The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Violence Against Women & What Men Can Do to Stop It - Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: October 17, 2022

Kim Kardashian and Kanye West’s divorce started as a celebrity scandal, but has evolved into a larger discussion surrounding the harassment many women face when trying to leave a relationship. In this episode, host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with Daily Show writer Christiana Mbakwe-Medina and journalist Rachel Louise Snyder to discuss how The Daily Show has covered this topic, the many types of violence women endure on a daily basis, and the lengths women go to in order to feel safe. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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If it's a topic that's already been on the Daily Show, we talk about it again, and we go even deeper on the topic and, you know, see where we are now on the topic and you know see where we are now on the issue, get deeper into the origins of the problem and we do that with Daily Show producers, writers, correspondence and expert guests who know a hell of a lot more about it than us to help us break it down. Have a listen. Hey, what's up? Welcome to Beyond the Scenes. We are the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show of Trevor Noah. I'm Roywood Jr. as always, and today we're talking about a very serious issue, violence against women and why it's up to men to stop it. We'll also be taking a look at a recent segment about Kim Kardashian and Kanye West and the harassment that many women face when trying to leave a relationship.

Now, before we get started, I just want to just add a quick little disclaimer. Today's conversation might contain some tough subject matter. So I just want everyone to be aware of that and give you an off-ramp if you need it. All right, with that aside, let's roll the clip. For many women, every time they leave the house, it's a risk. And this is not something that men experience. Like when the pandemic hit, men were like, so just going outside is dangerous now, and women are like, yeah, add it to the list. Because for women, just being out in public means facing a wide array of potential

threats from men. The top story at this hour, the violence against women and the conversation that it has sparked among women around the world. For many, it can feel like the only way to guarantee your personal safety is to stay at home, lock your doors and never leave. The World Health Organization says one in three women worldwide have been subjected to physical or sexual violence. And data shows the violence starts alarmingly young. Around the world, six women are killed every hour by men.

And for women of color, their cases rarely in the headlines. On social media, the post text me when you get home now going viral. Women all over the world sharing their stories. As men, we should be steering this conversation to where it belongs, centered on us, because this is our responsibility not to be creeps. So let's not make it the one thing that we don't take credit for. Today I'm joined by Daily Showwriter, Christiana Mbacque, and I'm also joined by journalists and author of the book No Visible Bruises Rachel Louise Snyder welcome to the show. Thanks for having us Roy. Thank you. Now this topic

Christiana you know the show first covered the topic after the murder of Sarah Evraart the young woman who was abducted while walking home from a friend's house in London. And it sparked a much larger conversation that even something as simple as walking home isn't safe for women. What are some of the ways that women encounter violence on a daily basis? It can be anything. It can be being on the subway and a man sitting a bit too close and intimidating you with his body language and and becoming aggressive when you maybe ask him

to back off and it can get a lot more gruesome than that. There's an entire spectrum of violence that women have to face and navigate in their daily life. There's a lot of issues on the show, Christian, and you know, we're on Comedy Central. But sometimes, and you know, there's times where the comedy has to wait. How do you prioritize which things to inform society, well, men, let's just keep it real. How do you all decide to prioritize, all all right men are dumb, which things do they need to understand first? Do you start with the base level stuff? I hear you laugh. Like how do you all decide which things because some of it you can

sprinkle a joker to in and you can kind of like cat calling, we've talked about that on the show in the past but cat calling is a symptom of a far bigger issue so how are you all just you know in the writers room able to figure out and sparse out what people need to know versus what you could possibly try to make funny I mean it's particularly that Sarah Evraard case which happened where I'm from South London I know that park I've walked through that park. I've walked through that park many times. And thinking about how horrifying it was, it is difficult to find any sort of humor in it because frankly the subject matter

isn't funny, right? There's nothing funny about a woman being murdered when she's just simply trying to get home. And when I was working on that I was thinking from the perspective of a woman what parts of it are kind of funny in a sick way. And the joke I wrote that did make the show is like when you go out with your girls and they're like text me when you get home which is a thing that all women do. If you don't text you te then when you get to get the their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. I I their. I their. I their. I'm their. I'm their. I'm their. the their. their. their. their. I's, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. I I I's, their. I's, their. I's, their. I's, their. I's, their. I's, their. their, the. the. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. And, te. And, te. And, you don't text you, then when you get home, they get freaked out. And you wake up in the morning and you're trending on Twitter. It's like, fine Christiana, because every woman just thinks the worst,

right? Sometimes you just get home, you're a little bit tipsy, you fall asleep, you forget to text your loved ones. And that's happened to me in a few, And our husband, when we was just dating, he would get freaked out if I didn't text him when I'd got home somewhere. And once he was even going to call his cousin to come to my apartment to check if I was there, right? It became a big thing, but it's kind of funny that if you don't text when you get home, they're going to send out a search party, even if the funny in those kind of the nuances of it all and how it

makes your experience as a woman kind of inconvenient because you're constantly worried about your safety and then reassuring the people that you love that you are indeed safe. To Christiana's point about precautions, right? A woman waking up to being searched for because she didn't charge her phone and she didn't hear the text messages or whatever. Those are jokes amongst men. Those are like, text me when you get home, ha ha ha. I remember doing a college show years ago when I was younger and my younger days.

Still pull off a student loan or a book by that joke. The university would give comedians a swag bag. And the swag bag was really the same stuff they were giving the kids for coming to the show and there would be a cup and a little rar-ra-ra go-towel and every now and then there would be a rape whistle in the bag. And I could distinctly remember, you know, some of the male comedians that I was on the show, the show, I the show, I was the show, I, I was, I, I, I, I, I, I was, I was, I, I was, I was, the, the, the, the, the, th. And, the, the, the, the, th. And, the, thin, thi, the, the, thee, thee, thee, thee, the, the, the, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th...... And, th, th, th, th, th, th... And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they, the, the. And, they. And, they. And, the. And, they. And, the. And, theyians that was on the show, but they were like, take, look at the rape whistle and just throw that back on the today. I don't need one of those.

Give me a key ring. As a man, you are oblivious to a lot of that. What are some of the other precautions that women have to take every day when they leave when they leave when they leave when they leave when they leave when they leave when they leave when they leave when they leave when they leave they leave they leave their home that men are just completely oblivious and stupid to. I mean I take precautions in my home, you know, I have an alarm system. I live in a city that has fairly high crime and I remember about midnight one night I stay awake really late. I'm a writer where you know we're creatures of habit I guess and this person knocked at my door and I was only like three feet away from the door and I just like, holy

fucking shit, you know that like moment you're like, ah, and then I went and hid behind like one of my chairs in my living room, which is stupid, like what's that gonna do? Like, I'm not here. And I just remember feeling this like, you know, of course I called the police and whatever, but there's this feeling I get. I don't know if it's the same for you, Christiana, where it feels like it doesn't matter what prep preparations I have. I mean, I'm a journalist who's covered war zones and natural disasters and you know I took a class for journalists

and hostile environment and all these things that are supposed to like give me the some advantage that other women don't have but at the end of the day I don't I don't feel those advantages in any tactile way I still feel vulnerable. It really is something I open and you know even something that I try to do is not walk too fast or make my presence known if I'm to to th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi thi thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. I'm thi. I'm thi thi. I'm th something that I try to do is not walk too fast or make my presence known if I'm coming up behind you you make a cough or you scuff your feet like you just want to be present of other people's space as well. Yeah you know to the point you made there sometimes

feels like a futility to all of these precautions right Because the implication is the women that do suffer from violence is that they weren't cautious enough. But of course we know there's not, that's not true. There's kind of this randomness to it all, right? And I mean, for me, I have all of these measures. I tend not to go out too late by myself, you know. Someone always knows where I am and where I'm expected to, when I'm expected to be, to be back. Some of that is just growing up African, your parents are strict. Where are you going? What's

going? So like I'm very used to, you know, you don't want to be called like a Roman ambassador because you're always in the street so I feel like I'm always try to be like. to to like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like want to be called like a Roman ambassador because you're always in the street. So I feel like I'm always trying to be accountable to someone. So that's probably just like immigrant trauma really. But, um. My parents are like, are you still here? Come on. Yeah. So it's just kind of just always just these little things. I would rarely order maybe Uber eats when it's just me and my son in the house because I'm concerned about if a man sees me alone. You know, you're very vulnerable as a woman when a man knows you're alone, you know. So oftentimes I'll send my husband to the door or even if we have a handyman come to the house.

I won't come downstairs because it's just like, oh, there's a man I don't know in this house. Have you ever done that thing where you like shout as if someone's there? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I've done that before. Yeah. I live in a house, not an apartment, but people who come and do surveys and stuff like that, the husband needs me, and like, to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, tho, tho, and, thi. And, tho, tho, and, to, and, and, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, have, and, and, and, have, and, and, have, tho, tho, th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. And, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, th.... And, have, have, have, have, have, th. And, have, have, have, th. And, th. And, th. And, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have yeah. Just that apt, you learn to pretend quickly and use it as some sort of shield because from experience, I have learned

that men will defer to men. And a woman will tell you if a man comes up to you and ask for your phone number, if you say, oh, I have a husband, or I have a boyfriend, they will respect that invisible man Far more than the woman they see in front of them. So you just learn to do all of these things and Far more than a woman saying no, I'm not interested. Yeah, you know that that's not enough. He will rather respect this mythical creature this mythical boyfriend or husband then respect your consent in wanting to engage.

So how do we get to this place? Why is the burden on women to stay safe than on men to change their behavior? Oh. Yeah, yeah. That's a dupe question. I don't want to make it seem like I walk around every moment of every day with this like hyper vigilance. Like I don't. In general, I feel safe in my life and in the life I've carved out. Sometimes going to unfamiliar places my, you know, I have my spity senses are a little heightened. I think that to answer that question, the simplest answer to me, why has there been this entitlement is because they can th th th th th th th th, you th, you th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, think that to answer that question, the simplest answer to me, why has there been this entitlement is because they can and because all of the systems of our world, you know, from the judiciary to law enforcement to all these major systems, education, they all started, you know, by men with men in mind. You know, I'm talking more specifically about this country, but I think it's true of other countries as well, that like that like that like, that like, that like, th, th, th, th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because because, because because because, because, because, because, because, because, because, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, like, thing more specifically about this country, but I think it's true of other countries as well, that like, men write the rules, men make the rules, men, you know,

in many countries still today control the literal behavior of the women around them, all the women around them. And so I think it feels to me like we're going through a growth period, even just having this conversation. We didn't have these conversations when I was like in college, you know, a zillion years ago or whatever. So I do think it's growth. Well, let's backtrack for a second first. Before the next question I have for you, let's talk about the different types of violence

against women. Because so far we're talking about, you know, home invasion or someone kidnapping, but if you could, Rachel, break down, you know, some of the other ways that men can abuse or create some sort of domestic discomfort, terrorism, I'm going to use the word, create a little domestic terrorism on people that doesn't necessarily involve physical violence or physical harm. Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, there's a reason that my book is called

No Visible Bruises, right? It's like, so, you know, there's emotional abuse, and there's coercive behavior. For example, I covered the Orlando Pulse trial that Omar Mantine killed, you know, 49 people. The nightclub shooting, yes. The nightclub shooting. And his, he had been married twice, so he was, it was his second marriage when the shooting happened. And with both women, he had been incredibly controlling.

So with his second wife, he moved her 3,000 miles across the country where she had no one....... And, thine, th. And, she th. And, she was, th. And, th. And, th. And, thine, the thine, the thine, the the thi, the the thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, you their, you their, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, toe... they. they. they. toe. they. they. toe. they. their, they. they. they..... their, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um moved her 3,000 miles across the country where she had no one. She was from California and he moved her to Florida. She didn't drive and he wouldn't let her drive. So she was really isolated. She didn't have her name on the bank accounts and he would give her money to spend for her and her son every week. None of these are physical violence. And in fact, none of them are them them them the the the their their their their their their their th of thoer of th of thoer of thoer thoer thozy of thoes thoes thoes th violence and in fact none of them are against the law. It's just a way of coercing and controlling somebody. Now he did actually strangle both women non-fatal,

non-fatally, obviously. And in Florida, in fact in most states, if you're convicted of non-fatal strangulation, it can carry a 10-year prison sentence. But he was never convicted. I mean, he could have, should have been in prison when that Orlando Pulse shooting happened, but he was never charged and never convicted. So, you know, that's two types of violence, one physical, one not. But there is a lot of way, I mean, there's another guy in my book who went out into the countryside, they lived in Montana, went out into the countryside and got a rattlesnake and brought it home and he kept it in

a cage and told his wife that he was going to put it in bed with her or put it in the shower with her if she did anything that pissed him off. You don't have to physically be violent to control somebody. And there's only two states with laws against coercive control right now and they're both brand new and really haven't been tested. Yeah, and you know, especially in this digital age, there's so many ways where you can terrorize a woman without even physically seeing her or touching her, you can leak her nude. You can threaten to leak any intimate videos or photos you've taken. You can. You can. You can. You can to to to to physically. You can to physically. You can physically. You can physically to physically to physically to physically to physically to physically to physically to physically. to physically to physically. to physically. to physically to physically to to physically to to to to to to physically to to physically to physically to physically to physically to to to physically to physically to to physically to physically to physically to physically to physically to physically to physically to to physically to physically to physically to to physically to to physically to to physically to to to physically to to physically to to to physically to to physically to to to physically to to physically. to to physically. to physically. to to to physically. to to to to to to physically. thei. thei. thei. thei. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiii, thii, thi, nudes. You can threaten to leak any intimate videos or photos you've taken.

You can create fake Instagram and Twitter accounts and follow her every move and whether it's a Snapchat. You know, there's women that say, he was following me on Snapchat and turning up to where I was. Because if, you know, like, geolocations now, right? It's very easy to find where people are.., thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to thi, to to to to to to to to to to to thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, or th, or th, or th, or th, or th, or th, or to to th, or th or thi, or thi, thi, thi, or thi thi, thi thi thi thi thi the or the theateateateate or theateateateateate or theateateateate or thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi urning up to where I was because of you know like geolocations now, right? It's very easy to find where people are. Doxing. There are just so many ways that if a man wants to make a woman's life incredibly difficult but still be within the limits of the law, he can do so and it's quite terrifying.

For both of you then, what are social media companies, because on the other side break I want to to th th th th th to th th th to th th th to th th th to th th to th th to the tho to tho to tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the the tho- tho- tho- tho-up tho-up tho-up tho-up tho-up tho-up tho-up tho-up tho-up tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the to find too' too' toe toe toe too'-cocuuuuuuuuu toe that thoooooo' thee the the th you then, what are social media companies, because on other side of the break I want to talk about, oh, Kanye and Kim and my friend Pete Davidson, but what are, what are, what are you all in your eyes, the two of you, what do you think social media companies are doing right now to try and regulate that type of behavior? It's enough happening in that regard because it feels like if I can get a rattlesnake or I can intimidate you, I can drive by your job, that's more individual one-on-one. But social media is a space, it's regulated. There are moderators, at least they claim that there's moderates. Who are supposed to be monitoring and policing and regulating that

type of behavior. Are social media companies doing enough? I'm not an expert on that in any ways. I think we know that they are kind of failing in a lot of areas in terms of racial harassment, abuse. A lot of women do not feel safe on Twitter or YouTube or even streaming on Twitch because of what they'll see in the comment section. I know Instagram has a feature now that if you block someone, you can also put the option to block any other accounts they create. th. th. th. th. th, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, I thi, thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I th. I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. thi, I, I th. thi, I th, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi. thin, thin, thin, thi. thi. I thin, thi. I thi. I thi, th know Instagram has a feature now that if you block someone, you can also put the option to block any other accounts they create. But for some of these men or sometimes women who are incredibly obsessive and determined, that type of safe measures is simply not enough. But I think even if we resolve some of the social media piece

and make tech companies ensure that everyone that has, say, a Twitter account is someone th. th th th th th th th o o o o o o' tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the the tho tho tho their their their tho tho tho their their tho their their their tho-a their their their their their their their their their their their their the option the option the option the option their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.. thooooooothe social media piece and make tech companies ensure that everyone that has, say, a Twitter account is someone who's not anonymous and they have to be a real human being, etc., etc. It's such a wider societal problem. It just doesn't get to the root and the heart of the issue. And I think that's the big problem. I think part of the problem is they're not regulated, right? We as society are relying on them to, you know, have our best interests at heart.

Like there's a group of 20 people reading every post on Facebook. Like it's just it's an algorithm and sometimes it catches it, sometimes it doesn't. Lately I've been getting these emails that go through, I have a website and I have someone else who gets that email for me. It doesn't come directly to me. And they keep sending the same thing, like Rachel Snyder has a lot to answer for, with pictures of me pulled from all over the web. And that's it. There's no threat. There's no direct question about what it is I have something to answer for. and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, th. thi, you, you, thi, thi, I'm, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, thi, I, I, I, I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thi, to answer for. And I, you know, I, yeah, it makes me nervous.

I have a kid. I, you know, live where I live. I've alerted campus security where I'm a professor. So, but what can you do? None of it is against the law and none of it is like specific, you know? Yeah, it's a very great area. Well, after the break, I want to talk to th th th th th to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be the the very great area. Well after the break I want to talk a little bit about Kim Kardashian and Kanye West and how Christian and the Daily Showwriters almost got Trevor Noe into a fight with Kanye

almost. Almost. It was a real fight. He might have came up here. You never know. It was during a hiatus week so Kanye couldn't come fight us. What is that? It's beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast.

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recruder dot com slash zip zip recruiter the smartest way to hire before the break we were talking a little bit about Kim Kardashian and Kanye West and everything that Kanye has been doing against her and we did a segment on that on the show. Well Trevor did I want to say we in case Kanye come up here and try to find him and say is Trevor. Trevor did it but that's probably one of the most high-profile examples of harassment that we have right now you know Johnny Depp and Amber heard as well but Christiana, we spoke on Kim and Kanye on the show. How did you all decide how to tackle this topic? Because this isn't a typical daily show piece.

You know, we're told the night before what's going to be on the show the next day, and sometimes it's so we can just read up more on the stories or just know what's happening and when I saw in slack that we were doing Kim and Kanye I was like oh that's surprising when anything involved a Kardashian it immediately becomes tabloid and we historically don't toucest tabloid stories so there was this just the very natural reluctance that comes with us like why we doing this very tabloid story and we're doing this very tabloid stories. So there was this just the very natural reluctance that comes with us like why we doing this very tabloid story and then there was some trepidation because it involves minors. You know they have children and there's something icky about discussing such a public dispute when

there are children at the center of it and even though these are children that are on reality TV a lot this just feels a lot th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi thi. thi, thi. thi. thi. Why thi, thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why th thi, why th th. th. th thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why the thi, the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi their thi. thiiiiiiii. their thiii. their their thiiiii. their their their their their thi. of it. And even though these are children that are on reality TV a lot, this just feels a lot more sensitive. And there are so many landmines, for lack of a better word, about how we could weave it and do it well. And again, remember we're a comedy show, so we're going to be making jokes. So it's, the task is incredibly difficult. But the feeling was from the the the the the the thi thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.a. thi.a.a. And, thi.a.a. And, thea.a. And, thi.a. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi, thea, task is incredibly difficult, but the feeling was from Trevor and Trevor and myself spoke about it that even though this was quote-unquote being viewed as a tabloid story, that it was really

a microcosm of so many themes that happen in society in general and there were bigger lessons to learn from it. And Kim, despite her vast wealth and resources, was kind of emblematic of what so many women are going through right now, and they're not being believed, and people are treating it like a joke, and everyone is standing by watching this escalating behavior, and not spotting them as red flags. So I think that being our entry point made what was a very difficult and tricky process, made it a lot easier. And then, you know, from the comedy side, what I found funny and it was a joke that did

make the segment was just like, you know, Kim in her effort to kind of rebrand has gone down this social justice route and she's trying, she's trying to do the bar or whatever, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, the bar, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, try, th., their, the site. You know, Kim, in her effort to kind of rebrand has gone down this social justice route and she's trying to do the bar or whatever. And in her spare time, she frees black men from jail, right? That's what kind of a hobby is right now. Black women, too. So what are the optics of you, like, free and black men from jail in your spare time and calling the police on the black man who happens to be your ex-husband harassing you. Like she's kind of in this real branding real-life conundrum which isn't funny but it's also funny,

right? And we're just talking about that. There are many reasons why she can't call the police, but there is probably on her part, like this looks hypocritical. I'm supposed to be like this abolitionist. So we were just teasing through the comedy in the complications of it all, but still trying to convey the gravitas of the situation and our belief that Kim could be in grave danger. Even even someone like me, I was like so tuned in to these issues. And it's like when I heard that monologue from him, I was like, yes, of course, even I had been, had this like casual celebrity relationship to her. Like, I don't care about all that.

There's a lot of people go like, Kim Kardashian. She loves publicity, she loves all of this. She does the Cardassi's, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, she loves all of this, she does the Kardashians, this is her life, this is her thing. Yeah, and I get it, but there's also an element of a woman saying to her ex, hey, please leave me alone. You know what I mean? Please leave me alone. Because I'll be honest with what I see from this situation, I see a woman who wants to live her life without being harassed by an ex-axxxxxhusband or an ex-anything. What she's going through is terrifying to watch and it shines a spotlight on what so many women go through when they choose to

leave. You know people always say that phrase to women they go like, why didn't you leave? Oh why didn't you leave? thrown. Yeah because a lot of women women realize when they do leave, the guy will get even crazier. And when I say crazy, I don't mean mental health crazy. I'm like, you understand what I mean. You know what I mean. The point is that Kim Kardashian and countless other women, they find themselves in a terrible position, you know? Because asking Kanye to stop clearly isn't helping. If Kim this, Kardashian, if she cannot escape this, then what chance

do normal women have? Roy will tell you, Trevor and I have a very interesting dynamic in relationship. We kind of like butt heads a lot and that's, I think, how we produce some really good stuff. We don't always agree, but there's a deep respect there. And it was just one of these things that I had been on sabbatical and I've been talking a lot about it on my Instagram and Trevor follows me on Instagram so he was seeing a lot of what I was saying about this particular case and then he was like Kay tomorrow, like, it's going to be weird because you're not here. And I'm like, no, I'm back. And we kind of just brainstormed it and just did a lot of talking.

And I just gave him my whole spiel about it. And then the next day, it did like a smaller meeting with the other producers and our showrunner. And then, yeah, it really came together. And I th th th the it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it really, it, it really, it really, it, it really, it, it really, it, it really, it really, it really, it, it, it, it, it really, it really, it really, it really, it, th. th. th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the, the the, tod, tod, tod. And, tod. And, tod. And, tod. And, tod. And, tod. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th th to to th to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to. together and I think we were like buzzing for about a week afterwards because of the conversation it generated that felt so important. Trevor said that he was biking down Hudson Highway and some dude was jogging and then ran after him and said, I want to say thank you to you for what you said about Kim Kardashian. I never saw it that way but now I'm different. It was like, I'm looking you Trevor making allies. I know it. That's the men, I the the the the the th, I th, I th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th th th th th th th really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really thi, thi, thi, thi, thi the really the really the really thee really theeee really thi theeeeeee really thi thi thi try and I'm making allies. I know, that's the thing. Like, I don't like those Cardassians, but wow, this is horrible. Like the way people really switched and, you know, Kim's kind of unlikable to a lot of people.

And I don't think you should be likable to be a victim, but it says a lot that if you can get people Oh, you know what? If it's not, it's not right. So it felt like important, you know. Totally, and coming from him, it's the, you know, if I said it, I'd get like, you know, two likes or what? It can't come from a woman. That's why I explained that to him. I was like, look, Trevor, the reason it's resonating so much, it's a bit like racism when white people say say, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, the, the, the, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you, the, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. thi, the th. the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th say, this is racist, everyone's like, oh, wow, this must really be racist. So if a man comes out and says, this is violence. This is, yeah, yeah, let me show you how to look at this.

And everyone kind of steps back and says, well, if I'm, because the bar men have for violence is different, they always feel that women are being hysterical. So for Trevor to be like, hey guys, I'm not, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. th. th. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to just step back. So then Rachel, to that point, what are some of the examples that you've seen in Conye's behavior that are textbook examples of the harassment and abuse that women deal with when trying to leave a relationship? Yeah, and that's a good question because my guess is that what we're seeing on the outside is just the tip of the iceberg. You know, there have been the the text the the text the the the the the the the the the the the the then, then, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that's the, the, that's, that that that that that that that that that that's, that that that that that that's, that that's, that's, that that that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thiqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, tip of the iceberg. You know, there have been the text, there's been the manipulation of his social media, right? So he has this kind of like hidden army behind him. There's been the children used as leverage, right?

Like, oh, you know, I was not allowed to go to the birthday part. I wasn't told with it. There's that kind of stuff. And the collective, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, the kind the kind the kind the kind the kind, the the the the the the the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi but it's the collective of that that is concerning to me and not just the collective but the escalation of it where it's like he's upping the ante and I should mention that he apparently a week or two ago's there you know recently said he's gonna get help and whatever and I you know I hope that's true and that he does get help but it's it's the escalation which I the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It's the th. It's th. It's th. It's the th. It's th. It's th. I thi. I thi. thi. the. the. the. thi. I'm that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. I's the the the. I's the escalation, which I think the most extreme, is the video, right? Like it all kind of leads up to that video.

We're talking about the Pete Davidson, where he threatened Pete Davidson in a music game. Yeah, yeah. I know that he hides behind his art, right? He says I'm an artist, this is just art. But really, you could then choose anybody, right? Like, you actually have Pete Davidson's name in your song. So it's not art when it's a threat. Like, there's a threat.

Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't, buy a house across the street from your soon to be ex-wife is exactly art. Right, right. Right, right. It's this stocking that's harassment. You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's, you's th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thathea, thatheatheat, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th a jerk move. Yeah, it's this stalking, it's this stalking that's harassment. You know, she's been very good about not making too many public statements, but she's made a few. And even that, I feel like, fuels him.

Fuels the type of person that he is to like up the game to him. Christiana, the thing that I found very interesting about Trevor's piece is that you're looking at an abusive dynamic between Kim and Kanye and for the people that have read Trevor's book and know Trevor's history, Trevor is a child that grew up in an abusive home. So he's seen a lot of the stuff that is starting to mirror itself now. How much of a decision was there for Trevor to put his own emotions into into the segment? Because I felt like somewhere underneath all that that that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi. And thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi. And thi. And thi. And thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the thi. the the the thi. the the the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. the. the the th for Trevor to put his own emotions into the segment. Because I felt like somewhere underneath all of that, there was still a piece of compassion for Kanye and wanting Kanye to get better. It didn't seem like a full-blown vilification, like a dunk on him, like you weren't

dunking it as much as it was acknowledging the behavior, acknowledging how corrosive it is, and trying to find solutions. We were very keen not to villainize anybody in this piece, right? Because I think that's the instinct that the public lean towards. You know, we need to have a villain in this story, you need to have a hero in this story, you need to have a perfect victim in this story. And it's really really complicated the the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi villain in this story, you need to have a hero in this story, you need to have a perfect victim in this story, and it's really complicated. Kanye has also been very open about his mental health struggles over the years and they've been courageous and been candid about the difficulties he had and not to use his mental illness

as a route to justify any of this behavior, because that's not the case. But that was really important context for us, that there are times when Kanye is unwell, there's times when he's lucid, you know, he's a very complicated man. But none of that justified what was happening. So we're very keen to say, OK, what Kanye is doing is terrible.

It's harassment, but we're not here to beat Kanye up or beat men like Kanye up. We didn't think that was a productive way to frame things. Because it just wouldn't land. It would have gone over the heads of a lot of people who, interesting enough, so many people were team Karnier. That was where the public discourse was at that point. And anyone that came up against Karnia in a specific way and was like, Karnay is a villain, they weren't hearing it.

So we were like, okay, Karnay is doing a really bad thing, and we need to get people who don't see that to see that. We also need really need to make it clear about what Kim is going through. And we also knew that there is an audience that was unsympathetic because she's incredibly wealthy. She has this reality show. She's seen as a lowbrow celebrity who has no talent, even though I think her talent is like making money. What you think was going to happen? You got with Clay Yank. There's a fake booty. You'd be stealing ideas from black women. There's the appropriation piece, there's the whorephobia and the fact

that this empire was kind of built on a sex tape. There are so many things that mean that people do not want to receive it when they hear that Kim Kardashian, a woman like Kim Kardashian is being harassed and stalked. They just don't get it. So we were conscious of all the nuances of the piece going into it and just trying to cover each part of the argument. And of course, you heard Trevor say a lot. I'm not saying that Kanye is going to kill Kim, or God forbid that happens, but he was just saying, the warning signals

are here and he was able to spot those signals I think because of his personal experience but I will say that you know when you work with Trevor on a headline he's not something he's quite journalistic in the sense that he doesn't necessarily want to insert himself in the story that's not his impulse his impulse is actually to kind of be like impartial observer in times and then the the the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the he he he he he he he thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thee.e. toe. toe. toe toe toe to to to to impulse is actually to kind of be like impartial observer in times and then at the end he'll kind of give his take. And I feel he was a bit reluctant to tell the personal side of his story, not because he's not courageous enough to do that. He's been really open about his life. But there was a feeling that perhaps that would color the entire piece, but in my view Trevor's personal story was perhaps one of the most powerful tho-o because he has been a witness to that type of violence and intimidation and harassment and he was saying, guys, this is also coming from a very personal connection. And I feel the audience found that compelling

as kind of a end note to this entire monologue that he did. He built a really strong case, and then he brought himself into the story. I grew up my whole life in an abuse of household, right? Most of my, let's say, from the age of nine to whatever, 16. One of the things I found most interesting was how often people told my mom that she was overreacting. What I found interesting was how many times people to told my mom to calm down, people told my family to calm,

everyone, you know, and everyone had different reasons. Oh, I remember once we went to the police station and they said to my mom, oh, but did you took tod tod tod tod tho tho tho tho, is tho, but what did you say to it? It's all these questions, all these questions. I remember seeing this as a child, by the way. You see this as a child, you know? And you see a world where women are questioned for what is happening to them, as opposed to people questioning what is happening to them. And for years, people said this shit, ah, no, this, ah, you know, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. this, this, this, this, thee, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, thisthis, ah, you know, this, this happens, this, that happens, there's everyone, police, some family, stranger, whatever it was, whatever it was. And I'll never forget one day I got a call from my brother saying, hey, mom has just

been shot in the head. She's in the hospital now, she's just been shot. And I'm not saying it, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm that's that's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. thee. th. theean. th. thean, thean, thean, thean, thean. thean. thean. thean. th. th. it about me. I'm just saying maybe that's why I look at the story differently, to be honest with you, is I go, it seems like nothing. And again, I'm not saying Kanye will, please. I'm not saying he will. Not saying that. But you see it in all these stories where people say, we saw it but we didn't. Whether it's the people around him, whether it's the people in their lives, whether it's us as a society condoning or not condoning, and

I know it's nuanced, I know, I'm not saying Connie is just a bad guy, please, but just a society, man, we have to ask ourselves questions. Do we wish to stand by and watch a car crash when we thought we saw it coming? Or do we at least want to say, hey, slow down. Let's all put our hazards on, because there's a storm right now, and some shit might go down. Let's just put our hazards. If it doesn't happen, hey, the worst thing we did was we all had our hazards on like idiots. I'll be fine to say I was an idiot, nothing happened. I'd rather be in that situation than to be in one way I and it was, I love what you said about not,

essentially not taking away Kanye's humanity. Because that's how we don't solve problems is by flattening the other person, right? I spend a lot, I've spent a lot of time with abusers and they're interesting because that, you know, they're sort of simultaneously out of control and in control at the same time, you know? And they're usually filled with shame about their behavior too. It's not like they're doing this and they feel good about it. They feel, as one researcher said to me, I've never met a happy abuser ever. I. I. I. I. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm they're not, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, they're, they're, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I they're, I'm they're, I'm they're they're they're they're they're they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not the, I'm not the, I'm not thea, I'm not thea, I'm not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not they're not about it, they feel as one researcher said to me, I've never met a happy abuser ever. I mean they're not happy either. Yeah, Trevor in a ridiculously long Instagram post about Kanye and really to Kanya, I don't know, this must be like some special celebrity Instagram.

He got, because it's man, it's like 10, 15 paragraphs. But one part of it that really, really stuck out and touched me, you know, he said, it breaks my heart to see you like this. I don't care if you support Trump. I don't care if you roast Pete. I do, however, care when I see you on a path that's dangerously close to peril and pain. I've woken up to read times and read headlines about men who've killed their exes, their kids, and then themselves. I never want to read that about you. If you're just joking about it all, then I'm an idiot for caring and so be it. But I'd rather be the idiot who spoke up and said something to you in life

than the cool guy who said nothing and then mourned you in prison or the grave. Yeah. Where... Gosh, he should write a book. Yeah. It's amazing. I got goosebumps. You know, and in a time where so many people can just ride the way the way the media set this up, it's Kanye crazy, Kim, tripping. Man, let that man see his kids.

Yeah. Like, what role does the media play in shaping the one-sidedness of it all? Because no one can find the nuance in the middle, and I know that the media plays a role in it. So you, journalists, what did you do wrong? Yeah, I mean, what I would say, I have a lot to say about this, so sit back. No. How does the media help shape this narrative that keeps people from? We've minimized the problems, the problems of wealthy famous people. We put them on a pedestal, right?

So that's a particular problem with Kim and Cotier that, you know, we don't feel for her because how could she have problems when she's rich or she's beautiful or she has this, you know, perfect butt or whatever. But I think there's a bigger problem with the media in minimizing domestic violence as a whole. I mean, if I could take the phrase domestic dispute and like blow it off the landscape of media forever, I would because we're talking about crime and there's no other crime I can think of where we downplay it and call it a dispute. Like Omar Mateen, non-fatally strangling his first wife or a second wife is not a domestic dispute.

It's attempted murder and we need to call it what it is. To me it also just feels like sexism right? No one cares about the pain of women. People don't take it seriously, right? Yeah. It's not seen as valid pain and my anger at the media narrative about Kim and Kanye at before we've done that segment was that everyone was treating it like a joke. There was this he, he, he, ha, ha, part. Kanye's put a truck full of roses outside of Kim's house,

he, he, he, ha, like all of it. He's fighting for his family. Right. People's, it was funny. And I was looking at like, this is scary. Love makes you crazy. Yeah, it was just, it was seen as a funny kind of tabloid spat rather than a really insidious domestic. I always tell my daughter like, if a man hires an orchestra to come play on your lawn,

like that's not romantic, run, run as fast as you can. It was kind of like grand justice. I mean, it's used so much now. I kind of hate the phrase, but love bombing, you know, so all of this stuff he was doing, and I was looking at it, and I thought, I'm scared for this woman. And the only other people I saw saying that were other women, but the media coverage, just the way the story was framed, was not framed as this is a mother and a wife who is in danger in some sort of peril.

It was like, Kim Kay, you know, doesn't want Kanye's flowers. Ha ha ha, he's doing his best. It was weird. And even if it goes south, it's just called a crime of passion. Like, it's still like, well, you know, you love, you'd be tripping sometimes. You know, he's still a good person.

How do women who don't have the resources and the high level of celebrity that Kim Kardashian have, how do we get the media to even look at these stories? Because there's a million Kim Kardashian's happening on a regular basis in this country, especially women of color. How do we get the media to start turning their eyes towards those types of stories? I have no idea and I think the distressing thing about all of this is if a woman with Kim Kardashian's resources and visibility and wealth is this vulnerable and the world kind of just looks on and laughs, what does it mean for the woman who's undocumented and is afraid to go into the world kind of just looks on and laughs, what does it mean for the woman who's undocumented and is afraid to go into the police station because there's a language barrier

and she's afraid of getting deported and her abuser uses that against her, and her community are using that against her. What does that say about a woman who's being financially abused and doesn't have access to her bank account and has no idea about an escape route. Because the reason we didn't want to villainize Kanye is because abusers are very complicated people.

There are so many men that people are like, he'd never beat his wife. He's the nicest guy ever, right? You know, they're really charismatic and charming. And we wanted to make it clear that the men that are doing this to women in your everyday life are often like Kanye in the sense that you're enamored with a part of them. You really like them. They make you feel good. But there's also a side to them that's much darker. And I don't know how we make that change where people are actually really

concerned by the about the underprivileged and under-resourced women or and us even learning that super wealthy women who perhaps become stay-at-home mums and relied on their husband for income for the last 15 to 20 years. They're vulnerable too. It's a really hard thing because I don't think most people understand how difficult it is for one woman to escape, especially the low on the socioeconomic ladder she is. There was research done by a woman named Joan Meyer at George Washington University. She did research on custody cases where there were custody disputes and found that in 25% of the cases where abuse was alleged by a woman, they lost the kids. They lost the kids. The woman lost the kids. So, you know, abusers use that. I'm gonna

have your kids taken away from you. And it works, it works, right? There's, you know, there's a guy that I spoke with years ago, a researcher who talked about how abusersers, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, where where where where, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to their, to to to their, their, their their, their their, their, their, their, their, right? There's a guy that I spoke with years ago, a researcher who talked about how abusers, just like you say, Christian are, they're charming. That's how they get victims in the first place. They're often very, very quick courtships. I'm completely skeptical of fast courtships now, I have to admit. And they mess up victims' lives because we want our victims to be a certain way, right? We all have, I mean, I think even if you weren't a child of the 80s like I was, you still have an image of like the burning bed, right? Like that's your image.

That's your image. And the fact is, like, that's not realistic. You know, people can't the name of your husband off your their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.... And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi, thi. And, thi, toe.e. And, toe. We's, toe. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. And, that's, that's, tha holds you in place. You can't, you know, get the name of your husband off your checking account without his permission interacting with him. You can't sign your kids up for another school. I did a story on a woman who had been to shelter in their shelter, in and out of shelters for 20 years. She tried to leave. And he got really smart. The last time she tried to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the the the the the the the the they. And, and, they. And, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they. Ande, they. Ande, they.ea, they.ea, they.ea, they.ea, tho, th th th th th th tooeaugh, youanananananananananananananan, youa, you're, you're, theya, theyatried to leave, she went to a shelter in Maine, she lived in Massachusetts,

and he wrote a letter to the school system saying, you know, such and such has taken off, she's unstable, she's bipolar, I'm afraid that she's going to do something with the kids, so don't let her register the kids out of school without my permission. I mean, that's charming. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. th. And th. And th. And they's. they's. they's, they's. And they's, they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they'. And they'. And they'. And they's. And they's. And they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they's. And they's. And they're. they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're to. And, the kids, so don't let her register the kids at a school without my permission. I mean, that's... Right. And he ended up killing her, you know, and killed himself. So they know, our systems lock victims in place every bit as much as our own sort of social responsibility to not minimize this and not

marginalize victims. After the break I want to talk about solutions to these issues and I want to talk about the phrase toxic masculinity. That's that's that's I just saw you shifting your seat. Okay yeah we don't talk about that. It's beyond the scene. We'll be right back. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now, you can try it for free at Zip Rec Recruiters smart technology identifies top talent for your roles

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On the prevention side, ladies, what can we do to keep these crimes from happening in the first place? That's a good question. I will say that other countries are doing some interesting things. There's, in the UK, for example, there's a violence prevention hotline that anybody, men or women, although it is 80% men who can call and get help if they are in a moment that is problematic.

I'll say problematic. And, you know, it's not a solution in that it's gonna, you know, solve violence against women forever and ever, but it is what you're trying to do, what, what, to do, what, to do, what, to do, to do, what, to do, to do, to do, to do, to do, to do, to do, to do, to do, to do to do their their their th, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiii.eo, thooooooo, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their in that it's going to, you know, solve violence against women forever and ever, but it is what you're trying to do, what you're trying to do is disrupt a moment of violence or potential violence. And so I think it's a useful tool. In the states, we just signed, reauthorized the Violence Against Women Act. It had been sort of stagnant for since 2013 roughly. And for the first time ever, they have earmarked funds to figure out what works in anti-violence prevention programs. And so I think to me

that's a really positive step that we're sort of talking about not just how to stop the violence before it happens, but how to keep victims in their community and in their families because, because, you, you know, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, and, th, and, and, th, and th, and th, and thi, and thi their thi, and their their thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and their thi, and thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, th, th, their their their their their their their their thi, thi, thr-s, thrown, thrown, to to to to to thri. to to thri. to thri. to thri. And, thrownee, thrownthe violence before it happens, but how to keep victims in their community and in their families because, you know, we haven't talked about this and we probably don't have a lot of time, but shelter is not a very good response to like take, you know, you know, a whole family out of everything familiar, allow them two suitcases, stick them in one room, So I do think there's th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi tho tho thi, thi, thateat-a' that-sovv-sov-sov-s, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thro, throoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. and their, their, their two suitcases, stick them in one room. You know? So I do think there's a lot of solutions out there, and I don't think that they are necessarily law enforcement solutions. I think that law enforcement often makes a terrible situation much, much worse, and that we need to, like, in certain cities in San Diego, inthink, Baltimore here in Washington, D.C. We have programs where, and I think Denver has one, where domestic violence advocates will go on calls with police officers. And I think that's really, really important because just the police as a presence with all of their gear and their tactical stuff, like they're giant.

They're almost like machines and they walk into a room, they're intimidating, right? So you're perceived to make the situation worse. Yeah, and to Rachel's point about, you know, police not being the solution, I'll say that the subculture, for lack of a better word, I grew up in in South London was predominantly made up of West African and West Indian immigrants, right? And if I speak from the vantage point of that particular subculture, civic institutions have a lot of power, let's say, so whether that's the church, whether those are like community groups

that are linked to your tribe or your clan, whether those are mosques, local community centers, these civil institutions and the people that run them, so pastors and imans and the deacons, et cetera, have a huge amount of authority over what people do, right? You know, if you're having medical issues, you go to your pastor, you're like, you know, I'm just talking about the way immigrant subcultures and subcultures in check ten tend to work. And from my perspective, I think that a lot of community-based

training needs to happen in a lot of civic institutions about understanding what abuse is and understanding who a victim is and understanding that every man can't be rehabilitated and that women need to be protected and children need to be protected and when a woman comes forward she shouldn't be ostracized, she shouldn't be told to stay, but we also need to give her the means to escape. That means she remains within the community because it's actually the isolation that means a lot of women return with their children, because when you leave the man, you leave the community. And for people I would say especially of like minority descent, if you're of African or Asian extent, where being community, it's more about the collective than the individual, that is incredibly devastating

because you lose your cousins, you lose your in, you lose so much. I think a big part of the solution is going into all of these subcultures, all of these communities, and specifically looking at, like, okay, how do we work with these local synagogues about spotting abuse and how they can help their women? Because those are really, those civic institutions have so much power that they can use for good. But oftentimes they're ill-equipped, right?

You know, they think, oh, okay, if you just pray. It will go away. Keep praying for him. Keep praying for him. And next thing, you know, it's a funeral. You're burying that woman. So we need to really work through these civic institutions in my mind and with various community leaders and helping them being able to support women and men, because women aren't the only ones being abused that need to leave these type of situations. Rachel, where are we with the legislation. And, is there a way a a way a way a way a way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way their their their their their their their their their their these type of situations. Rachel, where are we with legislation and, you know, is there a way to make restraining orders tougher? Like, where are we on the, I guess, on the legal side of things? We have really good legislation. We just don't enforce it.

We have, you know, a ban on convicted felons owning guns. But if you have a misdemeanor domestic violence charge and you live in you know Mississippi no one's going to take your gun you know you live in Michigan no one's going to take your gun. So I think that it's a matter of enforcing the legislation that we do have. Now there are a couple of states that have passed coercive control laws where you can't you can't you know coerce someone into you know doing what you want them to do or whatever California has passed a course of control off Connecticut and then

there's a few other states looking at them I'm not sure where they're at right now I know Maryland and New York we're looking at them and then the other the other piece of it is offering parole to victims who essentially killed their way out of a violent relationship. It was a killer-killed kind of situation. And so there's a lot of states now looking at their parole and probation boards and seeing if there's alterations they can make New York past one a few years ago, California. Wasn't there a woman in Florida

who was taking in for simplifying warning shots at her abusive husband for a position? Yeah, same time, the same time Trayvon Martin was killed. Yeah, she was sentenced to 20 years. She's out now, but you know, that's, that's an interesting example because that's one of the states that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's one of the states that has stand your ground laws. And stand your ground laws were meant to kind of address the shortcomings of self-defense, like, you know, what if it wasn't somebody breaking into your house, but it was somebody threatening you out on the street. So all these states have stand your ground laws,

which is, does seem to be like a growing movement, and yet stand your ground laws. And yet stand never use stand your ground laws, almost never. So a lot of the problem isn't with the legislation itself, it's with the gender discrimination and the bias when it's implemented. Yeah, and to speak to the legislation part, I think for black women especially, engaging with the justice system comes with a lot of historical baggage. It starts with, do you feel comfortable calling the police? Are the police going to shoot you when they arrive? Right? These are the questions going through a black woman who's being abused mind. If I have a

teenage son at home, are they going to misidentify my teenage son as a suspect, not my abuser? Like, there are a lot of subterranean issues here that we need to unpack access to legal advice. Because we can have great policy and great legislation, but what happens when you can't afford a lawyer? You know, I think there's a really significant population of women who are at greater risk of domestic abuse

who, even when we put the right legislation in place, will still not be able to access it, and the law really work on their favor in the way it needs to. Right. And do you want to put someone in prison who is from your own marginalized community already? Which a lot of people don't want, right? And I think the abolitionist has really kind of brought this conversation to the fore about prison not necessarily being the solution, especially if that man is going to be out at some point.

And, you know, we've seen so many cases of men going to to to to to to to to to prison to prison to prison to prison to prison to prison to prison to prison to prison to to p to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their. their their. their their their their theirc. I their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. I thea. I c. Iean. Iean. Iean. Iean. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm th. I'm their their their their their that man is going to be out at some point. And, you know, we've seen so many cases of men going to prison for domestic abuse, doing their stint, coming out, killing another woman, right? So we're kind of putting this problem away for a certain amount of time. So if we look at the idea of restorative justice and what that looks like in some communities that may need to be the model that's prioritized because those women don't want their abuser in jail. They want their abuser to stop abusing them and abusing other people. But they're not going to engage with the justice system, all or enforcement. So we need to figure out, so how do we help and protect them? Okay, so then let's end with this.

Men. Garbage, terrible, ass, men. What role can men play in ending the culture of misogyny and violence against women? Because we talk about the phrase, toxic masculinity, and I I pulled this up because I want to make sure that I'm defining it properly. Toxic masculinity refers to the notion that some people's idea of manliness perpetuates domination, homophobia, and aggression. So my last question to both of you, what are the ways that men can help change the culture on this issue?

You know, that's such a great question. And when I'm talking about this with the men in my life and how I intend to talk to my son about this is that toxic masculinity, all of these constructs, this big academic language, it harms men too, right? It doesn't allow you to experience the fullness of your humanity. You're not allowed to be empathetic. You're not allowed to cry when you need to. You're not allowed to express the range of your emotions. So you curtail the human experience. You're

not being yourself because you're so conscious of the perception of not being man enough. So don't think this only harms me as a woman or the f the f the f the f the f the f f f f f f f fullness the f fullness the f fullness the f fullness the f fullness the f fullness the f- the f- the f fullness the f- the fullness of fullness of fullness of f- the f- the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the fuln-full the fuln-full the fuless the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full the f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full f-full fulnu-full fulnu-full of fulnunu-fullness fulnununununununununununununununununununununununununu. fulnu. the fulnu. the perception of not being a man enough. So don't think this only harms me as a woman or harms the children that look up to you. It's harming you because you become a prisoner of this construct. So that's where I always start the conversation. I'm like, this is bad for you because if you, you know, humans are kind of selfish, right? So if you frame it as this is bad for women, they're like, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, you, th, you, you, you, you, you, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're thi, you, you're th, th, th, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thri, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thii, thii, thi, woman. Like, you know, that's how people think about it. But if you're like, now this is really bad for you, this is why you're depressed and you can't say it. This is why you're going through it, and you can't even share it with your home is that you're with all the time. it makes you harm yourself. And then you say, this is what toxic masculinity does to the people around you, like the women that women that you love.

And unfortunately, it's kind of sad that we have to use the women that men are connected to as an entry point, because you should just care of a woman irrespective if she's romantically or biologically or community-wise attached to you, but for a lot of men they're not going to care unless that's their daughter, their mother, their sister. So you have to explain how like the behavior you perpetuate, how it affects the women in your orbit. And then you say you need to check your friends. That's what I always say. You need to check your boys because I can't do it. Like there are the the guy is an abuser, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to their, their, to their, to to to to their, to to to to to, to, to, their to, their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, there are men that everyone knows that guy is an abuser, and you still have him around. Why is that? You should be ashamed.

I shame people. I don't care. I'll be like, why is he around? Why do you roll with him? I don't want to hang with him. I don't want with him. It's kind of using that language, like, why are you allowing this man, to have to be a, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, they, they, they, they, they, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I sha, I sha, I shamed, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I drinks so he can fond all them, even though he shouts at his girlfriend, even though he's controlling and you turn a blind eye because he's not doing it

to you, but you're actually one of the few people that can check him, right? And that's kind of like my three-step way of unpacking this idea of toxic masculinity and then giving them something the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their they something they something they something something something something they they they they they they they they they they they can they can they can they can, I guess, action on and my whole thing is, and this is how my group of friends work, we see ourselves as a community and a family and we have to be able to be radically honest with each other. If you have that type of dynamic with a man and he's a man that you know has influence, you should be able to have those conversations. I mean, that's kind of how I approach it. I mean, I mean, I just th, I just th, I just th, I just th, I just th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, I just thi thi thi thi thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi thi, and thi thi, and thi, and thi, and thi thi, and thi, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thi. thi. thi have those conversations. I mean, that's kind of how I approach it.

Yeah. I mean, I just think there's all kinds of ways that we can slightly reframe so many of the conversations that we're having. And I have to say, like, I know more good men than bad. And I've been in a lot of prisons, so I know a lot of bad men. Yeah I completely agree it's just like I I think I can have this optimism about having conversations about toxic masculinity because my father, my husband, my cousins, like my friends, I'm surrounded by like really remarkable men who are equally grieved by what men

are doing to other women so yeah we want to emphasize there are good men, more good men than bad men, but more of those good men need to speak up. Yeah, well, I wish that we have more time, but we are out of time. This has been an amazing conversation. Christian as always, thank you for being back on the show. It's so good to be back.

Send the best to the husband and that child of yours with all of that wonderful hand. I will. I will. And Rachel Louise Snyder, the book is no visible bruises. Thank you so much for all that you do on the journalistic side of this issue as well. Thank you. Thanks, Roy.

For further resources and support, visit the National Domestic Violence Hotline at W.W. the Hotline.org. The Hotline.org. See you next week. Listen to the daily show beyond the scenes on Apple Podcasts, the I-Heheart radio app, or wherever you get your podcast.