The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Trump Dodges Epstein by Attacking Obama, Dropping MLK Files & Trying To Change Coke | Rob Franklin

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Josh Johnson kicks off his first day behind the host desk with possible new intel from Ghislaine Maxwell and Trump's latest batch of Epstein distractions: a 2016 Obama conspiracy, releasing the MLK files, and even admitting that he's not a medical marvel. Plus, you won't believe the 100% real Epstein bombshells that Grace Kuhlenschmidt found in the MLK files. Charlamagne Tha God unpacks the 79-year-old Trump’s recent memory loss, agitation, inappropriate behavior, confusion, and disorientation, all of which just so happen to be symptoms of dementia. Fiction and poetry writer Rob Franklin sits down with Josh to discuss his critically acclaimed debut novel, "Great Black Hope." They talk about exploring respectability politics through the main character, Smith, the tension between race and class in the justice system, and how not knowing your height is true tall privilege. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ow. From the most trusted journalists at Comedy Central, it's America's only source for news. This is The Daily Show with your host Josh Johnson. Welcome to The Daily Show. I'm Josh Mott and we've got so much to talk about tonight. Donald Trump is losing his mind and his hands. He's inventing new ways to do makeup wrong and he has a dream that one day he will not

be judged by the content of the Epstein files. So let's get into the headlines. -♪ The New York Times, The New York Times, and the New York Times. -♪ Let's kick things off with distractions. What it looks like when they're fed to the media and what it looks like when they don't work. Because right now, Donald Trump is desperate to move on from the Epstein files.

But the story is only building. A major development just in, the Department of Justice says it is trying to set up a meeting with longtime Jeffrey Epstein associate, Ghislaine Maxwell, who's in prison. The Justice Department now putting out a new statement and saying, if Ghislaine Maxwell has information about anyone who has committed crimes against victims, the FBI and the DOJ, we'll hear what she has to say.

Wait. You haven't talked to Galaine Maxwell? Epstein's accomplice? The woman he's in the most pictures with? Wouldn't she be your first witness? Also, also, stick with me here. How funny would it be if the FBI gets there and she's like, I'm finally ready to talk. I'm finally ready to tell you everything. But then at the last second she grabs one of the

agent's guns and takes herself out. The FBI would have to come out like, okay. Okay, I know how this looks. But I swear, I swear, here's how much I want you to believe me. We did do the first one, okay? We did run up on Epstein and like held him down, shook him a little bit. We didn't do this one. But while we wait to see if Ghislaine survives this interview, Trump has been doing everything that he can to keep those files under wraps.

He's even got his friends in Congress trying to help. Mike Johnson shut down the House just to avoid a vote on the release of the files. Yeah. Do you understand that they clear Congress out for the summer like they found a dookie in the pool? But trying to shut down the release of the files only makes them more interesting. So over the last week Trump has been throwing every distraction he can at us. And I want to go through some of them to show you how desperate he's getting. Let's start with his go-to distraction.

Obama! The witch hunt that you should be talking about is they caught President Obama absolutely cold. They tried to steal the election. They tried to obfuscate the election. Irrefutable proof that Obama was sedacious. No, booze aside. Sedacious? It feels like he's mispronouncing a new black friend's name. Oh, I want you to meet my friend, Sedatious.

Thanks. It's Sean. The problem with this distraction is that it's so old, Jeffrey Epstein wouldn't date it, all right? Trump has been going after Obama for decades. He's not, he's going gonna need something else, something juicy. The White House offering an unexpected health update on President Trump revealing that he recently underwent a battery of tests and has now been diagnosed with chronic venous insufficiency.

Doctors tell us it means there isn't adequate blood flow to the veins in the legs which can cause swelling. Oh no. There is an adequate blood flow to the veins in the legs, which can cause swelling. Oh no. Look at that ankle. When I said something juicy, I didn't mean... A shoe should not give you a muffin top. And I cannot stress how big of a deal this is because they never admit that Trump has anything but impeccable health. Usually they bring out a doctor to be like, Donald Trump has big muscles and a girthy

ass dick. Medically speaking, he makes Hercules look like a pig with cancer. Like I'm not exaggerating. His doctors once said that his blood pressure was astonishingly excellent. That's not even how blood pressure works. Blood pressure is numbers. If you want to impress a, say 120 over 80, they made it sound like Trump could control

his blood pressure like the settings on a fancy hose. His blood pressure is on miss, but he can turn it up to cone or jet if he so chooses. But I get why they put this out. One, it's a good distraction, and two, people have been starting to notice that Trump looks, medically speaking, like shit. After these images of President Trump

started to draw attention, apparent bruises on his hands covered with makeup seen in February and this week. The White House physician says it's consistent with minor soft tissue irritation from frequent handshaking and the use of aspirin. Well, problem solved. No one's going to shake hands that look like that.

Even that hand right there, you can tell that the thumb is like ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew ew But okay, Trump violatingating his own hipporites didn't get people to move on from Epstein. So now he's getting snacks involved. President Trump says he's convinced Coca-Cola to change its recipe. The president claims that the company has agreed to start using real cane sugar in

Coke products. This is so insulting. Trump's treating Americans like a kid you can bribe with a treat. Allow me to demonstrate what Donald Trump is going for here. Mmm! I don't care about pedophilia anymore! LAUGHTER CHEERING I don't care about pedophilia anymore. Delicious. And if all that doesn't work for you, if you don't care about Coke or Trump's health, don't worry. He's got some true crime for you. This morning, the Trump administration

releasing more than 230,000 pages of records related to the assassination of civil rights icon Martin Luther King Jr. That's how bad things are for Trump. His back is against the wall so hard, he's releasing more black history. But this might be the worst distraction because all he did was remind us that he can declassify thousands of secret files and people noticed.

Bernice King, the daughter of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. posted this picture on social media with the caption that simply reads, now do the Epstein trials. (*crowd cheering*) Damn, that is cold. Do you know how much you have to screw up for Dr. King's family to go, no, no, we choose violence. (*crowd laughing*) If Trump wants to distract us, all he has to do is keep his promises. family to go, no, no, we choose violence. If Trump wants to distract us, all he has to do is keep his promises.

If you ended the wars in Gaza and Ukraine, that would be extremely distracting. If you put up affordable housing, Americans would be like, what Epstein files? What Epstein files? I'm too distracted memorizing my new home address. If you want to think of it in terms you can understand, think of it like a bribe, Mr. President. You're the deal guy. Make us a deal. We want to know what's in the Epstein files, but if you put some universal healthcare in your palm and hand it over, Epstein who? I ain't seen nothing.

For more on Trump trying to get away from the Epstein files, let's go live to the Department of Justice with Grace Kuhlenschmitt. Grace, these MLK files show is a waste of time, Josh. Because I actually went through all of the MLK files and there are some bombshells. Let me stop you right there. Because last week, you said Pam Bondi gave you new Epstein files and they were clearly doctored to make Trump look good. So are you sure these MLK files are real?

100% sure. And I'm sure you're not going to believe me. I'm sure you're not going to believe me. I'm sure you're not going to believe me. that Pam Bondi gave you new Epstein files and they were clearly doctored to make Trump look good. So are you sure these MLK files are real? 100% absolutely. They gave me real files this time. Like this secret audio recording of MLK on a vintage iPod Mini from 1963.

I don't feel good about the way this is starting. Just wait until you hear it. This is the first time it's ever been played publicly and it will shock you. Are all the plans set for tomorrow's March on Washington? Yes, Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Do you want me to invite Jeffrey Epstein to speak at it? No. My good friend Donald Trump told me Epstein is a bad person and I always listen to Donald Trump.

President Trump is an inspiration to me and there's nothing wrong with the way his hands and ankles look. I mean, wow, thank you FBI sunlight, truly is the best disinfectant. Grace, there's so many things wrong with that recording. Name six. The timeline makes no sense.

They didn't have iPods back then. That sounds like somebody doing an impression of Dr. King. He called Trump President Trump and the other guy called him Martin Luther King Jr. Day. Sounds to me like you don't really respect Dr. Day. But fine. If you don't believe that, take a look at this document Tulsi Gabbard gave me.

It's a secret letter MLK wrote from a Birmingham jail. No, no. MLK's letter from a Birmingham jail was never secret. We all read it in school. Yeah, the front of it. But only Tulsi Gabbard had the brains to flip it over. And on the back, Dr. King wrote, P.S. fun fact about jail,

lots of pedophiles kill themselves here. It's a totally normal thing that shouldn't be investigated. That was clearly made up. MLK never said the words fun fact. Well the FBI file says it was his signature catchphrase, so fun fact you're wrong again. It's not suspicious to you that all these secret files exonerate Trump from knowing Epstein? That's why they're secret, Josh, because the deep state has been out to get Trump, and MLK was trying to expose their scheme.

He said it in a secret video I found in the MLK files in a folder labeled Grace. Look at this. Check it out. Free at last! Free at last! Thank God Almighty! Donald Trump has never met Jeffrey Epstein. Look at this. Check it out. Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty. Donald Trump has never met Jeffrey Epstein.

Yeah! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh!

Oh! Oh! Oh! Grace, that's the most famous speech in the world. We all know he didn't say that. Then why is the speech called Fun Fact I Have a Dream? We're never trusting you with documents again. Grace Kuhlman Schmidt, everyone. When we come back, Charmaine the God gives us his opinion,

so don't go away. Thank you. credit and perks like 4 p.m. late checkout at fine hotels and resorts. Now arriving in Tokyo. So going for your favorite food takes on a whole new meaning. That's the powerful backing of AmEx. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at amex.ca slash y amex. The White Chocolate Macadamia Cream Cold Brew from Starbucks is made just the way you like it. Handcrafted cold foam topped with toasted cookie crumble. It's a sweet summer twist on iced coffee.

Your cold brew is ready at Starbucks. Got your favorite song in the queue, but not your next binge-worthy series? All of your Hulu Originals favorites are available on Disney Plus in Canada. That means you can tune in to hit shows like Paradise, Deli Boys, and King of the Hill Season 14 coming this summer. All available to Disney Plus subscribers. Visit DisneyPlus.com to sign up and stream now. Welcome back to The Daily Show. We all know I've got great opinions, but I'm not the only one.

Studies show that other people also have opinions. So here with another installment of In My Opin, is our good friend, Charmaine the God. ["In My Pen"] Hey, peace, peace. What's happening, folks? Now, tonight, I'm here to talk about the biggest story in the country right now. The investigation into how an elite cabal of the wealthy and powerful kept a dark secret from the American public,

a secret involving the president himself. And I think we all know what I'm talking about, that Joe Biden was old. Members of the House Oversight Committee are looking into former President Biden's mental state and his use of the auto pen while in office. That's the scandal they should be talking about, not Jeffrey Epstein.

The scandal you should be talking about is the auto pen, because I think it's the biggest scandal, one of them, in American history. The biggest scandal in American history. It's like if Watergate f***ed Iran-Contra while the fire festival watched from the corner. Like, do you really need to investigate whether Joe Biden was old?

The man had permanent I'm-ready-Lord face. I think there should be age limits on everything. Political office, being on Twitch, driving. Okay, people are like, well, I'm 86 and I still drive fine. No, you don't. Okay? The only road your ass should be driving on is the highway to heaven, all right? And the good news is, if you're a journalist

who feels bad that you didn't call out a senile, a senile, necrotizing head of state when you had the chance, well, guess what? You've got another chance. You entered the playoffs battered and bruised, but not broken. When you ran out the healthy arms, you ran out of really healthy. They had great arms, but they ran out.

It's called sports. It's called baseball in particular. And pitchers, I guess you could say, in really particular. Lord have mercy. The only thing... The only thing more confusing and erratic than a Trump speech is my TikTok for you page, okay? My little boo-boo Benson Boone backflipped into my matcha, and now I'm covered in Dubai chocolate.

Please, China, just show me butch like I asked for, okay? But is Trump really losing it as badly as Biden? Hmm. Let's run through this official list, okay, of dementia symptoms from the Mayo Clinic, all right? Now, first, I want to say that doctors warn it's unethical to diagnose someone you haven't actually examined, but I'm not a doctor, okay?

So let's f***ing go, all right? Symptom number one, memory loss. As in, Donald, do you remember that you appointed Jerome Powell to be chairman of the Federal Reserve in 2018? I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in. Psst, psst. Memory loss, check, okay?

He's stealing Biden's whole flow, word for word, bar for bar, okay? I bet Biden's somewhere watching this thinking, where am I? Okay. Um... Yeah. Uh, next symptom, problems with communication and finding the correct words.

As a linguist, translator, and cryptologic technician. Psh, pssh. Check. Okay. Either his brain is malfunctioning or he was getting head beneath the podium. Somebody check to see if Mike Johnson is under there. Okay? All right. What we got next? Confusion and disorientation. Mr. President, do the tariff rates change at all on July 9th, or do they change on August 1st?

What are you talking about? Psh, pssh. Check. Don't you get it? Trump's tariff policy is 5-D chess, and all 5-Ds stand for dementia. Okay? Let's see how Donald does

with coordination and movement control. -♪ It's fun to see it now, why MCA? Psh, pssh. Psh, pssh. I don't get why Trump chose why MCA is his signature song. That dance involves coordination and spelling at the same time. Are you trying to kill this man?

Another prominent symptom of dementia is agitation. at the same time. Are you trying to kill this man? Another prominent symptom of dementia is agitation. Let's see the cool head of our president. Do I have 100%? It's a stupid question. I think your question is so stupid. Don't ever say what you said. That's a nasty question.

Scum. They're bad people. They're sick. You are a real, you know, you're a terrible reporter. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You know, you are so bad. You're such a bad people. They're sick. You are a real... You know, you're a terrible reporter. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You know, you are so bad. You're such a bad reporter. Psst, psst. Ugh! Okay.

Well, the bad news is Trump has rage issues. The good news is there's no way he's remembering the nuclear codes, okay? Now, that's my whole checklist, and I've reached my diagnosis. This guy needs to be put into a retirement home immediately. Okay? Yes. Yes. And hopefully, it's one run by Andrew Cuomo, all right?

["I'm a man of my word." in the background.] But maybe the best evidence that Trump is unfit to serve is that his defenders are denying it in the same way that Biden's people did. And I mean the exact same way. Joe Biden is sharp as a tack. President Trump is sharp as a tack. President is absolutely sharp fit on top of his game. President Trump is in top shape.

He's at the top of his game. He puts many of us to shame with his energy. President Trump has shocked the world with his energy. It is hard for us to keep up with this president who is constantly, constantly working every day. Hard to keep up with him. He is a machine working around the clock every single day. This is why I hate Hollywood.

Everything gets rebooted way too soon. Okay? Republicans were quick to call out Biden's brain when it was falling off the bone like a nice piece of barbecue. But now that it's happening, the Trump bums the word. Which honestly I get, okay? Political parties protect their own,

but the media is also making the same mistakes it did during the Biden years. We need journalists to speak truth to power because right now, our government is like an 86 year old driving a car and we're all in the passenger seat. But hey, that don't go away. future stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. Summer's what you make of it, and Tim Horton's fruit quenchers have something for every mood.

So choose from a variety of fruity flavors in sparkling, frozen, or lemonade. Order yours on the Tim's app today at participating restaurants in Canada for a limited time. No Frills delivers. Get groceries delivered to your door from No Frills with PC Express. Shop online and get $15 in PC Optimum Points on your first five orders. Shop now at NoFrills.ca. Welcome back to The Daily Show. My guest tonight is a writer of fiction and poetry whose critically acclaimed debut novel is called Great Black Hope. Please welcome Rob Franklin.

Wow. Okay. -♪ Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh You're a good dresser, you know what I mean? I already knew you were a great writer. You've got the book here and everything. I imagine you have a little money from writing such great books and stuff. And the other thing is that you're tall. So what I really wanted to talk to you about tonight was tall privilege. Yes.

Okay? Do you feel it? Do you walk around with it? Are you aware of it? You know, I do think I'm aware of it. I mean, I always think you know you're truly tall when you don't... I don't know my exact height, like, down to a kind of half-inch. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm like, I'm in the neighborhood of 6'2", 6'3". This is in the neighborhood. This is like when people with money are like, guys, money's not real. Mr. Top Shelf doesn't know how tall he is. It's wild. You talk about such specific topics

in the book in a really touching and creative way, because you talk about class. You talk about privilege. You talk about race. You talk about so many different things at once, and so I would love for you to also talk to us about Smith, your protagonist, and the sort of world that he's living in and how he navigates through all

these different spaces. Yeah, absolutely. So when Great Black Hope opens, we meet Smith, who's a black queer 20-something. And in the opening scene, he's arrested on the last night of a sweltering summer for cocaine possession in the Hamptons and then sort of through the court system

funneled into for-profit recovery. And so in that recovery program, he's kind of forced to contend with questions of race, class, privilege, as well as his kind of ongoing grief in the aftermath of his best friend's death. Yeah. And when you look at a character who is queer, black, and rich, those three different things don't usually seem like they go together to people who are like

on the outside. So one or two of them mess up the idea of the person for the other ones, if that makes sense. And so have you seen in life that there are people who have that thing exactly where it's like one identity kind of like derails everyone's expectations from the other two or three or four? Yeah, I was really interested in this question of, like, how, you know, in the sort of court system, Smith's class privilege protects him or insulates him,

but his race does not. And so this kind of tension between his race and class identities is really at kind of the heart of the novel. I mean, I definitely think that that's something I've kind of observed in my own life and, like, wanted to bring into the book is, like, you know, when you begin the novel

not having kind of a lot of backstory on Smith, you know, we see a black man who's arrested in the Hamptons. And people may have certain expectations about where the story is going to go based on all of the kind of like cultural detritus and like history and images that we have of black men ensnared in the criminal justice system. But then it becomes more complicated

as we discover the sort of extent of his class privilege. And one thing that I've wondered because it's a narrative that we've been getting shifted toward for a very long time, like pretty much since Obama, is that now things aren't about race anymore. They're more about class. And so what in your experience, and you can also

speak to the experiences of Smith in the book, what is it about one outweighing the other? Is it situational, or is it for some people one completely dictating how you're treated in spite of the other? Yeah, I mean, I think it so depends on the context. Like I think in the book, when Smith is entering a room, often his race privilege is what people are kind of

consuming about him first, like that's external. And a lot of expectations and kind of projections are being placed upon him, you know, in 12-step meetings or in kind of the for-profit group recovery that he's court-mandated into. And discovering the sort of, like, complexity of his identity requires actually talking to him. And so a lot of, in the book, a lot of his queerness, a lot of his class background,

and the sort of like black respectability politics of his family are kind of apparent to the reader, are explored, you know, in Smith's interiority, but aren't always evident to the people he's encountering. And do you think that, whether it informed how you wrote the book or it's just in your everyday life, that your understanding of respectability politics plays into how you move in different circles? Because it's one thing to not know.

It's one thing to really genuinely believe, like, oh, if I do everything right, everyone will like me, instead of the fact that a person's inability to do everything right all the time will be the excuse for people who don't like you to continue not liking you. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think that when you look at Smith,

who I imagine you're using some of your own experiences to inform his journey, do you think that there's a sort of awakening from respectability politics or do you think that in order to succeed you have to play that game a little bit? Yeah, I mean, I think that Smith is a character who has almost, who has really internalized the lessons of kind of the southern black bourgeoisie world that he grew up in, specifically as regards kind of black respectability politics. He feels like he needs to present a certain way,

speak a certain way, dress a certain way. And that's kind of his passport into certain rooms and, like, a kind of proximity to whiteness. But what I really wanted to explore was how those, that kind of strict adherence to black respectability politics for Smith becomes something that like eats him from the inside out. You know, it's a kind of impossible burden, that constant performance that he feels like he has to endure.

Yeah. And so you're seeing how it's taking this kind of like taxing mental toll on Smith throughout, and also how like at the end of the day, it doesn't actually protect him, you know, like, if he's gonna be profiled by a couple of plainclothes police officers, that's gonna happen regardless of how he's dressed.

So... Gotcha. And there's a lot of identity in the book, and there are these structures that are built around sometimes immutable characteristics and everything. But I think that one thing that really interested me through the book and through the aspects of your life that you put into the book is, how much do you factor luck in?

Because there are people across every socioeconomic, imaginable situation that are of different races. Like, there's just the boxing in of people, every socioeconomic imaginable situation that are of different races. Like there's just the boxing in of people, even as we get better at categorizing people's experiences, doesn't actually break up the fact that there's some luck, there's some unfairness, all these other things are at play.

How much do you factor in luck when you think about these characters? Yeah, that's such an interesting question. I mean, I think that Smith is a character who, you know, has always benefited from a great deal of luck. At one point in the book, he basically, in a 12-step meeting, says, like, until recently, nothing really bad had ever really happened to him.

That's a great thing to say at 12-step. Yeah, no one wants to hear that. That's wild. And, indeed, no one responds very well to that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's almost like telling a guy who's not 6-foot that you don't know how tall you are. Yeah, I mean, it's like... You know? It's rough out here.

Right? But, yeah, I'm just so interested in that because in this 12-step meeting, he, like, is expressing and coming from a genuine expression, too. It's not like he's bragging. Nothing bad has ever really happened to me. And so one thing that I've been really interested in that I think the book does a great job of also, like,

illustrating is that everyone's load is theirs to carry. The hardest life you're going to have to live is your own. And so there are people who have never been through this, this, and this, even if they belong to your group. Yeah. Right? And so whatever they're going through, as easy as it may seem for you, is very hard for them because they aren't used to the load.

You know? And I'm wondering from your perspective with the book, the people that, I don't want to say get left behind, but, like, the people that are lost in a way, if you think that... If you think that, socially, the idea of the bad things that happened to him finally, If we're ever gonna reach a level of understanding where that will be enough for the people

who he is now with. Do you know what I mean? Like, if there's a world where he is in that 12-step meeting and he's like, if he's able to express it correctly, this is the first bad thing that's ever happened to me. But you guys have to understand that this is, like, huge for me. Not just because it's the first bad thing, but because happened to me, but you guys have to understand that this is, like, huge for me. Not just because it's the first bad thing, but because, like, imagine if you've never been punched

in the face before. This is my first punch. You know? Is that what you were intending when you had that section in there? Yeah, I mean, I almost think that a way to kind of explore that topic is through Smith's relationship with his main friend, Carolyn, who is a kind of wealthy white woman who's also in recovery in the novel. And I think in their dynamic, oftentimes, he's not...

He feels almost a kind of, like, moral high ground, being like, you know, this is how things are for me. That sort of erases her, like, lived reality of recovery and also her kind of sense of, like, isolation and alienation at being perceived in this way by the person closest to her. And I think, in a way, like, what he is doing to Carolyn is what is also being done to him by other people, for instance, in that 12-step meeting.

You know, the kind of desire to be in a contest of pain is ultimately at odds with like true intimacy and showing love to people. And I think that that's something that Smith is realizing over the course of the novel. I think that's very well said and it's probably why you're such a great writer. I appreciate you so much being here.

You know, this is my first time doing the show and everything and I'm trying to do things a little differently, so I'd like to wrap up a little different than we normally do. Normally, you know, I, like, shake your hand and get everybody to, you know, get excited. I hold up the book. I want to do it a different way, if that's cool with you. Let's do it. Okay.

You're very tall, and... Great. That's great. I would love if we could end this interview with a high five. Is that cool with you? Okay. Now I want you to stick your hand up in the air. Yeah, but I want you to reach up. Don't go easy on me. I want you to go really high, okay? All right, all right, let me get ready, all right? Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. be right back after this. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. That's our show for tonight. Now here it is, your moment of Zen. These allies promise their base, we are going to deliver the Epstein client list that's gonna take down all of your Democratic enemy. Bring it. Bring it. Well, yes, bring it. Nobody gives a poop. Donald, please. We are going to deliver the Epstein client list that's gonna take down all of your democratic enemy. Bring it. Well, yes, bring it.

Donald, please. Donald, bring it. Nobody gives a poop. You don't give a poop. You don't give a poop. Explore more shows from the Daily Show Podcast Universe by searching The Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch The Daily Show weeknights at 11,

10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount+. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.