haven't even gotten it to scripted stuff like pose or like, but it's like what do you think that those shows help do to change the perception of queerness in America? So you know the drag race fan

base you think it's just a bunch of gay people watch drag race but it's actually not all gay people a lot of straight people watch drag race and then what ends up happening is you have a lot of allies watching drag race and drag race but on the air for six to 15 season, 16 seasons now so so what happens is these kids who are watching drag race and they're young are now allies adults who have to.. the the their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. to to the. to to to to the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. th happens is these kids who are watching drag race and they're young are now allies, adults who have children. You know what I mean? They're now full on adults who have children who will also be allies. It's kind of when I told one of my friends, one of my friends,

who's like a white consecrator was like, who couldn't understand in 2020 why I was so so important, like why can I just do my thing and not say this? I was like, you don't have to say it. Let me say you don't have to say, but I will say this. If you do say it, once you say Black Lives Matter, because because you matter to them, then, they hear you say Black Lives Matter, now Black Lives Matter to the house. Now we have a Black Lives Matter in the House of C. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. Because. Because. Because. Because. Because. Because. Because. Because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, to. to. to. to. to. to. the. the to. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to or doing something like that. So you're basically just spreading the word, you know what I mean? And I think that, and I think that's the situation that we're in right now. That's how drag races change the world of understanding queer people, in my opinion. This also shows like pose, queer eye for the straight guy, Rupal's drag race, legendary, uh, transformation. There there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there's there's there's there's so there's so there's so there's so many there's so many there's so many there's so many there's so many there's so many shows there's so thoes so many shows so many shows so many shows so many shows so There's so many shows like this that put queer people in

front of people who are potential allies and let them see that we're not out in these streets doing some of this weird and nefarious stuff that they think we're trying to do. We're just living our lives. You can't let them people touch it because then you turn into one of them the Bible. You know I would tell folks I was straight th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and them people touch you because then you turn into one of them in the Bible city. You know I would tell folks I was straight and then I took the vaccine and now look at me and then I then I got a booster and now I'm non binary so watch out for that Pfizer it'll get you good. I don't I don't like the intersection of anti-vax in homophobia I'm not even sure if I'm supposed to laugh. Am I allowed to laugh? You sure? I'm gonna laugh later. You can get me off. Off-camera. So that's the positive benefits of the show. Let's flip it to the negative side because you know a lot of groups, a lot of organizations try to use

these shows to springboard and justify their hatred and discrepan- like has the exposure from these shows also opened it up more to hatred and discrimination for for viewers you know like I know like just talk to me about we're here like what's that like just being out on set shooting because if I'm a daily show correspondent at something where like I was at a pro-gun rally and They was not fucking with your boy I can imagine I can imagine So what's that like when you're out in? Places like? theyclus. they? they's like? theyp-I'm theycepah. Yeah, in full drag with cameras like what you face with this show?

I think the real really what people don't appreciate Appreciate is the reason why Jordan Clepper can go into these spaces is because they don't know That he is not one of them until he exposes himself, but when you but you but you, but the roy Woy would they were like they're like we now we know we know we know you you tell you thinne? you you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the the the th, the the the the they, they, they they they they they they they they, they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they th, th, th th th tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha, they they're they they're they're they're they're they they they sports, when Roy would you want, they were like, they're like, now we know, we know you ain't one of us. You need to, you have a camera? You have a camera and you black, no, absolutely not. But they'll go up to Jordan Clapper because he's white and he's tall, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you, you, and, and, and, and, and, and, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, you, you, you, tell them their whole life story, do they realize that he's, that's why it's perfect for it. And I'm happy, go do that shit, Clepper. We happily, every time they have a meeting,

we like, we think Clepper should go do that one. Whenever I'm on the streets, like I just had an instance in Jackson, Mississippi that is on the street like I'm I'm not even in drag I'm just walking on the street looking and then all of a sudden they're like oh There well there's one of them they're quares so they start yelling at me from across the street Just for walking around like they're throwing completely basis accusations at me And they feel like what like this sounds like a long this sounds like a thou' two syllable slurs you're???????? the th? thin, thin, the thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, they, they, they, they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and their all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and they, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thi, the, the like, the like, theat theat theat thruuuu. they's they's they's all all all allthis sounds like a, because it doesn't sound like these are just one or two syllable slurs. You're saying it was spitting whole phrases at you? Well, no, they were saying stuff like,

they didn't call me a faggot per se, but what they did do, they called me a, they called me a pedophile, they called me a peri, they called me a per, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me, they called me a, they called me a, they called me a, they called me a, they called me a, they they they they they they called me a, they called me a, they they they they they they were saying, they were saying, they called me a, they called me a, they called me a, they called me a, they called me a, they called me a, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were they were they were they were they were saying, they were saying, they were saying, they called they called they called they called me a per per pervert, they called me a pervert, they called they called they called they called they called they called they called they called, they called, the street corner. I mean I was holding a purse So I knew I was gay, but I was just standing on the street corner holding a purse And from that from that from seeing that they they ascertained They came to the conclusion I was a pedophile a pervert. I was up to no good. I wanted to their kids and I was like I'm like I'm literally just the try to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they they they they they they they their their theyre theyre's their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tree. tree. tree. tree. tree. tree. tree. I was just just just just just just. I was just. I was just just just. I was just just just just just just just just just just just just just just I was just so the time I was we had just finished filming and they hadn't put the cameras down yet because they all all they just linger around a little bit I was like oh I'm gonna get some ice cream I was like I'm gonna get ice cream I was literally just looking for ice cream and then I was literally just looking for ice cream and then I got like you know verbally assaulted by these guys by by these guys so they they're gonna to to try they didn't they didn't they didn't they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their I'm to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I I I I I I I was I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I to to to to to to to to their I I I I I their I their I was I was their I was they I was they I was to to told to to to told to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their I was their me names but but I was interesting maybe like two or three of them but the interesting about them but they actually weren't it's not like they were being supported even in Jackson even the folks in Jackson were like can you what what is wrong with y'all like we're not they're like everybody

in Jackson ain't doing this this this is them we're good country folk like you're like this has it gotten beyond that thi thi the the the the the the the the they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they they're they're they they're they they're they're they they're they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're thi thi thi they're thi they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're. This is them. We're good country folk. Why are you doing it like this? Has it gotten beyond that? Has it been any like type of death threats or threats of violence on any of the suits? We have had, we've had threats of violence for sure on our show. And luckily we do have security detail everywhere we go you'll find out in episode one. We were going to have a reading of this book, Shangelo, my drag sister, are gonna read some books of these kids and then they decided that they didn't want it to happen.

So they called and threatened to, they didn't threaten to shoot the place up, but they said, if you we're going to kill you, but we're saying that we have guns, we carry and will be there. So basically they threatened to do what actually happened for real in Columbus, Ohio when there was a drag show and a bunch of right wingers showed up open carrying to intimidate people from ever coming to the show and the show. And the show ultimately was canceled. Yeah, and it happened again recently a couple of days thick. th to a drag event with guns and weapons, which is so I never thought. Like my adulthood is mostly New York City. So being around people who are like, because New Yorkers, like I've walked the streets in full drag for practically every hour of the day. I've done something at brunch, I've done something at, I've gone home at 3, 6 a.m. I've done the whole gamut. New. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And I's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. So. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. to. to. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. th. the day. I've done something at brunch, I've done something, I've gone home at 6 a.m.

I've done the whole gamut. And New Yorkers don't give a fuck. They don't care about you, they're not looking at you. They're not trying to find out of their place and get back. These people are going out of their way. They're driving miles and miles to do what to do to do they think is right. So then to that point, then let's talk about how politicians have been able to levy that vitriol and try and turn it into votes and legislation and all of this nonsense.

Like we've seen a wave of anti-trans bills across the country and now Republican lawmakers in several states are trying to propose legislation to ban minors from even showing up to the drag shows. Like all that reading to the kids, that would be you would literally go to jail for that. What do you think is the motivation behind those types of bills? And like why now? Why now all of a sudden does there seem to be an uptick in this type of legislation from right? Trying to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get children to get children to get children to get children children to get children children to get children children children children children children children children children children children children children children children children children children children children children to get children children children to get children to get children to get children children children children children to get children children children to get children children to get children children to to get children children to to to to to get children children children children children children children children children. to to to get children children children children children children children children children children to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get children to get to get children to get children to get children to get children to get children to get children to get children to get children to get children. to to to to to to to to to to. Trying to get children banned from drag shows is,

it is just a sneaky ploy, in my opinion, from right-wing conservatives to make it seem like all drag queens want kids at their shows. Most of us don't want your fucking kids at your show. Does your kid have a dollar? Did you get have money to tip? We don't want your fucking kid at our fucking show. There are some people who want to read who want to read to kids, but most drag queens are not making. I'm gonna like I don't make any content for children.

I don't I don't. It's like stand-up comedy. Most stand-up comedians don't want kids at their shows. Now there are some comedians who make comedy that will be suitable for children. Yes, there are some comedians. There are there there are there are there are some there are some the the the their their their their their their comedians. It is their comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. thomed. It is some comedians. thomians. th. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is thom. It is thomians. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. th. th. th. th. It is some comedians. th. th. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some comedians. It is some some comedians. It is some is a very small it is a tiny Group of comedians it's in bed Brian Regan Yeah, there's like three niggas out there making comedy for kids You know what I mean but the truth is most comedians don't want to look down and see if I can't get it their show and And most directly in the same way, but when you are

then when we interviews now even even though I don't want kids at my to to to to to to to to the the to to the to the the the to the to the the the the the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the teck. tea tea tea. tea. tea. te. te. te. te. te. the the the the the the the the the the the they. the same way, but when you are, then when you're interviews, now even though I don't want kids at my show, I now have to defend why kids should be allowed at drag shows, even though I don't want, even though I don't want kids in my fucking show, this is crazy. This is, and it's such a sneaky little tactic that they use, so now I'm defending something that I don't even want. but I to, but I to, they, they, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, they, the, thua, th., thruge, th., thr-I, thr, thr, thr, thr, thr-I, thr-I, thr-I, thr-a, thr-I, thr-I, thi, thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, th... thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, th so now I'm defending something that I don't even want. But I think there are some drag artists who are completely appropriate for children. I'm not one of them, that's why I don't have kids at my shows. Okay, so then if the kid angle is the smoke screen, what do you think is the real reasons for the legislation? Transphobia, transphobia, and attempts to push trans people

into non-existence. First they don't want trans people in the bathrooms. So now you can't use bathroom unless you're at home. You have to wait to go home to use the bathroom, which is bullshit. We've all had to rush to use the bathroom somewhere, run into somewhere. And then they say, well, you can't mention any of it at school. If you're trans at school, you better be hiding. So now if you're a teacher, if you're a student, if you're a principal, if you're a janitor, you cannot mention that you're trans or even that you know trans people

because the things like they don't say gay bill. And now they don't want they don't want they don't want they don't want they they they they they they you they're you to you to to tho tho tho thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin the thin the thin, if you're a tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tho thin thin thin thin, if you're a thin, if you're a thin thin, if you're a thin, if you're a thin, if you're a thin, if you thin, if you thin, if you tha all. And it starts with the bathroom, they push you out of the classroom, they push you out of this, they push you out of that, they push you out of that, they push you out of that, and by the time they push you out of all these places and spaces, you are just existing in your home so they don't have to see, grooming part of it. A lot of these bills are around like originally it was the bathroom they gonna try and get you in the bathroom oh that didn't work okay

where they try and they're trying to turn your kids and know one of them. Let me turn down the most the most dangerous thing that could happen at a drag show is that a conservative might show up with a gun and kill someone it's not the drag queens it's not the people the people the people the people the the the the the the the the the most. the the the the most. the the the the most. th is is. th is. th is. th is. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thr-I is thr-I is the. the. the. the. the. the. the. thi. thi. I I is thi. I is thi. I is th. I I is th. I is th. I is th. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is is. I is is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's is. It's not. It's not. It's not. It's not try. It's not try. It's not try. It's not try. It's not try. It's try. It's try. try. try. try. try. try. try. It's not try. I's not the drag queens. It's not the people coming to see the drag queen. The dangerous, most dangerous thing at a gay bar is that a conservative might show up with a gun and fucking kill you. It's needless to say, this type of rhetoric from the politicians, from the right wing incites a degree of violence against this community.

Like even just this year, I think I got the stats, right? Over 120 protests and significant threats in 47 states so far this year, just against LGBTQ and drag events this year. What is the response to that from the drag community? Is it just security? Like what can you do to continue to foster a safe environment where people can be themselves? Well, I think that know when when things happen like what like what like what happened this recent shooting in this in the in the gay club recently and in the Walmart. The Colorado Springs and in that Walmart they call them the shoot but they don't call them terrorist. I don't know why they never get they never get labeled as terrorist. It is terrace. It is terrace. It's domestic. It's domestic. It's domestic domestic domestic domestic domestic attempt to scare you out of out of leaving your home.

Again, remember the whole goal is to get you to stay away so they never have to see you. You can't even go hang out in spots, places that are just for you. Now they want you to just hang out just in your home, go away, never be seen out in public ever anywhere. And the be gay. He's like, you're not worried that your son killed five people allegedly. You're mad that he might

have been gay in the process. Like baby get your, get your priorities together. And you know, drag artists are not going anywhere. So I hate to break the news see Mary, but drag has been around for a very long time before anyone who's alive now has been breathing. Drag has been around for a very, very, very long time. Trans people have been around for a very, very long time. And we're not going anywhere any time soon. You have given us more than enough of your time. The show is we are here. You can see that on HBO, HBO Max. And, and and and and we're not, and we're not, and we're not, and we're we're we're we're, and we're, and we're, and we're, and we're, and we're, th, th, th, and we're, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th th th th th tho, tho, tho, tho, th, th, th, th, th, th, th who's th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th who's th who's th who's who's who's who's who's who's who's who's who's who's who's who's th. th. th. th. th. the who's the who's the who's the who's that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the who's the who's the who more than enough of your time. The show is we're here. You can see that on HBO, HBO Max. Bob the Drag Queen, thank you for going beyond the scenes. My pleasure. And please check out Roy and his new drag career and his new drag name Beyond the scenes. After the break, I'll be joined by guest Channing, Joseph, and Frank DeCero, who will give

us some insight into the origins and history of drag. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Beyond the Scenes. Now, I just chatted with Bob the Drag Queen about his personal journey and the importance of representation on screen and all of the attacks that conservatives have on drag and that entire culture. But now, let's talk about the long history of drag. I'm joined now by two guests who are going to help break this down for us. First, I'm joined by journalists and professor of journalism at Princeton University,

Channing, Channin, welcome to the show. Great to be here Roy. Thanks for having me. Might I add, Channing, your headphones are stunning. Thank you. I'm also joined by the author the author the author the author the author the author the author the author the author the author the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I th. I th. I th. I'm the th. I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. tog. tog. tog. ta. tog. Might I add, Channin, your headphones are stunning. Thank you. I'm also joined by the author of drag combing through the big wigs of show business. Frank DeKaro, Frank, how you doing? Thank you for joining us as well. Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here. Now, this question is for both you, but Frank, I'll throw it to you to to to the origins of drag and just where the term drag comes from let's just start with

the basics. Well a lot of times they say that the word drag comes from a woman's clothes dragging on the ground. I don't know if I believe that and hopefully chatting us as a better perspective on that but I will say that as long as a guy has been on the stage and as long as being on a stage or being in public has been popular entertainment and drawn a crowd, somebody has been cross-dressing to use the oldest possible term you can think up for that. Shakespearean tradition has men playing female rows. Kabuki tradition has that the English pantomimes, which still exist today every holiday season, has the pantomime dame in it.

There's always was someone dressing either a man dressing as a woman or a woman dressing as a man when we were thinking in the most binary of terms. But that's always been a part of entertainment. And the drag queen, let's say that, the sort of multimedia drag queen, has existed at least since the early 20th century. And perhaps even before, there's evidence now that the first drag queen may have been a freed and slave person. So, and that's a whole other thing that we're all looking at now and wondering more about. But there was a guy in the early in the teens, the 1912 who got his own Broadway theater named after him and he was one of the highest

paid entertainers and show business named Julian Eltinge. And everyone kind of looks at Julian Eltinge as sort of the grandmother of the mall because she was kind of the rude Paul of 1912. She had had the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, in th, th, th, th, th, in th, in th, in th, in th. th. th. th. th. th. In, in th. In, in th. In, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, th, th, th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and the the the the the the the the thean, and the the thean, and the the the the thean, and the the the mall because she was kind of the rude Paul of 1912. She had a magazine to give women tips on how to look beautiful. She was in movies playing, you know, a spy who goes behind enemy lines dressed as a woman. She was on Broadway doing, singing her own songs in drag and was hugely popular. And so anyone that says drag is sort of a new phenomenon is really speaking on truth. There's a popular meme going around now that says,

you know, that you've always been entertained by drag. And then they show, of course, Tutsi and Buzon Buddies and some like in hot. Every movie that we've ever seen in the 20th century with drag in it. And so, like you can't say, oh my god, these drag queens are so dangerous when you've been laughing at them for 100 years plus. Channing, filling some of the gaps there, like in that old school sense, because, you know, I know there was also a time where women weren't allowed to perform could you believe that women wasn't allowed at a time to do a thing and men had to take on the roles of women in theater because we just we don't know where to find any women actors I guess I'll put

on some lipstick. Absolutely so one of the things that most people don't realize is that the way we use the term term term term term term term term trime trime trime the the the the the the the the the the the tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. their. the the the the their. their. the the their. the the th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the. the. the. the. the. the. to to to to the. th. to. one of the things that most people don't realize is that the way we use the term drag today is very loose. We're thinking, as Frank pointed out, in binary terms, a man dressing as a woman, woman dressing as a man. And it's sort of applied indiscriminately, whether we're talking about, as Frank pointed out, Shakespearean theater or Kabuki, we're talking, we're calling it drag. When those are actually separate traditions, and it's important, I think, to specify the specific differences between those cultural traditions. There's actually an American tradition of drag, which does go back to the culture of African-Americans, formerly enslaved African-Americans in Washington, D.C. in the 1880s. And from that point to today, we can trace the origin of the ballroom culture and voging and all the way to repulse drag race. It sort of has maintained the same basic format

in terms of basically a competition where queer black people meet and celebrate celebrate each other and compete for the prize. But back then, the first drag queen was named William Dorsey Swan. And in the culture of D.C. after the Civil War, there was this tradition of celebrating freedom, of course. You're now free, you're no longer enslaved, celebrates your life.

Turn up, yeah, and how they turned up. Absolutely. And in that period of time, one of the big ways it celebrated was to have a parade called Emancipation Day. The Emancipation Day in D.C. There were these beautiful women who would essentially wear these usually flower covered dresses or crowns, and they'd be part of the parade. They'd represent the embodiment,

the personification of liberty for black people. And they were called queens. The first drag queen, William Dorsey Swan, actually dubs himself the first drag queen because the balls were already being called drag balls or drag dances or just drags. But he decided to say, I am the queen of this ball. So actually, adopting the term queen is a way of connecting the sort of celebration

of queerness with emancipation from enslavement. It's actually, there's always been this connection. It's in the United States context between African-American emancipation and drag, which is not something that people talk about. So that's something that I like to point out, because as we know to this day, there's lots of discussion about drag queens misappropriating or arrogating to themselves, you know,

various aspects of black culture or black women's expression. And actually, that's been, that's been dating back over 100 years. You've cracked a can on something that I want to go back to for a second, because I want to talk about some of the common misconceptions and stereotypes about drag that you wish layman like myself were a little more informed on. And Frank, I want to get your answer on this as well. But first, let's go back to the distinction between cross-dressing and drag.

I'm from Alabama, and I worked on a side of town that was the more free willing side of Birmingham called 5 Point South. And that was my first introduction as a teenager into every other culture from skate culture to gay culture to tattoos and nosewear. So everybody was just called a cross dresser. This is Birmingham in the 80s. There was not the level of specificity and understanding that we have now. So let's just start with cross dressing and drag and what the differences are there and then what are some of the other misconceptions you think people get wrong about the culture? I think cross-dressing

it has been a pejorative term but it is a descriptive term and it describes a sort of conception of a man taking on a woman's a woman's appearance and it actually applies to different kinds of cross-dressing. It applies to African traditions and Kabuki and Shakespearean theater. All those really could be described as cross-dressing. Whereas drag is more, at least now it's more of a celebration of gender expression and I think breaking out of gender roles, right? I think if you look at, for example, Shakespearean theater, for whatever reason they didn't have women for the roles, it wasn't about, it wasn't a decision based on self-expression or desire

to explore, explore your gender, explore ways thatthat how you want to see yourself right or how you see yourself it was more sort of there were other reasons why men were dressing as wearing dresses and so on where it's dragon is more of a celebration okay like Martin Lawrence dressing up as should nay na'a was not marty identifying with his own gender and expression it was just now I'm gonna put on a wig and some lipstick and crack some jokes at the tokes at the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the to the the the the the to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. they. they. they. they. they. they. the the the the the the the the the the they. the the the the they. the the they. the the the they. was just, now I'm going to put on a wig and some lipstick and crack some jokes. At least not, not as far as we know. But, you know, what their, you know, flip, Wilson, for people who don't know, he was the, before that the first African American comedian. And while it was done, you know, in prime time, he, Flip Wilson for people who don't know,

he was the first African-American comedian performer to have his own variety show, that was a hit. I mean, there were others who had done specials and who had done short things, but Flip was on for like four years. And his drag character, of that era, yeah. Yeah, he was friendly and a storyteller, but he was, he would would would would would would would would would would would would, thier, thier, thier, thier, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thian, thian, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, era, yeah. Yeah, he was friendly and a storyteller, but he was, he would do this character named Geraldine Jones, who had a boyfriend named Killer, but that never stopped her from flirting

with every man from, and I'm not kidding, Bill Cosby to OJ Simpson to Bing Crosby, okay? He was hugely popular, but what he did that was so different from Shene Neh was he played a character who believed she was beautiful and kind of was sexy and was sort of a feminist character. And people flipped out over that in terms of they liked it, but also because it really was different. She wore Pucci print dresses, she had great gams. She was kind of the person who influenced Ru Paul in many ways and Ru was admits that, Ru's my age and so you know I mean it was, you know, she was watching the same TV I was watching

and Flip kind of was the introduction to drag for a lot of people. What's different and what's important about him, and it goes to the misconceptions about drag, is he was not making fun of women at all. And I think that some people want to say that, oh, drag is misogynist. And some of it, when it's played, like, look how ugly I am, and every comedian is guilty of doing that at some point. But he, a lot of thage the the the the the the, the, the, the, th is the, th is the, the, the, th is the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, was the, was thi, was the, was the, was the, was thi, was thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is the, is the, is the, is the, is th is th is the, is the, is the, the, was the, was the, was thi, was thi, was thi, was thi, was the, was the the that at some point. But he, a lot of drag comes out of an appreciation for female troops and for female characteristics, but then it

exaggerates them to Jessica Rabbit proportions. You know, I mean it's if nobody really looks like Bianca del Rio, unless she's in drag too. You know, I mean, it's like, and now, Channing, as you know, you can be a cisgender woman, you can be a cisgender, you can be any, you can come out of the womb, whatever, but if you've got too much fabulous, you can be a dragon queen now and it doesn't matter, theynagree. what your plumbing looks like and thank heaven for, long as when that light goes on, you're funny and glamorous, it doesn't matter what your jump looks like. And that's kind of an exciting thing, I think.

I think that's fabulous. And I agree with Frank, that you know, performers like Flip Bolson were really important. And I think, you know, looking at that aspect of drag, like the performer aspect, it hasn't always always that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like that that that that that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's kind kind that's kind that's kind kind that's kind of that's kind of that's kind that's kind that's kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that's that's you know, looking at that aspect of drag, like the performative aspect, it hasn't always been performance for like a public audience. That's one point, which I'll get to, but the important point I think is performers, performances like Geraldine Jones, they were important because I think they were part of, you know, at least for a couple of decades of beginning of the 20th century,

when drag balls sort of became more open to the public. They were a way of showing, I think, straight, cisgender people, how fabulous you could be, you know, how fabulous a man could be wearing heels and wearing a wig and so on, that it wasn't purely about comedy, it was also about showing confidence and showing sort of just bending a little bit the expectations of gender roles. And now I think, you know, they're completely bent, which I think is a positive thing. But, but, but I think, you know, when, if you look back, for example, the 19th century balls, the balls from the 1880s, those were secret events.

Those were people getting together in each other's houses, putting on a show for each other. It was a community thing. It only really became a sort of a thing that the general public was allowed into in the 20s or so. And at that point, people were really, you know, people were interested to say that there were thousands of people would gather to see drag balls because there were such hunger for it. And I guess, you know, it's still the same way. People are hungry to see how gender can be reinterpreted and expressed in different ways that they have been taught or to to to to to to to to to thued thued in tho the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho their tho tho tho their their tho their their tho their tho thi in in in their their thi their their in in their in their in their in their their in their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. In thi. te. te. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. thea. In thea. In thin. In it's still the same way. People are hungry to see how gender can be reinterpreted and expressed in different ways that they have been taught were wrong or immoral and so on. I certainly was taught that.

I think that's what gets to why people love drag is through the artifice, you get to this tremendous truth about humanity. And you all, but it's also incredibly entertaining. It's not like a lesson in gender studies. It's sort of, or it is, but it's sort of, talk about the spoonful of sugar that makes the medicine go down. It's really entertaining and you're like, oh, wait a minute. We're not all, you know, there is, it's showing you the spectrum of gender in a way and, and you're, you know, but in a the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th.. th. It's, their, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th............................... th.. th. th. tr. tr. tr. tr. It, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, tr. It's, true. a way, and you're, you know, but in a safe way,

and not only were drag balls a safe space, but you had people like Milton Burrell, who was the, you know, he's Mr. Television. When they turned the TVs on, he was the guy that got people to buy TV, and he did drag almost every week, and he said, oh yeah, when as a kid, th, th, th so you're sort of like wait a minute so you're 12 or 15 and you're you're sneaking into drag balls you know and typically you know stealing you know as as so much entertainment is it's sort of like oh good I'll get the gig because I'm the

white guy but but I'll go learn everything you know from the black performers as so many people do and did. So when you talk about researching for your book, and Shannon, you low-key being very humble because I know a lot of that swan research that we even know now in the zeitgeis because you went to digging, all of it. All of it. All of it. All of it was that about 10, 15 years ago, you went digging. So both of you are very versed in the history of drag,

but in your research of the history of this culture, how does the black and LGBTQ plus community fit into that history? I know we talked a little bit about DC, but give me some other ways where they fit into that culture, and or if there's been erasure? Well, I think that one of the, important thing to point out is you know and just just just to pick it back from off of what Frank was saying, drag balls have been a safe place for lots of people to express themselves and to be seen and to meet each other and to make connections

and so on, but they've also been really dangerous for a lot of folks too. You know, over and over again throughout history, particularly, certainly in the early 20th century and in the 19th century, drag balls were constantly surveilled and rated by the police and people were going in jail. Oftentimes on really trumped up charges or just no charges. We just think you're a suspicious person. We're going to throw you in jail because you're a man wearing a dress. So it's the, the safety part is also, the other side of it is that it's been a really dangerous thing. People have felt a need to express themselves in this particular way.

And the authorities have always looked at it as a sort of dangerous thing. And in the, in Swan's era, one time he was arrested and thrown in jail, and the prosecutor, you know, sort of admitted in the prosecution documents, of the prosecutor admitted. Well, typically, we wouldn't, we wouldn't, and the, the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the th, th, th, the thi, thi, the thi, the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and th, and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi, thi, thi.ee.eooooooooooooooooo.eateateateateat, theat, theateat, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, you know, sort of admitted in the prosecution documents, the prosecutor admitted, well, typically we wouldn't, we wouldn't send, send, send so on to, you know, prison for what we, what we charged him with, which was keeping a disorderly house, which is something to, usually something to do with prostitution, yeah, sex work. But he said, we're trying to keep him off the streets because of his quote, evil example to their community. And, um, and essentially says, you know, because,

because he is involved with, with, uh, sex with other men. So, the authorities looked at swans drag balls. This is swan the queen of drag, swans drag balls as something that people found so alluring that they want to copy because that's why he was an evil example to the community. You're going to pollute the community. You're going to pollute the community. And that is exactly what we're seeing today with many politicians and other and other other folks, you know, protesting drag brunches and drag story time

and protesting discussions of being trans in schools. And it's a similar kind of, it's, you know, it's, it is the same kind of, you know, policing, literally policing, and also culturally policing, the ways that we express ourselves and who we are. If you don't fit into those roles, it's considered dangerous. And the straight cis people are still really scared that their kids are going to be queer like us. So then when we talk about that activism and that resistance culture within this community, Frank, let's go back 50 years ago to Stonewall in New York City and talk a little bit about that as being a bit of a pivot point in terms of drag becoming a little more mainstream or a little

more in the face of people because it merged perfectly with the emergence of drag becoming a little more mainstream or a little more in the face of people because it merged perfectly with the emergence of disco music as well. So yeah, exactly. Well, it's interesting to me because I think that I'm calling all disco. I'm just saying that you can dance to that shit no matter what your orientation is. Some good ass music. Keep going. No,. No, you can say my next book is about the history of disco, so yes, it was gay. It was. Wow. But it'll be my take on it, you know, and then Channing, you do the actual study of the stuff. I'll do the, here's the buffet of

the glitter and then you serve the entree of the meat potatoes and show them what they're really eating. Oh, oh no. Oh. Oh. Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I! Oh, I! Oh, I! Oh, I, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'll the the the the the the the, I'll the, I the, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I the, I the, I the, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the the the the the the the the the the th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the entree of the meat potatoes and show them what they're really eating. Oh no! I just make the dessert. I was gonna say it was spiced on it at least. Yes, you can do anything you want. I was gonna say that the Stonewall for people who don't, I mean more people know now than used to but there are a lot of people who still go what is that? Stonewall was the turning point where in the beginning of the gay rights movement in America and there were things before that the Black Cat and Compton's cafeteria out in California but Stonewall is the moment in 1969 where gays fall back and despite what some mainstream movies will tell you it was not the cute little white kid from the Midwest who was throwing bricks it was trans people who didn't even call themselves that and they the their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. They their. They their. They their. They their. They their. their. their. their their. They're their. They their. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's. They's........ They's...................... And............. And the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the te. And. And. And. And. And. And. And. And the. And. the. And. And. And, the. And. And, the. And, the. And the. And the. And the. And the the. And it was not the cute little white kid from the Midwest who was throwing bricks it was trans people who didn't even call themselves that and that they call themselves transvestites and activists not even trans people

really but it was people like Marsha P. Johnson Sylvia Rivera and who was the story Delavarre that was the name I was like Channing the the drag king who was of all stormy Delarbary they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were they were the the the the the their their their their their was their was their was their was their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. was their was their, that was the name. I was like Channing helped me at least the drag king who was the of all Stormy Delarvera. They were the ones who were doing it and honestly with any movement the people who have The least and most to lose at the same time are the ones who are the bravest the ones who don't fit in the same time are the ones who are the bravest. The ones who don't fit in the closet and also are like, I'm not going in there. I've seen how dark it is in

the closet. It stinks. I'm not going to be in there. But the ones who really, you know, who can't hide often tend to be the people who wouldn't hide even if they could. They tend to that personality type of, oh no, I'm not taking, I'm not a second class citizen. Look at me, I'm fabulous, you know, and they're wearing their, their look on the street. Those are the ones who often are the bravest and the toughest. And that's my, when some of, you know, with what, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, the, the, the, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, is.... the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they... they. they. they. they. the, the, the, the, I'm not, I'm not, I'm like, I will pick on the drag queen if I were, you know, that's like, you know, it's like if you're going to go, you know, I wouldn't heckle the insult comic, you know, it's a, it's sort of, they'll shish-kabb you, you know, it's sort of, it's like, it's like you think you're picking on the weak one, but it's like they could out run you, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they can out, th... th. You, th. You, th. You, th. You, th. They can out, th. You, th. You, th. You, thrown, thrown, thrown, thrown, you know, you're, you're, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you. I. I. I. You, th. You, th. You, th. You. I. I, th. I, th. I, th. th. I, th. I, th. th. th. th. th. th. I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, they're, they're, they're, th crap out of you with it. You know, they, these are tough people. And yet they look so glamorous and so beautiful while they're doing it. But I think that that was what happened at Stonewall was the ones throwing the bricks at first were, and then forming a kickline. Is that, and I'm gonna use the word gay, the way I like to use it, as if it, as if it, as if it, as if it, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, as if it, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, the greatest, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. threat, threat, threat, threat. threat, threat, that, that, threat, that, that, that, that, was. that was. that was. that was, that was, that was, that's was, that's, that's, that's, say. What's the gayest? They formed a kickline in the street.

So they're doing a rockhead number against the police. That is the gayest thing you can possibly do. And yet it's sort of like, the number, it's not only gorgeous legs, that's like 20 middle fingers. You know, I mean, it's just, it is the ultimate. It's like, oh, you want us to be gay. They would have rather them thrown a brick. The police would have rather the brick be thrown at the. Because how do you react to that? If you're sort of like, oh yeah, you're gonna,

we're gonna get arrested. But well, if I go, I'm gonna at least look good doing it. And then you start, I mean, drag today is leading the cultural conversation. But I honestly, the Republicans want to shut it down and the proud voice, I sort of like, you know who you're taking on? It's like, these people, these are not mincing F words, you know, I mean, they're, these queens will kick your clock, you know, I mean, they know how to do it because they've been threatened from the moment they came out of the closet or emerge from the womb perhaps. So when we talk about the middle fingers to the authorities then versus the middle fingers

to politicians now and a lot of the policies that are starting to be passed to suppress this type of culture, I don't think you're going to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able the their the the the the type of culture, I don't think you're going to be able to legislate out anything that has real influence on society. Talk to me a little bit, and Channin, I'll start with you, talk to me a little bit about the influence that drag has had on beauty and fashion. I already talked to Bob about television, but let's talk about pop culture and just general beauty in fashion and the way drag has influenced that. Even music, hell.

You know, the first thought that I had when you ask the question is, is Beyonce, of course, you know, in her latest album renaissance. There are many references to balls and to, you know, the category is and tens across the board. And if you're listening to the lyrics of the songs, like Alien Superstar and like Heat it. And so it sort of shows that like an artist at that level is engaging with drag culture, history of drag culture and as well as I think I think drag as a influence on beauty has just made it more okay to experiment with makeup, with different forms of attire for all people. Right. It's made it okay for men to be a little more fem and more fabulous and it's made it okay for women to be much more fabulous if they want. Is drag the reason why I have like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to, to, like, like, like, like, like, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, like, to, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to, like, to, to, to, to, to, to, to it okay for women to be much more fabulous if they want.

Is drag the reason why I have like be wearing avocado mask at night some nights? So I'm like is that the reason I know the word exfoliate? You could probably do a thesis drawing the line between those. When Rupal got the Mac cosmetics gig in the early 90s, that was shocking to a lot of people. A lot of this stuff was shocking back. Now it takes a lot to shock anybody. But back in the day when Rupal is suddenly like, oh wait, look, you know what I'm going to be the spokes model for Viva Glou and she looked gorgeous, you know. The drag bus has left, you you just got to get on it. the, in it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it. In it, in it, in it, in it, in it, in it, in it, in it, in it, in it, in the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, in their, in their, in their, in their, in their, in their, in their, in going to be the spokesmodel for Viva Glow, and she looked gorgeous, you know. The drag bus has left. You just got to get on it. To stand in the way or try to fight it will ultimately be unsuccessful. And it's also short-sighted because it's sort of, do you, you really,

the upsetting thing to me when people protest drag beat Story Hour is like, so that those little kids that feel different for whatever reason and like Sparkle, whatever their gender, they don't get the same treat, they don't get to be happy, they don't get to see someone in a book. They don't, you know, it's very upsetting to me to see lives being threatened, drag lives and gay live, queer lives, being threatened drag lives and gay live queer lives being threatened when it's

preposter you know if drag beans are groomers it's like well they're not groomers they're hairstyles they're makeup artists they're not they're not grumers in the in the pedophile sense they're groomers and that's it's your nails will look fabulous by the end of it you know I mean get it's just a dumb argument to say they're groomers it's like like like like like that's like th you th you that's like th you that's that's th you that's th I that's th I th I th I th I th I th th th th th th th th the th the the the the the the the the the the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the- the the th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the threate threate threaten threaten threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened threatened th stupid. It's just a dumb argument to say they're groomers. It's like, yeah, that's why people do drag. It's like, no, that's why clowns become clowns and they're not you at a cross-based, and then for ego or whatever clowns do.

You know, it's, it's, um, those are two different people. I think queer folks are still a minority, but we're just a powerful, influential minority because of how badass we are. You know, I always say in 1969, it was so all happened. It was sort of a surprise to people that suddenly that queer folks could fight back. And the reality is, there was all kinds of unseen, invisible work that had to get done to build a community that felt confident enough to fight back. So there was decades of work behind that decision to fight back on that day.

And now we've had another 50 years of organizing, at the point where we're like, there's no way, we're not, we're not going back in the closet. We're not going to go to go to go back to go back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back back.. to go back back back. to go back back. to go back. to go back back. to to to to to to to to go to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to that. that. that. that. that that that that that that that that that the that that thi. that thi. that thi. that that that thi. the thi. to to to to to to to to of organizing to the point where we're like, there's no way, we're not going back in the closet, we're not going to go back backwards. So yes, they're protesting, but we're not only a cultural force, we're just too, I think, too powerful to organize a community now. It doesn't make sense. It's irrational to go against us. What do you all think the future of drag looks like? Where does this go?

Because if this small ball, this pebble was rolling down the hill and now it's a big boulder? Where does this go next? How soon to the drag president is what I'm asking for. Oh, that's a great one. We have to give Rudy do we have to give Rudy Giuliani credit for dressing in drag as Ruggia. I hope no I don't know because he was an ugly drag thing. That was an ugly drag queen. His mask would be running that boy is from everywhere. It's hard to get masquare out here, but he managed to do it.

I think it's going to look like just this amazing buffet of talent. I think that it's going to come down to how good are you at it, not what, you know, whether your dress is a man or a woman or a horror icon where you're covered in blood or you're covered in sequence. I think it can be anything. I think it's drag kids who are so cool with themselves at eight or ten that they're dressing in drag and performing, not just, oh, mommy, I feel different, but they're really like, oh, I'm going to be fierce and go do this. and, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, th, th, th. th. thi, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, th.. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, the, theeeeeeean, thin, thean, thean, thean, thean, thin, the. I the, the, I feel different, but they're really like, oh, I'm gonna be fierce

and go do this, and you know, the thing that the moment in my life when I realized stuff was changing was when I was speaking to a group of young people, and I said, well, I came out when I was 16, in 1978, and the kid said, why did you wait so long? And I was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th.. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, the, the, thi, th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the moment, the, the moment, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th.... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, that, that, that, that, that, the moment, the moment, the moment, the moment, the moment, the moment, the moment, the moment, the moment, the moment, the kids said, why did you wait so long? And I was like, oh my God, things have really changed. 16, I was like in the advanced placement program for gay and in the late 70s.

It was like, you know, you know, you know, you're gay or I found it forever, of course I'm a gay, you know, and I think the future of drag is, is going to be gorgeous and fabulous and diverse. That's one of the best things about drag too. I didn't say this before. You know, people are always saying we have to, in entertainment, we have to strive for diversity. With drag, all you have to do is tell the true. If you tell you know, and maybe it's that way with everything,

but if you just show who was doing cool stuff, you don't have to go looking for diversity because it's all there in your face. It's gorgeous. It's like something everybody was participating in their own wonderful way. So it's not forced in any way. Just get out there and tell the truth and you'll have people of every background and color and creed and sequin type, you know, do what their things? What's it look, to the other things. Jenny, what's it look like to you? I think drag is a huge factor in what will become a complete transformation of how we think about sex and gender in the future.

But how we talk about sex and gender, how we think about it has already completely changed, right? But in the future it will be so core to who we are to, to the to the theat, to be to be to be to be to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to be to to to to to to to to to be to be to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the trade.. trade. trade. trade. the trade. the the the the the the the trade. the the the trade. the trade. trade. the trade. toe. toe. toe. trade gender, how we think about it, it has already completely changed, right? But in the future it will be so core to who we are to talk about diversity of being non-binary or trans or the diversity of gender expression. All those, you know, we'll have new words for it because the words always change, right? I think, but, but it will be completely transformed. One of the things I think that most most, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the future, thi, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the future, the the future, the future, the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, thoooooo, thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, will will be, their, their, their, the words always change, right? I think, but it will be completely transformed. One of the things I think that most people sort of don't think about it or realize is like, it's not just that they used to be old words and now we have cool words. Like, in Swan's time, it was you know, you were a queen or you weren't, it was about whether you were participating in balls or not, whether you were winning the balls, whether you were a queen. And then later you were, you know, other scholars talk about like whether you were a fairy or a pansy, and then sort of

after World War II it became this homosexual, heterosexual splicing, and now we're, you know, now we're much more diverse in terms of being pan or fluid and everybody is sort of becoming more exactly. Non-binary, transgender, queer, gender fluid. We have so many more options, and I think in the future, we will either have many more options than that or it will just be so part of who we are that it becomes irrelevant in its sort of way. And it's important, I think, just to realize that we're strong enough to get through this, and we will. And no matter what they do, all of the way we think about our gender, and our sexuality will completely transform. Well, I hope that the future drag does not include more the ignorance and laws and hatred that your community has been dealing with. The two of you are on the spearhead of educating dumb motherfuckers on what the right things

are and how to be more knowledgeable citizens. I thank you, Channon. I thank you, Frank. And also, shout out to Bob for coming on earlier. That's all the time we have for today. Play my theme music. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcast. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.