The Daily Show: Ears Edition - The Misappropriation of MLK (feat. Dr. Ibram X. Kendi) - Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

Conservatives in America have a habit of citing Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. to score a variety of political points. Some have even used his words to undermine antiracist education and critical race theory. In this episode, Dr. Ibram X. Kendi and Daily Show writer Randall Otis join host Roy Wood Jr. to discuss how conservatives pervert MLK’s words, why he’s so central to America’s civil rights education, and how to properly honor his legacy.    Watch the original segments:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NsnaVyJBAo  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxhgeSFJCsQ  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, it's Roywood Jr. and to honor Martin Luther King Jr. day, we're revisiting a beyond-the-scenes episode about the life and legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Ebermex Kendi and Daily Showwriter Randall Otis, and we discuss how conservatives have a habit of sighting MLK to score a variety of political points. Some even use his words to undermine anti-racies education and critical race theory. We also discussed the commercialization of the holiday and how to properly honor Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy. I'm looking at you. I better not see y'all at no MLK mattress day sales. Have a listen. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that have originally aired on the Daily Show at Trevor Noah.

I am Roywood Jr. per as usual. This podcast, you know what, you know what, you know, beyond the scenes? This is like when you order a milkshake and they give you that little, their milkshake, they' their tube, theyricksk, toy's, toy's, toy's, toy's, toy's, toy's, toy's, the's, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to, to, tog, togs, togs, togs, togs, togs, toge, toge, toge, toge, toge, toge, their, their, their, toge, toge, toge, toge, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, that little extra bit of milkshake. You know how like they give you the milk shake and then they give you the cup they made the milkshake in. It's got a little bit of a corner. That's a southern measurement of liquid. They give you a little extra corner of milkshake. It's two milkshakes for the price of one.

That's what this podcast is like. We are overflowing with information with information information information information information information information information information information information that information that information that information that information. freeze. Now, in honor of Dr. Reverend Martin Luther the King Day, we are taking a look at the life and legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., the appropriation of his message, his influence in today's pop culture, and all things of that nature. Today I'm joined by daily show writer Randall Otis. Randall as always great to have you on. How are you doing, pimping? I'm doing good, you know. Got COVID's, so I don't to to to to to to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry to worry th. I don't th. I don't th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th to work th. th. th. tho' th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thioliolioliolioliolioliolioliolioliolioliolioli. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to have you on how you doing pimping. I'm doing good you know got COVID's so I don't have to worry about that for another month at least. Well you know what they say Randall you're not a real New York City stand-up comedian if you haven't caught COVID so welcome to the party pal I'm also joined by New York Times best-selling author of the book How To Be an Anti-Racist

and also stamp from the beginning the definitive history of racist ideas in America. He is a historian and the director of Boston University's Center for Anti-Racist Research. Professor Ebrake. Professor Kendi, how are you doing today? I'm good. I'm still running from COVID like it's the NYPD, but I'm trying. Well, if it's anything like the NYPD, eventually it will stop you for questioning. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you so much for being on the show. Before we get into the topic at hand today,

which is Dr. Martin Luther Reverend, the King, and the way a lot of people cherry pick pieces of his message to fit their narrative, you have dedicated your life to trying to educate and get people to understand, here's how we correct, here's how we reverse this terrible cancer on this country. What the hell do do th th is like th is like do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do, like is like is like is like is like is like is like is like is like is like is like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. that, you, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. this country. What the hell do you do to relax, man? What is your, what is like, you know, Randall, you know people always talk about, what's your spa routine?

What's your wusa? What does Professor Kendi do to unwind and just take a breath from this? So that, the St. Greer helps each night. I think I also try not to take things personally. And so certainly when people are degrading black people I don't take it personally as if there's something wrong with me or people like me. I recognize them as a problem. But even when people are personally attacking sort of me and my work from bad faith, I also just try not to take it personally and try to be focused, you know, in transformation. So when we talk about Martin Luther King Jr's birthday and the fact that it's now a national holiday, is, are they observing it yet in Arizona?

Or are we still 49 states? I don't know. Like everyone knows that I have a dream speech and that's the one that's kind of the, it's the most quoted of all of his many, many quotables, but that was only a small part of his complex legacy. I'll start with you, Professor Kendi. What parts of Dr. King's legacy, in your opinion, are often overlooked?

Well, I mean, even if you take the MLEV, I Have a Dream speech, and the line that is often quoted, that King's dream, that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of the character, people disregard what he said directly before that line and directly after it, which in which he lamented that his dream is being thwarted by vicious racists in places like Mississippi which are sweltering with the heat of oppression. Can you imagine if I say that today, right, you know, that that's a problem, but but then somehow, and so I, and so I th, and so I th, and so I th, th, thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, directly thi, directly thi, directly thi, directly thi, directly thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thii, thi thi you imagine if I say that today, right, you know, that's a problem, but but then somehow, and so I think there's so much of King's sort of legacy, the fact that he simultaneously recognized racism and spoke out about racism as the problem, but then also recognized how racism itself

wasn't just sort of harming black people. It was harming America, it was harming democracy. And it was dividing people, and he wanted to bring people together, and he saw anti-racism as a unifying sort of praxis. The way you've just so eloquently explained that, hey, do you know right before that line and right after that line, he said some other stuff you should look into. Why are people, why do people cherry pick that? Why are people in denial about the other parts of who Dr. King was? Like, he was against the Vietnam War.

Why has that never brought up? I mean, it's striking. I mean, you know, they, not only was King against the Vietnam War, but when he came out against the Vietnam war, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, the, th, they, not only was king against the Vietnam War, but when he came out against the Vietnam War, I believe April 4th, 1967, he stated in his speech that the United States government is the greatest purveyor of violence on the face of this earth. And, you know, again, he was very clear about even the relationship between imperialism, military sort of warfare, human division, you know, and racism. And I think, I'm personally sort of bothered just because he said so much more than that I have a dream speech in that single line.

But we of course miss that because we try to, people try to use King to justify their own not racism or that we should be race neutral as a nation, which I'm still trying to figure out what that even means. What I would love to do is play you a clip of conservatives who have appropriated MLK's message. Let's just let's just listen to a run of conservatives quoting Dr. King. Dr. King would not participate in a black lives matter protest. The great MLK said that you have a moral obligation to object to unjust rules and rules that make no sense.

One of my favorite quotes from Dr. King was, now is the time to make real the promises of democracy. You think of how he changed America. He inspired us to change through the legislative process to become a more perfect union. That's exactly what President Trump is calling on the Congress to do. Today I'm asking my colleagues to remember the words of more perfect union. That's exactly what President Trump is calling on the Congress to do. Today I'm asking my colleagues to remember the words of the legendary, the great leader in this country, Dr. Martin Luther King, who once said, the time is always right to do what is right. And I just want to leave you with a quote from Martin Luther King, that we must learn to

live together as brothers or we will perish together as fools. Thank you. Critical race theory is a Marxist doctrine. That rejects the vision of Martin Luther King Jr. Critical race theory goes against everything Martin Luther King has ever told us. Don't judge us by the color of our skin, and now they're embracing it, right? They're going backwards. He's kind of like everyone's dead, like my black friend is like, this dead man who you

can make say anything, right? And with the thing about, you know, he has this huge body of work in this entire life, it's kind of like if someone, maybe this is a poor analogy, but it's like, oh, I'm like, oh, do you know, outcast? You know, hey, yeah, hey, shake it like like like like like like like like like like it like it like it like it like it like, like it like it like, like, like, like, like it like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like'm like, oh, do you know, outcasts? You know, the group outcasts? Like, oh, yeah, hey, shake it like a Polaroid picture. I'm like, yes. But even one within the song, hey, yeah, you're misunderstanding

that the entire song is incredibly sad and about the ability of love to last. But there's also other songs outcasts made. more poignant than hey, yeah. So Randall, as a writer at the Daily Show, you have what I consider to be the most difficult job in the building, which is to take sadness and make it funny. And so when you all were researching this piece, and you started digging up all these wonderful, wonderful, factoids on Dr. King, you know,

and how the FBI, you know, they tried to destroy him with wiretaps and they called him playing crazy audio. They told him he should kill himself, suggested suicide. But then the FBI's Twitter account gives Dr. King a shot out on MLK Day. How do you all in the writer's room juggle the gravity of the situation versus the need to still be able to infuse humor into this topic? Well, I guess it's, for me, it's kind's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, liketh, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the the the th, the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, absurd and heightened to a level that is almost hard to comprehend. And it's kind of in a way with that, kind of like the Trump problem, like when something is so ridiculous,

how do you heighten that reality? And part of it is to, I guess, I like focus on some of the reactions of the serious thing. So if something's like incredibly serious, incredibly potent, it may be hard, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, to thi, thi, thi, thi, to thi, that is th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. And, and th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that's thi, thi, thi. And, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. And, thi, thi of the serious thing. So if something's like incredibly serious, incredibly potent or incredibly important, it may be a hard to go hard to joke about that thing in and of itself, but the deflections off of that topic can be somewhere you can go. And that's usually where I find a lot of humor. So people's reactions to what the FBI has said is a good source of humor. So it's like kind of like,

it's hard to stare directly into the sun, but you can get the rays off what the sun provides. You know what I mean? Professor Kendi, the thing that I guess is so amazing to me about Dr. King is that he is the one that we're all taught. So I'm a product of the Birmingham City School System. Birmingham is at about a 75 80% black city. All the city schools are predominantly black. Teachers are predominantly black. Tau a lot of blackety blackness. We did a lot of field trips to blackety black stuff.

Yet when I look back in reflection on everything, it was a black school system, but it was for sure a white board of education, a white state board of education. And when I look at everything that we were taught, we were just taught the basic hits. You were lucky if you found out about Marian Anderson. Like they taught you, I always call it, suit, I always call it suit brother and a flute brother. You would learn a black person who plays an instrument

and a black person who wore suit. They didn't teach you about anybody else. How did Dr. King become the one that was synonymous with the civil rights movement when there are so many other figures that did things to move the black race forward and how do we make for a more well-rounded civil rights education in this country? Like can't we misquote other people other than why Dr. King the only one we misquote? Abanathia says some dope shit too. I mean I think there's probably two reasons without getting in too much trouble. I think the first is that I mean I think King certainly was an incredibly pivotal figure during the

civil rights movement and during the movement itself captured much of the media narratives around civil rights when in many cases there were other people who were sort of leading the way, you know, whether we're talking about even the Montgomery sort of bus boycott, which was largely organized by women and it was more mainly domestics who were boycotting. Of course, King sort of became one of the premier sort of media figures. And so I think there's that, then I think the other reason is because how they framed King. So they framed King as Mr. Nonviolence. They sort of want to essentially, just as during the Civil Rights Moon, they want to frame King as nonviolence, Malcolm X's violence, which are of course both flawed. And then they want to frame King as an assimilationist, that he was essentially seeking to integrate into

superior white America. And you black people, that's what you're supposed to be doing, when that's also false. So I think the way in which they frame King also, you know, is a reason why I think they're misrepresenting him as opposed to somebody else. I'm curious, kind of like with the they you're talking about, is can't it be kind be kind be kind be kind be kind to be sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort, kind kind kind kind kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind, kind to be, kind of, to, to, to, to, to, to be opposed to somebody else. I'm curious kind of like with the they you're talking about, is can it be kind of sourced back to some type of specific group or movement to try to edit the history of MLK or is it more of like a broader just general social movement among people? Well, I mean, one of the ways we could understand the last 50 years is there has been efforts to essentially create race neutrality.

This, the, you know, particularly, you know, Americans who once were champions of separate but equal who were segregating and supporting racial segregation, who were opposing sort of busing, who were supporting the underfunding of those majority black schools that Roy talked about, and using very explicit ideas about black people to justify them. By the 1970s, those very same forces were saying, oh, we're no longer segregationist, but we're committed to racial neutrality. Because what happened is by the 60s, you had activists who were like, okay, we have all this inequality, now we need to eliminate it.

And they were like, no, no, no. You know, even though these people need more, if we allocate resources based on need, that's quote, reverse discrimination. And so in many ways, those very people are also the people who are trying to, really, as I wrote in a piece recently, the Atlantic, engaging the second assassination of Martin King.

So to that article, the Atlantic article, the second assassination of MLK, you said that, quote, King's nightmare of racism is being presented as his dream. Is what happening right now in this country is this Dr. King's nightmare? Like, what do you think when you see MLK's words appropriated in order to serve these various political narratives. No, I think people forget that by 1967, a year before he was assassinated, King stated that in many cases, my dream has turned into a nightmare. And one aspect of that nightmare was by 1967 you had so many, particularly young people, but even parents and educators who were pressing for, for instance, African American history. And there was all sorts of opposition to that.

And you know, King actually in a book in 1967 wrote, the history books which have almost completely ignored the contribution of the Negro in American history have only served to intensify the Negro sense of worthlessness and to augment the anachronistic doctrine of white supremacy. And so King was clearly a supporter of anti-racist education, of what's now called critical race theory, but what's ironic is they're using King to oppose the very thing he supported in his own written writings. Randall, what role, like if we talk about, if we talk about this idea of King being the only

one that is quoted, what role do we think entertainment plays in it? Because when we think about, we talk about like solutions, right? All right, if, if the real shit ain't thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing, if, if, if, if, if, if, the the the th th th the thing, if, thing, the the thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thing, thi, the their thin, thin, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their their, their, their their their their their their thing thing thing thing, thing, thing, thing, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi we think entertainment plays in it? Because when we think about we talk about like solutions, right? All right, if if the real shit ain't being taught in the schools and from the looks of it, it ain't gonna get taught any time soon depending on how these midterms go, then is it on the parents to start? Because you know I have a five-year-old and they're already learning about people in kindergarten that they didn't toucest on until fifth or sixth grade with me. So in my head, I'm doing the calculations. They're going to run out of black people to teach them about by the second grade. Is it on the parents to supplement the education?

And also, you know, kind of like, what role does Hollywood play? Because we go, oh, they quote MLK too much, but when you look at civil rights movies, that's the only one they love to green light. If we're going, and I'm going way, way back. I know it's a little different now, but if we're talking 20 to 30 years of black cinema, more often than not, it's just the hits to re-educate people? I think it has an important role. Like, clear, like, you know, Judas and the Black Messiah

came out recently. That's probably the first time a lot of Americans probably even heard the name Fred Hampton, you know, or even had the Black Panthers portrayed in a way that wasn't as a terrorist. Like, I grew up in Florida. What you can say is not the South, whatever, that's the South. That's super South, that's extra strength South. It's high fidelity South.

And I remember when I was in school, like I learned the lost cause theory in the Civil War and like the state's rights theory about the civil war. Like that's what I was taught. and it and it and it and it and it was th and it was th. And it was th. And it was th. And it was th. And it was thoed, and it was thoed, and it was tho. And it was thrown, and it was thrown, and it was tho, tho, that, like, like, thr-I the. the. thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. And, the the they. And, the they. And, they. And, the the the the the Civil War. Like, that's what I was taught. And it was through my parents teaching me outside of school about the history of more people than just MLK and George Washington, Carver every single year, where I got to learn about these people. And so that's me as a black person, like being kind of denied access to my history, or just the history of a lot of people..... th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and to, to, and thi, and to to, and to, and to to to to to, and, and, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, to, to, and, to, and, to, to, and, and, to, to, and, and, th, and, th, and, th, and, th, th, th, thi, thi, and, the the the the thi, the the the the thi, the the the the the the thracea, the the the the the the thean, their, their, throwne, their, and, thi, and, the history of a lot of people from this country, black

people. And so I can't even imagine what it's like if you don't come from a black family, a lot of them may not take the time to teach you about these things or maybe they weren't even educated themselves about it. So I guess in that way, entertainment's important. And I think in terms of like people just making another another movie movie movie okay and another movie about I'm okay is just probably in a ways. One, that it's easy, you know, people already understand who this guy is and the other ones may be harder to green like because it's like, look, no, it seems like self-perpetuating, you know, it's like only only learn about him okay. So other people only learning about them okay. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Well, after the break, let's stay in Florida.

Let's talk about your governor, Ron DeSantis. And his latest attempts to ban critical race theory down in Florida. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. We are talking about conservatives and their loving relationship with Martin Luther King, but only the good part. Just give me a little bit of what he said that I agree with. That's the part that I like. Professor Ebrim Kendi, Ron DeSantis down in Florida. This man, who? So he's introduced a stop woke act. While quoting MLKK in the middle of introducing the act.

You think about what MLK stood for. He said he didn't want people judged on the color of their skin but on the content of their character. You listen to some of these people nowadays, they don't talk about that. Is this increased wave of criticism against critical race theory? Is this a direct result of heightened support for black lives matter? You know, like, because I feel like, you know, in every movement, I feel like every time black people make some level of progress, there is a degree of backlash.

Is this, you know, heightened because of support for Black Lives Matter nationally? Or is it as MLK referred to it, the white backlash? I think it's both, I don't think it's a coincidence that this manufactured critical race theory, sort of mania happened in 2021 a year after the series of demonstrations around the country in the summer of 2020 with tens of millions of people marched and demonstrated against police violence and racism and by June of 2020, one poll was stating that as many of 76% of Americans were recognizing that racism exists and was a major problem.

Also the majority of white Americans for the first time on record were also expressing a recognition of racism and that problem. And so I think that of course, there was a very targeted effort to undermine that to say no racism isn't the problem those people who are saying racism is the problem or the real problem but I also think that studies show that specifically Trump's base when you when you compare them to white Democrats or even Republicans who don't necessarily like Trump, they specifically are more likely to believe

that white people are the primary victims of racism or that white people are being subjected to racism. So the whole sort of mania around critical race theory is that it's harming white children. That white children, you know, are basically being chosen. My child's not an enemy. Exactly. That our teaching force, which is what, 80% white is telling white children that they are evil. I mean, that's the sort of idea because, and there's a recognition that that idea is very prominent and well believed and will be well received, you know, particularly among Trump's base.

Randall, being from Florida, what would you say is the ratio of knowing what you know now about blackness and your identity and the journey of our ancestors, what percentage of that did you learn in home versus learning in Florida schools? What's the ratio? Very little. One, two, I don't know, there's probably a number that hasn't been invented yet and we'll get there one day. That's what I would say. There's pretty much almost all in the home where I learned about blackness and the history of black America. Up until I was, which is I left Florida. I just had to get the hell out of there.

I feel like the hypocrisy in this is so perfect because like how can the right whole like two conflicting mantras right they go we love MLK and racism is gone but also let's ban all of MLK's books. Because what I hate about this is the revisionist history of the great Dr. Martin Luther King, who we must all honor. 70% of y'all hated them back in the 60s. First of all, Professor Eram, I didn't know that they did polls on civil rights leaders. He was like 66% of people. That King had an approval. Yeah, like 66% of people hated him. They did not rock with what he did.

I just don't understand, you know, because like when you look at what's happening now with like, like this Tennessee group, Moms for Liberty, right? They try to ban Francis E. Ruffin's book on Martin Luther King and the March on Washington. How can you love MLK but also want to ban his teachings? You also have here, you know, Professor Kendi, you have Pennsylvania's Central York School District, banning Brad Meltzer's I am Martin Luther King Jr. Then two years before that, which you got to give them credit down there in Georgia, you know, they were ahead of the curve on banning some of these books before it became, you know, before it became nationwide.

Georgia was doing it loud and proud after Stacey Abrams almost took the state from them. The Columbia County School District in Georgia band, Nick Stone's Dear Martin. Is the CRT debate, is this just another moment of Americans being able to deny what happened? Like, what is the fear and just, what is, there we go. What are you fucking afraid of? What are people afraid of if we dare to turn over these rocks of the past? What motivates this hatred of just facts? We're not even asking for policy. That's what's so wild about this shit. This is not a policy debate. This is just, hey, can we talk about the time that thing happen us?

That time in history? Wow, I mean, and even, you know, going back to Georgia, to Georgia, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tto, toda, toda, toda, toda, toda, today, today, the the the to, the the the the the the the that thing happened us, that time in history? Wow, I mean, and even, you know, going back to, to Georgia banning Nick's books, and Nick is, Nick Stone is a native of Georgia, so, you know, a native of, outside of Atlanta. But I think in many ways, as it relates to race, this generation and really every generation of Americans have not necessarily, to necessarily, to say, to the to, to, to, to, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to, to say, to, to, to to to to be, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to as it relates to race, this generation and really every generation of Americans have not necessarily lived in reality. So like us trying to drag people into reality, people imagine that they're trying to be, that we're trying to sort of drag them into something surreal. And for the first few decades of this country's history,

it was widely believed slavery was a necessary evil. By the 1830s, the 1860s, it was widely believed slavery was a positive good. We all know, of course, for 100 years, it was believed that Birmingham was perfectly separate and equal. And of course, for the last 50 years, people have imagined, we live in a post-racial society with racial disparities all around us. So people don't really know how to even imagine their world,

even to imagine themselves, without this denial, you know, without living in this world of make believe, as one writer called it. I can't imagine, even, I mean, in the past few years, we've, you know, we, the, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, we, we, we've, we've, we, we, we, we, we've, we've, we're, we've, we've, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, as, you know, as one writer called it. I can't imagine, even, I mean, in the past few years, we learned that a lot of people don't even think science is real or sickness when it is infecting them actively. I can't imagine how difficult it must be to have people believe in racism or the effects of our racial history. And so that's kind of something I wanted to say. And Randall, really quickly, I think generally people don't believe in science, but they really don't believe in racial science. They just think I'm just up here talking. You know, just one day I just decided to start

talking about race and racism that I wasn't trained to study this, that this is in my expertise, that people are sharing their views and I'm sharing my views. And that's what really, really makes it hard. Dr. Kendi, when you speak and I know, and I'm sure that you are brought in to talk to a lot of in a lot of capacities to people that may agree with you and want to learn more. But talk to me a little bit about the confrontational side of this because you have the data, you've done the studies, you have done the research, you're not just someone who was awakened recently and put, like, you're one of the few people

that I'll talk to on this podcast who I believe has read every book that is behind you right now. Like, you know, you know, we started doing these shows from home. People started, you know, decorating their books, arranging them by color. You ain't read them, you're arranging them by color. That's the first sign that I know you ain't read them. Talk to me about the confrontations that happen. Do you. Do you. Do you.? And like even pre-COVID where there was a little bit more face to face where someone wants to challenge you and go, you're full of it. Oh, I mean, that's pretty regular. It was more so during COVID, before COVID, I should say. But I mean, I actually, you know, my work, I tried to to to talk about about the difference the difference the difference the difference the difference the difference the difference the difference the difference the difference this lie that, let's say, the election was stolen by those voters and those black and brown voters in Atlanta or, you know, or Philadelphia. And when that consumer sort of then repeats that propaganda to me, I try to have that level of sort of empathy

to think about that somebody sort of manipulated them into thinking this way, into thinking that that's other people stole their election. And I think that empathy, knowing that none of us are sort of born with ideas that a particular group is dangerous or inferior or stealing election, you know, I try to just remember that when I'm confronted, and I try to really ask the person who's claiming that they are not racist, I asked him, okay, so how do you define the term? If you swear, you're not racist. You must be able to define that term. And usually they can't.

Before we go to break, then here's my last question. Where does America compare with other countries' educational systems when it comes to like confronting difficult parts of their history? I've been told that Germany don't play that when it comes to Nazi history and the rewriting or the repositioning of what Nazis really were all about. How do other countries confront their dark pasts in the history books? I actually think German is a great example,

and I think many Americans are surprised to learn that German children as early as kindergarten are taught about Nazism, you know, in the Holocaust and about the truth of that sort of brutality and mass murder because there's a recognition that if if young people learn about Naziism, if they learn about the ideas that's justified it, that they will be able to recognize that and will be able to recognize that and prevent it from resurfacing, while of course in comparison in the United States, we're in denial even about how horrible slavery truly was. I mean, you still have U.S. Senator Tom Cotton last year when he was blasting the 1619 project, insinuated

that slavery wasn't necessary evil. Like in 2021. They had a home. They had a meal. They were safe. Tom Cotton wrote, as the founding father said, slavery was the necessary evil upon which the union was built. It's always something. It's always something. After the break, let's let's talk about the future. Let's get optimistic after the break and figure out ways that we could infuse other MLK quotes

into these people miles and figure out ways to properly honor Martin Luther King's legacy. This is beyond the scenes. Let's talk solutions. I found this interest in Randall that you know we have for decades fought for Martin Luther King Day you know and to have it be recognized and also sidebar for his face to not be put on club flyers to promote nightclub ignorance. Please stop it full stop sorry white people is the black I'm just talking to the black people right now. Okay we're back. This poster has a lot of people shaking their heads in disgust.

It shows Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. wearing a gold chain promoting a party called Freedom to Twerk. It was supposed to take place at this club, but it's been canceled. The owner says he's disgusted and there'll be no twirking here. In all of the fighting for MLK Day, MLK's family recently has called for no celebration without action on voting right to legislation. Is this an effective strategy to try to get people to honor him and provoke change? Or does this just give conservatives out and just go,

well, you don't want MLK Day? Sounds good to me. I guess to me, I can appreciate the sentiment, but I, maybe y'all do something different. I don't like do anything on MLK Day. I, like, I don't, I don't know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, do, to, do, do, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th, to, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th.......... I, to, to, to, to, to, th.. I, to, to, to, th... I, to, th.. I, th. I, th. I, th. th. like do anything on MLK Day. I'm like, this is my day off. Like, I don't know, do you have like MLGATE Day fireworks or something? I just, maybe I've been missing out for the past 29 years, but, but I don't think we should throw out the baby with the bathwater,

you know what I'm saying? We need to revamp how we think to rev King and how we teach them, but we should keep the day off, you know, and like we shouldn't be tasteless with, you know, mattress sales or for black people or something, but it's like, let's keep the sale. Why not? I don't, I don't, I don't, but just, okay, well, let's let's let's let's. Let's ask Mr. Research here. Dr. Kendi. When you thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the th. th. the th. th. they. the. the. the. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, the, the, the, the. the. the. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you. the, you the, you the, you the, you, you, you, you. the, you. the, you. the, you. the, you. the, you. the, the, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. tase, tase, tase, tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. tas. the. the, the, the are out and you are shopping and you see them MLK 20% off prices on clothing, do you go out and buy something in honor of Dr. King? Like how do you feel about the commercialization of Martin Luther King or is that just capitalism, which is a totally separate podcast episode? I mean, I think that the sad fact is almost everything has been commodified and, and, you know, including some of our sort of greatest historical figures, you know, like King. And so, and that's really as you've stated, I mean, that's a function of capitalism. And so I think that's sort of a different type of issue.

I think short of a sale on sniper rifles, I'm okay with the commercialization. Because at least, let me put it this way, Randall. I'm not defended by it, if that makes sense. Like, I don't like it, but these are just stupid stores that are just going, what are y'all celebrating? Cool. Let me put that on a flyer next week to sell more sodas or sell more groceries. There will be some sort of, they won't call it a George Floyd sale, but it'll be some, I guarantee, you mark my words, dog, mark my words this summer. There's going to be some sort of unity sale or some shit.

They're not going to call it George Floyd, but it's going to oddly be around just a little bit before Juneteenth. So not a Juneteenth, but in the ballpark of it. And I think that's where, you know, things, like, Juneteenth is that, that's another perfect example, you know, Dr. Kendi where, yeah, yeah, but that that that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, th, th, th, th, th, th, I I I I I I I I I I think that's where, you know, because like, Juneteenth is, that's another perfect example, you know, Dr. Kendi, where y'all wasn't rocking with June team for real, for real, but then now it's, oh, well, we care about the blacks, so let's show them that we care. Now you get a day off for Juneteen, which I'm happy to have, which I also full disclosure. I think so. What do th. th. th. th. thi th. thi th. thi th. thi thi thi thi th is thi thi that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's. that's. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. the th. they. th. that's they. that's that's that's that's that. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's think Trevor don't. What did he give us off Randall two days for Juncty? I think so. We got more than a day. Yeah, I don't I understand where that comes from. It's not my favorite thing about Martin Luther King and the way he's been kind of whitewashing I guess in this and to this degree, you know, green washed but it, it troubles me, but I think there's far

worse issues surrounding his legacy, which to that question, you know, Dr. Kennedy, how do we properly honor MLK's legacy while also deemphasizing him? Like, how do you exalt him and go, but also, you know what I mean? Like, you know what it's like, again, if I'm gonna use the outcast analogy, if I take Randall's outcast analogy, Dr. King is Andre 3000, but don't forget, Big Boy has some bars, too. I think maybe one of the ways is, you know, if people want to talk about and and know about King, we can sort of meet them where they are. So, okay, let's talk about, you know,

Marlotha King, let's talk about Southern Christian Leadership Conference and the role Ella Baker played in the building of that organization. Or, and so we can use King to not only sort of describe his specific legacy and his message, but also to to teach about other sort of historical figures who worked with him, who thought in the ways that he did or even who thought differently. And I think that's maybe an effective way to sort of honor King, to really honor the whole movement, and really honor the longstanding movement of black people to be free. What do you think, and I hate this question, but I only hear white people asked it, so I'm

going to ask you as a black person. I'm going to ask both of you. So Randall, what do you think Dr. King would have to say about these times that we're in right now? Oh, thank you,, White Roj Junior. No, like seriously, like if Dr. King had a Twitter account, if he had a Twitter account, first off, do you think he would respond to trolls? I think he would, one, just because he'd be an old dude and he wouldn't really get technology. Like, he'd, of course, that comes to age.

It takes everybody, it doesn't matter who you are. But if you had a Twitter, yeah, I feel like you'd respond to the day's events. And because the way that you framed it, I guess, is like, they would think that everything is going on as bad. And I'd just be like, well, bro, if you actually do care, if this isn't just you try to like get in my mentions of today, I'd be like, read just two other speeches by him, just two other things, like, read a letter from a Birmingham jit, you know, and see how he thinks about like

white moderation or something like that. It just be like, just do the smallest amount of work possible. Dr. Kendi, if Martin Luther King was on MSNBC tonight in a four box arguing with two other conservatives and host Joy Reed or Tiffany Cross, I'm just being silly. But like, seriously, like, because there's so much that's happening now that I feel like compares to his day. Like, we talk about Karen's calling's the cops the cops the cops the cops the cops the cops, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, if thinks, if thinks, if thinks, if thinks, if, if, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, thinks, seriously, like, because there's so much that's happening now that I feel like compares to his day. Like, we talk about Karen's calling the cops on black people. You don't think white women wouldn't calling the cops on black folks when they was marching and they were in suits.

Yeah. What would, what would Dr. Kitt? That's a good one. What would he have to say about Rachel Dolizow claiming she's black? Or would you just be a welcome to the movement kind of sort of black sister? I mean, well, King grew up in a black community, went to a black church, went to a black college. And so, you know, I think I actually would wonder what he would say about about somebody who considers themselves trans racial. But I also think, you know, he would say, like to say, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I somebody who considers themselves transracial. But I also think, you know, he would say, like tonight on Joy's show, he would say, as I stated in a, in 1963, the filibuster is a tool of Jim Crow.

The fact that we have democratic politicians who are refusing to do away this tool of Jim Crow that I've literally fought my whole career. The fact that you have Republicans who are honoring me, at the same time they refuse to do away with what I fought against my whole career, you know, is the height of hypocrisy. And who the hell used my voice for that Dodge call commercial? I did not authorize! You truly? It's just so fun to do his voice, man. It's just I think that's another reason you call him all the time because it's fun. Yeah. We have gone beyond the scenes. We have done it. Dr. Ebraum X-Kindy. Thank you so much for coming on the show. to us. tho us. th. th. th. th th th th th. th th th. th th th th th. th th. th. th. th. th th th. th th. th. th thi th. th. the thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi thi thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the th. the the the th. the the th. the the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the thee to theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. to to to to the. the. much for coming on the show. Randall Otis as well. Thank you so so much for coming on the show. Of course, thank you, Roy.

Thank you, Randall. Let me know when y'all get that racism stuff solved up there in Boston, Dr. Kendi I'll swing by. It's gonna be a minute. You know, we need to talk about that next time, You got a minority man and a woman. She's on Michelle Wu. Yeah. Indeed. All right.

Take care, y'all. Take care, y'all. Listen to the daily show beyond the scenes on Apple podcast. Listen to the daily show beyond the scenes on Apple podcast, the I-Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast. Even if you get them in a back alley, we're there. He knows Frank knows us.