The Daily Show: Ears Edition - The Interviews | Danielle Brooks, Colin Kaepernick, Giri Nathan

Episode Date: September 20, 2026

Check out all of this week's great guests in one place. Danielle Brooks joins Josh Johnson to talk about her new film, “If I Go Will They Miss Me,” where she plays Lozita, a mother caught between a son who worships his father like a God and a dad who can’t see himself that way. Brooks talks about shooting on-location in Watts, honoring the real woman her character is inspired by, and what motherhood has taught her about the roles she takes. Super Bowl quarterback, civil rights activist, and bestselling author Colin Kaepernick joins Josh Johnson to discuss his new memoir, "The Perilous Fight." They reflect on the 10-year anniversary of Kaepernick's kneeling during the national anthem to protest racial injustice and police brutality, the idea that activism doesn't need to be earned, it's required for society to work, and a reframing of risk assessment in activism that asks, "What do we risk if we don't take action?" Defector Media staff writer & cofounder and bestselling author, Giri Nathan, sits down with Michael Kosta to discuss his book “Changeover: A Young Rivalry and a New Era of Men's Tennis," about the rise and rivalry of pro tennis players Carlos Alcaraz and Jannik Sinner. The two tennis superfans review this year’s U.S. Open, discussing Honey Deuce towers, influencer drama, and both the men’s and women’s finals. Plus, how the USTA can grow tennis fandom while preserving the sport’s spectacle and tradition. -- The Daily Show airs weeknights at 11/10c on Comedy Central. Stream full episodes on Paramount+ Follow TDS: YouTube, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's Shopify.com. You're listening to Comedy Central. My guest tonight is an Oscar-nominated actor and Grammy Award winner who produce and stars in the new film if I go, will they miss me? Please welcome, Danielle Brooks. It's so warm.

Hey, y'all. Oh, it's for you. What I'm just? How are you? I'm wonderful. Thanks for having me. Thank you for joining me. I've been very excited to see you. And congratulations on the film.

Thank you. Thank you. Can you, without giving too much away? Okay, I'll try. Can you give us a little bit of what the film's about? Yes. The impetus we're creating all of it? Yes.

First of all, if you are a cinema lover, you are going to love this film. It is so beautifully done by a guy named Walter Thompson Hernandez. And it is about a son who wants to connect with his father who just came out of prison. And the thing is, he's also obsessed with Greek mythology. and he grew up in Watts, and he sees his father as a god, but his father doesn't see himself that way. And so they're having trouble connecting, and I play the mom, Lozita, who I don't want to give anything away,

but has a huge part in what happens later in the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's also filmed in Watts. Yes, we filmed it in Watts, y'all. Compton. I'm not from Compton. I'm from South Carolina. But anyway, yeah, we shot it there, but it's very rare that you actually get to shoot where it's set.

And so we were outside, no trailers. You know, we just had a cooler for our crafty and in a cardboard box. Like, we was really out here thugging it, you know? But it was so cool because in the movie, he invited the community to be in the movie. And we had to get a mayor. So when I say that, there's a guy in the neighborhood who's like the mayor. He's the one that if somebody's playing their music too loud, he's the one to be like, hey, can you turn that down for $20?

Yeah. So, yeah, he helped us out tremendously. That's awesome. And do you find that in playing these roles, you know, because you're a mom now and everything, in playing these roles, does it have any sort of reflection on it? on like your parenting when you look at what someone in a completely different situation is dealing with, like one of your characters and everything.

Yeah. Does it end up putting that bit of a shade, like in preparation? Like, you know what you would do as a mother in these scenarios, and then because of a script, you may have to do something different than what's your natural reaction. Yeah. I think that's the beautiful part about what we do.

It allows us to reflect on our behaviors. You know, we're all out here trying to do the best that we can. And now that I am a mother, I've always had maternal instincts and, you know, treat my baby like a baby cub and I hold her close to me. But now I hold her even more close. And I make sure that I speak life into her. But not only do I do that, it's all about your actions, too. You know, our kids soak up everything that we do. And I think sometimes we think it's about what we say, but we truly have to walk the walk to show them how to be.

incredible human beings, you know. So I'm very grateful that I got to play Lozita. I think she's a character that I've never done before. Like, she's very quiet and spirit, you know. She says a lot without saying much. But there's just something so special because I feel like there's a, there's not really been a character like her that I've seen in neighborhoods like this. So I'm excited to, and she was based on a real person, you know,

who passed away from breast cancer. her a few years ago. So I'm excited to honor her in this way. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And do you find that as you, you know, obviously you're working so much and as you play these different characters that there's a little bit of a piece of it that you take with you?

You know, I'm so interested in how actors can sort of be anybody. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. I love it. And then it does seem though that the people who are really dedicated to it as craft, like, can shed off of that thing. But sometimes people can't.

Don't know how to shake it off. Yeah, they've gone so deep into the thing. Has that ever happened to you before? Thank God, no. Thank God. Because it can really be deep for some people. I think because I'm a trained actor, and that's something that they taught us how to shed that off,

I've been able to do because I have played characters that go really deep, like Sophia, you know, in the movie and on Broadway, spending a year with the character that's been abused, you can start to feel that way. But then also, like, there was a beautiful song that she had, hell no. And every night I got to say hell no to my fears and things that I felt like were holding me back.

So I think every character gives you a gift. I think sometimes we don't, like, sometimes I don't want to share what that gift is, but, you know, I definitely feel like she's been such a blessing for me. Yeah. If you are willing, is there... Talk to me?

Is there something in the gift of playing this character that you've really got out of it that it's left you with? I think that it's just reminded me that I am a good mom, number one, but like it really has. And it's challenged me to be a better one. Yeah, because I love that baby girl with all my heart, you know what I'm saying? And I think the beautiful part of what we do and what this story does, it's a reflection. It reminds us to look at ourselves in the mirror and, like, really come to terms with what is really that reflection.

I think sometimes we see ourselves, but we don't see ourselves. It's dirty. You know, there's water spots on that mirror. But what is it to really wipe it away and really see who you are at the court and what you're putting out into the world? So I think that's part of what I've, every time I watch this film, Josh, there's another, like, another layer that comes every time. So I'm excited for the world to see it.

I think it's healing work. I think it's something that will change you as a person. And it's so damn good. Like, truly, like, the music, John Batiste got in there, you know, and did a song, This Bitter Earth. It was just, it's so good. Marion Anderson's music is in this piece. Like, it's so... Walter Thompson-Hernandez, you need to know his name, y'all.

He's that next director, I promise you. And J.L. Fons is a phenomenal actor. He's in lanterns and P. Valley. And he's one of the next Denzel's. Okay? So get with it. Yeah. And speaking on reflection, because, you know,

we're obviously talking about your character, talking about your perspective, working on the movie and everything. There's a lot to be said about fatherhood. of the movie as well. And I guess, I don't know, a bunch of my friends are becoming parents and everything. And so I just see a thing where everyone that cares

about being a good parent is pretty hard on themselves and like constantly question themselves and everything. But I find that outside looking in, especially watching people become mothers, become fathers and everything, that there's just so much external pressure on moms. with dads, it's sort of like, are you there or not? Do you know what, do you know, I mean?

Like, it has that element. And then within the movie, it's like how to be present as a father. Like, do you think that the movie is speaking to motherhood or fatherhood one more than the other? No, I think it's equal. You know, just speaking to that, you know, I don't think the point of the narrative is to say that fathers are absent, you know, in certain things. that is a part of this movie, but I think the beauty is that you see this other character,

his best friend played by Miles Bullock, who has his own son, and he speaks life into his son, and he tells, you know, big aunt, like, bro, you got to get it together. So it was another brother who has cared and loved on his son, pouring into him and saying,

hey, man, you got to, and I just thought that was a beautiful transaction because most of the time in these movies it's the female woman character coming in and saying, hey, you know, you got to do better, you know, or that older, wiser person coming in and say, but the fact that his peer, that another man of color was the one to say,

like, you got to do better and hold him accountable. I think it was a beautiful thing. I think that the love and care and intention that you put in the film comes through in the way that you speak about the film. And I think it's going to absolutely come through in everyone seeing your performance. I'm very excited for y'all to see it.

One more time for Danielle Boyd, thank you so much. It's a Super Bowl quarterback, civil rights activist, and best-selling author whose new memoirs called The Periless Fight. Please welcome Colin Kaepernan. Thank you so much for coming. Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, you're so tall. Even as I was stepping down, I was like I shouldn't have stepped down. What I like about us sitting is that it gives us at least the illusion of the same height.

You know? Where I died now. Yeah, yeah. My chair is very high. We actually, almost in passing, kind of met once. I know you wouldn't remember this, but basically years ago, this would have been like 2019 or something. Okay. We were passing each other in an airport, and we both had afros, and I pointed to mine, and you were very nice about it.

You were like, mm-hmm. I didn't know what to say to you, so then I just panicked, and I was like, oh, And then you were like, yeah, buddy. What, twins? Yeah, twins? Thank you so much for joining me. Oh, I'm happy to be here. And big fan.

Really? Of course. That is wild. Of course. That's wild. Yeah, I'm a big fan of you. Oh, well, thank you. What a coincidence.

I have so many questions for you. I guess one of the main ones is it's now 10 years since you first took a knee. And it doesn't seem like America's better. Do you know what I mean? Like, how are you feeling now when you look around now? Feels like a little bit like an episode of the Twilight Zone. Yeah.

Like it, this doesn't feel like reality. Yeah. Because after 10 years, there's been progress in some areas. But there's also, we're seeing corruption at a level that feels. like a fantasy. Yeah, it's like cartoonish. It is cartoonish. So I think those components

make you think about like what should we be doing, how we actually advance from here. I will say the part that gives me hope is while we're seeing the administration and the corporate side do wild things, what we're seeing more on the ground is people being fed up with it

and starting to push back harder and harder. And that gives me hope I think also when people think of activism, I think a lot of it can feel like something that only people with access or like people who are affluent. I think sometimes we almost feel like activism is in the same place as philanthropy where I can do that when I get to a different place in my life.

And I think you've worked with so many people who are activists right now. Like when you think of an activist, you usually think of someone who is just doing that thing. And I think rarely we acknowledge that activists usually have a multitude of jobs. They have their day job, they have their activism, they're a parent, you know. And I was wondering if you could speak to some of the people that you've been around or worked with who have really inspired you, who are those everyday people with like a list of responsibilities

on top of the activism they're trying to do. Yeah. I mean, one that I constantly bring up right here in New York is Kevin Livingston. He's a phenomenal father. He's a great friend. He's doing work, but he's also doing work with youth. He's going to Rikers. But he shows up every day.

And he's not the person that's, hey, I'll wait until I get to a better place. It was, no, we have to address the issues in our community now. I think about the work that the Lower East Side Girls Club is doing. phenomenal organization. They have their jobs, they have their work that they're doing, but they still show up for the community on a consistent basis. And what I think that speaks to is it's not a space of, hey, I have to get to a certain place

to be involved. The reality is we all have to be involved, and that's how society works, and that's how it should be working, and we have to push the bounds in fighting for each other and making sure we're building a society that works for everyone. Yeah, yeah. I absolutely agree because I think that whether people like it or not, you're already involved. It's just about what you do about it, you know?

Like if you live in this country, if you're a member of any group, you are already involved with whatever the issues are of that group. And one of the things that you talk about in the book is almost, almost it feels like in equal parts. You talk about football and the activism, you know? And that's one thing that made me ask the question about when you have that sort of like, hybrid career of activism on top of something else. And you have a real love for football. You have a real passion for it as a sport. And you talk about being on a team

and the type of character building you get from being on a team and everything. And it made me wish I could play. I'll tell you right now. It made me, like, even as you were writing about it, I was like, man, if I could just handle a tackle, I would be a problem, you know? See, we'll get you in as a slot receiver. That would be a great place.

To receive the ball? Yeah. That, no, look, I'm going to tell you right now, I got you on waters. Waters, I got the team cover. But I find so interesting in here that when people read the book, they might think that the book through and through is just about the time in which you are taking the knee and your fight with the NFL and your fight as a whole. And what's actually happening, you know, without giving anything away,

is that there are a lot of parts of the book that really talk about the lead-up. And not just the lead-up as in maybe tensions or something, like the actual lead-up as in your career as a player. And what I really like about that is that oftentimes when a story is told, you end up just seeing the nugget that's like the headline. Yeah. And then there's so much that leads up to it, because I think that in order to understand what someone's sacrificing, you have to understand

how much they have and how much they love the thing that they're sacrificing. Do you think that in light of everything that's happened, that the stakes of the sacrifice would be the same for you? Like, let's say you could go back in time. Are there things that you feel like, would I even have talked to this person or because I know now these things

maybe wouldn't go differently, would I make some of the same moves? Or do you feel like everything in the lead-up was pretty perfect for the journey? If I went back and had to do it over again, there's two things that come in mind as far as how it would have approached it. One, if I knew on the other side of the protest,

how big it would become, I would have done so much more organizing than advance. Sure, sure. Because you don't know what's on the other side of it. Yes. But you have your conviction, you have your beliefs, and you know you have to take action.

So I would have done that to make sure that I had all the pieces in place to be successful. Yeah. The other part that I go back and forth on is because there was a lot of misinformation, there was a lot of attacks, oftentimes I've tried to keep the focus on here's the issue we're trying to address and in large part ignored a lot of the attacks.

I think at times that could cause some confusion or blurring of lines or creating a fog and I think about should I have just gone at people and gone head on? And I still don't think that would be the right move, but I do think I think about that and what would be on the other side of it if I did take that approach. I hear you because I think what's important about noticing that is that almost all the activism that we that we look to for inspiration or that that really brought about some major changes wasn't planned perfectly. It was it was literally like you said just people being fed up, you know?

Because yeah, I mean if you would have known how big of an impact it would have happened. You might take you two knees. You might be like a bow. You know? I'm also, I'm curious because I am so truly on the outside of the world of professional, you know, football and professional sports in general. For people who don't know, because I'm only barely familiar now, can you tell us what the combine is? So I would say, as I thought about the combine and coming on here, I was like, Josh is going to have a run of skits after this. The combine is like your final stepping stone before you get drafted into the NFL.

So that's like almost your final interview process. What everyone sees is the 40-yard dash, the vertical jump, some of the skill drills on the but there's three days before that. And that's where you're getting interviewed. They're doing your medical exams. But as part of that, you walk across stage in your draws. And that's one of the things they ask you to do. It's like, everybody lined up, like, strip down,

it's time to walk across. For who? For the scouts, for the organizations. Like that, that's part of the prize. See, this is why I knew the skits were going to be coming after. And so you do the walk and then what else? What are some of the other? So there's that.

And then part of the interviews, the questions that they'll ask you are often have nothing to do with your ability to go out and play football. So questions that have been asked at the combine are, are you gay? is your mom a prostitute? After 2016, it was, how do you feel about Colin Kaepernick? So the questions are more so to get insight into, like, what you're willing to tolerate, and in many ways, how malleable are you? Like, will you be obedient?

Will you fall in line? And that's what the first three days of the combine really feels like is how far it we push you and will you just follow the directions we tell you to do of what we tell you to do geez and so then yeah and then yeah nobody sees that other part now all that that is all behind the scenes what gets put on camera is oh did you see that 40 yard dash time yeah you see that vertical jump like looks amazing this is like the time of your life yeah but you walk into and you're like all right this is the final interview before i reach my dream. And this is going to decide

if I get drafted in the first round or the seventh round or not at all. So as a player, you're like, well, if you tell me I have to jump through these hoops to get to my dream and this is the final interview, players look around and they're like, yeah, this

is weird and I don't know why we have to do this, but like my dream's right there. Yeah. So you go and you chase your dream. But when you talk to players in retrospect, most of the combine has nothing to do with your ability to actually go out on the field and play. Yeah. I mean, this is just my opinion, but I really feel like the only people who should own teams are the people that played. You know what I mean? Because when you think about it, it's like

it's weird to kind of have this owner that says, tiny man. And he's like, why aren't all of you faster? It's like, that feels odd. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. When it comes to your memoir, do you feel like there is a takeaway that you really want people to have from having read it that is maybe not so much on the service?

Like, someone will buy this book and think, I'm going to learn about Colin, obviously. But is there something else embedded in it that you feel like is something that you really put in there with intent, even if you didn't say the words exactly? Yeah, the part that I hope people walk away with is that every one of us can have a significant impact. And we have the agency and opportunity to go out and do that.

But it's that impact doesn't live in like a big moment. It lives in all the little decisions you make day to day, how you show up, how you're engaging, people, what you allow to slide and what you don't. All of those decisions become opportunities to be able to improve, to be able to make people around you better, and ultimately build to moments that may have an impact that become significant. So I hope people walk away feeling that sense of power and agency

and have an understanding of how they can get there. Yeah, that makes sense, because I think one of the main reasons, that people don't necessarily get involved on top of a misunderstanding of how much time something will take or if they are up to the challenge because I think a lot of people get thrust in an activist position almost in a way of like a movie where it's like this was just the person that was like we're not going to take it anymore and then and then everybody else is like yeah we like just behind them yeah I mean and and I think that the other fear besides like not being able to meet the moment that a lot of people have is what it'll cost.

Yeah. And I guess I'm curious on your end, like, what would you say to people who have that fear that is so purely about what the cost will be versus maybe what the outcome will be? Yeah. I think we have to reframe the risk assessment. And oftentimes it's what do I have to lose? But there's also the question of what do we have to gain? and within that risk, the opportunity for that outcome, to your point, that is significant. And in many ways, the parallel of that risk is, while there may be personal risk in this, what is the risk to the rest of our community if we don't take action? Does that mean another person doesn't make it home?

Does that mean another person doesn't have health care? Another person's incarcerated. another person isn't able to put food on the table. All of those become risks of inaction. So I think taking it from that perspective and that standpoint allows you to go out and say, well, I don't want that risk. I'm not accepted of that. So I'm going to go take action against it.

Now on the personal side, this is where I think the collective action becomes important. To your point, if everybody steps back, then it's like, oh, well, you did this. so we can isolate you. If everybody steps up, then it becomes, well, we can't single anybody out. So the risk becomes drastically less because they can't target everybody. So I think that's how movements are built.

That's how we should be thinking about action, but also how we think about the risk assessment within it. Yeah. I'm not going to ask you to name any names, unless you want to. But it's been 10 years. And in that 10 years, so much has happened. I'm curious on your end, if there are people who, if we're talking within the league or just that you know professionally,

that had a viewpoint or a stance initially that have surprised you or maybe people where things have come full circle. Because I just look at your sacrifice could be seen, like you said, as just yours. but the pressure is still the pressure cooker that all of you are or were under. And so I'm wondering if there's any instance of someone where you had a conversation years later that you found moved you from maybe where they were initially. I'll say I've seen this a little bit on both sides of it. There are conversations that I had early on. that like oh I'm I'm supporting and I want to be with you on this that later

came around and we're working counter to us and that was that was a learning process and experience and oftentimes that became that came out came about because of the opportunities that we're put in front of them that hey if we get you to do these things like it'll be financial beneficial for you and we see people sway there. On the flip side, this is this is probably one of the areas that I did not expect. As I've gone around the country, there have been more and more people, say primarily southern states, that would come up and be like, I initially hated you, but I've seen what you've been doing and I've had more

conversations and coming out the other side like I was wrong and I was wrong about you and what you were trying to accomplish and seeing people swing like that. So it's been interesting to see that dynamic play out. And then the final piece, I've also seen people that have just been steadfast the entire time. And the one that immediately comes to mind is Eric Reed, who was the first one to take a knee with me, continued protesting after I was blackball. His last season, he went out and set two franchise records for the Carolina Panthers and was cut and never saw the field again. So I've seen full range of spectrum of people going from supporters to working against us, people who initially were counter to us, coming around and seeing the light. And then also people like Eric who have been steadfast the entire time, even at personal expense.

I think all of this, I think whether it's your activism or just, you know, what you have as a legacy, as a player, everything that you put into the book, I think it shines through everything that you do. And so I'm so thankful for you to be here with us and everything. Thank you so much. The earliest fight is available now. Colin Kaepernan. And a bestselling author of Changeover, a young rivalry and new era of men's tennis. Please welcome Giddy Nathan. These are big tennis fans.

Sounds like it. Yes, they are. You wrote in Defector, your blog, about the state of the U.S. Open is the state of us. Yeah. We're in New York City. U.S. Open is one of the biggest tennis events in the world. What do you mean by that? So tennis is really hot right now.

Tennis as a spectacle is really hot. I don't know if that means tennis as a sport is very hot. Right. You feel the difference between those two things when you go to the U.S. Open. It's been kind of bubbling up in the last few years, I think kind of post-COVID. thing, but the sense that so many people are at the tournament just to hang out, get drunk, like create content of one kind and another and then go home has never been more overwhelming. And I don't know how much of that is the tournament's fault. I don't know how much of it is

specific to tennis. It's just like kind of how people act in public spaces these days, which is a little bit disturbing to confront because, you know, you've been in tennis your whole life. I've been going to this tournament for 20 years, and it used to just be for kind of hardcores. And I've always had a bit of a scene to it. You know, Anna Wintor is there every night, but now it's really full-on overrun by people looking for something. What are some of those examples? I mean, I think I see them.

You know, last year I was watching Yonik's Center play. I think he was the number one C, number one player in the world, and he had to stop his match because a bunch of Wall Street guys had their back to the court taking photos. And I go, what other sporting event or Broadway play would you have your back to the athletes? But what are some other examples? No, it's crazy because a lot of it has to do with just like indifference to the thing you're supposedly there to see, right? So you have people standing up in the front row, turning their back, recording content. You have, I think during Naomi Osaka is one of her early matches.

They had influencers blasting the ring lights and doing dances in the middle of the point. So the umpire had to be like, please do not do this. Do that? Yep. And it's various little things here and there. I was watching a match with pretty two fairly obscure players, and you got a guy who's almost certainly gambling on the match yelling out, you suck right before the guy serves every time. So I don't think Tristan Schoolcade has haters out there.

I think this guy's just bet on the match. Right. Well, yeah, I mean, that is interesting because how much of that falls on, the U.S. Open wants to grow the game. Yeah. They want, I mean, ticket sales are crazy. Yeah. It's packed every time.

Yeah. But maybe they could do a better job at educating the new spectator. We can't turn people away from the sport. No, they're unequivocally succeeding in getting more people interested in tennis. The trick is that tennis has a little bit of decorum to it. And it seems like hoity tooty from the outside, like, why do I have to buy into this?

But as you know, once you actually do, and you sit there and let the crowd get silent, it's almost like live theater. Like it takes on a whole new level of enjoyment. You hear the sneaker sounds, you hear the ball. And all of that is lost when you just have a bunch of people filing into a stadium and carrying on small talk or networking talk.

You feel like you're in a cafeteria. Just like, this is not the spectacle. Yeah, and it is frustrating if you tennis purists and you love it. And then when you go to Wimbledon or you go to the other tournaments. Like the temple of the sport. It's silent.

And I don't want to turn people away from the sport, but I wonder what they can do. What do you love about the U.S. Open? Yeah, I mean, it still is, for all the issues it does have, like the tennis is still extremely engrossing. It's insane. If you've never had a chance to watch this tennis up close, just go to the tournament, go to the outer courts,

see the speed and power that these players have. And it is totally illegible from the TV screen. You really have to go see it. And that's what I tell people, like, don't worry about seeing Serena, seeing Carlos, all the big names. Just go to a court you can get close to and watch them. Even practice, it's phenomenal. I mean, I was trapped in an Adrian Mannerino versus...

That's a funky player. Alexander Bublich. court 12, and I'm like, I've been here for four hours and 50 minutes. Yeah. But it's engrossing, like you said. Yeah. And those outer courts, in a way,

almost have a better decorum. Yeah, they're self-selecting in a way. So, like, if you're there, you really wanted to be there. And especially when the day session turns in the night session, you've got people who've been soaking up to tennis for six or seven hours and they just can't get enough. Like, that's actually, for all the issues you might get in the big stadiums, the outer courts are about as pure as fan experience.

I saw a lot of people this year stacking their honey-duce cups. Yeah, I mean, that's like, and if you don't know what a honey-duce is. Yeah, centipede thing. It's a $23 vodka drink. And, oh, yeah, there it is. I mean, people just stack them. And this guy is shit-faced screaming at Karen Hatchenoff on Matchpoint. And I'm going, is this what the U.S. Open wants is they sold them a lot of drinks.

Right. They made money off him. They made money off this guy. But what's the quality of engagement with tennis? Let's talk about the finals and who won the tournaments. women's final, very interesting. Elena Rabakana took the number one ranking in the world and then beat the person who she took it from,

Arena Sabalanka. What did you notice from the women's final or the women's tournament in general? Yeah, that's my favorite rivalry in the game. I think because they are so similar just on paper, you know, very tall, very powerful players, great serves. But the actual minute-by-minute experience of watching them could not be more different.

Amazing, yeah. Because you have Rabakana, who's kind of icy, even-keled, very chill affect, and you have Arina Sabalanka, who's just a roller coaster of emotions, and it's like always two unforced errors away from complete meltdown. So it is kind of fun to ride, you know, that tightrope between brilliance and complete collapse. And for the, that contrast between those personalities is always a pleasure to watch for sure. I love watching them play because I always pretend like I'm like both of them. You know, like, oh, I'm composed and poised.

But then when Arena cracks a racket, I'm like, I get it. I can be emotional, too. Arena told the camera after the match to fuck off. Yeah. It was in her face that she said, fuck off. Yeah. And I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. She's pretty known for losing the match, you know, keeping her cool, and then walking off screen and just wrecking, liquefying her rackets off the court. So I think there's something very honest and relatable about that. And at the same time, there's something to aspire to in the total iciness of Barbacana. My daughter's six, and I always have tennis out in the house. And one thing that's great about tennis, it just goes women's men's, women's men.

You know, my daughter, and she was watching Arena Sabalanka, and I think I'd probably told her 10 times that day, speak quiet. And she goes, well, she's yelling. And I'm like, that is what's great about tennis too. My daughter is seeing a strong, powerful woman scream, tell the camera to f*** off. she's a millionaire. Yeah. It's great. No, I think it's like the reason I'm so drawn to tennis as a writer is like it's such a pure expression of personality and style. Like there's no team, there's no helmets. You're just out there. And when you're under pressure, the real you comes out. And sometimes it's ugly

and sometimes it's beautiful and sometimes it's a mix of both. I love that. I love that. The men's final, uh, Ben Sheldon, the American first Grand Slam final lost to Alexander Zverev, the German, his second of the year. Yeah. You wrote, now that I've seen this final, it changes nothing. Changes nothing. About men's tennis. Explain yourself. Because the real power dynamic

at the top of men's tennis right now involve two players who aren't in the final. So you have Yonik Sinner, who's the world number one, and you have Carlos Alcraz number two. And they've pretty much dominated every aspect of the game

for the last three seasons. They dominated this book. Yeah. I mean, you wrote a whole book about these two. Yeah, I got to keep selling them. But their absence from this summer in different parts of the summer really opened up the field for everyone else.

Kind of allowed new players to break out. Shelton was one of them. Zverev, who had been toiling for years, at age 29, got his first two slams. It really seemed like he wasn't going to get one, and now he has. But it just feels like this kind of false little sealed-off portion of the tennis season

that's not going to be relevant next year because the big dogs will be coming back. And yet, you know they're hearing this and saying, you. Yeah, for sure. Because I just won two grand slams. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he didn't have to beat Sinner or Alcaraz.

Yeah. Now, why weren't they in the tournament? So, yeah, two different reasons. Al-Qaraz had a wrist injury that took him out for four and a half months. And, you know, with tennis, wrists are pretty important. And he... And in life. Yeah.

He played it pretty conservatively. And just was like, no tennis for four and a half months. Do you feel like Ben Sheldon played the match of his life to beat Al-Karaz? Do you feel like Alcarez still isn't at his... He beat him in the quarterfinals? Yeah, he beat him in the quarterfinals. And kind of an insane match. I mean, it started at 11 p.m.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Match point was called at 344 a.m. Yeah, insanity. Who's going to work the next day? One of the things that is really cool and kind of, you know, classic about the U.S. Open is these night sessions. Yes. It comes back to bite you when every match goes to the third set,

deciding tie break, and you have world-class tennis happening at 4 a.m. It's like, who are we doing this for? But to answer a question, I think it's both. I think Ben did play the match of his life, and Carlos was a little bit lower than his average level. You talk, you know, this book is great. I recommend it to anybody who enjoys not just the sport, but rivalry in general.

You know, you tell a great story in here of when Yonik is practicing, I think it was as a junior. Yeah. And a coach thinks there's construction happening behind them. Illuminate that a little bit for me. Yeah, so this is a talent scout looking for up-and-coming players, and he's looking that way, and he hears booming, crashing sounds behind him.

He's like, surely there's some kind of construction behind me, but it's this very slender ginger, Yonik Sinner, who does not look like he should be able to create that much power on a tennis court, but it just has, like, perfect technique, transferring energy beautifully into the ball. And it is the, to this day, it's the distinctive thing about watching Sinner play. It's just like, if you have the chance to be within 10 feet of this guy smoking a tennis ball, it's just, it sounds like a gun. Yeah. It's unreal.

I remember thinking like, oh, my forehand's pretty good. And then you're like, my forehand doesn't have a distinctive sound like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's amazing. You live in Brooklyn. You play tennis in Brooklyn. Yeah. The USDA makes how much money off the U.S. Open?

They did. Two years ago, they did $550 million or something like that. I've heard talk that they're going to keep pushing until they break a billion. They want to make a billion dollars. Yeah. I think they sold 700,000 honey juices. You joke, but they do eight figures in honeydews. They do eight figures in honeyduses, which a lot of New Yorkers,

that's where they're getting their fresh fruit from. You know, one time I saw a bowl full of just the honeyduse balls. Just the balls. Yeah, it would have been so refreshing to have that it was open. Why am I frustrated that I know how much money is being made in Queens for the United States Tennis Association, yet playing tennis in Brooklyn with a very powerful. A passionate group of tennis players is almost impossible.

Very, very difficult. I love tennis deeply enough to write a book about it and spend many hours a week watching it. But I don't think I love it enough to be a multiple time-a-week tennis player in New York. Those people orient their lives around it because the court time is so scarce. You end up having to pay for an expensive club or book court at like a crazy hourly rate or wait online for three hours to play for one hour and someone's beating down your neck the whole time. So the scarcity of the courts and the incredible... surplus of tennis players makes it tricky in the city.

Can the USDA fix that? I know you're not a USDA board member, but I mean, I just see the money and I see the passion here. Yeah. And then they're like, hey, we just built 64 courts in Oklahoma City. Totally. Okay, there's 64 people in Oklahoma City.

Yeah. What do you think the answer is? I had her friend joking about, like, vertical parking garage-style tennis courts. I like that, yeah. Maybe we got to use the space we have, And we have vertical space here. Yeah, and maybe for once tennis could overtake some pickleball courts.

I don't even want to talk about pickleball. And you know what? There's a part of me that wonders after some of your responses to Act 1 if this is a pickleball audience? Should take a poll. You've written a book, a successful book on tennis. You're teaching nonfiction writing at Columbia. You're contributing to Defector.

For young people out there that are looking to be writers, what would you advise them? Tell me how we can create more writers. I think, you know, I had this totally bleak and nihilistic view when I was heading out from my book tour. I was like, there's no way anyone under the age of 20 who's interested in sports wants to learn about sports through books. But at every stop, I would just meet a super passionate kid

who was very excited to get into the book. And I'm just like, there is a way of books opening up a world for you that's not possible with short-form vertical video guys. But I think even kids who are fed that by these trillion-dollar corporations understand that. And so long as there are holdouts who do try to express the amazing stories in sports through the written word, I think we'll find a receptive audience. We have to work very hard to find that space because there's being bombarded by things from all corners.

Are you writing every day? I do. I write pretty much every day. Not always about tennis, but whatever catches my eye. honestly. What would you advise a young writer on best practices to do that? I mean, are you finding time to write? Do you have a family? Are you finding time to write in the subway? Are you writing in the morning? Are you keeping a journal? How do you manage that? My best writing practice right now is I write about my day with my one and a half-year-old every single day. So I have a cool

document of just literally every, like in the beginning it was a lot of like poop consistency in color and stuff like that. Now it's more like words we're working on. So it's been a very cool. and I hope to turn that into something book-shaped at some point. Okay. You know, one thing I am happy was not in this book is Yonix Sinter and Carlos Alcarez's poop consistency. That's for the sequel. Check out Giddy's writing, Defector.com, and his book, Changeover. Giddy Nathan.

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