The Daily Signal - #407: From Vietnam, an Analysis of the U.S.-North Korea Summit

Episode Date: February 27, 2019

The U.S.-North Korea Summit is under way. We hear from Heritage Foundation's Olivia Enos, who’s on site for the summit in Vietnam. Plus: The Methodists, which are America’s third-largest religious body, just reaffirmed their opposition to same-sex marriage. Mark Tooley, president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy and a Methodist himself, joins us to discuss. We also cover these stories:•President Trump criticized his former lawyer Michael Cohen, who had an explosive congressional hearing Wednesday, saying Cohen was “lying in order to reduce his prison time.” •The Supreme Court heard oral arguments on whether a large cross could remain on government land.•The conservative group Citizens United is offering $50,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of two men who, allegedly, assaulted a conservative recruiter on the U.C. Berkeley campus.The Daily Signal podcast is available on Ricochet, iTunes, SoundCloud, Google Play, or Stitcher. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts. If you like what you hear, please leave a review. You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at [e-mail]. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And I'm Daniel Davis. Well, the U.S. North Korea summit is underway. Today, we have the privilege of hearing from heritage analyst Olivia Enos, who's on site for the summit in Vietnam. We'll talk to her about what to expect from the summit and what changes North Korea needs to make. Plus, the Methodists, which are America's third largest religious body, just reaffirmed their opposition to same-sex marriage.

We'll talk to a long-time Methodist who's been covering. the issue. And before we get to our headlines, just a reminder that if you enjoy this podcast, please mention it to your friends, your families, strangers and grocery store lines. We're chill with any of them. Please subscribe and please leave a five-star review on iTunes. We're here to make sure that busy conservatives can get the news highlights and in-depth interviews they need every day. And we'd love your help in spreading the word. And now on to our top news. Well, the big drama on Capitol Hill this week is Michael Cohen, the president's former attorney testified on Wednesday before the House Oversight Committee, and he pulled no punches in slamming his

former boss. Mr. Trump is a racist. The country has seen Mr. Trump court, white supremists and bigots. You have heard him call poorer countries' sh**les. His private, in private, he is even worse. He once asked me if I can name a country run by a black person that wasn't a shi-hole. This was when Barack Obama was president of the United States. And while we were once driving through a struggling neighborhood in Chicago, he commented that only black people could live that way. And he told me that black people would never vote for him because they were too stupid. And yet, I continued to work for him.

Well, a bit later, he continued. Mr. Trump is a con man. He asked me to pay off an adult film star with whom he had an affair and to lie about it to his wife, which I did. And lying to the First Lady is one of my biggest regrets because she is a kind, good person, and I respect her greatly, and she did not deserve that. And I'm giving the committee today a copy of the $130,000 wire transfer from me. me to Ms. Clifford's attorney during the closing days of the presidential campaign that was demanded by Ms. Clifford to maintain her silence about her affair with Mr. Trump. While Republicans on the committee grilled Cohen and some dismissed him as a non-credible witness,

here's Congressman Mark Green of Tennessee. Ladies and gentlemen, how on earth is this witness credible? With all the lies and deception, the self-serving fraud, it begs the question, what is the majority party doing here? No one can see this guy is credible. He will say whatever he wants to accomplish his own personal goals. He's a fake witness, and his presence here is a travesty. I hope the American people see through this. And meanwhile, the president unloaded on Cohen over Twitter, saying he was, quote, lying. in order to reduce his prison time. Last year, Cohen pleaded guilty to campaign finance violations, tax fraud, and bank fraud,

as well as lying to a Senate committee about efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow. He'll start his three-year prison sentence in May. Will the cross stay or go? A large cross in Bladensburg, Maryland, not very far from Washington, D.C., was built to honor World War I veterans, and now it's up to the Supreme Court, whether it's okay that the cross remain on government land. Based on the oral arguments in the Supreme Court Wednesday, it tentatively looks good for the cross to remain standing. Justice Stephen Breyer, who tends to vote with the liberals on the court, said, per the transcript, quote,

So what about saying past is past if you go back 93 years, but no more? We're now 54 religions. We're now everything under the sun, and people will take offense. End quote. Justice Samuel Alito, who tends to vote with the conservatives, said at one point, There are cross monuments all over the country, many of them quite old. Do you want them all taken down? Well, India and Pakistan find themselves in an escalating conflict in Kashmir, a long-disputed

territory located between the two countries. On Wednesday, fighter jets clashed in the skies over Kashmir, with both sides claiming to have shot down at least one of the other side's planes. Pakistan is also captured an Indian pilot. The clash began when a Pakistani jet fired a missile into Indian-held territory in in Kashmir in order to, as they say, demonstrate their capabilities. Just two weeks before that, a Pakistani militant group had bombed Indian security personnel in Kashmir provoking threats of Indian retaliation.

Pakistani Prime Minister Imran Khan urged caution in a televised address, saying, quote, history tells us that in wars there are miscalculations. Shouldn't we consider that if it escalates from here, where will it go? end quote. Both countries possess nuclear weapons and have had uneasy relations for decades. A political operative in North Carolina has been arrested amid claims of voter fraud. Leslie McCrae, Dallas, was indicted by a grand jury for allegedly taking absentee ballots and turning them in. It's illegal in North Carolina for strangers to be involved in returning mail-in ballots. Dallas worked for a Republican candidate, Mark Harris. There have been concerns about irregularity with the election almost. ever since it occurred. And although Harris had more votes than the Democrat candidate,

the election results weren't certified and a new election has been called. Harris will not be running again. Well, the conservative group Citizens United is offering $50,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of two men who allegedly assaulted a conservative recruiter on the University of California Berkeley campus. Last week, Hayden Williams, a 26-year-old, was hosting a recruitment table on campus for Turning Point USA, a conservative student group, when two men approached him. According to police, one of the men kicked over his table and then punched him, injuring his face. Much of the incident was captured on film by a nearby witness. So, after the Jesse Smollett allegation of a hate crime happened, actress Ellen Page, who is a lesbian,

appeared on Stephen Colbert's show and called out Vice President Mike Pence. He has hurt LGBTQ people so badly as the government of Indiana, and I, I think the thing we need to know, and I hope my show Gaycation did this, in terms of connecting the dots, in terms of what happened the other day to Jesse, I don't know him personally. I sent all of my love. Connect the dots. This is what happens. If you are in a position of power and you hate people and you want to cause suffering to

them, you go through the trouble, you spend your career trying to cause suffering, what do you think is going to happen? kids are going to be abused and they're going to kill themselves and people are going to be beaten on the street. Well, as we now know, Smollett was behind the attack himself. In a new column for the Hollywood reporter, Paige says that Smollett's case shouldn't make people question whether hate crimes against LGBT people exist.

And not only does she not apologize to Pence, Paige doubles down on her argument, writing, quote, When the rhetoric we read and the hate speech we hear comes from our politicians, our media and entertainment, our neighbors and families and our religious leaders. We internalize the pain in damaging, self-defeating ways. We are wary and afraid to report hate violence. We lose hope as we continue to be victimized. Well, up next we hear from Olivia Enos, who is in Vietnam for the U.S. North Korea Summit. Do conversations about the Supreme Court leave you scratching your head? Then subscribe to SCOTUS 101, a podcast breaking down the

cases, personalities, and gossip at the Supreme Court. Joining us today is Olivia Enos, a Heritage Foundation policy analyst who focuses on foreign policy. And she's actually in Vietnam for the summit between President Trump and North Korea's Kim Jong-un. Now, just to be clear, we are recording this during the summit itself because of the time difference. And Olivia, before we get into the summit, I just wanted to ask you, what is the scene like in Vietnam? Are there a million reporters? where is this meeting taking place? What is it like there?

The press pool is really large, and there's a lot of energy in Hanoi. It seems as though the Vietnamese government has essentially recharacterized itself or rebranded itself as this city where peace happens. And so as you walk down the streets, there are all of the flags. So there's the North Korean flag next to the Vietnamese flag next to the American flag, which, to be totally honest, is pretty jarring. And there are a lot of different signs that talk about Vietnam and Hanoi in particular as the peaceful city. And so it seems like Vietnam itself is really trying to set itself up as a place where peace, quote unquote, can take place. And so it seems like the administration is moving towards signing a peace declaration, which is fairly concerning for a number of reasons that I'm happy to go into.

Well, that's particularly interesting, given that 40, 50 years ago, we were locked in a war with Vietnam, you know, a communist power, which we might compare with North Korea today. Is there anything symbolic in that? Is Vietnam trying to send a message to North Korea about what they could? be in the future? There's definitely a deep desire, both on the Vietnamese side as well as the U.S. side, to communicate that Vietnam is a potential future for North Korea. And the president himself has made statements that, you know, North Korea could really experience economic transformation very quickly if it does make concessions on, you know, the nuclear

front and on other areas. So there's definitely been an attempt to draw those parallels much in the same way. way that there was an attempt to draw those parallels in Singapore. And, you know, it's important to bear in mind that both Vietnam and Singapore still bear the signature traits of a pseudo-authoritarianism and the relics of, you know, that authoritarian rule are definitely very present, even in the architecture here in Vietnam, which is really fascinating. So I think it's interesting.

I mean, I think it's hard to make the argument that North Korea, which is so far, behind the rest of the world could really catch up very quickly. But I think it is, of course, good to present those alternatives as a brighter future for the North Korean people. So let's talk about the summit itself. What leading into this, and I know we've already had the first dinner, or the main topics of conversation that we're expected to come up? Yeah.

So, you know, a lot of speculation ahead of the summit, there are about four pillars that people anticipate will be raised. The first, as I mentioned earlier, is this notion of signing a peace declaration. The second is that there would be an opening of potentially liaison offices between the U.S. and North Korea. This would be like one step below an embassy to hopefully facilitate additional dialogue. The third would be the continuation of the return of the remains of American POWs from the Korean War. And then the fourth would be an exchange of dismantling the Yangyan nuclear facility in exchange for inter-Korean economic engagement or some form of relief and sanctions. And I would say that perhaps the most concerning of those four options

are the potential for a peace declaration, which as heritage expert, Bruce Kleiner has written on in great detail, has the potential to really sacrifice the strengths of the South Korean alliance. because even though signing a peace declaration isn't the same as signing a peace treaty, it sort of takes the can down the road where there's the potential for troop withdrawal, U.S. troop withdrawal from South Korea. And frankly, North Korea would love nothing more than to have the U.S. no longer on the Korean Peninsula. But that would really sacrifice a key cornerstone of U.S. strategy in Asia. And then the second concerning aspect is this notion of potential sanctions relief being on the table.

Frankly, the administration cannot legally remove a whole host of sanctions until North Korea actually denuclearizes. And even beyond that, cannot list sanctions unless North Korea makes improvements on human rights grounds. And so I think that the administration is really fighting within itself as to whether or not it's going to maintain that maximum pressure strategy. And frankly, I think that the best outcome for the summit would be a return to requesting that North Korea.

actually have complete verifiable, irreversible dismantlement of its nuclear program, taking steps toward that, and that the U.S. maintain that maximum pressure strategy if and until that happens. Yeah, just on that point of denuclearization, it's my understanding that the two sides don't even agree on what that would mean or what the word denuclearize means. Can you kind of explain that for us? Yeah. In Singapore, the two countries agree to complete denuclearization, which, according to the first,

means denuclearization of the entire Korean Peninsula. And in their mind, that includes the U.S. nuclear assets that are used to protect South Korea in the event of war. That's an entirely untenable definition. The U.S. is not going to be giving up its legitimate nuclear weapons that do comply with international law. And so that definition really isn't even workable. The reality is that the two countries should,

not be going down the path that the administration has talked about, which is this new definition of de-uncularization, final fully verifiable denuclearization, but really should stick to what the UN sanctions require, which is complete, verifiable, irreversible dismantlement, not denuclearization, dismantlement of North Korea's nuclear program. That terminology, that term of art is really important because it identifies North Korea explicitly as the one who has to dismantle their program, and it needs to complete and irreversible as well as verifiable. So to take a step back, it's a little jarring, at least for me to see, you know, these pictures of President Trump and Kim Jong-un smiling and having dinner. But at the same time, you know,

of course, this is diplomacy. But, you know, you're an expert in foreign policy. Why is it still so important? How do relationships between countries change based on these face-dust? to face meetings. Why is this necessary? Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting because both sanctions and diplomacy share similar ends. You know, you engage in sanctions efforts because you want to shift a country's risk calculus in such a way that it actually transforms behavior. Diplomacy, if used well, can have the exact same outcome. But it has to be measured, and in my opinion, it has to correspond with the sanctions policy that you had before.

And I think one of the unfortunate things about the diplomatic efforts so far is that it seems like there's actually a mismatch between what the legal requirements are of the sanctions and the way in which the administration has pursued diplomacy, because diplomacy has been very unilateral, focused only on denuclearization issues, not focused on the host of other issues, human rights issues in particular, but also other issues, including North Korea's designation as a primary money laundering concern, and North Korea's designation as a state-sponsored charism that, frankly, you know, Kate and Daniel, if North Korea doesn't only denuclearizes, they can't list all of the sanctions for these other areas. And so if North Korea

actually seeks to be sanctions free and no longer have that type of pressure on it, then we have to make diplomatic forward movement on these other issues as well. So I think that's really critical going forward. And, you know, I certainly think that there's a place for diplomacy, but we have to be very careful as we consider which concessions we make at what time. Well, President Trump has held out to North Korea the, you know, the potential for them to become an economic powerhouse, and he's spoken very glowingly in those terms.

Is that a realistic possibility in the future? You know, I think a lot of, you know, if you look at a lot of countries around the globe, there have been former despotic regimes that have fundamentally transformed and have a free and open economy. Of course, people love to point to the economic and political transformation of South Korea itself, but conditions were quite different when South Korea opened. I think it's not likely that you're going to see a fundamental economic transformation in North Korea in the near term. But I think that if North Korea was willing to address some of the foreign human rights issues and also, you know, actually make some of those concessions that make it so that they comply with international law, comply with sanctions, maybe they could start on a path toward that. And, you know, maybe Kim Jong-un, he sees he's only 33, I think, years old.

Maybe he's thinking about playing a long game. But I think the early indicators, both from the Singapore summit and here in Hanoi, suggest that, you know, I don't know that he's a major reformer, although some certainly speculate that he is. So you've mentioned South Korea, of course, is going to be watching these talks rather anxiously. What about China and other players in the region, Japan? What do you think they're hoping to see or not see come out of this? And how could this affect them? That's a great question, Kate. You know, I think that China in particular has a very fraught relationship with the events that unfold in the Korean Peninsula.

China is North Korea's only diplomatic ally, but it also doesn't want to see instability within Asia. And, you know, potential humanitarian or refugee crisis threatens the stability of China, which prizes their own, you know, internal stability and sovereignty over pretty much everything else. or foreign policy. So China always plays this, you know, bizarre, good, cop, bad cop role with North Korea. And it will be interesting to see, you know, what that role exactly looks like. I don't think that China really wants North Korea to be a nuclear power over the long term, but I think it's not exactly clear as to whether or not it wants to eliminate North Korea's a threat because, you know, North Korea is a bright, shiny object that, distract from all of the bad behavior that China itself is engaging in. And so I think it's not a

straightforward role that it plays. I think Japan, as a ally of the United States, has a strong interest in seeing North Korea not only denuclearized, but they have personal domestic issues surrounding the myriad of Japanese and ductees who have been held there. And so that is of concern to Japan, and I think they'll continue to support the U.S., but they have a difficult relationship with South Korea that also complicates how they relate to the North Korean crisis. And, of course, there's Russia, too. Russia gets very little, you know, I think it's paid little lip service in the overall debate, and I think it's because we're not exactly sure what role Russia will play over the

long term in the North Korean crisis. So, you know, a lot of interesting regional dynamics going on. Well, lastly, Olivia, human rights abuses in North Korea have been an element of this, you know, from the beginning. But since the Singapore summit, we haven't heard much at all from the Trump administration on that front. You've devoted a lot of your focus to human rights in North Korea. What would you hope to see on that front out of this summit? I would really love to see the administration recognizing that human rights issues and advancing those issues, in fact, benefit the long-term goals and objectives of the U.S. when it comes to denuclearization.

I really believe that these issues are interlinked. In particular, free labor in North Korean political prison camps is free labor for the regime's nuclear and missile program. And in fact, there are reports that individuals have chemical and biological weapons tested on them as prisoners in these camps. And same thing with, unfortunately, mentally, mentally, challenged individuals as well as Kukchewi or street children in North Korea. And so I think that there would be a lot of benefits to raising the human rights concerns at this upcoming summit. And I think there are small tests of North Korea's sincerity that could be implemented, for one

thing. The U.S. could request that the UN, the International Committee of the Red Cross or the World Food Program, be granted access to provide humanitarian aid to the neediest individuals who are in those political parties. prison camps. Or perhaps they could ask, you know, for the release of women, children and the elderly from those political prison camps. They don't serve as any sort of threat to the regime. And I think that the human rights abuses and holding North Korea accountable, it's in the American way to promote freedom as well as promote our own national interests. And I believe in the

North Korean case, we don't have to choose between promoting interest versus values. We can do both. So hopefully that's what we'll see when we conclude our dialogue at this second historic summit here in Hanoi. Well, thanks so much for joining us, Olivia. I appreciate you calling despite the 12-hour time difference. I hope you get a chance to relax some. I saw one of the news reports said there's also like a North Korea United States cocktail being sold in Vietnam. Yes. Maybe you get to enjoy one of those.

Sounds great. All right. Thanks, Olivia. Thank you so much. Are you looking for quick conservative policy solutions to current issues? Sign up for Heritage's weekly newsletter, The Agenda. Each Tuesday in the Agenda, you will learn what issues Heritage Scholars on Capitol Hill are working on, what position conservatives are taking, and links to our in-depth research.

The Agenda also provides information on important events happening here at Heritage that you can watch online as well as media interviews from our experts. Sign up for the agenda on heritage.org today. And now joining us by phone to unpack some of the recent developments in the United Methodist Church is Mark Tully. He is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, and he joins us by phone from St. Louis. Mark, thank you for joining us. My pleasure.

So, Mark, you've been on the ground in St. Louis for the last, I guess, extended weekend, and really posting a lot on your blog about all of the updates coming out of the United Methodist Church. Before we get into some of the specific changes, I'm sorry, the specific reaffirmations and the developments that happened, give us a lay of the land. What led to this conflict over recent decades? Well, the United Methodist Church, which is America's third largest religious body and the largest so-called mainline denomination, has been debating sexuality since 1972. specifically whether to authorize same-sex unions or to allow clergy to be actively homosexual. So the church teaches, like other traditional churches, that clergy are expected to be monogamous

and male-female marriage and celibate if single and churches may not conduct same-sex unions. But there's been a vigorous debate over it for almost 50 years, and if Methodism were a U.S. only denomination, it would have easily followed the other mainline denominations in affirming same-sex marriage some years ago. But because it's a global denomination, and while declining in the U.S., it's growing overseas, especially in Africa, and the Africans are going to become a majority of churches membership probably the next five, seven, eight years. They're already 42, 43 percent. So because of that, this week, the United Methodist Church again rejected a proposal heavily promoted by the U.S. bishops and all of the forces of U.S. institutional Methodism to overturn

our church's standards on sexuality and instead adopted a, what's called a traditional plan that reaffirms the biblical standards on sexuality and enhances enforcement measures for clergy and bishops who have been unwilling to uphold those standards. So, Mark, I'm Catholic, and we have sort of a similar pattern in the Catholic Church, where often African clergy and members tend to be more theologically conservative than their North American counterparts. What do you think is going on in that split in the Methodist Church? I think one thing I always wonder, and this is rampant speculation, is in some ways

if the United States' history of, you know, their problematic racial history in some ways has led to this problem where people aren't able to realize that the LGBT fight is different than that fight, and they bring in this baggage over the civil rights movement and our sins there and thus have this different attitude. Well, that's correct. So American methods like other Americans are very focused on rights and individualism and demanding affirmation for their own choices. The Africans, of course, come from a different culture. They think more communally and are more attuned to tradition and as relatively recent converts to Christianity, first generation, second generation, or third generation, they take the teachings of traditional Christianity very seriously. And they try to carry them out.

They're not just as individuals, but as a group. So when the African delegates come to our general conferences, they're not divided. They're voting close to 100% to reaffirm traditional standards. So, Mark, what exactly happened this past weekend at the gathering in St. Louis? Well, it was a big battle between the liberal proposal and the traditional or conservative proposal, but the conservative proposal prevailed by about 55, 45, so U.S. traditionalists and evangelicals were aligned with the Africans and the Filipinos and some of the Europeans and Russians who were there, and were able to defeat the proposal from the bishops and others to effectively create a new situation in which it's not the denomination setting standards on the definition of marriage,

but would have allowed local churches to establish standards of whether or not they would host or conduct thin-sex marriages. And what are the implications there for the denomination? Do you expect a mass exodus of churches here in the U.S.? There will not be a mass exodus. Had it gone the other way, had the liberal proposal prevailed, then certainly, as in all the other mainland denominations that liberalize, there would have been a schism and a new conservative Methodist church created, plus the Africans and other overseas churches would have broken off. Fortunately, that did not happen.

So the question now is, will there be a liberal schism? Will there be a new liberal Methodist church created for those congregations unhappy with the church's teachings on sexuality, and there's been almost historically no precedent for liberals creating a new denomination. Schisms and new denominations usually come from conservatives upset with the current policy from whatever they're departing. So it'll be quite momentous if liberal Methodists create a new church. And what was the scene like on the ground? Were there individuals having conversations? Do you think even if the broader alliances stood, do you think any individuals changed their mind on these issues?

No, there's no evidence. Anyone changed their mind. Sounds like Twitter. Everybody doubled down. I don't think the debates had any meaningful effect. The general conference, it's supposed to meet every four years, oddly in a presidential election year. However, when it met three years ago,

it was decided there would be a special call general conference devoted specifically to sex and only sex. So it was the same delegates who were there three years ago, and we knew who they were and what the beliefs were, where they were from, and there's no evidence that anybody changed their mind. All right. Well, Mark, we appreciate you calling in and for covering it so extensively. You can find Mark Tully's writings on his blog, Juicy Acuminism.

It's a great place to find articles on culture and religion in America. And Mark Tully is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy. Thanks for joining us. My pleasure. And that's going to do it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to The Daily Signal podcast brought to you from the Robert H. Bruce Radio Studio at the Heritage Foundation. Please be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or SoundCloud, and please leave us a review or a five-star rating on iTunes. We'll see you again tomorrow from CPAC.

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