The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Tressie McMillan Cottom - The Illusion of Twitter as a Public Square

Episode Date: December 15, 2022

“I have to believe that human beings are fundamentally curious.” University of North Carolina professor Tressie McMillan Cottom discusses her opinion on Twitter and how she sees its role in our society, how she teaches her students to think critically about the world they live in, and how she believes human beings are fundamentally curious. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Tresi Macmillan Cotton. Welcome back to the Daily Show. Welcome back to me indeed. It's a pleasure to be back. Right? Or do I say professor? I'd love to know what you prefer because you, you have so many prestigious titles, you know, it's with New York Times best-selling author, you know, it could be

professor, it could be MacArthur. Is it a genius grant that they give you? You can say that. I think I'm not supposed to say that. The foundation would prefer not but that's interesting. So they say you're a genius but they're like you're not allowed to say it of yourself. Exactly. Kind of like your mother tells you some things are best said about you by others. I see. Oh you're amazing but thi thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their thi. thi. I'm their their thi. I'm thi. I'm their their the foundation. I'm the foundation. I'm the foundation. I'm the foundation. the foundation. the foundation. the foundation. the foundation. the foundation. the f. the foundation. the f. the f. the f. the f. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I's is thi. I's thi. thi. I's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. I'm the. I'm th. I'm the. I'm the. I a, well, then I will say to you, the genius professor, that is Trissy, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. And one time, what a time to have you on, because there are few people who I've

enjoyed learning from, engaging with, studying, because you're not just a professor, you're a sociologist, you're somebody who looks at the world, you study what has happened, what is happening, and how you think it will happen going forward. And right now feels like an interesting time of everythingness going on. Let's start with, you know, one of our favorite platforms that we chat on all the time, Twitter. It's been a really interesting time on Twitter right now. Yes, that's an understatement. I try, I try, I specialize in those. I would love to know your opinion on Twitter itself and how we see its role in our society. There are some who say, because it is a business,

Elon can do whatever he wants. He paid it, he paid for it, he can take it, he can do as he pleases. On the other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other the other the other the other the other the other the other the other the other the other the are people are people are people are people are people are people arethe other hand there are people who are saying Elon taking over Twitter which has become this public square only goes to show how you know dangerous it can be to have billionaires defining what everybody else can speak or what what what their speech might or may not be. And all of those things are true they are not true to my mind in equal parts. So I think the bigger story here is that the big. Thea the the the the th. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. th. th. thin, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. they are t. t. t. to to to ta. to to to to to to to to to to to to to ta. to ta. ta. ta. ta. t think the bigger story here is that we outsource the public square to the private sector, right? Twitter becomes or it feels like the public square, but it has never operated in practice as a public square. It

cannot. It is not owned by the state or by the people. And in fact, one of the things that minority people, queer people have said for years about Twitter is that they could not participate the same way that really powerful brands could participate or politicians or particularly trolls. And so in a true public square, there would be some way for people to talk back, right, to the powers that be. That's never been Twitter. That's never been any social media platform. That is the difference between a business and something that is true true true true true true true., th. th. th. th. thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the thi. the the thi. the the the the thi. the the the thi. thi. the thi. thi. That's never been Twitter. That's never been any social media platform. That is the difference between a business and something that is truly public. So it is a business. Elon Musk can buy it as he was eventually, you know, forced

to do. You know, he wrote a check and then his behind had to cash it and that's how we find ourselves here. That we have used it to try to express sort of people power. Does not mean that the people own it or have any authority over it. What that says to me and what I think it says to many other people is that there should be a public space. We are in an information society. Information is power and it is money.

Why don't we have a civic public square that exists on the internet? Elon Musk buy in Twitter would not have mattered if the state was competing with Twitter. That's interesting. Yeah, but do you think you know many of these ideas are sound except when you add in that the state in question would be America. Yes, that's not her. No, and I mean this not because America's ineptness or anything, but rather because America sees everything through the lens of, you know, left or right, Democrat, Republican, always.

It doesn't matter what the issue is. And it feels like America itself would never be able to create something like this because both sides wouldn't agree on what the thing should or shouldn't be. Oh no absolutely I mean we see this debate about everything that is publicly governed, particularly our schools right? Where we cannot agree on whether or not our schools are indoctrinating our children or should be preparing them for the economy of the future. Somehow Americans want it to do both right. Don't teach my children anything but make sure that they can be competitive the the their their their their th. th. th. thoe thoe tho. thiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho. tho. thi, tho. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. I, th. I, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. the. to theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeean, toeeeeean, toeeeeeeean. toeeeeeeee. thi. thi my children anything, but make sure that they can be competitive in the economy of the future. But you know what, that is the mess of democratic participation. It does not mean that we get it right. It means that there is a way to get it right sometimes. So we don't have to have the whole thing figured out for us to invest in publicness. So one of, you know, I teach at a public university in North Carolina, and I teach a lot

of students who will go on to work in libraries and in the information sector. You know, libraries are to me the shining example on the heel of what a public space can be. Are they perfect? Absolutely. But do they welcome people into them and meet people where they are? Absolutely. Can America do that? Yes. Now do we have to fight to do it every step of the way? Absolutely. But we can have that fight. You can't have that fight when an entity is owned by a single megalomaniac. Huh. You know, when we talk about these spaces and we talk about these ideas and we talk about these conversations, there's no denying that Twitter and many places like it have benefited from

the diverse array of voices that have now been part of the platform. You know, you wouldn't know what was happening on the ground in the same way in Iran were it not for Twitter. Exactly. You know, you wouldn't know what was happening on the the the the the the the the th th th the th th th the th th the th th the th th th the the th the th th th the th th th th th th th tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. ta. ta. we. ta. ta. tok, wa. toke, wa''''''a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a was happening on the ground in the same way in Iran, were it not for Twitter. You know, you wouldn't know what was happening on the ground in the same way in Charlottesville, were it not for Twitter. It has become, as you say, it has the illusion at times of a public square, but many people have used it to that effect. I would love to know, you know, from your perspective, thrown, you to somebody to somebody, to to thi, from somebody, from somebody, thi, from somebody, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, thi, thi, tho, their their, their, th th th tho, tho, tho, the the the the the the the the the their what their what their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thr-a, thr-a, tooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.. too, too, the. thoooo, tho, the, the, from general obscurity to now becoming somebody whose voice is so respected and recognized. You know, you write for the New York Times as part of their op-ed. You're shaping people's opinions. How do you find the balance or how do you inspire people you teach to think

critically about the world that they're living in because half of the things we know are taught to us. And then at some point we have to decipher between what we've been taught is the truth and then what is the truth or where the gray even exists. How do you even begin that journey as a teacher and as a learner who's constantly, because you're constantly learning? Well, I think that is part of it So I try to be an idiot as much as humanly possible. I love that. I do that all the time. Yes. You know I enroll in something, I take up something that I'm just absolutely horrible at doing because I want to feel how vulnerable it feels to learn and it is a very vulnerable space. So when I am feeling generous, I think that there is a not insignificant part of the American public that isn't so much afraid of the other

as they are of being ignorant. And some people would rather be angry than stupid. And so figuring it out is actually really hard. This is something I've learned as I've taught people. And so there's a certain amount of vulnerability I think we have to share with each other to say that just because I have achieved something in one part of the world or in one profession doesn't mean I know everything. Now the challenge for us is that we have a culture that absolutely likes to to turn every success

story into a universal story of genius, right? So you found it Facebook and now you can solve world hunger as if those have anything to do with each other. So that is a problem of the culture but I don't think it has to be that way and I actually think one of the good things about Twitter has been how many people have been willing to model learning and public so that other people could see that it doesn't have to strip you of your status or your position, that learning can happen without you, you know,

flailing about. I think I'll miss that about Twitter. As ends. It ends eventually. Listen, all social media apps and right. There'll be something new obviously, but I don't know that anything else would be able to capture. That was one of the best things about Twitter. It was a space for people to see different kinds of genius. I like that. That you could be a good in one domain, still learning in another domain, that you could risk it. It is something that I enjoyed doing personally. And I think that it was never the app's intention. Listen, people turned it into that. That is not what it was designed to do.

Do you think that's because we innately want to do that as human beings? I do. I have to believe that human beings are fundamentally curious and social media is only popular because we're curious. We go there because we want to see. We're nozzy. We want to rubberneck the world, you know? And so what it is done, it has made it profitable, made our curiosity profitable. Right. And it has made it profitable, made our curiosity profitable. And it has made our curiosity politically polarized. But that doesn't mean the curiosity is bad. I actually think it is a thing that separates us,

you know, from the rest of one other animal kingdom. I don't want to throw shade on animals. Animals are good. They are pretty curious. Yeah, I think we're on animals. Animals are good. They are pretty curious. Yeah. Yeah. I think we're apes if we're lucky. Right.

You know? But it does separate us, I think, from like a brick wall. It does indeed. It does indeed. It does indeed. Shade to all the bricks. That is correct. I can talk Thank you for everything. It's a story.

I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. One more time. Trit's the Evelynne clock from everybody. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah Ears Edition. Subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and stream full episodes. Anytime on Paramount Plus.