The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Yuval Noah Harai Teaches Children about Evolution | Jane Marie On The World of Multi-Level Marketing

Episode Date: March 23, 2024

Ronny Chieng chats with historian and bestselling author, Yuval Noah Harai, to discuss his new children's book called, "Unstoppable Us, Vol. 2: Why the World Isn't Fair." He shares with Ronny how evolutionary history helps explain children's behaviors, such as calling their moms if there's a monster under their bed or eating a bunch of sweets at once. Plus, Journalist and author Jane Marie sits down with Michael Kosta and Desi Lydic to discuss her new book “Selling the Dream,” which dives into the world of Multi-Level Marketing. They go deep into the allures of MLMs, the top-down recruitment system, how they prey on the underpaid women’s American dream, and the difficulty the FTC has in combating them.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Survivor 47 is here, which means we're bringing you a brand new season of the only official survivor podcast on fire. And this season we are joined by fan favorite and Survivor 46 runner-up, Charlie, Charlie, I'm excited to do this together. Thanks, Jeff. So excited to be here, and I can't wait to bring you inside the mind of a survivor player for season 47. Listen to On Fire the official Survivor podcast starting September 18th wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. My guest tonight is a historian, philosopher, and best-selling author of Sapiens. His latest children's book is called Unstoppable Us, Volume 2, Why The World Isn't Fair.

Please welcome Yuvau Noah Harari. All right, Yuval. Thanks for joining me. I've been watching your stuff for the last like over 10 years, since before I came to America. Love it. You kind of specialize in dealing with the history of humanity and the rise and falls of civilization. What made you think that was an appropriate topic for children? This is some pretty heavy stuff, man. Yes, but you know, you need to understand history

to know even the most basic things about yourself. Like when I was a kid, I often woke up in the middle of the night afraid that there's a monster under the bed, which happens to a lot of children. Yes. And you call your mom, but you also want to know why is it happening? Right. And history actually holds the answer. What is the answer? Because this is really a memory from hundreds of thousands of years ago when humans lived

in the savannah and there are actually monsters, cheetahs, lions that came to eat kids. In the middle of the night. Okay, you see, so is that something you want kids to know that? That these monsters were once real and they killed kids in that sleeve. It's important to know that because you then understand your own emotions and feelings better. You know, you understand that I'm not crazy to be afraid of these things. Or for instance, you know, lots of kids like adults, they wonder why do I like to eat so much stuff that isn't good for me. Is something wrong with my body? And again, history holds the answer. What is the answer?

Because all those hundreds of thousands of years ago, it actually made sense. If you walk along the savannah and you find something sweet, like sweet fruits, it makes sense to eat as much of it as quickly as possible. Because if you eat just one or two fruits and go away, bythe time you come back the baboons ate everything so it makes sense under those conditions. Now today it doesn't make sense when you open the refrigerator and find a chocolate cake to eat all of it but your body doesn't know. Your body basically follows the program of evolution from all

those years ago. Yeah, it's a program. So if you can't do anything, stop it. No, you can stop it. But understanding yourself better is an important step to having greater control of your life. Those are good examples, but I'm going to quote your book here. Yes. Let's get to the chapter in this children's book called Diarrhea Days.

Where, I quote, someone who got diarrhea couldn't keep down any food or water and sometimes they died from it. Is this something you really want kids to know? Yes, because it actually explains where most of the epidemics and infectious diseases came from. Hunter gatherers suffered from no epidemics. They lived in very small bands. If somebody had diarrhea, then immediately all the band moved to another place. And in any case, only like a few people could get it.

But once people switched to agriculture and we had the big agriculture revolution, then you have thousands of people stuck permanently in the town. The first humans a lot of berries and shed their pants and moved on and yeah. How do you tell that to kids though? Like what's your approach to telling, you know, how do you even, everything you just told me as a, as a, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, toda..a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a, their, their, the to telling, you know, how do you even, everything you just told me as an adult I'm fascinated by. But when you tell a kid, are they, you know, they're like, okay, give me more berries. You know, how do they, you know, how do they absorb the lesson you're trying to tell them? I hope that it's written in such a way that even somebody who is eight or th is, th is, th is thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they is they is they is they's is eight, they're is eight, they're is eight, thi, they're thi, they're they're they're they're like, they're like, you they're they're like, you know, they're like, they're like, you know, you know, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're they're they're they're they're they're they're like, they're like, they're like, they're like, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they're like, they're like, they're they're they're like, they're they're like, they're like, you know, they're like, you know, they're like, they're more difficult to write for kids than for adults. I agree. Because with adults, if you don't know something,

you just use these complicated words and long sentences. And they think they don't understand you because they don't understand. With kids, you have to speak very simply. Yeah, like sometimes we died from diarrhea. Yeah. See, so this is what I think. This is what I think. I think you wrote, you've written Sapiens before, which is a great book for adults. And I think that there's too many dumb people who couldn't understand what you're saying. So you wrote this.

Not for kids, you wrote this for dumb adults. That's really what this is. This is a book. You took your thing, you put some pictures in it. See, there's an illustration of someone dying from diarrhea. This isn't from here, this is for dumb adults, right? That's one explanation. Right. And you want, and like, you know, I feel like a lot of what you're telling us is the message that history is trying the theell us now. I feel like that's what you're trying to decode right now. A lot of it and I guess what is the message that history is trying to tell us now?

Many messages. I mean one thing is to beware of unintended consequences of what we do. Like again the agricultural revolution, people thought it was a good idea. It's th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tholome th. th. thi th. thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, a lot the thi, a lot the th. A lot thi, a lot thi, a lot thi, a lot the thi, a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot thi, a lot the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. I thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the is theate is theateateateateateateate. I theateateateateateate. I theateateate. I the is So same lesson for the big revolutions of right now, like AI. The more important message is that the world in which we live have been created by humans, and therefore humans can change it. If something is unfair, it's not the laws of nature that created, you know, our economy, our nations, our religions, they're all created by human beings. Right.

And... And... Yeah, you see, that's... That sounds hopeful. that's... That sounds hopeful. that's, it sounds hopeful. You know, if you're like, oh, no, humans did all tho.

thoo tho tho thii. thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. What hope do we have? No, I know, but what hope do we have of changing things? I mean, how much of, I guess what I'm saying is how much of this is inevitable, you know? Like when you study history, you go... No, history is never deterministic. I mean, like, you think about technology. Like, you think about technology. You think about the same technology, but they use electricity in a slightly different

way. One place they produce K-pop, and just up north, big hats and missiles. So... Okay, okay, uh... Am I supposed to just take that? Or am I supposed to just take that? Okay, fine, well... On the most serious level, again, people have a lot of fears about technology, what it will do to our politics. But again, you think about South Korea and North Korea, so same people, same history, same technology, and you have a liberal democracy on one side and a totalitarian regime on the other. So it's not a technology that is shaping our politics or our regimes. It is what we decide to do with the technology.

Sure. Well you say that you say that we are in charge of the technology in a way. Yeah. But you know the kind of one of the thesis statements of your book is that we're all going to get replaced by technological beings. If we make the wrong decisions. Again it's not inevitable. AI like electricity like you know the earliest I don, again, it's not inevitable. AI, like electricity, like, you know, the earliest, I don't know, writing, when people invented writing. So, you can do many things with the technology of writing. You can write poetry, you can write taxes. You can write, you can say, fuck you as well.

You can. You can. But again, it's a choice of people. Actually, interestingly enough, the first person that we know his name, he was not a conqueror, he was not a big prophet or king. He was a geek. He was an accountant. Like we have these stone and clay tablets from ancient Mesopotamia with accounts of payments and receipts and salaries and stuff like that signed by these ancient geeks and they are the first people.

Okay, so, you keep calling these people geeks and I'm like, do you like them or you don't like them? I don't know, are they good or are they bad? They're good, I mean, Jesus said, the geek would inherit the earth, no? All right. So back on that topic, so you keep saying, you know, stories are the superpower of humans in a way, right? Everything we kind of do, if you think about it from culture to politics, even money. Yeah, money is the greatest story ever told. It's the only story everybody believes.

Sure. And you know, it's, when you look at it, it has no value in itself. The value comes only from the stories we tell about it. As every cryptocurrency guru or Bitcoin enthusiast, no, it's all about the stories. There is nothing else. It's just about the story. There is nothing else. It's just a story. Okay. So is it real? Is it real? Is it telling me invest in Bitcoin right now? I don't know what?

So is there a good thing or bad thing? I think? It's kind of a cyclical thing. If enough people people believe in it, then you can go to the supermarket and buy whatever you want. If people lose faith in the story, then it's worth nothing. And that's true of the Bitcoin, it's true of the dollar, and of every other currencies that people ever invented. Okay, you see, when you talk about these things, you're always very objective. You always be like, hey, man,

I'm just tel you just tell you how it is. You know, because when you talk about history, you always like, you know, humans came out and then some of the Aberries and, you know, you maintain this kind of academic objectivity. But what, what makes, yeah, but what actually do you go, this is awful? What makes you go, what makes you go, what makes you go? What makes you go, what makes you go, because you seem to be okay of everything. Like what what makes you go now? The question about every story whether about money AI whatever is whether it's increases or decreases the suffering in the world Yeah, you see this is a non-answer just tell me what you hate. Tell me what you hate what I hate?

Yeah. Okay. So okay, can we tell this right now? So you think that um? You're openly atheists? Yes. So can you clarify right now that God is just made up? Yes, okay, so God? to th? th? th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. the the th. they? the th. they? they? they? they? the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they? they? they? they? they? thi? thi. thi. thi te? tell? tell? telle a telle a telle a telle a tell they. they? thi they? they? the the you clarify right now that God is just made up? Yes. Okay, so God is made, we had it here? Okay, God, can you say into a camera, please, we need that. Humans created God. Okay, great. We settled it. This guy, we solved it.

We solved it. It's. Again, it should be emphasized just because human created it doesn't mean it's bad. It can also do good things for us. Stop, stop hedging this. Just let it ride. Just go, this sucks. We need more.

See, this is my problem. I think we need more people with kind of objectivity, calmly discussing things. I don't think that's, you know, is anything in what you're seen with humanity telling you that we can pull ourselves out of all these downslides in history? Absolutely. I mean, humans have ignored. All the problems we face, we also have the resources, we also have the problems we face, we also have the resources to deal with them.

Whether it's climate change, whether it's the rise of AI, we have the resources. And the ability to cooperate with another. But, whether, whether, whether, whether, whether, whether, whether, whether, whether, whether, th, I, I, I, I, I, th, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, I, I, th, th, th, th, th, I, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th,the motivation and the ability to cooperate with another. But I mean, some people think that to solve the big problems, you always need to use violence. Like you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. But when you look at history, it's absolutely not true. You think, for instance, about the feminist revolution, after thousands of years of a huge injustice, feminism made a huge

change in the social structure of humanity, without starting any wars, without assassinating anybody, no guillotins in City Square. So that's one of the hopeful examples of how people can just by changing the story also change the world. I mean the idea that stories... I think you're converting people to your religion right now. The idea is that the story's kind of fuel history, there is a positive promise there that if it's all about power the only way to change power structures is with violence but if it's really at

least in part about the stories people believe then potentially by talking with people and changing the stories in which they believe you can change the world. Okay that's very optimistic right. I'm not hopeful. So I mean one last question, one thing that I very optimistic, but... I'm not hopeful. So, I mean, one last question. One thing I really enjoyed by your work is that you like to tie kind of current modern behavior to like our evolutionary beginnings. For example, you know, like you said, we ran, we wake up in the middle of the night when we're kids because we ran from actual monsters when we were children.

So, I just like to know, why is it that whenever I pee, I shiver? Like, what was the evolutionary reason? Maybe you should ask a doctor, I'm not sure. No, no, no, I'm asking you, Mr. Expert. I'm not an expert on everything. All right, the last thing I found very interesting is, you said that like, right now we have humans composing things. And th, th, th, th, th, th, and you, th, and you, th, and you, th, the th, and you, th, they, and you, th, th, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like we have humans composing things and AI amplifying it. That's our current situation. You say in the future we're going

to have AI composing things and amplify it. Already the images you saw before of AI generating fake images, yes. This is basically a kind of art. Sure. So it's still the first steps, right? But AI is still a baby. It's like, you know, 10 years since the start of the major AI revolution. So we haven't seen anything yet. And it is very likely that in a couple of years or decades, much of art, many of the stories we believe, even religion will be increasingly created by this alien intelligence and not by human intelligence. Okay, see that's bad. That's a bad thing.

Well, you just said that. That's not good. That's a very dangerous thing, yes, absolutely. Okay, so are you going to say, f-bid that? Can you at least say that's bad? Yeah, that's bad. Okay, good. I finally got him to say something bad. Okay, I don't know. I guess I'm equal parts hopeful and pessimistic about the future. I'm sorry.

That's a good stance. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a balanced stance, yeah. All right. Thank you so much for seeking to me. Unstopable as, volume two is available now. You vow, Noah Harare, everybody.

This election cycle has already been quite a ride. Scared, nauseous, wishing this thing had seatbelts, Pod Save America is here to help. I'm John Lovett and each week me and my co-hosts, John Favreau, Tommy Vitor and break down the political news that makes you laugh, cry, and scream into the void to help you figure out what matters and what each of us can do about it. Pod Save America, the context the context the context the context the context the the the the the the the the the the context you need for next week's news, when you won't be burdened by what has been. Listen and subscribe to POD Save America on your favorite podcast platform now.

told, the tri-Dennapppppp. the trim. That's a million-dollar industry bankrupting Americans. Please welcome Jane Marie. Hi. I wrote a book. She wrote a book.

Yes, she wrote a book. Yes, you did. And I wrote a book. Yes, you did. And I tore right through it. It's a great read. It's fascinating. Thank you. It came out today, so I haven't heard any feedback. I don't know what anyone thinks of it. Is this the first feedback that you're getting? Yeah, outside of the people that help me write it.

Well, it's a great book. Thank you how much we enjoyed it. This world is fascinating. You go deep into the world of MLMs. And people call them by many different names. MLMs, network marketing, direct sales. You can't call them that. You can't. No, because I'll get sued. You can't call them that, but right here on the cover art. I got a lot of help with the cover cover th cover th cover th cover th cover th. th. to cover to cover th. to cover th. th. to cover th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. tho. tho. too. too. too. too. to to too. too. too. too. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be, to be, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It, I. It, I. It, I. It, I. It, I. It, the the the the the t. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. M. of help with the cover art. Yes. What it what exactly is an MLM? So a multiple marketing company is a business is shaped like this slightly. But we can't call

it a pyramid. Yeah, there's a couple people at the top. Then they have their upline, the top sellers who are supposed to recruit like usually five people each. And then they're have the up line, the top sellers, who are supposed to recruit, like usually five people each. And then they're supposed to recruit five people infinitely. And the way the money flows is that each person who signs up pays like a fee at the beginning to sign up. Or sometimes they have to pay for some products and stuff, but they're paying those fees in, and then they fail pretty quickly, usually, and then more people sign up. So that's where the money comes from. And isn't it something like 99?

99% make no money or lose money. Only 1% make a dollar even. And we laughed when you said infinity because, infinitely, because you can't keep doing that. 13 levels and you surpassedthe population of the earth. Right, so, so, yeah. Exactly impossible. M.L.M. specifically prey on women. These Tupperware parties, the sex toy parties.

And they're so fun. And we get to hang out with our friends. Wait, I want to make this about me for a second. Please. Why not men? And we get to hang out with our friends. Wait, I want to make this about me for a second. But, um, sorry. Why not men? Why not men? Yeah. But no, there are.

Why not men? I would love to go to a nose trimmer party or a beef jerky. There are, first of all, M-LMs. First of all, M.L.M.S. companies there are like lots of dude MLMs but 75% of people involved are women and it's because the companies go after people who are have some sort of economic precarity or like trouble you know moving up the ranks to here's the thing there's the pay gap we're fighting against if someone called you today and was like you could could make another $1,000 a week,

just sitting in your house and talking to your girlfriends and selling makeup. And now, if that was true, I would be doing that for sure. Yeah, where do I sign? Let me do it. So, you know, we all make less than men. We all take care of the home. We're all all all. We're all. We're all. We're all. We're all. We're all. We're all. We're all. We're all. We're all homemakers. We take care of the children. We have like, we don't have, especially at the age, you know, middle age. We don't have that kind of movement in the economy that other people get.

And that's, and it's not just women because it's now becoming, you know, immigrants or people, you know, anyone who is a population that has hard time getting really good solid employment, which is everybody right now. I also feel like they sucker women in with this promise of, you know, you can achieve independence. Yeah, you can be your own girl boss. And that's alluring. Girl boss, yeah, I'm 46 years old.

When I hear girl boss, I'm just like, yeah, boss babes and fempire. But it's true, my great grandma did Avon and it did help her feel like some agency in her life because she didn't have a career. She got pregnant at like 14 and had a bunch of kids and really didn't have like a job outside of that and it felt good to get on stage or get a pin or get like a fancy jacket and be around people and be lauded. So I do think those things are really valuable. And I think the parties are really fun.

They're actually super fun. I don't know. I did one in my house when I was like 20. It was like a lingerie party. And everyone came out and modeled their boudoir sets. Go on. You toucest that a little bit, but besides just that you can make $1,000 a week, there are some psychological components that they recruit with.

And to me, that's almost more powerful. Tell me a little bit about what they do. So the recruitment is, you know, just things that appeal to all of us. Like, you can have time and money and freedom and you don't have to have any qualifications and the world is yours. And we have a secret, you know, we have a secret that they don't want you to know. So, yeah. So, then they rely on these logical fallacies that we all kind of rely on in our lives and

one of them is honoring sunk costs. It's like when you buy a lemon for a car and you get it worked on and worked on and worked on it worked on, there comes a point where you have to be like, there's a point where you have to be like, the try to get rid of this car. This is me at this time. And how much time does it take for you to lose $1,000? I bet in like small $1. All night.

It's like the whole free. I got a free, I get a free martini, even you just saying that, where I'm like, you can't walk away at 2000. So that's what they rely on, is that they know we're all gonna do that. And there's a bunch more, like the idea that, and it's a truth, that we feel losses much more than gains. We feel them in our bodies, like, as trauma and a gain is like, okay, great, but a loss is like, you know, and so we do everything we can to not realize the loss, to not experience the loss.

So we stick with a plan that's not working for a really long time. Is there, can the government regulate this, help us? I mean, isn't this what the Federal Trade Commission is meant to do? Is there legislation that can be passed to correct this? Things are being worked on, but I will say, just to give the FTC a bit of a break, their purview is so enormous. They are tiny, first of all. They're like the size of the smallest of MLM, in terms of the people that are there and the money they get to use. They're tiny. And their job is, and listen to that like especially after the pandemic and stuff, their job is false product claims, credit card fraud, you know, fishing, spam, every kind of fraud, your grandma getting taken by somebody that she's never met over the phone. And when you put that up against MLMs where the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people th, they are they are they are they are they are they are th. they're they're th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. thi. thi. thi. And, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, they. I'm, they. And, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,that she's never met over the phone. And when you put that up against MLMs, where the people who are signed up are like excited

about it, it's hard to put that first, although this is such a bigger problem than those things in numbers. So they have a tough task, and I don't blame them, you know, they're doing the best they can. So technically MLMs are legal. What can? I believe they are not, but they exist because I use this comparison all the time. Like that's like being like I'm a murderer and because I'm in jail, and then I'm not a murderer because I'm not in jail. That doesn't make any sense. But the ZM should be illegal, but they aren't being treated as such. So what can be done?

You say, if the FDC is not stepping in. No. What can smart American people do to not be lured in? Buy your book. By my book! What can smart American people do to not be lured in? Buy my book. Buy my book. You do need five other people to buy the book also. But for real, what's our defense?

It really is talking about it. You know, that's the only thing we can do because the government doesn't have the capacity and that's understandable because there are so many. I talked to the FTC recently and one of the women I was talking to was like, it's a very target-rich environment right now and I thought she meant, because I was like, this is the perfect environment for these companies to come after you. Like, we are all desperate. We're all wanting to realize the American dream

and believe this is a meritocracy and believe this is a place where you work hard and you get rewarded for it. And all that, whatever. So talk about it and be aware of it. Talk about it, tell your friends, you know. They're fine pitching you some garbage hair product or whatever. You should be fine being like, you know what, this is not cool. And I think the tide's turning. Thank you very much for talking with us.

Selling the Dream is available now, Jane Marie. Explore more shows from the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a comedy central podcast. This election cycle has already been quite a ride. Scared, nauseous, wishing this thing had seatbelts. This election cycle has already been quite a ride. Scared, nauseous, wishing this thing had seatbelts, Pod Save America is here to help. I'm John Lovett and each week me and my co-hosts John Favreau, Tommy Vitor and break down the

political news that makes you laugh, cry, and scream into the void to help you figure out what matters and what each of us can do about it. Pod Save America, the context you need for next week.