The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ​​Why Are So Many Books Being Banned? - Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: September 26, 2022

Books are being banned from schools and public libraries at alarming rates, and stories from LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC authors are disproportionately being pulled from shelves. How do book bans harm learning and access to information? What do these challenges say about the American educational system? Deborah Caldwell-Stone, Director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom and George M. Johnson, author of the widely challenged book “All Boys Aren’t Blue'' join host Roy Wood Jr. to break down where these book bans are coming from, the political ideology behind them, and how these banned books can help young readers understand complex issues. Beyond The Scenes is a podcast from The Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Check out more episodes wherever you get your podcasts or YouTube.com/TheDailyShowSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. What up? It's Roywood Jr. Next, you're about to hear a special presentation of the Daily Show podcast that I host called Beyond the Scenes. Now, all it is, it's very simple. If it's a topic that's already been on the Daily Show, we talk about it again, and we go even deeper on the topic and, you know, see where we are now on the issue, get deeper into the origins of the problem, and we do that with Daily Show producers,

writers, correspondence, and expert guests who know a hell of a lot more about it than us to help us break it down. Have a listen. Have a listen. Hey, welcome to Beyond The Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into topics and segments that originally aired on the show. This is what this podcast is. All right, like, you go grocery shopping, right? You've got all the groceries you need and you're putting everything up there on the little conveyor belt.

And then you look around and you see a National Enquirer talking about the royal family. And then you see some candy, and then you see some breath mints. You realize your breath stink. And then next thing you know, you've got all these extra snacks and snickers and tobarones. And you just throw it all in the cart. That's what this podcast is. The extra thing you didn't know you need, but it on books for children and young adults in schools and local libraries. Here with me to discuss this today and to discuss Band Books Week, we have Deborah Caldwell Stone, director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. Deborah, Hello to you. Glad to be here, Roy, thanks for inviting me.

And we also have George M. Johnson, author of All Boys Aren't Blue, a memoir manifesto that has appeared on too many band and challenge book lists and the honorary chair for band books week. George, how you doing with your band ass? I'm good today. Thanks for asking. All right. So Deborah, I want to start with you. I have a lot to ask you, George about your book. But first, Deborah, let's just set up the whole issue in a totality. Now, it seems like every other day

is something on social media or a news story or about a school district trying to ban a book. Let's just talk about what the actual baseline problem is and what we're seeing. Well, what we're seeing are public school boards and public libraries, removing books because someone in the community doesn't like the ideas or the topics of the books, which is absolutely contrary to the First Amendment and everyone's right to choose what they want to read in libraries. What's worse, it seems to be an organized campaign by conservative advocacy groups that

want to limit our ability to think about particular issues. And George's book is kind of a double whammy because what's being targeted are books dealing with the lives and experiences of LGBTIA persons and the lives and experiences of black persons and persons of color. There seems to be a particular animus for this. We're seeing legislation. We're seeing assaults on school board meetings, threats being directed at librarians and educators. People afraid to go to their cars after board meetings because of what's going on.

We actually just had a drag queen, bingo teen event canceled here in the Chicago suburbs this week because of the rising threats against it. So we're seeing a real wave of censorship that's targeting really the lives and experiences of marginalized persons and opportunities for them to stand on the public stage. From who, Deborah? Is this from the school boards? Is this from the parents? Is this just some midterm issue that's coming from a bunch of Republican zealots? Like, who are making these calls to have the books banned?

Well, we're seeing groups like Moms for Liberty, parents defending education, and there's other so-called parents' rights groups that are more local, like Purple for Parents in Indiana, that make up lists of bad books. They want to narrow the opportunities for reading and education, for young people in particular. And they go to school board meetings. They go to library board meetings.

Use public comment to focus on one paragraph or one image in a graphic novel and try to claim that this is pornography or this is bad for young people, harmful to students or minors. And they demand the immediate removal of the book. They even use false framing around the idea that this is pornography. And school boards, elected officials are responding to it, in part because I think it is a political wedge issue during the midterms.

We saw that Glenn Yonkin was successful and part in Virginia and winning that gubernatorial seat because he focused on a parent who is unhappy that her 17-year-old honors English student had to read Tony Morrison's beloved. She thought it wasn't fit reading for a 17-year-old going to college. And so she made a commercial for Governor Juncken and they noticed that. So we're seeing it used across the country.

As a parent, it's tough to catch everything. So when my son showed me his reading assignment my heart sunk. It was some of the most explicit material you can imagine. Glenn Yonkin, he listens. He understands parents matter. Join me in voting for Glenn Yon. How do you all fight back with this? How does the ALA fight back against this? Because if the ALA fight back against this? Because if this is a political issue and it's starting to come up, you know,

in terms of legislation right now, how are you all able to support the local libraries and schools to push back on this, you know, for now, at least. What's the most you can do for now to push back on this issue. From our end for the association, we do our best to provide one-on-one assistance to librarians and educators who are dealing with these bookbans, assisting them with the process of addressing the complaints from these groups and individuals who are being, who are activated by social media usually. And then we have resources about best practices and things like that. We have state chapters on the ground too that are able to provide resources and support to individual libraries.

And we also do things like we have a merit. We have something called the Leroy C. Merit Humanitarian Fund. So if a librarian finds that their employment is being harmed or affected or they're experiencing discrimination because of their defense of their students' right to read, we can provide them with financial assistance that helps pay for an attorney to advise them and things like that. But as a community of course there's the ability for individuals to take note of what's happening locally, to go to school board meetings, to participate in their local elections, and to raise their

own voices against censorship, and that's incumbent on all of us. So much of this happens because these groups show up at these board meetings, and they're the only voices in the room. And if you don't have a lot of knowledge, if you don't have a lot of experience with this, it's very easy to think that you're dealing with the majority, but we're not. We know that they're a vocal minority, and everyone needs to be aware of this and participate in local community activity with local elections, local board meetings, both school board and library board meetings. We can even talk a little bit about a grassroots advocacy platform that we've created for individuals and communities to use to fight book censorship in their communities. It's called Unite Against Book Bands.

And it's at Unite Against Book Bands. And there you'll find a toolkit that can help you organize yourself and your neighbors to be present at board meetings and raise your voice, how to where you can find information, talking points, letters to the editors, how to be aware of what's going on in local elections, questions to ask candidates to find out where they stand on this issue. And it's not just elections for boards, it's also elections for mayors, county commissioners, because many boards are appointed and you have to know where your elected officials stand on this issue and you want them to commit to preserving your right to choose what you

want to read for yourself and your family. I will I will say this about this issue. I ain't never seen more people who ain't never read shit More concerned about books And I'm sorry for cussing no, you're absolutely right Often we find that individuals have a never read the book that they're challenging. We actually have instances where Individuals have kind of ripped a list of bad books off of social media and social media is a great amplifier for these groups and their claims about books, but they'll take that list that.???????? th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their too too too too too too toooooo' books. tooo' books. I's too' too' too' too' too' their books. their is a great amplifier for these groups and their claims about books. But they'll take that list to their local library and demand that these books be censored. And then it turns out the book wasn't on the shelf of the library.

And they didn't even know to check the library's cataloged to see if it's there. And it's very clear that when people people the books the books the books the books the books the book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book books the books the books the books the books the books the books the book book book books the book books books books books books books the book books the book books the book books the book books the book. the book book book book book book book book book book book book book. their their their the book book book book book book book book book book. their. their. the book book book book book book book. their. their. their. the book. the book. the book. the book. the the book. the the the the the the the the the book. It's the the the the the the the their. It's their. It's their. We's their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their book. We're their their their book. We're their if it's there. And it's very clear that when people talk about books like All Boys Aren't Blue, they have no idea what's in it. They only know the one paragraph they read on social media. They don't have any acquaintance with the book at all, but yet they're demanding that it be censored for the entire community, whether it's the community of students in a school district or the community as a whole. Okay, so then the the the the the the book. the book.they're, most of it all falls under books that are affecting or written for or speak to the audience of BIPOC or LGBTIA plus authors and consumers. And so your book, All Boys Aren't Blue, specifically, this book is your approach to how your intersectionality at some of these identities affected you and your upbringing and made you who you are today. And so in the final chapter you said, I want to get this right and correct me from

wrong, you said, quote, there were no books for me to read in order to understand what I was going through as a kid. There were no heroes or icons to look up to and emulate. There were no road maps or guidelines for Journey. And again, because I know there wasn't and still isn't much out there, I made it my original goal to get this right, in quote. So let's just start there. Talk a little bit more about that. And what do you feel like was missing from your reading as a kid and why titles like yours

should be a central reading for young adults? Yeah, I only have one quote that's tattooed on me and it's the Tony Morrison quote, if there's a book that you want to read and hasn't been written yet, then you must write it. And so I was writing the book that I always wish that I had when I was a team who was struggling with my identity and trying to Just figure out what it was I was going through and if anybody else in the world was also having those same type of issues Realistically growing up there just weren't images on television and film and especially no images in books of us and if there were any images of us, there were probably slurs being used or hurled towards us. And it's kind of interesting, right? Like I don't remember a whole lot of the readings

that I had in high school, but you know, everybody remembers Catcher in the Rye and Holden Caulfield and how that story didn't resonate with any of us as black students. Talking pigs from Animal Farm. Right, and if I'm not mistaken, it was the term savages being used an invisible man. I'm almost certain, and that's what they were referring to indigenous people as, throughout the entire book. And I, that was what my upbringing was in terms of books, right? Books that even if they did mention other identities outside of people who were white, those identities were oftentimes demonized or being penalized for being who they were. But even when I think about television and film, there was really, I always say,

like, I remember like, there was like a gay character on a show called Spin City with Michael J. Fox. I remember that one. And I was like it was a black man who I believe was like a was like one of the gay characters and so I was like I remember him I remember RuPaul but like outside of those two entities there just wasn't much for us to cling on to or latch on to and that does, when you don't have images of yourself in the world, one, you don't know that you also exist in the world, but two, it almost makes like queer teens and black queer teens have to go through a second adolescence throughout their adulthood because their original adolescents,

they were just trying to protect themselves out of safety and couldn't identify us who they were and had no roadmap for it. And so we unfortunately make a lot of mistakes well into our adulthood. We don't get to have the same experiences around dating. It's like my little brother started dating in 13. Well, if I'm gay and clearly I'm at Catholic school, I can't date anybody. So I actually don't start my dating experience to them well into my 20s, right? So it just continues to put students behind when they don't have source of materials that can actually tell them who they are, what they are, what some of the things that they may go through may look like, and how to navigate the spaces and the things that they are already encountering. Yeah, when you really put it in that perspective, and I'm like, Rewinded in my head, you know, if you're looking at anybody in the LGBTQIA community

in that era of television 80s and 90s, it was definitely a punchline first. Or, if you were a positive character, then the character was not written as openly gay, it was just assumed or implied. Like I'm thinking like Mishak Taylor from Design and Women, where this person just being, are they gay? Are they not? Well, it doesn't matter. They make the plot work. Let's not worry about that character's back story. He's here to support the women and... Like, take me through the day you found out your ass got banned. I almost feel like we were in a different place as a country when you first started writing this book versus when you released it into the pit fires of CRT hell. One, did you know when you were writing this that it

might appear on banned booklist and two, what was your initial feeling when you first found out that your book was under attack by so many of these groups that Deborah was talking about? I knew it was getting banned from from from from from from from from from from from from from from from. the their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi, when when when when when when when when when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when you first found out that your book was under attack by so many of these groups that Deborah was talking about? I knew it was getting banned from the moment I wrote it and I told McMillan, I told my team of Mellon, I was like, well, what are we gonna do when the books get, when the book gets banned? And they were like, why was white and I always say like if I was white and queer and had this story that was very similar to this to this, I would have probably won every award. I would have been heralded on everything. It would have already been a movie. Right. It would have been a whole different thing. But it's like when you are black and queer and you write this particular story. It's like, when you are black and the the the th. you are you. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that th. th. th. th. th. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. How dare you even have the audacity to tell us that you exist, right?

The first notice I got of a book ban was actually, I was on Twitter and somebody added me who followed me and was like, hey, this person in Kansas City is running for school board and like the whole, like their whole platform is built around banning your book. And so I went to Facebook and I saw what the white guy was saying. And so I, it's not really a quote tweet, but like on Facebook, you know how like you could take a post and then write up on a post. So like I wrote above the post.

I don't remember what punchline I used, but I wrote a punchline because if anybody who follows me on Twitter or anywhere knows if I'm a drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag if I th if I th if I'm a drag drag drag drag drag drag drag drag. if I'm a drag drag. if I'm a drag. If I'm a drag drag. If I'm a drag. If I'm a drag drag. If I'm a drag drag. If I'm a drag. If I'm a drag. If I'm a drag. If I'm a th. If I'm a to to to to. I'm, if I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm the the the the the the th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm a th. I'm a th. I'm a th. I'm a th. I'm a th. I'm not thi. thi. th. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. It's thi. It's th. It's th. I'm a drag and carry, I'll drag and carry. And so I dragged him and then he deleted the post. I thought that was it. Honestly, I did. But I had an inkling to set up Google alerts. And I was like, let me set up Google alerts so I can keep track of this. Because if it's happening like this in like very small locales, I won't catch it. And so that was like the end of September of last year. By

November, I think I had hit eight states had already like started to pull the book, but nobody nationally was covering the story yet because nobody knew that this was happening because they were doing it so covertly in such small places. Nobody knew what was happening except for the American Library Association and us as the authors happening except for the American Library Association and us as the authors who were getting the Google Alerts. So then I made a tweet like, hey y'all, just by the way, like my book is banned in the United States,

and it went viral. And so, of course, because I was a former journalist, I have a bunch of journalists who follow me. And so they were all like, wait, what, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, the, the, thi, th. to, th. to, th. th. th. th. I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi. I, thi. I, twea, twea, twea, twea. I was, twea., twea., twea., twea. it. The moment I started speaking out against it, that tweet goes viral on I think a Thursday or a Friday. By that next Friday, that's when the criminal complaint is filed against me in Florida. And the criminal complaint is found against me,

one against the book in Florida. And that's literally when the band book situation went from something very mild to something very, very serious, very, very quickly. Like when she did that, it just became a battlefield. You just can't breeze past criminal complaint, as they say on all the think he should, let's unpack that for a second. Right. What crime were you guilty of? What crime you were alleged to have committed, George? Well the books, the crime the book committed was, because the book has it had its own charge. The crime that the book committed was like under some like pornography act or pornography

law in Florida that she was trying to file it under. The crime I committed, I think she was trying to get me for like intimidation and harassment because I continued to speak out about it, especially after she filed a criminal complaint against my book, I started to speak out about it. And she didn't like that but realistically it was part of the playbook, like because they weren't winning in every like everywhere that they were trying to ban books, they weren't winning in every like everywhere they were trying to ban books they weren't necessarily winning right like we were winning in some of those cases and the ACLU was winning and so once it got to that point where they realized that they weren't winning in some of those

places they do and they try to go to criminal you know criminalization route and they've been doing that across the country now like she was the country. The country now. Like she was the first, and I mean as soon as she did it, North Carolina was next, then I think it was one in South Carolina, then it was one in Iowa, that's when the senator, no, the governor of Iowa went on TV with my book and read the most graphic part of the book on TV and said she was going to pass a law so that nobody could give my book. So that's when they they they they they they they they they they they they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they literally they they were they they were they were they were they were the their. their. their. their. their. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was th. I was th. I was the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I was the th. I was th. I was th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm. I'm. th. I'm. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. that was their next part of their plan was like, okay, if we're not going to win it, if following the rules won't allow us to win because they were following the rules and school boards, even some conservative school boards were like, no, we're not getting rid of all the books. They went the criminal route. And so now they're they're taking it up. We all know what they're trying to get they're they're they're they're they're they're trying to do. They're trying to get it to the Supreme Court. They're trying to challenge the 1982 Pico case that gives students rights to have their books. We're not stupid.

Like we know that first they started at local, then they went to, now that we're at state level. And eventually a federal lawsuit, more likely than that will probably be against me, in the book, and American American the book, the book, the book, their they they they they they they they they they they they they they they, they're their, they're they're they're their, they're their, they're the book and American Library Association. We've actually seen federal legislation introduced that would penalize state funding for schools and literally require the states to allow people to use, I believe they're called 512 plans for tuition set-asides, for religious schools, that they're not allowed to use those plans for, if there's an allegation that the school, the state is tolerating the presence of books that are deemed to be inappropriate by these groups.

We don't think that legislation is going to go anywhere, especially since, well, midterms are coming up, who knows. And they're being bolder, as we saw yesterday. But, you know, we're seeing state legislation. 27 states have adopted some sort of CRT ban. We're seeing now, don't say gay bills. In Florida, they're literally taking all the books out of classrooms. They're so terrified. We now have a lawsuit in Tennessee. A group of parents is suing to remove

curriculum that they believe is teaching white kids to hate their race, quote unquote. And so under the anti-CRT law in Tennessee, they've brought lawsuit. And among the books that they're citing, are Ruby Bridges, autobiography that she wrote for six-year-olds that uses historical photographs of her integrating, uh, integrating, they're their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, th, is th, is th, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, th, their, th, th, th, th, th, th, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thrownean, throwneeean, throwneeeeeean, thean, throwne, the, the, the, she wrote for six-year-olds that uses historical photographs of her integrating her school in New Orleans with all the adults screaming at her and using profanities against her. And they say that's too intense for a six-year-old and it makes them feel bad about their race. They actually attacked a biography of Martin Luther King that shows images of crossing the bridge in Selma and the resulting police attack on the protesters as saying that's

inappropriate for K through 12 students to have access to. And so we'll have to see what happens with this lawsuit, but we're seeing a systematic attack using all kinds of channels to limit and narrow what we can think about to what a very small group of people think is appropriate. This 1952 vision of a white society where there aren't troublesome people who are gay or black or queer or transgender. Yep. all adjudicated at the state and local level by officials that are appointed by people and elections that we deem unnecessary and unimportant. Absolutely. After the break, I want to get a little bit more into this side of it,

the legality of it, but also I want to talk about what we as parents can be doing to talk to get a little bit more into this side of it, the legality of it, but also I want to talk about what we as parents can be doing to talk to our children about their reading choices and how to do this the right way in spite of what might be happening in the schools. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Deborah, I want to start with you again, and just expanding a little bit on what George have been talking about about about. th. the the th. the the th. the th. th. the the th. the to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, the, the, to, to, the, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to, to, the, to, to, the, the, the, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toe. again and just expanding a little bit on what George have been talking about, about this allegation that this book is teaching the children the sexuality and it ain't time for the kid to be learning about the sex and all of that stuff and they're grooming the children, Deborah. What is happening in these conversations that is alleging sexual grooming?

Like you got a you know, wasn't there a book in Texas about farting? Yes, what was that book? My butt is so noisy A noisy butt or something. Nice to but. Well and that was vulgar, you know, that's just too vulgar. I mean we all know that that's the sweet spot for the third grade boys, right? You know if you want them to get them to read read read read read read read read read read read read the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their.. their. their.... their... their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. But. But. But. But You know, if you want them to get them to read, there's Captain Underpants, I need a new butt, you know, what was it, Harry the Farting Dog, you know, and it's a great gateway for those six, seven, eight-year-old boys who are a little slower to pick up reading and you want to generate a love of books and reading in them and you give them these essentially joke books. But we actually know that there was a principle, I believe it was, in Alabama who was fired for reading I Need a New But to a Class of Kids.

He read it in the late afternoon as a treat because they'd done so well all day for him. And as a result, he was fired for, for you know doing vulgar things with the kids but that's separate from what I think is a far more toxic conversation that's going on. These groups like moms for liberty, parents defending education, whatever, are creating a false and toxic framing around materials that deal with gender identity, sexual orientation, and even sex ad, you know, and they're arguing that these books are obscene for minors to read, obscene for the display for minors, or are, you know, whoever writes them or whandering

obscenity to minors. And that's absolutely false. What the, you know, the Supreme Court has told us what obscenity to minors. And that's absolutely false. The Supreme Court has told us what is protected speech in this case, and sex is a protected subject, gender identity, sexual orientation, all these things. If it has educational value, if it has scientific value, artistic value, literature, that's all protected by the First Amendment. But they're trying to shift the needle on this conversation. They're trying to reframe this in a way that gives them the tools they need to censor all

of this material and use the courts and use the law to do it. So we've seen situations like the one in Florida where the person who actually brought the charges in that case was a school board member............. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, the th. And, th. And, the th. And, th. And, the th. And, th. And, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they.e.e. And, they. And, they. And, they, they, they, the, the, the, the, the charges in that case was a school board member who had been recently elected from one of these parents rights groups. He had run for a vacant seat to fill a term and she won. And she was so unhappy with the fact that the board was taking its time in reviewing George's book and comparing it to whether it had been acquired according to policy and met educational needs, that that that's when she went to the sheriff's office to file the charges of obscenity. Now, fortunately, the prosecutor and the sheriff's department in Florida rejected all the charges. They said, this book isn't obscene. And if you want a decision on this book, well, it's the school board that properly makes it according to their policies. But we've also seen this happen in states, in in in in tha, tha, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their policies. But we've also seen this happen in states like Wyoming, a group, I don't

know if you're familiar with mass resistance, but they're an anti-LGBTQ hate groups, and they have a local chapter in Wyoming, and they actually filed criminal charges against the library staff and the public library in Gillette, Wyoming. And again, the library staff... Just for having books. And books that were meant to be, where does baby, where does babies,, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their their their, their, their their, their, their th, thi, thi, their thi, thia, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, their, th again, the library staff. Just for having books. And books that were meant to be, where do babies come from? This is what's happening to your body during puberty books. And then a few books like George's that are intended for young adults who identify as gay or queer and who want to understand what they're going through or, you know, learn something from others experiences so they're going through or learn something from others'

experiences so they can navigate their identity successfully and set up successful relationships as a teen and an adult. In this case, this book is gay by Juno Dawson was one of the targets of these charges. And these librarians lived in fear for three weeks that somebody was going to come and put them in handcuffs and put them in jail for simply providing books to the young adults that asked for those books in their community. Public servants. Fortunately, again, the prosecutor rejected all those charges, said no, no crimes been committed here. These books aren't obscene. And the library did what was supposed to do in providing these books. But we're seeing more and more of this narrative pushed pushed thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the narrative thi, the narrative thi, thi, thi, the narrative, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi. And, thi. And, thi. I's thri. I's thr-a. I's throwne. I's thi. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. the th what was supposed to do in providing these books. But we're seeing more and more of this narrative pushed on boards, on communities. And if you don't have a lot of knowledge about the First Amendment, if you don't have a lot of experience with this kind of litigation, it's easy to be swayed by these arguments

because we don't have a lot of good civic education anymore, that's just my opinion. But, you know, we don't teach to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the narrative the narrative their their their their their their their theiritiea.. theiritie. theirit. theirit. theirit. theirit. theirit. theirit. their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. lot of good civic education anymore. That's just my opinion, but you know, we don't teach civics anymore. We don't teach government. We don't teach government anymore. You know, and they play on this ignorance and they play on parents' fears, you know. What are other band authors saying and doing? We know what you're doing. And you know you've taken up a torch to fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight fight to fight to fight to fight to fight to fight to fight to fight........................... their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, know you've taken up a torch to fight and you have you you almost like in a way to me it's almost like and I know Scarface is not the best analogy but I envision you you were just an author you just trying to sell your book and mind your damn business and

then you looked up at the video camera and you saw all of them right-winged-in-ing your book compounding like oh you want to play rough well then let's you want to go to war let's go to war let's let's have a fight about this but in talking with other authors about this issue what are you seen from them in terms of how they're reacting and what they are doing to strategize against this type tip thip thip th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi. thi thi they's they're they're they're they're they're they're they are they are they are they are they are they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they they they they they they they they they they they're they they're they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're to they're to to they're to they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're to strategize against this type of bullshit? Well, you know, it's tough. It's tough for various nuanced reasons for authors. So one, most authors are not like media trained in the way to address these type of things in a way, like I have a whole background as a journalist.

So when I'm doing these interviews, someone's always going to try, I got your question. Like, they're always going to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to try like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. It th. It th. It th. It try, like, like, like, like background as a journalist so when I'm doing these interviews someone's always going to try I got your question like they're always going to try like, well should any books be banned like or they always try and ask like a question like around that right like like a to kind of like flip it on his head but I always know how to like counter a story not like all authors aren't trained to do that and so you like the the the the th like their like their like their like their like their like their like their like their like their like their like their like their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. they're they're they're they're they're they're their. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're.. they're. they's... they's. they's... they's.. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I they. I's. I th. I th. I th. I te. I te. I te. I te. I try. I try. I always always always always always always always always always always always always try. I like all authors aren't trained to do that. And so you have many of them who fear that they'll get caught up and say something that they shouldn't say or say the wrong thing and then it just spirals out of control. You also have some publishers who, you know,

we just have to be honest and transparent. I'm fortunate that when I made the decision that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was going to fight this like the way that I wanted to fight it, that my publisher was like, let's go for it, like we have your back. That's not everybody's situation. There are many publishers who were like, we're not touching this. We don't, we'll release a statement as a, as an entity, that says we're against this, but outside of that, we really don't want our authors in that type of fire, we don't want our authors in that type of heat, we don't want to have that type of thing happening. And so you don't have many authors who speak out, I would say there's a group of us though who are unapologetically speaking out, like the Tiffin Jackson's, like the Nick Stones, like the Nick Stones, like the Angie Thomas's, myself, Ashley Hope Perez, Leah Johnson. Like, there are some of us who are not afraid to speak out, but it's tough.

Does an author, especially a new author who has written something that is in the crosshairs of being banned, do they run the risk of jeopardizing their career as an author by choosing to fight and going against the will and wishes of their publisher who, hey, just be quiet and we'll just sell what we can and we'll do a couple of activations and you know and well you know this book has the ability to simmer over a cup and then they'll turn around and use the lack of sales to justify not running with you again. So is there a bit of that to some degree with some of the authors the authors the authors the authors the authors thaa tha thia. thia. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to to to be, to be, to be, to to to to to to to to just, to just, to just, just, just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to just, to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi. thi. thi. thi. to to thi. toee. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe, just just, just just, just, just just, just just, just, just just there a bit of that to some degree with some of the authors that are dealing with this? Absolutely. Um, of 100% there's a lot of that too, right? Like because publishing, you know, there are a lot of imprints, there are a lot of places, but

it's just like any other industry. It's just like any other industry and a person can be or a publisher or multiple publishers can be turned off by the fact that you're so vocal, can be turned off by the fact. And I mean, there are even times like we're in contracts that I do, we have to put a clause in there that I'm allowed to still speak out against certain things because a lot of their their clauguuuuuuuu...., ofcla., ofcla, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, ti, ti, ti, ti, the. is issou. thea, thea, thea, too, too, too, too, too, too, toe.e.e. toe. toe. thea, can't thea, can't their, can't, the people from talking about certain subjects or talking in certain ways without the approval of their publishing house. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. That's more of a protection thing to make sure that, you know, authors aren't just saying whatever they want to say, wherever they want to say it.

But I also think because we're in an unprecedented moment, a lot of people just aren't sure how to react to it. I think some people aren't sure if this is like a Situation that's just going to pass once the midterms are done, you know, because they they always try to find something new and so we're not sure. I don't think it's going to pass, but we're still not sure, right? Because it was like, remember, it was Antifa. the tien't. the the the the their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. T, th. th. their, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. They're th. They're th. They're th. They's is is th. They's th. They's th. They's, th. They's, th. They's is, their, their, their, their, their, their. They's is is is is, their. their. their. They's is is, their. their is their is, their is just just just just just just just just just just just just just, their th. They're th. It's t. It's t. It's t. It's t. th. th. th. thee. th. th. th. their their their their time you heard anybody say Antifa? They don't say it anymore, right? It was Black Lives Matter. The only time now that you ever hear them say Black Lives Matter is because now they're arresting those capital rioters, right? And so that's the only time you ever hear anybody say it is because they're trying to juxtapose it. But outside of that, they don't say it the th, the, the, the, th, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb, thr, they, they, they, they, they're, they, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're, they're, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they.e, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their is this going? Right? Like, let's say the midterms,

there isn't some big red wave and they keep the, and thems to actually keep the house in the Senate. I'm not sure if they're going to keep fighting for this, right? But if they do flip a chamber or flip both chambers or whatever, then this may continue to be their fight. I think this issue, the issue, the issue, the issue, the issue, thue, tho, tho, tho, thia, thian, thian, thus, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and them, and the, and the, and the, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and them, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and them, and thin, and thin, and them, and thin, and them, and thin, and them, and them, and them, and them, and probably been one of the top issues had the Roe v. Wade situation I haven't installed the thunder of everything and kind of shifted the whole midterm but I do think that this is still a very very important issue and that's why I continue to choose to fight it because it's not just about taking my book out of a library or taking our books out of certain libraries like our books are saving lives the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi's thoes thoes the the the thoes thoes. the the the to the the to bea the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. I I I. I. I. I. I's the. I's the. I'm toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo-te. tea. te. te. Ioe not just about taking my book out of a library or taking our books out of certain libraries. Like our books are saving lives.

We have the emails, we have the direct messages, we have all of that that these students and that these teams send us that that let us know that literally like these kids were on the brink. And somebody handed them our book and it changed the trajectory of their entire life. And so that's why we fight so hard, because we can't let that, we just can't let it happen. Absolutely. Deborah, where does the line stop then? Because we could go books, we could go a book's books, we could go e-books. This has the whole potential to cross over into the digital world and the internet. What's to stop a school from school the school the school the school their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. We's th. We're th. We're th. We just th. We just. We just thi. We just th. We just that's that's that's that's that's, we just that's, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just, we just. We just. We just. We just. We's, we just. We's, we just. We's, we just. We's th. We' th. We're th. We're th. We're thi. We're thi. We're thin. We just thin. We just thin. We just th. We just th. We just th. We just th. We just th. We just th. We just thi. We just thi. We just thi. We just thi. We just thi. What's to stop a school from saying, all right, now that we got all these books banned, what's up with these newspapers? Let's start blocking all the IP? They're already doing that. You know, they've already enacted bans into reading anything from

the New York Times dealing with the 16-19 project. That's law, that's law in 17 states. Law. Now, whether that stands up to the legal challenges, right now, I have to give a little boost to ACLU. They're challenging CRT bills, laws in New Hampshire, Oklahoma and Florida, and don't say gay in Florida. So props to them. We'll see how that falls out, but I'm terrified given the appointments to the judiciary over the last four years. But we'll set that aside. But we're already seeing it. We saw a whole public library district in Texas pulled the plug on their entire e-book platform because they didn't like the fact that George's book and genderqueer by Mayor Khababi were part of the e-book collection and to kill the entire ebook

access for two books. All the books? All the books. All the books. All the books. What they are the Bear Steam Bears? They ain't done that to nobody. Well what's worse is that they're a world community and they have a lot of elderly and disabled folks in the community that relied on digital ebook access. This elderly woman says who's how am I the the the to to to to to the the to the to the th the th th th the th th th th the the th th th th th th their tho their their tho thi thi their th. tho. their their their tho. tho. their their books. All. All. All. All. All. All. All. All. the books books books books books books books books books books books books books books books books books books books. the book book book book book the book the book the book the book the book the book the book their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. th. their their their their their their their their their their their their the book. their the book. th. their th. the community that relied on digital e-book access. This elderly woman says, how am I going to read my weekly romance? I can't get out, I don't drive, I use large print on the screen. And now they've taken that all away. And the board didn't care, the elected officials didn't care. They were more concerned about the small group in the community that was claiming

that books like George's were pornography and harmful to minors, and they bought that. And they actually replaced the library board with the actual sensors in that community. Now, that's being challenged in a lawsuit, but that's going to be a long remedy for that. It'll be years before that is resolved, if at all. You know, it shouldn't be that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that we have that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. to thi. tooo. to. too. too. too. too. too. th. th. thi. thi. thi. th. thi. th. th. to be a long remedy for that. It'll be years before that is resolved, if at all. You know, it shouldn't be that we have to go to court to preserve our civil liberties, our right to read, and our right to have equal access to a community resource like the books in the library and have the resource reflect everyone's lives in the community. And it's just really terrible, but I don't, you know, digital has made it worse.

It's not only taking away digital access, it's the ability to track what people are reading and viewing on the screen, and we're seeing that happen to K-12 students. You effectively have no privacy if you have a school-issued laptop or Chromebook. And, you know, they've actually turned on cameras after school hours and there was one young person in Pennsylvania who actually was arrested for drug use because he had some kind of hard candy on his desk that was shaped like a capsule and the IT department in his high school turned

of into the police. You know that you know you know, again, eventually resolved, but we, why are we tolerating the situation? Why are we taking away young people's rights, the privacy to their right to read? It's just, it's beyond imagining right now. To that point about selection and agency, George, so I have a six-year-old. Now, we try to let this boy choose what he want to eat. And for the most part, he's a hide. Like, if you ask him for what you want for breakfast, he will choose from an array of breakfast options. He won't just say I want cupcakes.

We try to monitor the educational tablet time. So there's this app called Epic Reading. And Epic Reading lets you swipe through whatever book you want to find.. He. He, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, to to to the, he, he, to to to to the he, he, he, he, he, he's, the thi, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's thi, he's, he's the thi, he's thi, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the. So there's this there's this app called epic reading and epic reading lets you swipe through whatever book you want to find and he's old enough to spell so he can search by topic. His thing is ninjas. If as long as you're reading I don't care he's some book called cat ninja he is obsessed with cat ninja and so I feel like as a parent I've kind of transition from something that my parents were in, which was very much, you're gonna read this, or you had a sign reading. You know, I'm from Alabama,

Birmingham Public Schools, where here's one slavery book and the hobobbent. Here's another slavery book and Baywood. Like those, that was kind of the oscillation of things, but like when we talk about agency. So, so, so, so, so, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're, you're, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, thea, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thea, thea, thi, thi, ths, but like when we talk about agency, so in your book, you know, you talked about, you know, a child wearing a basketball headband for instance. And like if we use wardrobe as an example, you said, quote, rather than saying you are wearing this, I hope more adults will ask, what would you like to wear and then have a conversation about these choices. So if we apply that same concept to reading,

what conversations can a parent be having, if they're raising a BIPAC or a LGBTQIA plus child, what are they missing out on by not having those conversations and making sure that kids are getting reading materials that speak specifically to their child's experiences? Yeah, I mean, the real things they're missing out on is that there's this, they're just assuming that their child is okay. And they're assuming that their child is like, just navigating life okay because their child hasn't said anything to them. And I think it's interesting, right? Because like, and I've talked about it with even like, their family, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the book. But it's just interesting because it was like,

well, everybody knew I was queer, but nobody ever said it. And so I'm navigating my life with the bare minimum of resources that I have, but I have these guardians around me who are protecting me and who are doing all of the right things in their mind, but the one thing that they couldn't bring themselves to do was just ask me the question or sit down and talk with me about it. Because there's a real fear for some reason that has been built in this country, that parents and kids should not be having adult conversations, even though parents are trying to prepare their children for adult hood. And th. and th. and th. and th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th, and th. And th, and thi thi they they thi they their their they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they are they are thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi they they're they're they're they parents are trying to prepare their children for adulthood. And realistically, that's what's being missed, right? And so I liken it to the fact that we will send kids to college,

but we will never teach them how to do their own taxes. And then at 21 they leave college, they get their first job, they have no idea what a one exemption is or two exemption is, a zero exemption. And so you're like, we're literally just sending them out into the world ill-equipped. The whole notion that, oh, this, the topic of sex is too heavy for my 14 to 18 year old because be clear my book is for 14 to 18 year olds. So then you're like okay well if the topic of sex is too heavy for your 18 year old then you send your 18 year old to college with no framework around sex what exactly do you think is going to happen and how do we know that we are lacking in teaching 14 to 18 year olds about sex?

Because we can look at the rates of sexual assault, sexual misconduct, and rape on college campuses across the United States and how rampant it is. And a lot of that is because we are not teaching sex education before we send them off into the world with raging hormones that we never talk them about. And then theyed them about. And then they're making poor decisions. Just base level no means no reading body language, just how not to raise an asshole. Right, and so that's what we're missing out on.

And that's what a lot of parents are missing out on. Because parents are keep saying, I should have the right to teach this heavy topic in my home. And we're like, I don't disagree with that, but you're also not teaching that heavy topic in your home. So you can't have it both ways. Like you can't have it where you're like, I don't think the school should be teaching them this or this or they should be getting this at school because that should be my in-home decision that that..... that that that should that should that should that should be my that we make as a parent, but then it's like, okay, but then your child comes home and you're still not teaching them that, and you're still not talking to them about that, and you're still not giving them access to it. So where exactly do you think they learn it from?

And even in the section in the book that they're attacking the most, they're flipping, learn about sex through pornography. It is what it is. They sneak and watch it. I was a teenager who sneaked off and watched it. My friends were teenagers who sneaked off and watched it. And so when we're going through puberty, we're literally just pulling from any resource that we can access because we keep getting denied the actual resources that we really need. So instead it's like, oh, well, I'm going to take George's book away from you. It doesn't stop your teens yearning to still know the information, but what it does is it means

that they're going to now go down dangerous paths to get it. And that's all we're trying to prevent. We just want to be able to say here's the roadmap instead of almost like a, what was those things used to call, when you used to have to search and find stuff, scavenger hunt, right? It's like, rather than you having to go on a scavenger hunt for the information, we just want to give them the information. But instead, they think that when we introduce these heavy topics, or that when the students get a book and they read the book, they think we're introducing these heavy topics to them and what we're trying to tell them is,

no, your teens are already going through this. They're already dealing with sexual assault. They're already dealing with and they're having these conversations. But y'all think we're introducing what we're already experiencing. Yeah, it's that fantasy if they don't read about, if the books aren't there to tell you about it, then it's the parents can pretend it's not happening. And we know that that's not it, you know? Badding the book isn't going to take away the fact

that kids are dealing with these issues on a regular basis, experiencing it. And you know what would you rather have? A librarian or an educator making choices about and curating good content that addresses these issues in a responsible fashion that gives good information, accurate information or you know out on the internet looking at pornography. I you know often say you know we're banning books but let's look at that phone that unrestricted, unfiltered phone in the back pocket of every young person, you know. Okay, be clear.

I definitely want to try and spin this into something positive because if it's one thing Americans love is stuff that's banned and forbidden and that you have limited access to. Low-key, ban books week might be the thing that they didn't want to happen. That's gonna happen. I wanna unpack that a little bit with you, George. And also I wanna figure out ways, Debra, that we the people can join the fight to help change this. We're talking Ban Books on Beyond the Scenes.

We're talking Band Books. We'll be right back. Beyond the scenes, we're rounding third, headed for home. We're talking band books. Now, let's discuss band books week, which is this week. George, now you are the honorary chair. Run us through the week. What's on the agenda of ban. Is there a brunch included? I love a good brunch. I know. Do a brunch or a barbecue or block party. Anything with a bee? Okay. Yeah, so this is the 40th anniversary of band books week. And I'm. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the the the the the the the the the th. th. the. th. th. th. th. th. th.. Okay. Yeah, so this is the 40th anniversary of Bandbooks week and I'm really excited that I was chosen to lead it. Interesting, I guess interestingly enough, like, band books have always been like a thing, it's just never been this big of a thing.

So I think it's exciting because so many people are like interested in like, talking to the authors and hearing from us. And th. and th. and th. and so, and so, and so, and so, and the the the th. And so, and the the the the the the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and their their thus, and I, and I, and I, and I'm thi, thi, their their thi, to to to to, to, to to to thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their are like interested in like talking to the authors and hearing from us. And so we have virtual events lined up. We have one with the Emancipator, which I believe was, I think that was, was that Frederick Doug with his original newspaper? I know they brought it back. They brought back the Emancipator. It's now under the Boston Globe family. So we have an amazing robust panel conversation with Sarah Kate, who's the president of Glad, Leah Johnson will be there, and several other authors will be there. I'll be moderating that conversation. I'll also be on Tamarhan Hall coming up soon to talk about Bam.

She's been an avid supporter of books and against the book fans. We have you know some virtual like I said several virtual events lined up this week. A in-person event and I believe in DC with Dr. Ebraum X Kendi. Yeah so it's really really exciting. We have some Instagram live things going on, some Facebook live things going on. Yeah we just wanted you know wanted to make sure that people got to hear from the authors. Instagram live things going on, some Facebook live things going on. Yeah, we just wanted, you know, wanted to make sure that people got to hear from the authors, that people understood, you know, the importance of fighting against censorship.

And just having a really good time, being proud of being banned. Like, I'm proud to be banned. I think everybody can tell by now. You know, me being banned, got, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, their their their their their their their their their their their thime, their thime, thime, things, thime, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, tho, things, things, tho, thooo, thoooooooo, thooooomoomorrow, things, things, th't know about anybody. I think everybody can tell by now, you know, me being banned got me on a New York Times best-seller list so Yeah, it got me on New York Times and it got me in the top 10 list right under, I think my book is right above Tony Morrison. And so I always tell everybody like that's probably the only list I'm ever make with Tony Morrison so I'm going to take that as a that that that that that that that th. th. to to to to to to to to to the to to to to to to the to the to to to to take that as a badge of honor. But yeah, Bandbooks, we wanted to make sure that we did something a little bit different this year

and really go hard at it and really, almost re-put the messaging back out there because school just started again. So of course, they're starting again. And so Bandbook Week is now, our moment to really, really start again. Yeah, and really we have a whole calendar of thiiiiiiiii thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, we thi, we to make to make to make to make to make thi, thi, we tho-a, we tho, we tho, tho, tho, th. We th, th. We, th, th, th, th, th. We, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. We, th. th. th. We, th. th. th. I I I th. I th. I th. I to th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thateanan. thean. tho. really start again. Yeah. And really, we have a whole calendar of things going on, both nationally and locally. If you go to Bandbooks Week.org, you'll be able to find the calendar of all these events. There's a lot of in-person events going on at local libraries and schools and community centers. But we're also doing things like a virtual readout with authors and students who are part of the kids' right

to read project at NCAC. And a number of all these events that, you know, social media and things like that, that'll be a real great thing. One thing to remember about Ban Books Week. Tuesday of Bam Books Week is National Voter Registration Day. And so we're taking that opportunity to encourage everyone to make sure

that they know whether they're registered to vote or not, if they're not to register to vote, and to educate themselves about what's going on at elections at the local level. And we're gonna really build a whole series of promotions and events around that fact and take advantage of the coincidence. Yeah, know who you voting for. Don't just vote for somebody because they gotta, I'd be falling for them nice pictures, some of them politicians be having.

You don't read the platform. They'd be like, ban everything. I'm like, damn, I already checked yes on this person. Are there any other resources that people like me, you know, like let's talk hope and optimism. What else can we look to, you know, as we continue to see band books in the news? Well, you can understand that you can do something about this as an individual and you can get your networks, your community groups to join you in this.

And I mentioned earlier, United Against Book Bands, and the resources that are available on that website that anyone can use to organize their friends, their church groups, their connections, their networks, to be aware of what's going on locally, and to be that louder voice in the room that speaks up in favor of the right to read, the right to choose and the importance of making sure that your library reflects everyone's lives and choices. And then

there's other things that individuals can do, you can. Well we have a Dear Band Authors campaign. We have, and actually we're going to start a Deer Librarians campaign this year, encouraging people to send postcards to librarians because they've been under particular attack this season of censorship. And so we're just inviting people to use these resources to look beyond Ban Books Week. You know, for so long, Bambuics Week has been to do their thu. You know, for so long, we to to to to to to to the to to their their to to their their thiiiiiiiiii thi thi thi thi, we to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start to start their their to start to start to to to to to to to start to start to start their their to start their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thia. tip. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. Wea. We can can. Weir today. Weir today. We're today. We're today. We're to to to use these resources to look beyond Ban Books Week. You know, for so long, Ban Books Week has been one week. And we talk about celebrating the freedom to read.

We celebrate the authors who've gone through banning and celebrate the right to make choices about our reading. But I think this year we have to have Ban Books Week all year round. We have to have that awareness that we have this promise promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise promise the promise promise promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the the the the the the the the the promise the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tomombsombsombsombseauuuxememem books books book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book book books books their their their books.auxxxx this year we have to have Bambook's week all year round. We have to have that awareness that we have this promise that we can read anything we want, we can think about anything we want under the First Amendment, and we have to protect that. And the only way to do that is becoming engaged locally. We have an aphorism. All library politics are local. All school politics are local.

We need to take that to heart and just take on that duty to become engaged at the local level and to raise our voices together to empower ourselves to speak out. Okay. Last question, Deborah Caldwell Stone, director of the American Library Association's Office for Intellectual Freedom. And they are George M. Johnson, author, and former journalist, and proud band author. Give me the two of you some of your favorite band, but other than all boys aren't blue. Other than George, you don't get to name your book, George. Other than that, what are some of your favorite band books? Just throw out a couple of titles for our listeners to go and try and dig up.

I have to be honest, one of my more life-changing reads was the absolutely true diary or part-time Indian by Sherman Alexi. I actually have family who lives in the area of Washington State that he grew up on the Res Inn and I had no idea what was going on beyond the country roads I was traveling on to go visit family. And it was just an eye-opener. It was that door, that window into another life and gaining an understanding of the struggle to have an education.

I so deeply appreciate that book and I recommend it to anyone. And I'm a recovering attorney so almost incumbent on me to throw out to kill a mockingbird, although it's kind of cliched and things. You know, but you know, I find when I read through the list of Bambucks, you know, I have that experience that I had with absolutely true diary. They turn out to be life the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their the tha tha tha tha tha tha tho tho thoe thoe thoe, thoeaugh. I tho, tho, tho, tho-s, tho-s, tho-s, tho-scoe, thoving. I'm thoving. I'm thoving. I'm thoe cauiauiauiauiauiauiauiaughe. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the-s out the-s out the-s out the-s out thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooea tea tea tooea tooea that experience that I had with absolutely true diary. They turn out to be life-changing, eye-opening, thought-provoking, you know, books, and I recommend anyone the reading list of this year's BAM books, top 10 BAM books list, which you can find on the ALA website at ALA.org as a reading list.

Of course, George's book is on that list, but... Yes. I have the list hanging up. It's right here to the right of me. Hanging on the wall. Yeah, lawn boy, definitely. Ton Morrison's the bluest eye, which I'm still like, I don't get it. I'm shocked. I'm like, how is that being challenged all these years? I think Beloved is also challenged. And I think I'm specifically going to talk about Beloved because I remember when the movie Beloved came out

and a lot of us struggled with it and we're like, I don't understand it, I don't get it. And then one of my friends, her name is Dr. Jen Jackson. She refrained beloved the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I'm th, I'm th, I'm th, I'm th, I'm th, I'm, I'm, I'm th, I'm th, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm friends, her name is Dr. Jen Jackson, she refrained Beloved, and she was like, the problem is, y'all aren't reaing Beloved as a black horror story. And she was like, if you go into the mindset of like how Jordan Peel is doing black, like these black horrors, she was like, read Beloved but read it from the mind,

but theymea, told me my mind. One, it blew my mind. And once again, Tony Morrison was well ahead of her time. But two, I think everybody should go back and reread Beloved from the mindset of, I'm not looking at this as a love story or a tragedy, but I'm looking at this as a horror. Because that's, it truly, if you read it, it will teach you how to build upon if you want to be a horror writer or, you know, it just has so much texture to it. So yeah. Okay.

Well, that's all the time we have for today. George, thank you to you. to you as well. Thank you. Thank you. By now, we have taken Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast. This has been a Comedy Central Podcast.

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