The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Transracial Adoption & Navigating Racial Identity | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: September 17, 2023

Transracial adoption has increased over the years and the experience of being raised by adoptive parents of a different race is not without complications. Host Roy Wood Jr. chats with author of the book All You Can Ever Know, Nicole Chung, and author of the book Surviving the White Gaze, Rebecca Carroll, about their first-hand experiences as transracial adoptees. They discuss their upbringings in predominantly white cities, why adoptive families often don’t talk about race, and their lifelong journey navigating their racial identity.   Original air date: November 1, 2022See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You may be tempted to skip this ad, but don't. Marketers want their audience to stick around. And with Paramount Ads Manager, you can advertise your business on the biggest shows on TV for 30 unskippable seconds. Run your ads in premium content on Paramount Plus, and over 15 major networks, with hits, shows, movie, sports, and more. All on the biggest screen in the house. Put your business and show business with Paramount Param Param Param Param Param Param Param Param Param Param Param Param for to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the their to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their..s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a to Ads Manager.paramount.com. That's ADS Manager. Paramount.com to learn more.

Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can't to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to show to show to to to to to to to show to to show to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the too.a.a.aruter.com slash zip. Zip recruiters smart technology identifies top talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job, zip recruiters powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for it and you can use zip recruiters pre-written invite to apply

message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner. Ditch the other hiring sites. let Zip Recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address, zip recruiter. the smartest way to hire. You're listening to Comedy Central.

Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scencends. The podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. This, this, this is what you got to this podcast is right you ever be a little hangry all right you go to the snack machine and you put a dollar bill in that vending machine and you push that button B27 and them hot Cheetos start the little thing their chitos fall down and then two bags of cheetos come out to Vend machine. Now you got an extra snack and you got extra hot Cheeto dust on your fingers and you didn't even have to shake the damn Vendemachine.

That's what this podcast is. I'm Roywood Jr. Today we're talking about a topic that has come up quite a bit on the show, transracial adoption and the experience of being raised by adoptive parents of a different race. Trevor has covered this issue and interviewed my next two guests on the show. So I'm excited to welcome them back to the Daily Show universe and have a more in-depth conversation with them about their first-hand experience. First up, I'd like to welcome the author of the book, All You Can the to' Ever Know, Nicole, how you doing?

I'm okay, Roy. Thank you for having me here. I'm sorry for getting a little excited about Cheetos. Yeah, that's, that's what's not. It's totally understandable. That was great. Also joining us on the program is the author of Surviving the White Gaze, Rebecca. Rebecca, good day to you as well. And to you, Royoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoyoy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy Roy, Roy, Roy, Roy, Roy, Roy, Roy, Roy, Roy, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. Thank, th. Thank th, th, th, th. Thank, to to th. Thank, th. Thank, th. Thank, th. Thank, th. Thank, th. Thank, to to th. Thank, to to to th. Thank, to th. Thank, th. Thank, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, to to th, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tho. well. And to you, Roy, thanks so much for having me. And hey, Nicole, it's great to see you always. Always lovely to see you too, Rebecca.

Now, for those of you listening and watching who were not familiar with these two wonderful people stories, now, both of you were adopted and raised by white parents. Nicole, we'll start with you. Tell us about your experience growing up in a trans racial household, and what were some of the challenges you faced growing up in a predominantly white town? Sure, so I grew up in a very small community in southern Oregon. I usually tell people, it's like not the part of Oregon you've heard of, which is Portland. And we were very far from major urban centers.

It was an extremely white area. Like I was probably the only Asian kid at my elementary school just to give you a sense. And I did not meet another Korean-American or become close to them until after I left home. So it's kind of this extreme racial isolation. I grew up in a really loving family, loving white working class family. And, you know, I think until I started school, right, I was like aware of being

different, of being Asian, not like the rest of my family. I had words like Asian and Korean. I knew my birth parents had been immigrants to this country when I was born and then placed. But it wasn't something I thought about much in my day-to-day life, you know, and it wasn't until I started going out into the world, out to school, you know, seeing, hey, like I'm really the only person like me in these rooms, you know, that I really began to feel like sort of out of place, and then, you know, with school came experiences of racism. Like I started hearing anti-Asian slurs and being bullied by that at a fairly young age,

like seven, eight years old. And again, the complication of this right is that I had been raised by really well-meaning, loving white people, who had been specifically instructed not to talk to me about my racial identity, who'd been told essentially assimilate her her her her her her her her her her her to to to to to to to talk to talk to to to talk to talk to talk to to talk to to to to talk to talk, to to talk, to to to talk, to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, told, too, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th.... And, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, tooomea, thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, to talk to me about my racial identity, who'd been told essentially, assimilate her, don't talk about race. It'll all be fine. By who? By who?

Okay, so like the judge who finalized my adoption, asnoption to their adoption agency, theate as an example, who did their home study. As an expert was literally, They asked social workers that they worked with. They asked the adoption agency who did their home study. How you going to tell? All right, you can take this Korean baby, but don't you teach them none of that Korean stuff? My mother was like, I thought they'd at least recommend a book or something.

And no one did. I mean, so they were doing what they were told, but of course they weren't weren't weren't weren't they weren't they weren't they weren't they weren't prepared for the possibility that I'd encounter prejudice in our community. Now, forgive me for a second. My Alabama brain is just trying to process everything you just said to me. Now, what you're saying is that they were took, how do you legislate it? What happens if they catch you eating some kimchi or some Korean barbecue? Do they take you back and reclaim you as a ward of the state? Like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, to, their, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, theay, take you back and reclaim you as a ward of the state? Like, how could they even? Not to get ahead of ourselves, but I just want to say because it needs to be said and

it's such an integral part of what a transracial adoption is, is that this country was founded on the premise of white people deciding what constitutes a family, when families can be made, how much they are worth, literally, when they can be torn apart or kept together. And so, given that that is what this country is founded on, any kind of social construct, racism, sexism, misogyny, adoption, which is a process of taking somebody else's child. It's going to have remnants of that history. Okay, so then let's talk a little bit about your experience, Rebecca, because you

essentially came up in Oregon East, which I call New Hampshire. That's exactly right. Now, New Hampshire, you know, I've only gone there for the primaries, which is also very white as well. But what was that like for you? You know, how similar was your experience growing up, you know, over there on the East Coast? Very similar in that my family was quite loving? very, very idealistic, artists, Bohemian. But I would, the state was itself 99.1% white when I wouldn't, my family moved there with me, so I became the first black person in the town as an infant. And, you know, the only black kid through all of my schooling. And like Nicole, you know, started to experience, you know, it was sort of a, it was sort of a paradox, right?

Because in my family, I was quite loved and quite, you know, I was a very outgoing child, and I loved to dance and be creative and I was sort of a little bit of a star in my family but then when I went outside of my family into schools and the real world outside of the bubble you know I was not prepared I simply was not prepared and and like you know Nicole's parents although my my adoption was open and kind of a handshake deal which which ended up, as you can imagine, disastrously. They were very well meaning, but they just didn't think about it.

They just didn't think about it. And that, again, is a real problem with language around adoption and the way that we talk about adoption, we're still using words like lucky and gift and grateful and gratitude and love is the only answer and all these kinds of things that we as adoptees know just isn't true. How did your family process racism when you came home and said today the girl called my hair this or they called me a black ass this, or I'm sure teachers were saying some slick stuff that they shouldn't have been saying to black kids at their time in a place

like that. When you brought those issues home to your parents, how did they handle that? They didn't. They did not handle that. And actually, at a certain point, I stopped telling them because they didn't, there was, you know, they they, thention, thention, thention, thention, thention, that that that that that, that that, that that that that that that that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that, that's that's that's that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thateeeea, that's that's that's that's toeea, thea, thea, thatea, thea, the an telling them because they didn't, there was, you know, unintentional gas lighting, right? Are you sure? That's what you heard? Are you sure he called you a nigger? Are you sure somebody tried to pet your hair? And I think that they, again, unintentional gas lighting, I think that for them it was like, I can't imagine that, you know, nice, you're, our nice neighbors

or whomever, or even our teachers would say something like that. And then even if they did, there was no language to process it, no contextualization, no, all their, their reference point was Martin Luther King as so many white parents of black children at a certain era. Nicole, I see you, I see you jump in there, Nicole, like, how does that colorblind approach do a disservice to children that are in a trans racial home? Yeah, I mean, if I could just answer your last question first, like, like Rebecca, I didn't really talk about it at home. I just felt it really wouldn't be understood.

I did once try to tell my family that I'd been made fun of for being adopted. You know, I didn't mention like the slurs, but I said, and this kid was like, your parents didn't want you. And, like, kind of their response was, well, everybody gets to use for something, right? And, you know, they gave me examples, and I'm sure they were trying to empathize, they were. But what that competition kind of told me at a young age was like as well-meaning as they were, they expected these were going to be safe environments for me, because they were safe for them. And they thought there were a few actual racist or bigots in our town because they were not among their targets ever. And so, you know, they're sending me to these places and expecting them to be

like safe environments and supportive. And, you know, it wasn't the case and I did not know how to shatter that illusion for them. I really didn't. Even at that age, I was like, it's my job here to like protect you in a way. Like th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus, thus, that that that, that, that, to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be, to be to be, to be, to be to be to be, to be to be, to be to be to be, to be to be to be to be, to be to be to be, to be, the thr, thr, thr, thr, thr. theat, theat, the theat, theat, theat, that, the that, to be to be to be to be to be to be you've always told me what really matters is the kind of people that we are. And I was learning slowly that that was not true to everybody, right? But I didn't, how was I supposed to educate adults in my life about that at the age of eight and nine? And so I do think it did me a disservice, but I will say I don't think my adoptive family was especially worked by those experts, quote unquote experts, who told them to essentially ignore my racial identity either. Because it did, it made these conversations a lot harder. We had them a lot later.

There could have been like a lot more openness and trust and just support. I think they loved me and they would have wanted to know how to better support raising a child of color in our town. And the fact is, like, they were kind of failed by that system too, even though the whole system, as Rebecca was saying, was essentially set up to cater to their needs as white adopters, they were still not well served by it. And I think about that a lot. So if these families aren't given the tools that they need, and they also possesses their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be, their, too, their, toe, toe, toe, tooes, the a, tooes, tooes, tooes, tooes, tooes, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe.a.a, toe.a, their, toe.a, to bea, to bea, to bea, their, toe.a, toe.a, toe.e.a, tooombse.e.eck.eck.a, tooombseck.a, tooombse.a, tooombseck.a, asa, asa, a blind spot to some of the horrors in the world because they just straight up having to witness them or haven't had conversations about them.

How much of a responsibility to adopt a families that are creating a trans-racial home? How much of a responsibility do they have to learning and educating and then trying to take down some of these systems of oppression. Or it's just being a good parent, shouldn't that be enough? I adopted your ass. What the hell else you want me to do every day? Right.

I mean, that's unfortunately very commonly... I hope they don't say it like that with an Alabama accent, but... Yeah. I mean, I really feel like if your reference point is the only reference point for black folks is Martin Luther King, or if you don't have any black folks in your community, or if you don't have any black art on your wall, you should not be raising black children who become black adults. And that's the other thing, right, is that when we're little, it's like, you know, everybody's cute and everybody's, it's playtime, and it's fun. It's fun. And it's fun. It's, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you don't, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you, if you don't, if you don't, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, that when we're little, it's like, you know,

everybody's cute and everybody's, it's playtime and it's fun and it's so and so forth. But when I got grown and came out into the world as a black woman, my parents didn't recognize me really, and they didn't really know how to talk to me or how to interact with me and my child and my world. So, you know, I feel very, very strongly that it cannot be intentional about good intentions. It has to be about a real commitment to community and culture in a way that is not exploitative or that feels like appropriation. But that's, that's work, right? And for the most part, that, and, for the most part, to the ta. to th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi thr-the thi, thi, thi, thr-the thr-the thr-the thr-the thr-the thr-the thrown thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the thi the thi thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the to thi to to the the to, but that's that's work, right? And for the most part, which is why we have systemic racism, is that it takes work. You've got to get out of your self and your privilege and your power. Who wants to get out of their privilege and power? I mean, it's got to be, it's got to feel great. Too much work. I, I, that. I, that. I, that. I, that, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's work, that's work, that's work, that's work, that's work, that's work's work, that's work's work's work, that's work's work's work, that's work's work, that's work's work, that's work, that's work wants to get out of their privilege and power?

I mean, it's gotta be, it's gotta feel great. Too much work, I mean, you hear so much in adoption, these days especially, and much more so than we were growing up, Rebecca, about like celebrating a child's birth culture, making sure they're connected to that. And, you know, honestly, I think of that, I call that, I that that that that that that that that that that that that the fun the fun the fun.. the fun. that, I the fun. the fun. th. th. th. thin, I thin, I thin, I th. I th. I th. I that, I thi. I thi, I that, I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th, I th, I th, I their, I their, I their, I their, I their, I their, I their, I'm their, I'm their, I'm their, I'm their, I'm their, I'm their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thin. th. today. today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, to today, today, th. th. th, I call that the fun part, right? Because it is, it's something the family can do together. It feels very affirming. It is a lot harder to do what you're talking about, to really like center that child's experience, to really take a good hard look at your neighborhood,

your community, the schools your kids will go to. Maybe like the religious community that you're part of and ask yourself yourself, to be a child of color, a black child, an Asian child in this environment. I mean, it really needs to start from that very basic place. And I think that's just a hard part. It's a real stumbling block for a lot of people because, I mean, again, like one of the things about being white in this country is if you don't want to think about race, in a way you don't have to. The problem is it shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't shouldn't that shouldn't that shouldn't that shouldn't that shouldn't that shouldn't that shouldn't that shouldn't that make that evident to you, you know, and so that's that's something to consider like I

really agree with a lot of what you're saying. Now we talk about your relationship with with you and your parents and you and society, but what about your relationship with yourself? You know when you come up as something, you're essentially both black swans to a degree within your environments, you know, as a child and as an adult, like was there ever a time that you didn't feel black enough or Asian enough? Like once you got outside of the white Pleasantville bubbles that you were raised in and you went to that first family function out of town or you went to that first family function out of town or you went to that one trip to the mall and you saw someone who looked like

you, walk me through those moments where you didn't feel like, when you felt a legitimate disassociation with your own culture. Again, it's like a, it is like a paradox or an oxymoronic feeling, which is that every time I saw a black image, easy reader on electric company, my first dance teacher was black. It was, I was drawn, but I also, it was such a disconnect because I didn't have any sense of why I would belong to that person or that culture or that race. And I do want to also say that no matter how much we reintegrate, you know, even as adults in college, you know, I founded the first black student union, you know,

I found my people. I mean, being in black community has been so enormously important to me. As much as we try, those formative years were white. Those formative years centered the perception, the morals, the customs, everything, white. I mean, I sat at a table, a dinner table, and everybody was white. I went to school and everybody was white. So I feel like we've all had those experiences of not being enough or not being whatever it is, Asian enough or black enough or whatever, and really trying to grapple with that kind of grief,

because it is, it's a loss. But also having to reconcile with the fact that we that, that le with that kind of grief, because it is, it's a loss. But also having to reconcile with the fact that we were in our formative years raised by and within a white-centered environment. It's interesting, I've, one of the wildest questions actually that I get a lot as an adoptee author is like, so did you basically think that you were white for most of your life? And like, the answer is no. Like, I think. Right. All I have to do is open my eyes, right? I always knew. But because like Rebecca is saying, white was the default. It was like the world that I swam in.

All I really understood was that, oh, I am like, not like this. Like, it's like I was defining't I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining I was defining. in terms of a negative. I didn't know what I was. I knew what I wasn't. I knew I existed beyond the bounds of what was normal, accepted like, okay, welcome, in my community. And yeah, that definitely, it definitely left, you know, scars, not to be dramatic that I think we're hard to grapple with until, as you said Roy, you sort of take your first steps out into the world. You see what the rest of the world is like, and thri, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi, thin, the, their, their, their, the, the, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, you see what the rest of the world is like. And then you're trying to reconcile like the distance between how you were raised and how the world is. And I think what's also interesting about your experience, Nicole, is that to a degree you had even less representation on television on television. I don't know how much you were allowed people on TV than Asians in varied roles.

It wasn't as diverse as it is now. It wasn't as boxed and stereotypically as it is now for black people. But I would imagine that to have been an issue as well. So, yeah. We have to take a break, but let me ask you all this real quick. When you got older and you started making the realizations and the connections of okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. I missed a lot of stuff about me growing up. How did you all, you know, in what ways have you tried to reconnect with your heritage over the years? You know, I know that there is a lot, Rebecca, that is lost because the base level foundation software

was never installed on the desktop. But when you look back at your life, are there any milestones that really hit home for how you felt disconnected? And in what ways have you all tried to reconnect with your heritage? I mean, it's definitely the work of a lifetime. I'll never feel like it's done. the the thioosososososososos. the the the thiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the that, that, that, that, that, too too too too too too too too too too too too too theeeat, the, the, it's definitely the work of a lifetime. I'll never feel like it's done. The biggest most obvious way for me was when I became an adult and I was pregnant with my first child, I decided to search for my birth family. So as I mentioned they were Korean immigrants. They had just

moved to this country like a year or two before I was born and adopted. So they were here. There's a long convoluted bureaucratic process to search for them, but I. But. But, their, their, their, their, their, their, th, their, th, th, their, th. And, their, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to be to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, and, and, and, and, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their, their, toe. And, their, their, thi. And was a long convoluted, bureaucratic process to search for them, but I ended up finding them and reconnecting the same month my child was born. So it's like weirder than fiction in that sense. And I wouldn't say it's been easy. Nothing about reunion or like open adoption I think is without its massive complications. But it was really important to me to be able to ask these questions I'd had for a lifetime and here, like, just to think about what my life would have been like if I hadn't been adopted, if I'd grown up in this family, if I'd been raised in a Korean family. And I've become really close to my biological sister, who was raised in our Korean family.

It's almost like seeing what like an alternate version of my life would have been like in a way. I've th th th th Korean than when I'm with my birth family, because there's just so many things that they know and I don't, but it has been really important to me, obviously, to regain that little bit of connection and understand where I came from. Rebecca, how did you reconnect with your culture there? Because, you know, BT only gonna give you so much. I leaned in I mean every opportunity I had in terms of you know black student union black student groups in college after college I worked for I worked with the production company Black

Side which is known for Eyes on the Prize. I leaned at my first five books, our interviews with black writers and public intellectuals. I just, I inserted myself and took the hits, because there were definitely hits of like, you're not black enough, or what are you trying to do? Are you trying to reintegrate? So it was trial by fire a lot of the time...... thine, but I I I I I I I I I I I thine, but I thi.. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi, I thi, I thi, I I I I I I I I th. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I, I I I I I I I I I I I I, I I I I, I, I I, I, I, I, I, I, I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean. Irying to, I was trying to reintegrate. So it was trial by fire a lot of the time, but I guess I would say the main thing is was giving birth to my kid and seeing him now be as black as he wants to be and it's, you know, I finally have

that community and that's just, it's mind-blowing and it's that is what I waited for you know when I when he was when he was about four or five years old he saw a picture of me at four or five years old holding a frog and he said mommy why am I holding a frog and there it was right that was the moment that I had been waiting for. Well this is beautiful after break, I want to talk a little bit about your books that you wrote about these experiences, what inspired them, and some of the feedback slash backlash that you may have gotten from people from writing these books. This is a wonderful conversation about transracial adoption. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back.

Finding great candidates to hire can be like try and to find a to find a to find a to find a to find a to find a to find a the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at Zip Recruiter's smart technology identifies top talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job, Zip Recruiter's powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for it, and you can use Zip Recruiter's pre-written invite to apply message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner. Ditch the other hiring sites and let Zip Recruiter

find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address, Zip Recruiter. that Zip Recruiter. the smartest way to hire. It's been said that nice guys finish last. But is that really true? I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast,

and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk. We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy and monstrous self-devaring egos and we'll delve into the extraordinary power of decency. We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper and dare to confront a formidable empire. The art of fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on

the IHart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Let's talk a little bit about the books. Rebecca, I'll start with you. Now your memoir, Surviving the White Gaze. Let's just start off little bit about the books. Rebecca, I'll start with you. Now, your memoir, Surviving the White Gaze. Let's just start off the top. Why you choose that title? What are there other titles? What were some of the other? White folks stop looking at me? What's all staring at? Stop looking before I come over there? There was never another title. The first time I heard Tony Morrison explain what the white gaze was, I was in my early 20s and I was like, okay, that's it.

That is what I have been grappling with my entire life and I didn't have words for it. And I knew that I wanted the title to be ongoing, surviving, because I will be surviving the white gaze for my entire life. But that white gaze, as we've talked about earlier, is the default. It is the lens through which the world, our world in America is established. It is the way that systems are built and the way that laws are made and the ways that, you know, decisions on the spot, decisions are made. All of it is the white

gaze. And so it's very real for me to have survived it not just within my upbringing, but in the society in which I live. You know what's interesting about your upbringing, you know, because for me, I am, to a large part, the polterms, that's, that, that, the po po polip, the polip, the polip, the polip, the polip, the pol is, the polip, the pol is, the porific is, the poi, the poir is, their is, their is, their is, their is, their is, th, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you, the, you, the, you, you, you, you, the, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the society in which I live. You know what's interesting about your upbringing, you know, because for me, I am, to a large part, the polar opposite of you. You know, I came up in Birmingham City schools, predominantly black school systems, black teachers. I never had more than one white classmate until high school. I did not meet my first Latino until the seventh grade. Black church, black community, blackity, black, black. And there are a lot of people in that regard that I know who, when I went to the black college, I went to Florida A&M, there are a lot of black people that I know who their first interactions in a corporate or employed capacity was after college with white people and taking in all of this new information

and stimuli about what it's like to be seen and perceived a certain way. In an odd way, I feel like you're upbringing, Rebecca, because it was from day one, just white, that you are hyper-qualified to speak because you understand what it's like for adolescents to look at you versus an adult in a C-sweed or somebody who's being passive-aggressive, workplace harassment know, we talk about passive-aggressive workplace harassment as well. So how much did that upbringing help you write this book, you know, as uncomfortable as that was, how much of an education on whiteness did you get from your childhood? I'm very conversant in white people. I'm very, I am very well poised to be a white person whisper, although I declined that offer time and time again. I

think a lot about that and the numerous times that I've experienced micro macro aggression racism in the workplace and one which was so egregious that I went to a lawyer and explained the situation, and she said to me, you definitely have a case of racial discrimination. And my feeling was not victory. There's no victory in being right about racism. And so in the same way that I can be conversant in white spaces, it's not really, it doesn't really feel great.

So Nicole, your book, All You Can Ever Know, Walk me through the day that you sat and you decided, yeah, you know what? What I went through wasn't cool. I don't know what the solutions are completely, but we have to talk about where we are at least today with this issue. What inspired the book and also talk to us a little bit about the response you got when the book came out. I'll say that like the book was not the first time I'd written about adoption.

I still remember the very first piece I ever wrote about it. It was never published. I showed it to like like like like like like like the like the like th the like th th the like th th th the like th th the like th the like th th the like th th th th the like th th th the like the the the three the the theat thi the the the thi. I thi, the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book. I the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the the the the the thi. Wea. Wea. Wea. I'm, thi. I'm thia. I'm thia. I'm thia. I'm thia. I'm thia. I'm thia. I'm thi. It was never published. I wrote it like years ago. I showed it to like three people. I stuck it in a drawer. It was terrifying to me to be, it wasn't even just the vulnerability. It was facing this like wall of of half-truths and of comforting things that I'd told myself and that other people had told me for a lifetime. So writing about adoption did not th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the the to to to to to to to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the it the it the it the it the it th. It th. It th. It th. It to th. It th. It th. It to th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It th. It to th. It th. It the. It the. It was the. the. the. the. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the. to to did not come easily to me and I sort of practiced for years before the book happened. Because you had to undo your own the own I don't want to say wall of lies but the comforts that you had built up for yourself about your existence within that system? Just the disclaimers, right? like the whole let me reassure you that the whole let me reassure you that like I was basically like a happy, like well-adjusted child. I don't even know that's true by the way, right? But like that's, it was like these are things,

they're the weight of expectations on adoptees, starting as children is something that I don't think we talk about enough. Like from a very young age, especially if you're a different race than thrown some of the questions apart from nosiness is like, are you okay? Like, are you really okay? Is your family okay? You know, just tell me all about this because I don't understand. Especially maybe growing up in a super white area, like like Rebecca and I both did. So I was like this spokesperson for adoption from childhood that I never asked to be, but was always telling this story. And so yeah, to try to like reclaim that story to tell a different, much more complicated version of it,

you know, one that doesn't shy away from talking about race and the impact of racial isolation. That was a scary thing for me. And I don't know that I was worried about being attacked for it or backlash because I know you want to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to backlash, because I know you want to talk about that. I was just like, I've been telling myself this comforting story. I've been telling other people this comforting story, like actually going deeper into the truth. It was actually very difficult. But I wanted to because I had started to see, and honestly was inspired by lots of other adopters within the community like sharing their stories. I knew the truth was more complicated. I knew there were feelings and questions and like

racism that I've been grappling with for a lifetime. And I just wanted there to be like more stories. I'm always going to want more adoptee stories. And understanding my adoptive story and the fact that I don't have to choose between being Korean and an adoptee, like I am both, those are very, very important to me and very affirming. So that was kind of where the story came from. Did your family, well, Nicole, first to you and then to Rebecca, did your families read your books? Yes, so my adoptive parents, my birth father and my biological sister. I'll read it or did one one the one the one the one the one the one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one the one the one the the the the the the th. th. Did th. th my biological sister. I'll read the book before.

Did they read it or did one person read it and then gossip to the others and get it all wrong in a terrible game with telephone like that one time I talked about my daddy on a podcast and then everybody was checking me about talking about, sorry I'm bringing up personal stuff. Rebecca, what about your family? Yeah, it was more like that. I sent a galley to my mom, and she read it and said it was a gift, and then told my dad about some of the things I'd written in it, and he felt that it was an affront. And so she changed her mind about it. And my siblings, who are their biological children, for the most part, have been protective

of them. So it has not gone well. Okay. So how much, well, I guess it didn't matter if you were even taking that into account when you wrote the book, how your family might react to it. But what about the regular real world reactions to it? Was it as harsh as you know some of the people in your family? No, and let me also add that I waited a very, very long time. I am not a young gal. I waited a very long

time to write this book and it and I was seized by a moment to write this book, which was when Mike Brown was shot, and my son, who was seven or eight years old, asked if we were gonna get shot. And I suddenly was so enraged, by the way in which I had not been protected, by the way in which I had not been given tools to be a black parent,

the way that I had to figure this out with my child and protect my child. So I wrote it in part for them, right? Wouldn't you like to know what it was like for your black family member to grow up in this white family and have these experiences? Not the case. That said, the response from the adoption community, adoptees, transracial adoptees, I'm sure Nicole has had some, has been ferociously, I mean, just so hungry for this, for stories about transracial adopties and representation, and that has been, I mean, just deeply, deeply moving and so critically important and makes up to some degree for the rift with my family. But you know, that's also just dealing day and day out as a black woman in these streets, you know,

so it's there have been some less than kind things said. It's a, you know, it's like a double helix. It's like you're an adoptee and you're not being grateful and you're a black woman and you're being too loud. Now Nicole's already mentioned this to us but Rebecca to the whole Mike Brown point and we talk about trying to have a base of knowledge to pull from to to be a vessel to pour into our children, why was it important for you to find out who your biological parents were? Did you... Here's a better question? Did it go to where you thought it was going to go, you know, in terms of that journey?

What did you expect and how did it play out? Well, it's two parts. I didn't really have time to expect with my birth mother because I was 11, when, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, the, the, to, the the to, to, their, their, their, their, and their, and their, and their, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and how, and the, and the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, two parts. I didn't really have time to expect with my birth mother because I was 11 when I'm reunited with her, which was way too early. And I was deeply emotionally manipulated by her. She's white. And has a lot of care and qualities, but also a lot of appropriation, black

appropriation license that she takes and has taken. We are estranged. I met my birth father when I was in my early 20s and it was very, very overwhelming. His story was that I had been taken. He didn't have any say in the matter. He wanted me. He had grown up himself in orphanages and foster system. And so he felt, you know, like I feel about my kid, my kid. It's like, oh, I have black family now. I would like to keep you. But his claim is that, you know, oh, I have black family now. I would like to keep you. But his claim is that, you know, my white birth mother and her family cut him out because he's black. Did the question of why didn't you fight for me ever come up? And forgive me if I'm, if I'm,

no, no, no. Absolutely. He was, you know, he didn't really have the tools to fight, you know. He wasn't, he was not gainfully employed. He was all by himself. He didn't have any squad or family. And my white birth mother and her family were quite able to cut him out of the picture. Either with money or through the courts and being a black man and going against a white woman. Right. Yeah, yeah. Well, after the break, I want to dive into the way adoption is portrayed in Hollywood.

I'm very curious to get y'all thoughts on that, because as far as I can tell, with adoption, like, it's like, it's like different strokes or the adoptive kids goings th th th kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids kids, to to to to to get your thoughts on that because as far as I can tell with adoption like it's like It's like different strokes or then adoptive kids go murder you don't you don't you bring home that we're a child That's right that about sums up These murder babies we'll talk about that and also some solutions that families that are either thinking or have already created trans racial homes can do I can't wait to hear that advice about that this is beyond the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes.. the scenes. the scenes. the scenes. We the scenes. We. We. We'll the s. We'll the the the the the the th. We'll the the their their their their they. We'll the the the the them. We'll them. We'll them. We'll them. We'll them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. them. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. they. they. their. their their their their their they. their they. I they. I'll their their their they. I'm their their their their their their their their their the are either thinking or have already created trans racial homes can do. Can't wait to hear that advice about that. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Finding great candidates to hire

can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. thirecutter at ziprecruiter.com. SIP Recruiters smart technology identifies top talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job, zip recruiters powerful matching technology

start showing you qualified people for it. And you can use zip recruiters pre-written invite to apply message to personally to to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner. Ditch the other hiring sites and let Zip Recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address, zip recruiter.com slash zip. Again, that's zip recruiter.com slash zip.

Zip Recruiter, the smartest way to hire. It's been said that nigh skies finish last. But is that really true? I'm Tim Harford, host of The Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk.

We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy and monstrous self-devaring egos and will delve into the extraordinary power of decency. We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper and dare to confront a formidable empire. The art of fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Beyond the Scenes, we are talking trans-racial adoption and two wonderful authors have been usuring us through their experience, the cause and effects, the positives and negatives of this, and now

we need to talk about, you know, the fact that you all wrote these books, which means that you also avoid in the literary system where people are not being properly educated about the issues that you faced your entire lives, when the truth is that more often than not, we just regular folks, we get our education from TV and movies. You know, like, I'm gonna tell you what I know about adoption. I know different strokes. I know if a white man come save you. Now, you know it was hilarious in the different strokes intro. The white dude is riding around the hood and he sees the two dudes shooting basketball,

and he just goes, get in the limo. He just snatches in the limo. He just snatches them right up, yep. No paperwork, no nothing, just come get you a black kid. What do y'all think about the way medium pop culture portray adoption? And what's missing from the mainstream conversation around adoption? I think so often the portrayal of adoption is, like when they have it, they use it as a plot point. It's usually like an obvious point of conflict and it's going to end with someone saying, but you're my real family and that's what matters. My real parents are the ones who raise me and that's like it. Like that's how like the episode of whatever growing pains or whatever sitcom I were watching as a kid. That was that was the resolution of the adopted kid's storyline. And I think like it's starting

maybe to move away from that a little bit, but there is still media and I think media portrayals are partly responsible for the fact that yeah, what everyday people without connection to adoption know about it is basically that you're happy and and grateful, right? And your family is your real family, and you don't feel confused about that, right? And I don't think people realize the pressures that that creates. One of the things that I really admire about Nicole and her work and approach to the issue, and what I try to emulate as well is that, you know, we're bigger than our adoption stories. We actually are much more nuanced and multifaceted.

So there's a million stories in our adoption stories. And I think that what happens in film and television or in whatever representation is that it is. It's it's one note. It's very boring and predictable. And it's not just that it lacks nuance, but then the conversations around it lack nuance. And so I feel like we have to be willing to not just create stories of representation,

but to talk about them with trans racial adopties. I mean, that's the whole thing is that, for the most part, adoption, trans, transracial adoption, we hear from, we hear from the social, the social, the social, the social, the social, the social, the social, the social, the social, that's the whole thing, is that for the most part, adoption, trans, trans, trans, trans racial adoption, we hear from, we hear from the social workers, the white social workers, the white parents, you know, the people who are facilitating these adoptions and not the adoptees. We are the experts, period, full stop. You know, there's a difference, too, between it being a story that Hollywood wants to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the to the the their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tre, tr. And, tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. true, true, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, trans, tr, tr, tr, tr, tr, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tr. And, tr. true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, true, their, their, their, their, there's a difference too between it being like a story that Hollywood wants to tell, like a great story and it being someone's lived experience. And so yeah, I would agree like, if you're making adoption media, like you should have adoptees in the room. If it's about trans racial adoption, you should have trans racial adopties in the room, not because we're a monolith, not because we all have the same experiences, but because Rebecca's right. We're the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the th, the the the the the the the the their, their their their their their th. their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th, I th. th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. th. I th. I th. And, th. And, th. And, to to to their, their, their, to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, I their, I th, we're the experts on that. And then, you know, either it's often like a very, you know, that sort of one-note portrayal of, it's fine, everything's fine, it's not complicated, or they go completely the other direction and it's something sensationalistic,

like, you know, you were joking before the break, Roy, but like, I think about the number of times an adopted person comes back to like murder their parents in Agatha Christie adaptations and like you know it's always it's just it's like either we're suspect a can't quite be trusted have all this baggage or like it's completely fine and like the adoption doesn't matter and there isn't enough middle ground. I did not know that about Agatha Christie. I don't think she wrote them that way. I would have to go back and like check, but like some of the adaptations update things. And yeah, they'll have someone's like, you know, child that they gave up or gave away or abandoned like come back and like be murderous. And like, okay, you know, that's that's one take.

Yeah, that's a choice. That's interesting is that at it is that at that at that at that at that's interesting is that's interesting is that's interesting is that's interesting is that's interesting is that's interesting is that's interesting is that at both polar ends of the portrayal of the adopted child, the parent is still the hero because they didn't deserve to be murdered or look at this good thing I did. And it's the foster care system and it's like they, I went into the foster care and they were fighting in the hallway and I pulled you out of that and I brushed your hair, and I gave you a hair, not look at you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the parent, the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their the foster care and they were fighting in the hallway and I pulled you out of that and I brushed your hair and I gave you a haircut. Now look at you, you use a good acceptable Negro to be in society. Except you didn't brush my hair. My parents, except you didn't. No one had told my parents about Asian baby hair and you know they kept trying to make it life lap for like the first two years of my life. It was just like, I know, I'm like, nope, it just is going to stick straight up, sorry.

So then to that point, Rebecca, when we talk about the story and the portrayal of the adoptee never being told, what are some of the challenges that adoptees face, especially when we talk about mental health, because at some point, I would imagine there's issues of abandonment and like why is that never seeded into the conversation and just and if you all want it talk a little bit about your own mental health struggles over the years and why you think that's not as big a part of the conversation around adoption. I will say that abandonment is I will speak for myself but I would is the central trauma of adoptees. There is what's called a primal severance, right? There's no way around that. We are

separated from the person whose body we came out of. I mean, that's, there's grief around that. I don't think our society is great at talking about mental health in general. So, like, you know, let's acknowledge that up front. And I I I I I I I I I th. I th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their is their is their is their is their is their is, their is their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi. I will thi. I will thi. I will thi. I will throooooooooome. I will, thea. I will, thea. I will, their, their, So like, you know, let's acknowledge that up front. And I think, um, I feel this is a parent too. Sometimes you're like, well, I do have like, I want to make sure you're okay. Like, thinking about you and making sure that you're okay is the thing that consumes me 24-7 as a parent, but like, in a way you don't know what you don't know what you don't know, and you don't know, and you you you you you you you you you you you, and you thu. And thu. And thu. And thu. And thu, and you're thu, and you're thi, and you're thi, and you're thi, and you're thi, and you're thi, and thi, and you're thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi to to to thi to to to to thi to to to to to thi to thi thi thi thi thi. thi thi, thi. trying to gauge a lot based on like, like offhand comments, like things you over hear. I think my parents didn't know I was really struggling. And I don't think they knew the reason, because again, I was not telling them that I was like hearing slurs at school. But like when I was about eight or nine, I started twisting and twearing my hair, like a nervous tick, like a nervous tick, and like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th, like, th, like, th, thi, thi, like, like, thi, like, like, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, and like I developed like a small bald spot and that was like their signal. We don't know what's wrong but like something is clearly wrong. And I started seeing a therapist like a sort of, she specialized in play in art therapy when I was really young. I mean I will say I give

them credit for realizing that like I needed more help and support. There were things I was not voicing to them that I had to talk about with the the the the their their their their their..... the the their their their their their. their. their. their. I, their, their, their, their, their, th. I, thi. I, their, their, the. I, the, the, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, like, like, like, like, thi. And, and support. There were things I was not voicing to them that I had to talk about with somebody. But I mean, for all that, I know I talked to the therapist. I know she talked to my parents. My parents and I, for all the love and support, like we still didn't talk a lot of different things, you know, that led to that, that moment where they could tell I needed help. But, you know, that's just something I've been living with.

And I'm sure some of it was like, like, like Rebecca was saying like, like, abandonment as kind of like that, that first central trauma for again, of growing up and like seeing no one who looks like you. And then experiencing racism and while being told, race doesn't matter. I mean, how do you square those things as a child? It's just kind of something that started pretty early. So my story is further complicated by the fact that I did reunite with my birth mother at a very young age. She is white and problematic. We had a very intense relationship and bond. All I wanted to speak to the central trauma of abandonment was her love and her to regain her shine and her attention. And she had a very bizarre relationship with blackness. And here I am trying to figure

out my blackness. And so at a certain point, she wrote her own book, and I agreed to help her promote it because that, of course, is a great package. This was many, many, many, many years ago. After, we went on, I think, but it was good morning America. I read about this in the book. And I was talking with Joan London, you may remember, about being a black woman and

how it's really important as a black dupdi to use my voice to help amplify and clarify my experience and what might be a similar experience for others. And afterwards, my birth mother and I went to lunch and she said, you know, I heard you say something today on the show. And I really thought because of our dynamic, I thought she was going to say that I was to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to know, I heard you say something today on the show. And I really thought because of our dynamic, I thought she was going to say that I was hogging the airtime, that I was speaking too much, that I was taking away from Hirshine. She said, I heard you call yourself black. She said, you came out of my body, you can't just go around calling yourself black. And that was a that tipped the scale for me.

And I came home that night and I was living with my best girlfriend who is chosen family to this day. And I just felt, I don't, I wouldn't say suicidal ideation, but I did also, I did feel like I don't want to do this. I don't want to feel this way, I don't want to have this experience, it's too much and she encouraged me to see a psychotherapist or therapist and I just sort of ran down this list of things that I had gone through including this comment for my birth mother and she was like okay you're clinically depressed

and you need to be on medication right now. And that was really, that was really both a relief and also kind of alarming because I had been living with all of this sort of melange of abandonment and, you know, racial identity and security and trying to just navigate this white world consistently and constantly. So yeah, that was definitely a moment. To the mental health part of this, right? How much of a role does the state and the adoption agencies

and all of the foster homes play in educating the families, hey, look, you getting the kid, but you need to be prepared to help this child, through a lot of stuff because as they mature, they're going to make realizations about themselves and they're going to need to help. How much is the toll on and adopt these mental health, also ignored by the state and the adoption agencies themselves and what role do they have in preparing the parents for what the hell is going to be happening when they create a transracial home? I mean I think the problem with that is really that even in the best case scenario

of an adoption agency telling adoptive parents, you need to be prepared, you need to know how to do the hair, you need to do th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and the, the, the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, soa, soa, sorooma,a,a,a,a, soa, soa, the, soa, the, soa, and, the, and know how to do the hair, you need to do this, you need to do that. White parents, depending upon where they choose to live, what their personalities are, what their own backgrounds are, or what their sort of values are, it's really easy to not do the things that they're told to do. I think even, even, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their do the things that they're told to do. You know, I think even if my, and in fact, somebody did say to my mom when I was younger, you should, you should find someone to help her with her hair. She was like, it's fine, you know, I mean, because to her, it was unt, and for me, it was until it wasn't. Yeah, why is this Korean baby hair sticking straight up? Yeah, let's just cut it down. Just put some, put some, put some V. O. 5? I have no idea. Put some hot oil treatment.

Yeah. I mean, even in the best case scenario where you have an adoption agency that's trying to really educate prospective adopters about like trauma-informed parenting and where a lot of, because let's not forget a lot of adopted kids are coming from really hard places. You know, I was adopted like straight out of state care at the age of two and a half months. And so I didn't spend like a long time in like an institution or in foster care. And like all these things can really, obviously, like affect kids for a long time. I know that there is like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, th, thi, thi, thi, th, thi, thi, like, like, foster care. And like all these things can really, obviously, like affect kids for a long time. I know that there is like required education training. There's often not a lot of coast adoption support for families or for birth parents, and that's huge.

You know, and ultimately like let's not forget, adoptees, we are not the clients. We are not really the people the whole system set up to serve. like we are babies babies, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, like, and, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi.a, thi.a, thi.a, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the clients, we are not really the people the whole system set up to serve. Like we are babies or children and people are making decisions for us, even if they're doing that in the hope of acting in our best interest. Like it's adults making decisions, it's adults being served. It's often like, you know, adopters' needs that are being kind of centered in all this. And so, yeah, if a white family doesn't know like what questions to ask even, or what support,.., that, that, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and people, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, this. And so, yeah, if a white family doesn't know what questions to ask even or what support to ask for, that's going to be yet another barrier to them and ultimately their children getting the support that they need.

And we know from studies that a lot of white parents aren't comfortable talking about race with their with their kids. And so, I don't know, it's like, it's like people people people people people people people people people people people people, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that's, that's that's that's that's thi. that's that's that's that's that, that, that like, it's like people don't think there is a problem. And so they're not asking for the help that they or their kids might need. I think also the way that it has been celibatized and the relationships that we see, you know, with celebrities, white celebrities adopting black children and having this kind of image of isn't this wonderful and it really, you know, see there is representation. Look at my black baby I bought. It's really, for us, it's really cringy, but I think for for most white folks, it's like, oh, that's really great. And again, it's really easy. I mean, I have talked with and met with many,

many white adoptive parents, celebrity and otherwise, who listen intently, you know, about, oh, okay, well, I'll do this, and oh, great, okay, it's more than a Serena Williams poster and take all these notes, right? And then, don't actually do any of those things and or start doing them, like start trying to collect black friends, try to collect black community, and black folks are like, you know you should have done that first. I'm not trying to be your black friend for your black child. You know what I mean? The funny thing is that we talk sotalk so much about good intentions, but the intentionality is not there, if

that makes sense. Do you ever, Rebecca, do you ever feel like, you know, people want you to give them like a list? Like literally, tell me the five things I have to do. Oh no, no. If I do those five things everything, everything is going to be a the five the five the five, the five, the five, tha, tha, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to be to be thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thiiiiiiiii. their, thiiiiiiii. their, their, thi. thi.. Oh no. You're going to have a thing with a different one, sorry. No, you've already kind of answered it. Like what advice is there not a checklist? You know, if I'm considering adopting a transracial child, you know, what do I do? Because if it's not your job to help me tear down the oppressive system and I'm the white parent and you won't help me be my black child's friend, how do I get black friends for my black child?

If the solution is not bringing them around white people until they're a senior in high school? Like what, what are the hurdles for potential trans racial adopters? I just, I feel, I feel like there has to, just as like a come to Jesus moment really. Like, if you're a white. So there's not a specific checklist. There's not a way to just go. I mean, there is.

I've been asked and I've given them many, many times. I don't think that is the answer necessarily, although I think that those tho tho that tho that tho that it tho that it tho tho that it tho that that that that that that it's that it's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi's thi's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thi. thi. thi. thi's thi. times. I don't think that is the answer necessarily, although I think that those things are good to keep in mind. But I think that it's really, are you willing to decenter whiteness? You have a black or or Asian, Korean, different race child in your house? That means that that race needs to be reflected as much, if not more, than y'all's taste and priorities. I mean, I will still meet a lot of people who want the basic story of trans racial adoption to be comforting and simple and like kind of a savior story. I remember being told many times like kind of a savior story.

I remember being told many times when many different people, it's like proof that love is really enough. It like isn't antidote to racism. Like it's just, it's incredible like the, I mean again, I talk about this lot, but the pressures that people will put on adoption and adoptees. There's so many things, and I think we've talked about some of them already. Like, you need to, before you adopt, not after and not when your kid is 10 or 16, but before you even take the step, you need to start really taking a hard look at your community. Like, what is the world and the life that this child, what are you bringing them into?

And I don't say that to say like, and then you should should that, th. you should decide that you're terrible and not adopt. But like you need to be able to be, and if it's uncomfortable, good. If it takes work, good, if there's stuff you have to do first to be ready to adopt, like, that makes a lot of sense to me. You know, we prepare, as biological parents, we prepare in lots of different ways, right, to have a family. So if you want to these are just the questions and like the interrogation that you should be able to do because you need to center that child and their experience and what their life is gonna be like and not think about like you are no longer just experiencing the place you live or your neighborhood through like your own experience.

And I think I think is really important is that this is kind of separate from the race, but it's related, is that I don't think adopts should ever be made to feel as though like they have to choose one family over another. And this comes up in lots of ways. I've talked to so many adopts who feel like we have to almost tamp down both our questions about our racial identities, cultural identities, and also like our questions about our birth families, if we're not in contact with them, sort of like to protect the feelings or the integrity of the adoptive family. And I think, you know, if there's one big important message, I think people should understand about adoption is that, like, both families are real. I mean, we're all real humans and Adopty shouldn't be made to feel as though they always have to kind of like pick one family or only belong to one family or only think about or love one family versus the other. I think if that had been stressed more in my life, that would have been, it would have made certain things easier for me. Maybe not the racial component have made certain things easier for me, maybe not the racial component, but other things. I would say also, the last thing I would say about adoptive parent, potential adoption, adoptive parents is do not recreate or create a microcosm of the

worst dynamic of racism in America, which is to say, we're the only one in the room, we're the last person who is considered. Do you know what I'm saying? Do not create a microcosm of what we already see in the world, in this country, in the worst racial dynamic possible. Well, this has been an amazing conversation. And I cannot thank you both for, you know, just sharing your journey,

sharing your traumas with the world and an effort to help bring some understanding. I cannot thank you all enough. Nicole Rebecca. Thank you for going beyond the scenes with me. Thank you, Roy Rebecca. Thank you, Roy Rebecca. Be sure with me. Thank you, Roy. Thank you, Roy and Rebecca. Be sure to look in the episode description for a link to watch Nicole and Rebecca's original interviews with Trevor. Play my theme music. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the Iheart Radio App, or wherever you get your podcast.

Explore more shows from the Daily Show. Wherever you get your podcast. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. You may be tempted to skip this ad, but don't. Marketers want their audience to stick around. And with Paramount Ads Manager, you can advertise your business on the biggest shows

on TV for 30 unskippable seconds. Run your ads in premium content on Paramount Plus and over 15 major networks with hit shows, movies, sports and more, all on the biggest screen in the house. Put your business in show business with Paramount to learn more. Go to Ad's Manager. Paramount.com to learn more. Do Nice Guys Really Finish Last. I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question.

Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. From New York to Tahiti will examine villains undone by their villainy. Monstrous, self-devaring egos and accounts of the extraordinary power of decency. Listen on the Eye Heart Radio Apppo podcasts, or where, or, or, or, or, or, or, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to the the the the the the to you, the the and accounts of the extraordinary power of decency. Listen on the IHart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.