The Daily Show: Ears Edition - The NFL’s Lack of Black Head Coaches | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: August 13, 2023

The Rooney Rule came into effect in 2003 to increase the number of Black head coaches in the NFL. Brian Flores’ lawsuit against the league exposed how team owners don’t take this rule as seriously as they should. Host Roy Wood Jr. sits with CBS Mornings co-host, Nate Burleson, and former New York Jets coach, Collette V. Smith, to discuss the lack of diversity in the NFL’s head coaching positions and how the league can hold team owners accountable.   Original air date: October 25, 2022See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

John Stewart here, unbelievably exciting news. My new podcast, The Weekly Show, we're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show. This is the best way to explain this podcast. Okay, look, the Daily Show is the club.

You're already in the club. You got in the club. But this podcast is the VIP section, members only. You get a chair, you get a bottle with a sparkler coming out of it, you get yourself a little bit of an orderve, you get your own personal bouncer. And inside that VIP area, we give you a deeper scoop on all of your favorite episodes. Today, we are talking about a topic that Trevor covered earlier this year when former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores sued the NFL after being on the receiving end of what he accuses the Dolphins of being

discriminatory hiring practices. Give me a clip. For a long time, black coaches in the NFL were just not a thing. In fact, between 1926 and 19, there were zero black coaches. Nada. Yeah, during that 60-year period, it was easier to find a black person in space than coaching in the NFL. And finally, in 2002, Johnny Cochran, yes, the OJ guy, I guess he was really into football, he threatened to sue the league if it didn't get its act together. And so the NFL created something called the Rune the the the the the the the Re-n, the the the the the league if it didn't get its act together. And so the NFL created something called the Rooney Rule, which said that at any time that there's an opening

for a new coach, at least one minority candidate has to be interviewed for the job, which is cool. But now Brian Flores is saying that these interviews he's getting, they aren't real. These teams are just going through the motions to satisfy the Rooney Rule. And honestly, if you're going to make someone come to a bullshit interview, the least you can do is let them know ahead of time. Let them know this is a bullshit interview, because that way they can have some fun with it.

You know, think how dope it would be to get to an interview knowing you're not going to get the job. Then you can give bullshit interviews. I also don't know what a footballs is. Now look, we don't know for certain why Brian Flores didn't get these jobs, but it's clear that the Rooney Rule, despite its good intentions, has done nothing to solve the NFL's black coaching problem. R. We have some great guests that are going to be on this show to help me dissect this a little bit. I'm here right now with CBS Mornings, Nate, how you doing brother? I'm good man. I'm excited to be on this podcast and listen, I'm behind the velvet rope. I got the bottles with sparklers. This is the club. They

already got in the club. Now this is the VIP. So thank you for inviting me into the VIP section. Don't get too excited. I know you drinking Top Chef vodka, but it's really stoli. It's not we switched out that great. It's. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the to. the the to. the to. the the to. the the the the to. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the v. the v. the v. the v. the v. the v. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. tip. tip. tip. tip. tip. tip. tip. tip. tip. the. the. the. the. I. I. I. I. It's not, we switched out that great. It's watered down. Also a little later in the program, someone else with ties to the NFL. We'll be joined by former coach for the New York Jets and the NFL's first black woman coach, Colette v. Smith. We'll talk with Colette a little bit later about her and her perception of race relations.

But Nate, I want to start with you now you do some time over there in the league as I understand play a little football little football defending a little football now 70% of the players in the NFL are black yet there are currently only three black hit coaches yeah there are no black owners shout out to Byron Allen I know you try and you're scraping together that weather channel money you try to buy a brown and doing it he's been doing it he the big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big big he's a big big he's a big he's a big he's a big he's a big he's a big he's a big he's a big he's a big he's the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. he he he he he he he he he he he he. he. he. he. he. he's. he's. he's. he's. he's. he's. he's. he's. he's a big. he's a big. he's a big. He's a their. He's a they. He's a they. He's a they. He's a they. He's a they. He's a they. He's a they. He's a they. He's a they. He's a their. He's a their. He's a Allen. I know you trying you scraping together that weather channel money you trying to buy a Brunnel and doing it. He's been doing a big. Who you know by a whole channel? A whole weather channel? I ain't know they was for sale. That brother dropped down 300 million like it wasn't

shit. Facts. But can you help explain the disparity in the league? You know, Nate, between the amount of black players versus blackhead coaches and owners because you don't see that in the NBA, right, definitely don't see that. It's there have been and there is a legacy of black managers on a regular basis through numerous baseball teams, but in the NFL, the disparity is huge. Why do you think that is? You know, it's frustrating because, you know, this is 100 years of us fighting the same fight. And I'm not exaggerating that point. You have to take this back to early 1920s. If you're not familiar with the name Fritz Pollard, you should be. You just type his name in.

You'll learn a lot about the origins of African Americans trying to fight their way into this league and put their footstown. He had like a Herculian effort into opening the door. Fritz Pollard was the first African American to be a black quarterback in the league, be a black head coach in the league. This was before it was segregated. And then he went on to basically do his version of the Negro League for Football, if you're familiar with the Chicago Blackhawks and the Brown Bombers, and then the league reintegrated. That was in 1920.. Now fast forward to...

This is pre-desegregation. You feel me? You feel me? So this was this was 1920 when it was a lot different to be a black man, not just on the football field, we're just talking about in America. So he was fighting all types of fights and then you had the segregation, the reintegration, and then football players being dominant on the field, not being allowed in the front office. But before we get to that step, we have to think about the perception of the black man in the NFL. There was a time where they didn't think a black man was competent enough to be a quarterback in this league and they had to play every other position because we weren't smart enough in the eyes of some. We have to to to to to the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their their. their. their. And their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. And their. And their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, to. And, to. It's. And, to. And, to. And, their. And, their. And, they. And, their. And, their. And, their. And, the't smart enough in the eyes of some. We have to fight that fight. And then black players, people that were in love with this game, raise their hand and say,

you know what, I believe I can coach much more than just a position. I can coach an NFL team. The reason I wanted to give all that background because as a player, I didn't even realize that when I was drafted in 03. When I was drafted in 03, I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was a I was a I was a I was a I was a th. I was a th. I was a th. I was a th. I was a th. I was a th. I was a thi. I was a thi. I was a thi. I was a thioleoeaui that when I was drafted in 03. When I was drafted in 2003, I was just happy to be there. I'm a young 21-year-old and I'm sitting there trying to figure out how to establish myself as a pro and then have the longest lasting career I can. But it kind of reminds me of, you ever seen the movie Pleasantville with Tobian McGuire? And he's in this new world. It's all black and white, yeah. Yep. And then everything made sense when the color appeared. There's a lot of parallels to that and double entendres,

but same thing for me. I got in the league and it was black and white. Play as long as you can, make the money. And then when I started paying attention to the quote unquote, color like in the movie, it hit me me me me me me, th, th, the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the color, their, their, their, their, their, the color, the color, the color, the color, the color, the color, the color, the color, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, their, their, and, their, and, their, their, their, their, their, the... And, their, thea.ea, thea.ea, their, thea.ea, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the movie, it hit me. I'm looking at all of these black dudes running around, putting their life on the line. And then all these black players that go into coaching positions that are assistant coaches, that are assistance to the head coaches. But the lack of representation when it comes to head coaching jobs, it just wasn't there. And then simultaneously in 03, the Rooney rule came. And now you're thinking, all, cool, the the thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thi, thi, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, like, like, like, thi, like, like, thi, like, thi, thi, thin, thin, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi. thin, thin, thi. And, thin, thi, thi, thi, like't there. And then simultaneously in 03, the Rooney Rule came.

And now you're thinking, all right, cool, the Rooney Rule is here, which means, in other words, you gotta make sure you interview some candidates of color before you hire the person that you want to be your head coach. Make sure you talk to a couple blacks before you hire the person you was going to already go higher. Yeah, and I thought that this was going to be a significant change. And this would be a shift, but it wasn't. Yes, there were more African-Americans being interviewed and brought into the facility, but like we saw in decades prior, these owners, these GMs, they were hiring who they want to hire. Now, let me be honest. I have to be transparent in this. this, as a this, as a th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, these GMs, they were hiring who they want to hire. Now let me be honest, I have to be transparent in this. As a guy who has owned a restaurant and launched businesses,

I also understand when you own something, put your heart into something and it's your business, whether it's financial or it's a hobby, you can't hire whoever you want. But when the representation of African Americans on the field is as large as 70 plus percent, you can't help but to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As. As their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the representation of African Americans on the field is as large as 70 plus percent, you can't help but to be frustrated with how you see smart, smart players that are capable and then they just get rejected year after year after year. And I have known players that I played with, players that I played against that have been knocking on the doors for trying to be in head coach and just denied. So yes, has there been change? Of course. Have we seen more head coaches? Of course. I mean, how could we not? The years progress, more black coaches are hired and fired. But at the rate that we want opportunities to happen for black coaches, we have a long way to go. Okay, so then then to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their th. th. thr. th. their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their. th. try. try. try. try. try. try. to. try. try. to. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. Yes. Yes. have a long way to go. Okay, so then to that point, then how has the Rooney Rule hurt aspiring head black coaches? Because when you look at, let's just go with Kansas City, if we're

talking modern era NFL and the home Eric Biennemi, who has been an assistant to Andy Reed and that one of the best offenses in NFL history. Year after year after year, they've gone to two straight, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, Eric, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, th, th, th, th, th, th. tho, thoooo, thoooo, th, thoooooooo, th. th. thooooo th, th, th, th, th, Reed and that one of the best offenses in NFL history. Year after year after year they've gone to two straight Super Bowls lost one they should have won that second one but nonetheless if any contributes you got to add that he contributes to the offensive game plan in play calling he's not just a face on the sideline reading a paper correct and you read. And you read trust Eric there you go so his name was not at the top top top top top top top top top top top top top top top the. to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the te. te. te. te. te. te. te. they. they. they. the they. the the they. the the the. the. the Eric to make these calls. There you go. So his name was not at the top of a lot of teams list when it came time to look for head coaches. After that second Super Bowl appearance, do you think that the Rooney rule for someone, and we're not talking specifically about a brother like Eric, but do you think he just should just, just, how many black coaches right now? Just let me just stay where I'm mad I'm not even gonna go out there and have y'all making me look like a fool getting my hopes up making me think you go hire me because like how much has the Rooney Rule created false hope and black candidates thus keeping them from even

going in for the interview thus forcing the team trying to meet the Rooney Rule requirements to just scrape up any Negro they can find a you you good at Madden right you want to be the head coach come on in and in a review real quick for the head coachman's I get the hell out of here you play two in touch recess right yeah yeah come yeah yeah has the rule demoralized the hopes of black coaches that are qualified you know Roy you make some valid points because Eric B in Nemi is one of those coaches every single season, every single off season. I'm asking why isn't he a head coach? I can't believe it. I'm asking people that are in the business like what's the deal? Like don't tell me about who he is as a person or he's tough to get along with. Man I've seen some jerks. I've seen some nice guys I've seen thi. I've seen everybody's some some some some some some some some some some some everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody everybody the greatest their their th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. thi's thi's th. thi's thi. thi's thi's th. th. hea hea. I'm hea. I'm hea. I'm hea. I'm hea. I'm hea. I'm hea. he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he th. I'm the th. I'm th. thi. thi. thi. theeeeee. theeee. the. theee. the. thee. the. the. their telling you one of the greatest minds that we've seen over the last decade,

can't land a head coaching job. When I'm seeing guys that are less qualified, go there and stumble the way through a few seasons and then get fired, it's frustrating. But you're right though. The lions have a thing. You make a point about the Rooney Rule. As we look at it, it was supposed to be something

that balanced things out, right? It gave us an even playing field as we say in sports. But if I'm Eric B.Ene in me, and I'm getting paid decent coin, not as much as he would as a head coach. I have a guy like Andy Reed, and shout out to Andy Reed. Like other coaches out there who have been at the forefront of hiring men of color, even women in their organizations. Shout out Bruce Aryans down in Tampa Bay. That's a fact. He left Tampa Bay, black as hell. You ain't lying.

Bruce Arson. Bruce is a there. Bruce is actually life-skinned it. I don't know if you knew that. But, so for me, you look at Eric Biennoy, and if he's looking at the landscape openings, he's probably thinking to himself, I'm not going to go in on my back, tell me how good I've done, and then as soon as I walk away, you make a decision that we all knew you were going to make. And that's what Brian Flores said. Brian Flores said that, you know,

that's what this has become, even though he was afforded an opportunity and he felt like he was shorted in that opportunity because of a lot of thaphing thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin th's what this has become. As much as we wanted this Rooney Rule to work, there are organizations that bring in an African-American candidate just so they can check the box, because they already have who they want in mind. What is the League done or has the League done enough, in your opinion to try and punish owners for not taking the Rooney rules seriously?

And if not, what are some other ways that we can hold owners accountable Because you know Stephen Ross owner of the Dolphins he was only a fine 1.5 million dollars and you know right and they suspended him for a short time You know for trying to pay a black coach, you know, Florida to lose game. We need to lose games so we can get draft picks and that's really more of a competition. thi. to to????????? to to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose to lose. to lose to lose. to lose game. to lose game. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose game. to lose. to lose. to lose. to lose. to lose. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games. to lose games so we can get draft picks. And that's really more of a competition fine and punishment. That's more of a, you know, you're breaking the rules type thing. You know, it's let that punishment was rooted less than lack of diversity. But I think this is an issue that extends beyond the NFL, how do you adjudicate diversity? It's tough. How do you tax the like how do you tax the wealthy? You know, how do you penalize individuals that own these teams, some in it for the right reasons. They love football. They want their organization to go down as a

dynasty, others who own teams as hobbies. This is just another business. So you're fine an owner for not meeting the qualifications of this Rooney rule and you tell them they can't be at the facility for a few weeks in the offseason, then they'll go hang out and kick it on their yacht and then come back and get ready for a new season. I'm not sure there's something you can necessarily do to the owners because when you're talking about fines, I can't even quantify it. You know, if you're finding a billionaire, a million dollars, is that hurt in this pocket? I think we all collectively can answer that. On the flip side, I think what the league has done and can continue to do more of is highlighting the candidates and telling the stories of these candidates.

Because whenever a head coach was hired back when I was playing it was like this story. Oh man this this new young offensive mind he comes from the tree of the West Coast offense and here's to his father who coached here and he was part of this staff that won the Super Bowl and they branched off to all these and I'm by the timetime this guy walks in the building, I'm like, damn, I know this dude's whole story. I'm a fan. It's like the buddy Ryan, Rex Ryan. Exactly. We don't do that enough for these African-American and candidates of color. Like, you don't even know these stories. You don't, you can't tell me much about Byron Leftwitch, aside from the fact that he played in the league and he was, and with a big arm and now he's helping Tom Brady

down in Tampa as a coach. But what's the story behind him? Like tell his story so, I know the fans understand who love football, but these owners need to understand, don't just go with the hire that makes you comfortable. Go with the hire that is most qualified. There's a big difference. And I think also, you know, not just going with the higher with the higher with the higher with the higher with the higher with the higher with the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher the higher that the higher that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that is most qualified. There's a big difference. And I think also, you know, not just going with the higher that's the most qualified, but sticking with them and giving them time to get their system

and the personnel in place, which the Houston Texas didn't do, and we're gonna talk about that after the FLEX. We're gonna talk about the raw deal that the Houston Texas gave you got that black coach and then you ran his ass about. This is beyond, man I'm getting upset. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast. The weekly show is going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting you'll be saying yourself TGID. Thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things th th th the the th the the the th the the th th the the th the th th the the th thi thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. the thi. th. th. th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. This is th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. thea thea. the the the the thea. thea. thea. thea. the. the. the. the. the. th yourself, TGID, thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me, the election, economics, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls?

We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance, it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to Beyond the Scenes. We are talking football and

the lack of diversity at the head coaching and the ownership front office areas with Nate Burlson. After this break we're also going to talk with the first black woman to be on the coaching staff of the NFL team. She is Colette v. Smith. But first, Nate, yeah. We've already wee wee wee wee wee wee we've wee we've wee wee we've wee wee wee we've we've th they th th th th th th th th th th th th to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the the the the the the to. the the the the to. toe. toe. toe. to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to going to talk with the first black woman to be on the coaching staff of the NFL team. She is Collette v. Smith. But first, Nate, we've already talked about teams who's scared to hire or they have no intention of hiring a black coach. But let's talk about what happens when a black coach gets put in the game. Now that's there, coach. The Houston Texans, they scoop up David Cully, black man and a, and of course, that's the other thing. When a black man gets higher, boy, the press releases get the flying board, look at the

NFL and diversity and we're doing it and we've ended racism with this higher. One season four and 13 and he was let go by the Texans for what was called quote philosophical differences. How do you feel about the the recent conversations around black coaches being scapegoated for lackluster production and do you think that they are given the same amount of runway? Yeah. You know, I'm just being honest are they given the same amount of runway as white coaches to have time to get things right? In my time in the NFL, the answer is no. I don't think so, just because of what I've seen.

You gave one example. And of course they did hire Lovie Smith, another black coach who's been in the system. So I want everybody to get paid, and lovey smiths, I'm, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, is a guy that players have spoke highly about, so I have nothing bad to say about him, but I do like fresh blood. So seeing him get hired is great, but I would love the next generation of coaches to come behind him. I'll give you another one. Steve Wilkes was hired by the Arizona Cardinals and he was fired after one season. I remember that because it was a big deal. I'm like, okay, the the the the the C the c the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. the c. thi. I have thi. I have thi. I have thi. I have thi. I have thi. I have thi. I'm, I have th. I have th. I have th. I have th. I have th. I have the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the. I have the. I have the. I have the. I have the. I have thi. I have thi. I have thi. I have thi. I have th. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm to. I'm toe. I'm toean. I'm toean. I'm toean. I'm toean. I'm toean. I'm toean. I'm toe season. I remember that because it was a big deal.

I'm like, okay, the Cardinals got a new coach, okay, Steve Wilkes. All right, and then they go three and 13 I believe. Now, three and 13 is not a good record. We get that, but what are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to turn around a squad in year? How are you supposed to fix to fix to fix to fix to fix to fix, for to fix, for to fix, for to fix, for to fix, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. th, th, th, th, th, th, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.a, thi.oi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th you supposed to, for the example, in Houston, change the quote-unquote culture, that is the philosophy of football in an organization if you only have one year? There has never been this, this meteoric turnaround in one season when a coach is working with all of the drama that we've seen some of these coaches work with.

Now this isn't, wo whoa is me, all right? These coaches, they walk away with a little chunk and change, but I want to see coaches have the same amount of time to turn things around as some of these white coaches. And I'm not saying that hasn't been done, you know, because a lot of people were saying, what about Marvin Lewis? Marvin Lewis was, he was, he, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, he was, th... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th in Cincinnati forever. And they didn't go to the playoffs, they didn't win a playoff game, like, what about Marvin?

And it's like, I get what you saying? There's a idea. But there's always an example. There's always an example to point to, but you can't point to one coach and say, see, like here you are, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's......... the, the, the, the, the. the, the. the, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. there. there's like, there's like, the. there's like, the, the, the, the, you know, it works. I think you also have to have a patient and tolerant ownership, which is what I think the Brown family in Cincinnati exhibited in showing that they are not here to just, oh, one bad season, get your ass on. Because it's not like the NFL, it's not like college football, where you lose two years in a row. Like, all right fans are turning on as me the NFL fans, the NFL fans are the NFL

fans. Here's an off-the-wall question. Do you think the high expectations of black coaches as soon as they come into the league is set because Mike Tomlin won the Super Bowl in his second year with the Steelers? Then Mike Tomlin for the next 15 seasons, for 15 seasons has not had a losing season. Do you think it's Mike Tomlin's fault for being too good? Mike Tomlin, are you listening to me right now? Listen Mike Tomlin, we need you to lose, okay? We need you to go, we need you to go two and 15 the next three years in a row. do it for th for th for th for th for th for th for th for th for th for th for th for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for black for the the the the to to to to to to to go to go to go to go. We to go to go to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. to go. We're to go. We're to go. We're to go. We to go. We to go. We to go. We to go. We to go. We to go. We to go. We to go. We the the the the the the the the the the the to the the to to to to to the to to the to to to the the to to the to the to to to to to to the to the to the to the the to go two and 15 the next three years in a row. Do it for black people, Mike Tomlin. Okay. He said the bar too hard.

He said the bar too hard. Listen, and he get up there, he gets saying them words. He was like, listen, you don't want to paint the team with the broad brush. I call him Baracko Tomlin. Because he go out there and he go out. He'll talk to a listen they might have a bad game after you get down listen to me like, you know what? Yeah, I'm good with the Steelers, but Tomlin has done something and I'm joking of course still. He's done something very special Yeah, stop twee'd be still his fan. I know you better twee because I'm gonna give Tomlin the props because he picked up Brian Flores after the Miami Fiasco and said hey brother. Oh, the thi. join us. How much when we talk about diversifying and creating more of these qualified applicants, and we spoke last break about what Bruce Aryans was doing in Tampa with Todd Bowles being down there and Bowles was a former coach of the Jets and things didn't go right for him

when he was coaching the jets. And you have Byron left which in that system, how much of changing the culture at the head coaching position requires diversifying the offensive staff positions as well. Like because Andy Reed blackened up his staff. Of course. Aryans blackened up his staff. Tomlin is insulated with a couple of other, you know, and Flores isn't the only one. How much of that is part of the solution to this issue? I think that's a huge part of the cc, th. th. th. the c. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. Of tho. Of tho. Of, th. Of, th. Of, th. Of, th. Of, thi. Of, the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the th. th. the th. th. It is is is th. th. It's is thi. thi. It's is the is the is the is the is the is theea. thea. theauuu. theau. It's, thus. thea. thus. theea. thus. thus. It How much of that is part of the solution to this issue? I think that's a huge part of it, because head coaches have so much influence. Because when a head coach is successful, you listen to what they say about the Xs and O's.

Bruce Ariens can stand up in front of the media and say, I would like to shout out my special teams coach, my defensive coordinator, and my offensive coordinator that are all black. Three, black coordinators for his squad and say these guys are the main reason why we are successful. And immediately as fans, as people who sit outside the game, your eyes turn to those coaches. We start paying attention to left, which more than ever before. We start looking at Bowles and saying, you know what, he's pretty damn good. Maybe we gave him a raw deal when he was coaching for the Jets. We start looking at these coaches in a different light.

And it is up to these head coaches that are in these positions to bring up and highlight these candidates of color. So, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the game. the game, the game, the game, the game, the game, the game, the game, the game, the their, their, their, their, their, th. th. thean, thean, than, than, than, than, thananananananananananananan, the, their, the candidates of color. So, you know, I hope that what we see over the next handful of years will change. It's funny though, Roy, because every time the season nears an end, we hear about these young black coaches, a lot of them former players who are tremendous coordinators, defense side of the ball, and we're like, oh, we got some good candidates, maybe, let's go. Seven or 11, and we crap out. And we're sitting back where we started,

and it's only three or four coaches that get hired at the most. But I do feel like there is a shift coming. And I'm not being this eternal optimist, because I'm working for the machine. One thing I pride myself on is being honest, even if it's with my former employee, the NFL, but I do feel like change is coming. But let me ask you this, because I'm a fan, like I told you the first time we met a while ago, I'm a fan of you, I'm a fan of the genre, I'm a fan of comedy and general, I'm a huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge huge stand-up. Yes sir, thank you, brother. It's stand up, not saying that there hasn't been discrimination or racism or even segregation. And we know the history of where it was and where it is now.

But I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you're good and you grind and you improve, you could make enough noise to where the opportunities come. Undeniable. And I, you beat, yeah, you be, f-fing, f, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, the, th, th, the, th, th, th, the, th, thin, th, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. And, th, th. And, th, th, th, th, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a huge, I'm a huge, I'm, th. thin, I'm, I'm, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to where the opportunities come. Undeniable. And I, you be, yeah, you be effing undeniable. But in football, you can be enemy. Eric, be enemy. Be undeniable and still not get an opportunity. Is there a parallel when it comes to comedy in sports or is comedy, is comedy,

is the game changed for comedy? Social media created a new democracy that allowed for places for artists who don't necessarily get the same mainstream exposure. Like if we're gonna go big picture, we can make the argument that Bernie Mack was denied for a very long time until Kings of Comedy and Spike Lee came along and then even to a degree Bernie had to draft off of Steve Harvey's sitcom success and deal Hughly sitcom success and said being on Steve sitcom yeah for white execs to go, what about that fourth

one over there? Yeah, what about the dark scan one? He got a show in him? And even then it took Larry Willmore, who was a vouched for and bona fide Hollywood writer at that thi........ th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their toe. Bernie, Bernie, Bernie, Bernie, Bernie, their about the dark scan? He got a show in him? And even then, it took Larry Wilmore, who was a vouched for and bonafide Hollywood writer at that time for him to pair it with Bernie and create what we know is the Bernie Mac show. So you know, that's kind of the approach of being denied but getting an assist or someone else having to go, no, trust us. Bernie's the guy. Versus when you look modern age, I would say, you know, probably one of the quickest equivalencies I would make would be the 85 South show, which a lot of people listening us right now don't know about, but these brothers do television broadcast numbers on YouTube. Or the try guys. We'll get the try. But, but these shows. And they tour. And they tour tore tour. T tour. T tour. T tour. T tour. T tour. T tour. T tour. T tour. T tour. T or the try guys, we'll get, but, but these shows. And they tour, and they tour the country. Correct.

And so, and they sell 2,500, 3,500 seats, 85 South. And they have not had any mainstream television exposure except for while and out with Nick Cannon. Right. So, if you are good enough, the people choose an entertainment. If anything, entertainment is set up where the people have more power than the ownership. If I have an audience, you can't deny me. In fact, you want me more because you think my audience is going now come to your network. So there is a worth in that, whereas in sports, the fans are the most powerless because the the owners are the most powerless. Because the the ownership the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to choose choose choose choose choose choose choose choose choose choose choose choose to choose to choose to choose to choose to choose to choose to choose to choose the entertainment the entertainment the entertainment the entertainment the entertainment their their their their their their their their their their their their. So there is a worth in that, whereas in sports, the fans are the most powerless because the ownership knows

that the fans will watch regardless. The NFL knows that. They know that regardless of what you do, you just, you might not watch the whole game. You might check in on highlights, but when we get that good free agent signing, your ass gonna be back. And there's a lot of morality, there's a lot of things that teams do that where you can question the morality versus trying to win. Be it racism or be it just like you sign this player that committed that crime or did that thing. How dare you? But people still rock with that team because they know the fans will be there Especially if they win especially if they win

Television and movies is different bro because if I got an audience low key. I don't need you You need me and that's why you see a lot of social media stars who get cast and a lot of mainstream stuff because They need that the studios need access to their audience and to their reach and the things that they do, you know, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, th, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they the, especially the, especially the, especially th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the the the the. I theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. theeeee. theeeeeeeeeee. Especially if they they they they they they they studios need access to their audience and to their reach and the things that they do, you know, and so I think that you know to a degree there's still a lot of racism and not a lot of black decision makers at the top of a lot of these entertainment structures but at the end of the day I think that I have way more of a chance of getting put on and getting diverse and getting diversified. Isaray made away for herself. Quinta Brunson made away for herself. You know, which oddly enough, both of those women also still have ties back to Larry Wilmore.

But in terms of creating an audience and a buzz for herself, those two women were self-made. And they just woke up every day with a camera with whatever lights they could afford at the time and created content until people started rocking with them. And so it's tough. It's like at least I'll put this way. Entertainer has an advantage of a black coach. I can at least get myself to second base without a vouch. Now you're preaching. You preaching. And listen, you're preaching, you preaching. And listen, you opened up, you know, this podcast, today's episode by mentioning the lack of,

not just black hair coaches, but then you went on to say, no ownership. I mean, there's also, there's also this like glaring, like bolded font that you see when you realize there are no black owners in the NFL when I know that there's wealthy black men and women, excuse me, black men and women that want to be majority owners. I'm not saying, let me correct that. I know there might be minority owners, but majority owners. And I think there also needs to be more of that. Because, listen, the only way you shake some of these very loaded phrases that people throw around, like the good old boys club, the only way that professional sports can shake that is by diversifying itself. And if you're looking at the numbers, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the the the their, their, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, the there, the the the the there, th, there, the thi, there, there are there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there shake that is by diversifying itself. And if you're looking at the numbers, we've seen the studies. Diversification when it comes

to the corporate infrastructure oftentimes breeds more success. So I know that the bottom line is to sell tickets, right, and then you got to get the merchandise off and you want this organization to go from being what the Cowboys used to be to a four, five, six billion dollar brand. Okay, diversify your product and I guarantee these organizations will see more success than they've ever seen. How much, here's an off-the-wall question and I I think it's, from a political standpoint, where we're eventually headed as a people when it comes to race and identity, as the next generation

of black people and mixed-race people and Bipox, etc., start matriculating into, you know, their adult lives. The coach for the Dolphins, Michael McDaniel, who is one of three head coaches that are black in the league. You got Lovie in Houston, you got Mike Tomlin, excuse me. Well, you say Baracko Tomlin, Barack. Baracko Tomlin and Pittsburgh and Michael McDaniel has a black father, but he doesn't necessarily choose to identify as black. He doesn't deny it. But he ain't out in the black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black to identify as black. He doesn't deny it, but

he ain't out, black and black, black and black college and black and you gotta put gravy and I like biscuits in it, like he's not black in that sense. It wouldn't be a little odd though if he hasn't been doing that his own life and a reporter asked a question, he's like, my brother, good question, all right. And then he, you know, he he is he does check the boxes per the Rooney rule and I know him yeah no I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not dumping on what I'm what I'm the question I'm getting at is how black does that even matter in terms of the league is pushing his identity more than he's pushing it himself agree why do you think the league chooses to do that I think we know the answer to that the league choose to do to do to do to do to to do the the the the the the the the the th is the the the the th is the th is the the th is thi the thi thi thi thi thi. is thi. that is that is that is the the the that is the that is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. thy. theeeee. the. the. th the league chooses to do that? I think we know the answer to that.

The league chooses to do that is because it's another box checked. And Mike McDaniel, you know, he's an individual that didn't lean on that throughout his coaching career. It wasn't like, hey, yo, man, you know, it's like, what was that movie, a soul? Man. He's not moving around like, he's like, hey, hey, my brother, yeah, the white guy acting black, yeah, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, but Mike McDaniel is just a guy that's grinded. He's, he's grinding, and more than, more than his race checking the box, he

is a recipient of that tree that I was talking about earlier. You have to think about Al Shanahan who coaches the Niners, Sean McVeigh, who coaches the Rams, and Mike McDaniel were all on the same staff in Washington. They were part of this group that saw some offensive success. And then organizations were like, okay, that was a really good offense. Let me pluck from that staff. And it just so happened that on that staff were three very intelligent, young, offensive-minded, white coaches. They can't help to color their skin, they can't help the system they were in,

and they, for damn sure, aren't going to apologize for having a successful offense. The difference is there should be more eyes on successful offenses that are loaded with African-American coaches as well. Where do we, and this is the last question, I know we have to get you out of him, we got to talk to Coach Collette. This is a question that's where, I'm trying to figure out to, listen, I'm trying to help you keep your job, like every question I ask you, I'm in my head, I'm going, make sure Nate can keep getting invited to to to to to to to to the NFL, to the NFL, the the the the NFL, the NFL, the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their their their their their, their their their their, their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their the.eck.c.c.eckeckeckeckeckleauukkk.eckecklea'ecklea'ecklea'ecklea'ecklea'ecklea, the can keep his job, make sure Nate keeps getting invited to NFL honors during Pro Boat. I'm good. I'm good. Ask away, bro, be honest. I got you. I'm trying to get to the importance of how having a black head coach or having black coaches period on staff, makes your team better. In a league with majority black players, yeah.

When you were playing, how much more, and this goes back to college too. We can go all the way back, I ain't just here to just talk about your time in NFL, just as a footweak, let's go back to Pop Warner, all the way to CFL with you. Right. Did you feel a different connection when you had black coaches in any capacity on the staff? Was there a different, as a black player, was there a different connection? Was there anything that resonated for you in that time?

Of course, listen, representation matters on every level. When you walk in and you see somebody that looks like you, there's a comfort level there that you immediately embrace. You know, that doesn't mean that every black coach is going to identify with every black player. I mean, there's some black coaches who didn't come from struggle, and they're not going to be able to talk to a kid that was raised in a house full of six brothers and sisters and they were on welfare. Maybe a black coach that was raised in Bellare won't be able to talk to that kid in

the way that he needs to. Maybe there's a white coach that struggled and grew up in harsh conditions, and might be able to talk to that black kid a little bit more intimately. But when you have representation the team, when you sit in th th th th th th th th think thu thu thuuu thuu thu thu to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their to to their to to to to to to their to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tolde, tolde, tolde, tolde, tolde.e, tolde.e. tolde, tolde, tolde, tolde, toe, thee, their the on your staff in the team, when you sit in that locker room and you're taking your cleats off and you look around and you see a seat of black people sprinkled in with some white players, you would hope that your staff also reflects that. One, because you feel like it's only fair. I mean, the odds are that all of these black players that love the game so much, that literally put all their eggs in this basket. Once that basket was empty, winning got some more football legs to put it in. And then once they retire, they went and got the retirement football legs to put in that same basket. These same players are some of the most beautiful. I'm talking about Russell Crow beautiful minds that could coach at the next level. So we, when we don't see that, we're like, all right, so we're good enough to go out here and get paid to play,

but we're not good enough to get paid to lead. So there's, there lies the resentment and anger. But when you do have that, it's just different. like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the different. Like you can walk upstairs and I can talk to a white coach and we can sit there and chop it up about anything. And I might have something that might be a little bit more personal and I can go out his office and walk to a coach like Sean Jefferson, who was my receivers coach, black, former player who is still coaching the league league and I can walk in his office and have a completely different conversation because there's that connection. Coaches that understand that and they diversify their staff, there's

there's less friction, there's more cohesiveness, there's less issues off the field, because it's one thing for, you know, let me keep it all the way 100. It's one thing for a coach to look at a young black player who never had money and tell him what he should be doing, how he should be moving, how he should be acting. Another thing for a black man to talk to a young black man who might not have necessarily had an older brother or father figure or someone to speak encouragement, intelligence, to speak great vibrations into this man's life. It's different when a black coach does that. Like I've had those moments where a black coach will walk in after something that happened over the weekend and he'd be like,, listen, listen, man, close them books up.

We'll watch filming a little bit. And y'all better tighten up. You see what happened this weekend? See old boy whaling out there in them streets? He's done. He's done. That contract that he thought he was gonna get, no more. Mark my worst, he will never play again. So if you all f-around and fumble this bag, like we tell you not to fumble of football, you'll be sitting at home at your mama house.

So don't walk around here with your chest out and your chin up thinking you God's gift of football. Because the game was here before you, it will continue while you're here and for damn sure is going to continue afterwards. That's different when you look in at someone that almost looks like a mirror reflection. So that's to answer your question a very long-winded way, that's why it's important to have that representation. And you see you see that. You see that. I'm not saying that Tampa doesn't have any issues, but Tampa got a lot of black coaches. I don't see Tampa Bay Bucking is wa'am. There's also leadership, Bruce Ari and there's Tom Brady who comes in at in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their, th. th. th. their, th. thi, thi, their, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. thi. thi veteran, he's been there, done that, and won some Super Bowls. Tom could tell people like, look, the way we do it, the way we win it is we tighten up in all areas on and off the field, okay? Cool, but there's also like, it's just different when you when you see respect that. Also, you know Tom Brady dedicated, he gave up his marriage.

Okay. I should have said. Listen, they're working it out. They working it out. That's what we heard. Word on the street. Well, Nate Burlson, thank you so much. We love you every morning on CVS mornings as well. I'm sitting the best to everybody over there. Gail and Gail. the homie Blad, everybody over there. Yeah, no doubt. I'll tell Blad and Gail and Tony said, what's up? And listen, before you get me out here, I just want to say, I appreciate you, been a fan of yours for a long time. I know you have been doing this for decades and a lot of the work that you have done, not everybody sees, but you are one of the leaders, not just in the leaders, the leaders, the leaders, the leaders, and the leaders, and the leaders, and the leaders, and the leaders, and the leaders, and the leaders, and the leaders, and the leaders, and the the thi, and thi, and their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, to, and, and, to, and, and, and, and, and, to, and, to, and, and, and, to, and, to, and, and, and, to, and, and, and, to, and, to, and, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, they.a, they.e, to, to, toe, toe.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.a, toe.a, toe.a, toe.a, toe.a, toe.a, toe, to,, not just in a comedic space, but I've seen you grow into this

businessman who works in front of the camera and behind it. And I don't know if you get your flowers a lot, but you deserve it, man. You deserve it. Anytime I see your name or hear your voice, my ears perk up, man, because I know you're either going to be dropping knowledge or you're going to have me in tears, and that's quite the combination. Brother, thank you so much for that. And I appreciate you for coming and going beyond the scenes with us. No doubt. Let me get some free NFL tickets. I got you.

Tell me the game. I'll hook you up. The dolphins just came to New York. Damn, never mind. Next season. After the break, we will speak with Colette v. Smith, who was the first black woman coach in the NFL during her time with the New York Jets. We'll talk with her after the break. We'll be right back. Hey, everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show coming out every Thursday. We're going're gonna be talking about the election, earnings calls.

What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're gonna be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. Beyond the Scenes, we are back. Now we are still talking about black coaches in the NFL. Joining me now is a former coach for the New York Jets, and you know, the way the Jets

is looking these days, she might need to go and go back, talk to them a little bit. But more importantly, she was the first black female coach in the NFL. Collette v. Smith, how you're doing today? What's happening in Roy Wood? It's nice to see. I'm doing good. Now, is the job occupation of coach like president,

where even when you're not doing it no more, you're still coach. And you get referred to? Absolutely. Nobody wants to come to my house to watch football because I'm pausing, muting, freezing the frame, checking out the alignment, their foot positioning, and people get mad. And I'm like, you can leave my house. It's fine. Why are you having a tape session in the middle of a Super Bowl, coach?. That's not how you're supposed to watch football. It is. That, well, your ass need to go into the room,

like Peyton Manning and them. You need to have a separate Manning cast while the rest of us. I take notes. I send notes to my former players, wherever they are with the bears, here's what you did right. I can't help myself. So at that time you were one of one, you know, in terms of becoming the first black female coach to be in the NFL ranks. How did you get there? But more importantly, did you ever realize how much of a unicorn you were while you were setting down this path? You know what I never, never thought about that I might have been a unicorn in this arena. For me, I just loves football. And I started playing football when I was 42 years old, professionally at least.

You know, I played with the boys in the street when I was a kid, but I wasn't allowed to play, organized football. What Pop Warner. How absurd is that? So, for instance... And Pop Warner's age with the girls are bigger than the boys. That part. We outgrow boys in the early stages, you're right. But I wasn't allowed to play organized. So being a coach in the NFL was not a dream. How could I have that dream? That dream was stolen from me. So, um, you know, Billy, the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, that thin, th, th, how, how, how, thin, thin, how, how th, how th, how th is, how th is, how th is, how that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that, how is, how is, how is, how is, how is, that that that that that that that th is that th is th is th is th is th. How, thi. How, thi, thi, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to thin, to to to thin, to to th to th to th th to to to to to the to the the the thi, thi, a dream. How could I have that dream? That dream was stolen for me. So, you know, Billie Jean King, Billy Jean King was the one that brought it to my attention.

That I was the first black woman to coach NFL history. And I looked at her like she was crazy. So you started playing organized ball at 42. First of all, what leagues are going on for 42 year old women? What, what was this? How do I? Because I love football. I watched that video game football. They show them the weird video game channel. It's like watching people play. Oh, that's so dope. It is fly. That's fly. But it's not necessarily a league for women in their 40s. It's just a league for women. their women. So 18 and older and there is no cut off. th. So, th. So, th. So, it. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. th. th. t. toge. the toge. the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their no cutoff. So if you're capable, physically capable to do this and you make the tryouts, you're in. So I was the old check on a team. So you play, you leave, and then at that point is it the traditional post-playing trajectory

that you had the same as the men where you played organized and then you find your way into different organizations? Did you know any other women that were coaching in the league at the time? Like, just set up the breadcrumbs of how you end up in the office of the New York Jets and them going to you, you're hired. So when I started playing football professionally, I wasn't wasn great player, but I was a great scholar of the game. So I had more bench time than I did on field time, but I was watching film and I was studying our opponents, and I was reading the playbook and asking questions, and so eventually when I retire it

from playing women's football, I went into coaching my women's team, which was scary as hell. But I was... Why was that scary? Because my teammates, my peers, these are players that play better than me, but I knew what to do in my brain, my body was like, we ain't having that. You know, so it was scary to go from your girl, like what up homie? to, okay, I need I need, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I need, I need, I need, I need, I need, okay, I need, okay, okay, I need, okay, I, I to, I to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, okay, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I to, I to, I to, I to, I to, I the, the, the, the, the, the.e. to, the. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to having that, you know. So it was scary to go from your girl, like what up, homie, to, okay I need two lines right now, we're working on W drills, we're covering deep past today, line up. That was hard to do. So eventually I made that happen. It was a hard transition, but I was up for the challenge. Eventually, my women's team had made me the executive director over marketing PR events,

all this stuff. So being a Jets fan, a lifelong, tired Jets fan, I reached out to the New York Jets to say, hey, look, we need some help over here. We're your sisters, what's up? And I probably wore them out. Like I was calling, call and calling, call it. And I believe they were just like, let let me, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we th. We, th. We, th, th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. Even, the? And I probably wore them out. Like I was calling, calling, calling, calling. And I believe they were just like, let's just call this chick back,

because she gonna keep calling if we don't just give her a call. But when they called me, we were cool. They loved me, rightfully so. And I got invited to a Jett's practice. And Roy, at that time I was like I'm busy I'm doing real estate, I'm doing football, I'm coaching, I'm doing the marketing, I don't got time for this. Then when I thought about it I said I could learn from NFL coaches so I could bring that high level of coaching skills back to my women so I went.

But what ended up happening was I met the then head coach of the New York Jets coach Todd Bowles, one of the very few black men that are in head coach positions. And he and I talked shop. Yeah, he's in Tampa Bay now. Yes, and he's got his championship ring. Yeah, he does. But so I got hired directly through him. I didn't come through a program. I didn't come from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from the run the run the run the run the run the run the run the run the run the run the run hired directly through him. I didn't come through a program. I didn't come from anybody's, you know, from the Rooney Rule or the Bill Watch. Diversity initiative. Right, I came in because I had a jackhammer, you know, but I just came banging on in. And we talk shop and he realized I was serious about this and I knew my stuff. So he gave me a shot. Okay, but then being that you didn't come through

those traditional avenues of hire or the, let's just call it the Affirmative Action Highway, for lack of a better phrase, did that gain you more respect or less respect from the other players and coaches while you were within the Jets organization, like how much, how you were hired, bols brought to in in in in in in in in in in in that, so, so, so, so, so, so, that, that, that, that, th, that, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th.................................. th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. theean, thean, toean, thean, thea.a. thea. thea. thea, were hired Bowles brought you in so to a degree that protects you because people have to trust you based on his

pedigree. Correct. But when Bowles ain't around everybody knows that the energy can sometimes shift. So how respected were you within the organization amongst the other players and coaches because you're the first black woman to be on an NFL sideline like this is not, this is new for them too. Yeah, totally. You know, I came in, all of the players gave me the utmost respect. And I don't think anybody knew per se that I didn't come in through a program, that I was hired directly through their head coach.

That wasn't talked about. If it was, I I I I I I I I I I I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, the the the the the the the the the the the th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thia, thi, thi, thate, thate, thoes, too, too, too, too, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, toe, toea, toea, toea.a. toea. toea. And, toea.a. And, toea, toea, toea, toe,. That wasn't talked about. If it was, I wasn't in that room or on that phone call, but the players were great. You know, to be very clear here, there's always going to be one sucker. One guy that's hard to deal with, and I had one. He was a coach and he did not make my life comfortable by any means and he let me know it and that was challenging. Do you think how much of that was based on you snuck in because you're a woman? Or just because you're a woman? Like you didn't go through what I consider to be the proper trajectory or was it strictly flat out you're a woman? I don't care what you know, I don't care how cool your schemes are and what plays you draw up,

you need to be in the kitchen. You know what? I really don't know why. I believe it's because who she thinks she is. And when I tell you, our very first conversation with this particular coach, he looked at me. I'd never forget he was sitting there at his desk like this. And I walked in excited.

And I was like, I know where you play, I know where you coach, I know where you scouted. I've been following you, I did my research, and he looked at me. And then he turned back to the computer, like I wasn't even there. And I backpedal. So if anybody knows anything about football playing a defensive back, that's what I played and coached. I backpedaled out the office like, what intarnation is going on? I'm thinking I'm getting hazed or this is a joke. He kept it going.

He kept it going. Talk to me a little bit just in terms of persevering through that and being a woman in that space because like if there's people like that within an organization their there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, their their their their their their their th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to be to be the, the, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, theateateateateateateateateateateateateatl.a, theateateatl, theateateatl, thatl, thateatl. theat, th woman in that space because like if there's people like that within within an organization, then there have to be people like that in theory somewhere in the front offices, which means there has to be people like that on high in New York at the NFL at the League office level. So like when we look at the Rooney Rule, we're talking earlier to Nate about the ruleoney Rule. Like, you know, do you think that's still effective in terms of figuring out a way to create a diversity pipeline into the NFL or have teams figured out a way around it? Like, are they kind of, like, kind of like with the Brian Flores Dolphins lawsuit where you

interviewed me, but you already knew who you was going on a dummy run. Like, is the Rooney Rule still doing anything to fix the problems? I think without the Rooney Rule, we'd have less minorities in the NFL. I think there should be more, but I think that people have learned the loopholes around the Rooney rule, you know, I mean, it's disgusting what goes on, but what happens is it's a good old boys' club, right? It's a good old boys club. I know you from LSU or from Oklahoma State or the Ohio State. Or you're my childhood friend or, right? And that part, nepotism, right?

I'm happy the Rooney Rule is there, but I don't think it's being utilized completely the right way, right? And so we're always on a continuous, when I say we, I mean black folks, we're always trying to prove ourselves all the time. There are some skilled-ass coaches that need to be in head coach positions, right? but we have more work to do. You know, we can't the to. you know, we can, the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to to be to be to be completely the right. to be to be completely to be completely to be completely to be to be to be completely to be to be to be to be to be to be to be completely completely to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to do to do to do to do to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their th. their th. their their the right. the right. the right. their th. their their the. tooo. tothat need to be in head coach positions, right? But we have more work to do. You know, we can't micromanage everybody. And the end of the day, you know, a franchise, a particular team should have some kind of right to how they handle their team, but you have to abide by these rules. So, they're finding loopholes. How much, you know, and again,

your situation was a little different in how you got in with the Jets. But how much does the Rooney Rule also create a traumatic experience for the black or women candidates for these jobs by giving them false hope, and then having it dashed. Does that make it worse for black and women candidates trying to enter into the league?

No, that's life. That's what we've experienced our whole life, right? Whether it be corporate level, I know that firsthand. You know, I could come in more qualified than the next person for a corporate job in near Manhattan. and I don't get the job and I find out who did. I'm like, I'm more qualified than she is. So this is not, I'm not new to that game.

Probably most of us are not new to that game. I think just having our foot in the door can't actually bring us more hope. Like I was close. So I'm going to keep pounding. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, but th, but th, but th, but th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th thin, th, thin, thin, th, th, th, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, I'm tho, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I, I, I'm, I, I, I, I, I'm, I, I th, I th, I'm, I th, I th, I th, I, I th, I th, I th, I th, th, th, th, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, thoooooo, thoo, tho pounding. Okay, but then to that point, does it, because based on what you said, what you said, an assistant coach at the Jets giving you the ice grill, even though you were qualified, even though you came in, baptized with the blessings of his boss, does this new rule, so the NFL got this new rule, right? Where all 32 teams, you got to either have a female, the female, to to to have to have the the th. th. to have thememem to have that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, because, their, their, because, their, their, their, because, their, their, their, their, the blessings of his boss, does this new rule, so the NFL got this new rule, right, where all 32 teams, you got to either have a female or a person of color as an offensive assistant.

This is mandated diversity. Those candidates who were hired based on a mandate. Of course it increases the number of coaching opportunities, you know, whatever, like you can build your way up, but does that force them into a hostile work environment? Is it a good way to increase numbers? I mean, I think it's a great way to increase numbers. But listen, it's a roll the dice. You know, I could be mandated to be hired by the Rooney Rule, okay, by the mandate. I'm in here and you don't like that, but I'm going to come in here and work my butt off and you're going to see why I'm here, right? It's just fair.

It's just completely fair. And so, I mean, I don't think anything scares us. I don't think about the future like that when it comes to, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, well, it, it, it, it, it, it might, it might, it might, it might, it might, it might, the thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. I don't think about the future like that when it comes to, well, it might be hostile, it might not be. This coach said that was wrong to me, I'll tell you something, Roy. My dad and I would speak on the phone every night and say, hey, how was it? He would ask me, how was it today? I'm like, oh my God is great. I love it. I love it. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I love. I'll to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. I'll. I'll. I'll tell. I'll tell. I'll tell. I'll tell you. I'll tell. I'll tell you. I'll tell you. I'll tell you. I'll t one jerk. And after a few days of this, a week or two of this, my dad was like, why don't you speak

to, you know, why don't you tell Bowles? And I said, I'm the only woman coach up in here. I'm not about to be like, he's not treating me nice. I'm not going the best I could. Coach Bowles knew nothing about it. Other coaches saw the way he would treat me. Players saw it, you know. And it wasn't like he was he was saying anything nasty to me. His look alone was almost like, shut up. Or if I was coaching, he would walk in and Roy and give me a look. And then I was like, do you think that, I think I know the answer to this question, but if if if if if if if if if if if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm the the the the the the the the the the they I'm the the the that, I think I know the answer to this question, but if I'm thinking it, I know our listeners are thinking that's where I got to ask you.

What responsibility, if any, do the other staffers have to making sure that diversity hires are treated with some degree of respect? Or is it not their responsibility to go around and police every meaning within the organization? As a human being, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th th th th th th th th th thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, if I thi, if I thi, if I thi, but I thi, if I thi, if I thi, if I thi, if I thi, if I thi, if I thi. thi, if I thi, if I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. If, if I, if I th. I th. I th, if I thi, if I thi, if I thi, if I thi, if I'm thin, if I'm thin, if I'm thin, if I'm thin, if I'm thin, if I'm thin, if I'm thi thi thi thi thi thi to go around and police every meaning within the organization? As a human being, I think everybody has a responsibility to check that, right? But then as a coach, we don't have time to be worried about outside things that are actually inside but we're getting our job done. So the other coaches that saw it, that may have seen it, they would look like to him and then we would do some strategizing on special teams. So you know everybody was just trying to stay dedicated to the game plan at hand and that was to have the best team and create the best players that we can get. So by solving the problem, it almost creates a distraction to a degree.

Correct. Within the organization. Yeah. Well, there has been some degree of progress. Last year in the league we had six women coaches this year. There's 15. Are you happy with the increase in women coaches since you became a coach, but more importantly is what's happening now with the 32-team mandate is that the best way

to achieve diversity in the league? Listen, any way to get us in there is the best way. Otherwise we wouldn't have been, right? So, listen, if I had it my way, I would drive up with a van filled with serious women coaches, and I drive to every team, every franchise team would say here you got to, bye, and I drive to the next team. Like a newspaper delivery, you just throwing just throwing women out the window like a news so then let's let's in here. Why is it important for the NFL to hold the team owners accountable, you know, to the

diversity and inclusion regulations that they put in place? Because you can have all these regulations, but if ownership is going to work around them, what the hell are we accomplishing? Like, when you look at, like, and I know this isn't apples to apples, when you look at what's happening in the NBA with the Phoenix Sons, and you have an ownerererererer onernernernernernernernernerner that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that is that is that is that is that is that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. the th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi in the NBA with the Phoenix Sons. And you have an owner that is now being forced to sell his team on some Donald Sterling, LA Clippers-esque, we found racism in the documents. And then the John Gruden being forced to resign from the Las Vegas Raiders,

because we found racism in the document. And then the Washington commanders, right, right. Being rumored to have a bunch of thee, toe, toe, toe, the toe, the toe, to, the to, to, the, the, the, to, to have a bunch of nonsense being going on behind the scenes that's rooted in a lot of racism and discrimination so you know how important is it that the league do what they need to do to make sure that the owners are held accountable? Vitally, vitally important and I'm down with that life? I'm down with it because if we don't get it checked, if the NFL League as a whole does not check these owners, these team owners, it will just keep happening. And we'll be nowhere further in 20 years than we were 50 years ago.

So that's progress to me. I'm excited. Listen, I'm extremely proud of what the NFL is trying to do to make positive change within this league for diversity and inclusion. I lie. One more question. Do you think the fans care? Do you think they know or care about the imbalance ratio between coaches and players? Not all the fans give a crap. Not all them give a crap. They just want to see their team win but I tell you this the black fans care and the women care and if you think about this women make up damn there 50% of viewership purchasing of apparel paraphernalia so they better treat us right.

And listen, if we were all to get together, we being a minority, we ain't, I said ain't, we ain't the minority. Let's be very clear about that. So y'all are the fiscal majority, but I'm gonna come to staff and y'all are 2%. Hello, right. So we've hired our one woman. Perhaps you would like to be a lowlady to be a to be a to be a to be a to be to be to be to to be to to to be to get to get to get to get all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all to get to get to get to get to get all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get. to get. to get. to get. to get. to get. to get. to get. to to to get. the the the the the the the to the the the to the the tooe.a. the the the too. the the the to to the the to to the to to to to to to our one woman. Perhaps you would like to be a lowly paid cheerleader for 75 dollars a game. Hmm. That's a damn shame. They're athletes. No, we don't care. And while we're talking about the cheerleaders. I don't care. Look, put some clothes on them chicks. Okay. Now hang on now. Hang on now. Now, look I've been with you this whole conversation. You're starting to lose me. Okay.

Listen, if that's the case, I would love to see the players walk around or run around the field in a jockstrap. Okay? We don't do that. Put some clothes on those women. Oh, goodness. It's always a pleasure to talk to you and let's not make the next ne you the other at a Nix game a year from now, please. I'll see you there soon. Could you please? Yes sir. Collette v. Smith, excuse me, coach. Always, once a coach, always a coach? Always a coach. Always coach. Thank you so much for going beyond the scenes with us today. Thank you of thooe thi tho. Thank you th you th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the. the. Thank you to to the. Thank you to the. to to the. to the. to the. to to to to to to the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to please. to please please please, to please, to please, to please, to please, to please, to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the to to the to thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the. the toda. today. today. today, today, today, today, to to to to to to to to to to to the homie Nate and thank you the listener for going beyond the scenes. We'll see you later. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond Universe by searching the Daily Show,

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