The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Veronica Ivy - Trans Women in Women’s Sports

Episode Date: July 6, 2022

Should trans women be able to compete in women's sport? Trevor and Trans Athlete Rights Expert Veronica Ivy discuss.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at Zip Recruiter's smart technology. Sip Recruiters' smart technology identifies to the talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job, zip recruiters powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for it, and you can use zip recruiters pre-written invite to apply message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner.

Ditch the other hiring sites and let zip recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality to to the quality the quality the quality the quality the quality the quality the quality to to to the to the to to to the to to the to to to the to to to to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to tip. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. tip. tip. tip. tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day Try it for free at this exclusive web address zip recruiter dot com slash zip zip recruder the smartest way to hire You're listening to comedy central Veronica Ivy. I do. Welcome to the show. Thank you. So, I'm going to say from the top, because I've noticed this happens in every conversation. Every time you bring up trans rights, or if you have a discussion and you say trans people,

tense up. I understand why. We live in a world where now there are people who are so transphobic that it makes it almost impossible for people who aren't to ask any questions, to have any conversations, to have any discourse that doesn't lump them in with transphobia. And so I'm really glad that you're joining us on the show to talk about this because it feels like one of the biggest issues in America. And yet th th no th no th no th no th no th no thine thine thine thine thine thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the is the is the, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, t, t, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, te is te is tean, tean, tean, tean, tean, tean, tean, thauuui, thaea, thaea, and yet no one can seem to talk about it. So let's start with your journey. You've competed at some of the highest levels in sports. And as your hoodie says, sport is a human right.

That is what you believe in. Talk me through. Talk me through just a little bit of why you believe fighting for transgender athletes to compete in the categories they'd like to in sport is so important. So it's a fundamental tenant of the Olympic movement that sport is a human right. So in their Olympic charter, in their fourth fundamental principle of Olympism, they say participation sport is a human right, and they mean that at the competitive level.

So this issue, people like to say that it's a complicated issue and I don't actually think it is. I think it's very simple. It all boils down to, do you actually think that trans women and intersex women are real women and are really female or not? And if you do, it's very simple. Just stop policing who counts as a real woman.

Because this has had history of racism built into it over the years. It's not an accident that the intersex athletes who get singled out are women of color from the global south. Because who gets singled out for scrutiny is based on white women's conceptions of femininity. And that's being weaponized against trans people too. So it's a fear of protecting the fragile, the fragile, the fragile, the fragile, theeee, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. the, th. the, the, th. the, th. the, th. th. th. th, th, th. th, th, th, th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and the, and the, and thean. And, and thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. theauu. thea, the, the's being weaponized against trans people, too. So it's a fear of protecting the fragile, weak, cis-white woman from the rest of us.

So there are many elements to what you said, which I appreciate. So let's try to break them down. One thing that confuses me personally is it seems like we have discussions about who should participate in which category and how. You know, on the face of it it seems simple as you say. You know, if somebody identifies as a woman, if they're transgender, they can compete against women who were born biologically and then if not, then not. But then there are many who would argue who are not transphobes. There are many who born

biologically women who will say but you have an unnatural advantage over me and that makes the sport unfair. How do you how do you respond to that? Yeah there's lots of ways you can respond to that. So the first is the very language of you were born and I'm not biological somehow, like I don't think I'm a cyborg. So like this idea that like, oh you're not a biological woman. Well, I am a woman, that's a fact. I am female. So all my identity records, my racing license, my medical records, all say female, right?

And I'm pretty sure I made a biological stuff. So I'm a biological female as well. So this question of, do trans women have an advantage over cis women? We don't know. In fact, there's basically no published research on this question. However, there's good reason to think that there isn't, but I think it's irrelevant because we allow all kinds of competitive advantages within women's sport.

So one example I love to talk about is the 2016 Rio Olympic women's high jump final. First place was over 6 foot 3.10 place was 5 foot 5. So a 10 and a half inch height difference between first and 10th at the Olympics in high jump. And we call that fair. Okay the range of body types within the female category is way, way bigger than anything that could be attributed to trans women. So if there's an advantage and I'm not saying that there is for trans women in women's sport, it's not an unfair advantage. But also, we've been competing, trying to compete at the highest level for decades.

We've been allowed to compete for decades. And no one has won an elite world championship. No one has won an Olympic gold medal. This Tokyo Olympics was the first time trans women even qualified for the Olympics. So this idea that trans women are suddenly going to take over women's sport is an irrational fear of trans women, which is the dictionary definition of transphobia. So it's interesting that you say that, you know, because... It's interesting to say that, because I think if I were to push back, or not even playing devil's advocates, there are a few things that could be argued.

Number one, you could argue that although the trans woman who competed in the Olympics didn't dominate, she did beat a field of women who might have qualified for that position, right? Secondly, when you talk about the height differences, I agree with this completely. But there are many who would argue that we exist in a state where a lot of the surgeries are new, a lot of the technology, just the technology is new. Transgenderism is not new. We know it throughout time, we've seen it throughout history. But there are many who would say, how do we ensure that we are creating some sort of standard? And the reason we talked this is, the reason they have to to to to to to the reason we're, to th... And, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the reason we're, thi, the reason we're, the reason we're, their, thrown. thrown. thrown. their, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just. And, just, just. And, just. And, just. And, just. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. they. they. they. they. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, just, just, just, just, just, just. their their. their. this is the reason they have to regulate a pergulate performance enhancing drugs. For instance, what is fair? What can you drink? What can you not drink?

What can you consume? What can you not consume? Some would say, if you are born that way, that's how sport has determined who goes where, and then some would say, no, regardless of who you are, you should be able to compete. My question then comes in from a really, honestly, a different place. I look at somebody like Oscar Pistorius from South Africa, right? He was the double amputee. And Oscar Pistorius actually went, well I want to compete in the able-bodied race, right? And people like, well, do you have an advantage, do not, etc? because of the prosthetics. Then could there not be an argument if there is no advantage in that, that then, then, then, then, then, the the then, then, the, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, the, the, the, thi, to be, to be to be, to be, to be, to be to could there not be an argument if there is no advantage in that, that then trans women should be able to compete, but in the men's races then, because they still be able to compete in the sport?

But they're women and they're female. So, like I said, this boils down to, are trans women, really women? Because if you think yes, then we belong competing with other women. So it's an extreme indignity to say, I believe you're a woman except for sport, right? So you can't single out one of the most important facets of our society. We are obsessed with sport. Athletes are some of the most highly praised, highly paid people on the planet.

So you can't say that like, I believe you and I support you, but not for this one really big thing that society really cares about. Right, and I'm saying I get confused by why we distill it down into just two things. I'll tell you why. As we learn about gender being a spectrum, as we learn that people can identify in a multitude of ways, we accept the fact that we don't have to put people people categories of man or woman. You know, that's why they say protect trans women is like otherwise which women are you protecting? It's an argument that doesn't separate or diminish anybody but gives more specificity to what

people are saying. And so when we talk about these things, I sometimes gets confused by why we're trying to force the people into two again when we've been taught that there isn't a two, whereas a sport like, let's say boxing for instance, in boxing, people fight across all weight categories. They don't just go men's boxing, women's boxing, they go, no, men, heavy weight, and then they'll be like middleweight, bantam weight, fly weight, there's like guys who weighthing, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, people, th, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, people, th, people, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, people, th... People, th. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, thi. People, people, people, thi, people, people, people, people, people, people I mean, genuinely, I've always thought to myself, it's interesting how in boxing they went,

well, we don't just want to see guys fighting. We want to see guys fighting at different weights. The UFC does the same thing. They go, you're going to fight in your weight class, which has, it seems crazy. How can you break it to world... It kind of literally is. Oh, then great. Have you ever considered a world where it becomes more specific then, you know, the same thing they did in the Paralympics. They had to find a way where they classified how a single amputee could run against somebody who's partially blind or a double amputee and how do we do tho theat that. to how do we grade that that. And how that. And how do we that. And how do we that. And how do we that thathe thathe thathe that, how do we that, how do we that, how do we grade that, how do we grade that, how do we grade that, how do we grade that, how do, how do we grade thi. that, how do, that- thate, tha, th. th. th. th, th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the their, their, their, the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same thi. thi. they thi. they thi. thi. thi. the. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that the. the. the saying men's sports, women's sports when we now know that there are so many more genders?

So I'm really going to dissatisfy you right now. Well, you don't know what I'm looking for though, so you can't. I do. I know you're looking for something other than what I'm going to say. And that is a very important question and a very difficult question, but it's a separate question. The question we're talking about is, given how sport is currently structured, should we include trans women and intersex women in women's sport? And my answer to that is a clear yes. If you want to say, should we revisit

how we structure all of sport, I would say, yeah, we should do that. But if your only reason for doing that is because you can't just accept trans women or women, that's a problem I got with you. I understand, and I'm not saying it's because people can't... No, no, I hear what you're saying. No, I completely hear what you're saying. So let me ask you this then. You know, again, eliminating fringes because everything on the internet becomes a fight and an argument. If somebody comes to you in good faith, and I mean genuinely good faith, and they say to you,

you know, Veronica, I was born a woman, raised a woman. I've suffered or lived and experienced life as a woman. This is where I am, this is where my body has gotten me to. I've grown as a woman. My body has had the testosterone or estrogen, that it had to get me to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th....... I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. to be. to be. to be. to be. th. to be. th. thrown. to be. to be. to be. to be. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th toeeea. toea. toea. toe. toe. th th toe. th th th th th th th th thrown had to get me to this point, and that's why I am here. And I feel like you may or may not have the advantage, but we don't know yet. So why can't we wait to know these things before you compete against me?

How would you respond to that? Because that's not how human rights work. So the way human rights work is that the people seeking to include. So I want to share something shocking with everybody. It wasn't until five years ago that we actually studied the relationship between natural testosterone and performance, and we found that there is no relationship whatsoever between unaltered natural endogenous testosterone and sport performance.

About 0.5% of elite male track and field athletes at the world championship level are below the women's average of testosterone. Competing with men with 80 to 100 times as much testosterone at no competitive disadvantage. And that fact has not been picked up by the broader media landscape. So when you say I'm a woman and I have this much testosterone, well first there's a huge range within women. Definitely.

Into the male range. And there is no relationship between her having a competitive vantage over women with lower testosterone. So there are elite cis men with low testosterone lower than a given woman who's out competing her. So our bodies and biology is not this simple. We thought it was and it isn't. So we know that when you add testosterone to your natural levels like doping you tend to get bigger stronger faster. We also know that when you drop your testosterone levels like trans women tend to do you tend to

get slower. But what your natural level is has no relationship to your sport performance and we've been singling out that factor, testosterone against the scientific evidence. But I'm a little confused and forgive me if I'm slow to understand this. You just said the natural level doesn't give you an advantage or disadvantage, but you said if people do have an addition or a subtraction of it, then it does give you a disadvantage or an advantage. Well, it affects things. So for example, like my body doesn't produce testosterone,

and it has them for a decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade decade for a decade for a decade it hasn't for a decade. But I switched sports from a road cycling event to a track power event, and I switched training. And I put on 25 pounds of muscle, and I went from being able to squat 170 to 375. So I don't produce any testosterone, and I squat a lot. And that's just because I changed training. So it's not so simple as, OK, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if, if you, if you, the the their, the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, if their, if their, if their, if their, if their, if their, if their, if the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, theck, theck, the. theck, the. theck, the. the. their, their, their, their, their, their, lot and that's just because I change training so it's not so simple as okay if you drop your testosterone you will get weaker because if you change your training your diet your rest and recovery your

sport your performance can change. Your body will change it it seems like we're always going to end up in a cul-de-sac because many people use it as a cudgel I I've realized, to scare people. Oh, the transgenders are coming for you, your bathrooms, your sports, or everything. Oh, we are. Be careful what you say. Um, but it feels like there are many discussions to be had. It feels like, as you said, you know, the research, the science, everything hasn't caught up, but I appreciate you for coming on the show and discussing this with us.

Thank you so much for joining me. Watch the Daily Show, Week Nights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes any time on Paramount Plus.