The Daily Signal - #441: The Burning of Notre Dame

Episode Date: April 16, 2019

The fire at Notre Dame has been put out. The damage is extensive, but there are glimmers of hope even amid the destruction. Today, Monica Burke joins the podcast to share about the time she visited Notre Dame, and what its burning means for France, Christians, and the Western world.We also cover these stories:-Twitter cuts ties with Southern Poverty Law Center amid claims of racial harassment.-President Trump says he has no concerns about the Mueller report's release.-Leaked documents show Mark Zuckerberg leveraged user data to fight rivals and help friends.-House Democrats continue their hunt for Trump's financial documents.The Daily Signal podcast is available on the Ricochet Audio Network. You also can listen on iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher, or your favorite podcast app. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts.If you like what you hear, please leave a review or give us feedback. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Wednesday, April 17th. I'm Kelsey Bowler. And I'm Daniel Davis. The fire at Notre Dame has been put out. The damage is extensive, but there are some clear bright spots even amid the destruction. Today, I'll sit down with Monica Burke, who visited Notre Dame and had a remarkable experience. We'll unpack what the fire means for France, Christians, and the Western world. By the way, if you're enjoying this podcast, please consider leaving a review or a five-stom

rating on iTunes and encouraging others to subscribe. Now onto our top news. The devastating fire that consumed parts of the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris on Monday has sparked a wave of global grief. While the investigation into what caused the fire is only beginning, French officials say it could be related to renovations that 850-year-old building was undergoing. As for the damage, the whole roof and spire were destroyed. The choir and nave are damaged, but the iconic three rose windows and the two bell towers are safe.

As of the recording of this podcast, over 600 million euros have already been pledged to help rebuild the cathedral from billionaires and companies alike. The French president has also announced a fundraising campaign to raise more. Well, Twitter is distancing itself, from the Southern Poverty Law Center after reports surfaced earlier this spring that the group

scams liberal donors out of money while ignoring racial harassment within its own ranks. The group is known for keeping a running list of hate groups, which include racist groups and mainstream conservative groups all in one bundle. That list has been cited as authoritative by mainstream media groups and corporations. But now, according to the Daily Caller News Foundation, Twitter is dropping the group. An anonymous source. within Twitter, told the Daily Caller News Foundation that the SPLC is not a member of Twitter's trust and safety counsel or a partner the company has worked with recently. Just last summer, Twitter had listed SPLC as a safety partner working to combat hateful conduct and harassment.

But other tech giants like Facebook and Google have yet to announce any changes to their relationship with the SPLC. Washington is on edge leading up to the release of the Mueller report this Thursday. but one person who says he's not so concerned, President Donald Trump. During an interview on Monday with Minneapolis TV station KSTP, Trump said, quote, I heard it's going to come out on Thursday. That's good. And there can't be anything there because there was no crime.

There was no anything. Instead, Trump said, crimes were, quote, committed by the other side, unquote, not by him or his campaign. He said this crime was all made up in that it was a fabrication. But while President Trump might not be concerned, NBC reports that some current and former White House officials who cooperated with the special counsel fear that the report will, quote, expose them as the source of damaging information about President Donald Trump, according to multiple witnesses in the investigation, unquote. Whether or not that actually happens will likely depend on the extent of the redact. Well, a treasure trove of leaked documents suggests that Mark Zuckerberg, the CEO of Facebook, leveraged user data against rival companies, essentially using user data as a bargaining chip to get its way with those companies. And all the while, Zuckerberg claimed to be protecting user data.

That's all according to about 4,000 pages of documents from between 2011 and 2015, which have been leaked to NBC News. The documents show that Facebook sold user data to Amazon, among other companies, because it was spending money on Facebook ads. In another case, Facebook cut off access to user data to a messaging app that it viewed as becoming too popular and as a competitor. The company has not been accused of breaking any law, and Facebook denies that it gave preferential treatment to partners based on their ad spending or their relationship to Facebook executives. Politico is reporting that House Democrats are ratcheting up their coordinated investigations into president. Trump's business dealings as the Justice Department prepares to release the redacted version of that Mueller report. This includes new subpoenas to multiple financial institutions in coordination

with the House Financial Services Committee, including to Deutsche Bank, which has lent Trump millions of dollars over the years for his property development. Republicans called the latest round of subpoenas, quote, partisan fishing expeditions, unquote, design. to hurt Trump and the GOP. Congressman Patrick McKenery from North Carolina, the top Republican in the Financial Services Committee, said my colleagues across the aisle continue to politicize the banking industry and set out on partisan fishing expeditions, all while ignoring the issues the American people need our committee to be focused on. Republicans have repeatedly expressed our desire to work in a bipartisan manner, but today's actions seem driven solely by

political agenda. Well, up next, Monica Burke comes on to discuss the burning of Notre Dame. Do conversations about the Supreme Court leave you scratching your head? If you want to understand what's happening at the court, subscribe to SCOTUS 101, a Heritage Foundation podcast, breaking down the cases, personalities, and gossip at the Supreme Court. Those are the voices of young Parisians singing Ave Maria outside the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris. That cathedral is beloved by so many, not just in France, but around the world. Monica Burke has a new article out in The Daily Signal discussing the time she went to Notre Dame and the impact that it had on her. Monica is a research assistant in the DeVos Center for Religion and Civil Society here at Heritage.

Monica, thanks for being back on. Thanks for having me, Daniel. So, Monica, you were in Paris a few years ago. You went to Notre Dame. Tell us why you were there and the impact that it had on you. Yes, so I was studying abroad in Rome, and I can't even remember how many years ago it was now. And one of our first weekend trips that I went on with my roommates was to go to Paris, which at the time I was very nervous about. I didn't really like traveling.

And I also didn't speak French, which was extremely inconvenient. And our first stop had to be naturally Notre Dame. And it, I mean, it was unbelievably beautiful, just in person. It was like, I'd been imagining it for years ever since I was a little girl. And it was unbelievable how huge it was and how gorgeous it was. And so we went and it was cold. It was winter. So we went and we took some pictures and we were like, we'll go in later because I don't think they were even open yet.

And we came back later in the day and we were able to get in for free because we were going for Mass. And we just had, it was an incredibly powerful experience because not only was the church beautiful, but we just had this beautiful service. Mass was said in French, and we were just following along as best we could. And there was this gorgeous French family in front of us with their little kids, and they were teaching them the parts of the mass,

and it was just this beautiful. It felt like a homecoming experience. It was beautiful. I actually wrote like a whole long entry in my travel journal that I read yesterday when I heard the news about Notre Dame just to revisit this incredibly beautiful experience. And I remember as I was leaving, thinking to myself, I have to come back here someday.

And it's really sad to think that if I ever do go back, it won't be the same. But it was an incredibly moving experience, and it's been really neat to see other people reflecting on their visits there and just how one place can produce so many millions of stories. Yeah, and some good news, some good news coming after the fire, that the stained glass, the big stained glass, three of them, I believe, the big ones were preserved. along with a lot of the art, a priceless art and other artifacts. When I first went to a Gothic cathedral, I think it was in England, and I was in middle school.

I didn't really understand the meaning of the architecture. I was just kind of overwhelmed by it. But I explained for us a little bit the rationale behind Gothic architecture and what these buildings are trying to communicate. Yes, so I only know a little bit about architecture. I did take art and architecture when I was in Rome, which was one of the coolest experience to see a lot of the examples firsthand. And Notre Dame's a great example of Gothic architecture. It's all about drawing the eye upwards to God.

So before you had like the Romanesque period and in order to support the weight of these really high churches with their high ceilings, you needed really thick stone and really wide pillars. and there were all these advancements in architecture that allowed you to have these incredible vaulted ceilings and gothic architecture just became all about, like, playing with light and height. And it's really incredibly striking because you, I know I felt this when I walked into Notre Dame,

you just walk in and you, like, wonder where the ceiling is, like, where does it end? Right. And it's all about drawing you. It's like you come into the space, and it's all about, like, moving forwards and moving upwards. It's very cool. It's like in Narnia when they say like further up and further in. That's like what a Gothic church is like. Yeah. Well, and it's got such a long history, right? Notre Dame in France, I mean, it stretches back over 800 years. That's like going back to the pilgrims times two.

Yeah. I mean, that's kind of mind-boggling, I mean, from an American perspective. So, you know, starting in the 13th century, you know, the great philosopher Thomas Aquinas would have known Notre Dame as we know it today. and then up through, you know, to the Enlightenment when it became the sort of temple of reason during the French Revolution, temporarily, obviously. And then Napoleon, I believe, granted it back to the Roman Catholic Church. And since then it's been kind of repaired and restored. It's got such national, really the story of this cathedral is the story of France. And we see that a lot in the reaction to it. a lot of French people feel like their sort of French national soul is wounded, that they're dying. How do you reflect on that?

I mean, you're Catholic, full disclosure, and I'm a Protestant, but I appreciate this cathedral. And you're obviously approaching it from a religious perspective, but so many people also feel that it's their national heritage. How do you approach that? That's a great question. So amongst Catholics we have a saying about France that it's the eldest daughter of the church. And so I think there's something incredibly tragic and incredibly powerful about the French reaction to what in some ways is very much a special tragedy to them. Notre Dame was also the center of the city and really essentially the center of France.

And I know that within Catholic circles just there's this. powerful image of the church being, you know, harmed but not destroyed. And that in many ways, this is an image for modern times where we've seen religious practices and decline, basically across denominations. And now is, this is in some way symbolic that now we have an opportunity to rebuild and that we need to rebuild. So I do think it's, it's very special to the French, but I think it's special to Catholics especially and to people across the world. I know, across the world there, this is like an iconic structure. And so everyone feels the loss of something that we all thought was going to be

permanent and outlasts every one of us. But I think, especially as a Catholic, I think the most inspiring element of the entire story is there was a priest who accompanied the firemen into the church in order to recover the crown of thorns and the blessed sacrament. And I think that story right there gets at the heart of why this church and any church matters to Catholics is because we have faith that God is really present. in the church. And so yes, it was a sad day for history and for architecture and for people around the world. But I think uniquely for people of faith, it was very hard to watch.

Yeah. And relatedly, there was a bit of a Twitter back and forth. Ben Shapiro, you know, along with, you know, everyone on Twitter was mourning that this happened. He said, a pretty provocative thing. He said, quote, if we wish to uphold the beauty and profundity of the Notre Dame Cathedral, that means refamiliarizing ourselves with the philosophy and religious principles that built it. And then Bill Crystal, former editor-in-chief of the Weekly Standard, kind of push back on that, saying that you can basically appreciate the wonder and the splendor of the building without buying into the ideas that produced it. And then another guy named Yoram Hargey.

He's written a book recently called The Virtue of Nationalism. He says, he pushed back on Bill Crystal and said, no, if you don't understand the ideals that find expression in the physical form in the architecture, then what do you know of its profundity? In order to appreciate what it is, you have to know what it is. And I thought that it sort of gets to the heart of a lot of the reactions that we're seeing to this event, which is a lot of people. you know, France is a very secular country, one of the most secular places in the world, actually. And even though it has this Christian Catholic heritage, what's your thought here, Monica? I mean, is it necessary to get back and study those principles? Obviously, I think, you know, the West has kind of lost touch with those principles.

We tried to make war on the ideas that built our civilization. Yeah, as per usual, I think the topic is more complex than Twitter gives it credit for it. Really? Wow. I did not think that. Monica. There's a couple elements going on here. The first is, I think to a certain extent, you can appreciate the beauty of the church, perhaps without understanding the history and the philosophy and the theology behind it. There's a reason why millions of tourists went to France every year to see Notre Dame. But I don't, I respectfully, I don't think that you can fully appreciate it without the benefit of faith, in all honesty. especially when you, so when you walk into, if you were to walk into Notre Dame, the entire church tells a narrative. Like I said, that further up, further in dynamic. And what's amazing is that the sanctuary ultimately was saved of the church. And as a Catholic, I look at that. I'm like, the most important part of the church was saved. Yeah, a lot of people probably saw the image of the

cross in the darkness, kind of glowing. Exactly. And all of all of that design. is intentional and in more than just, you know, an interior design, aesthetically pleasing kind of way, it's ultimately speaking to theological truths. And I think ultimately the story that a church tells begs the question of whether or not God is real. And so yes, well, I think you can look at the rose windows and say that they're pretty and you can look at the church and say that it's lovely. there's something very unique about walking into that space as a believer. And I think it goes beyond just the subjective experience of the believer sentimentally feeling.

Like I had a very sentimental experience when I went there. It was very touchy-feely because it's an incredibly moving place. But it's bigger than that. It's ultimately begging the question of whether God exists, whether there's something beyond ourselves. And I believe that the answer is yes. and I think that that gives a new dynamic to the meaning of Notre Dame and any other church. And so I think Twitter doesn't really lend itself to saying all of that

and however many characters they let us use these days. But that's how I think about it. Well, President Emmanuel Macron has talked about rebuilding Notre Dame, but it remains to be seen whether the beliefs and worldview and religion that produced it will also be revived. So we'll have to wait and see. But Monica, thanks so much for writing the piece. It can be found at The Daily Signal. Thanks for coming on the podcast.

Thanks again for having me. And that's going to do it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to the Daily Signal podcast, brought to you from the Robert H. Bruce Radio Studio at the Heritage Foundation. Please be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or SoundCloud, and please leave us a review or rating on iTunes to give us any feedback. We'll see you again tomorrow. You've been listening to The Daily Signal podcast.

Executive produced by Kate Trinco and Daniel Davis. Sound design by Michael Gooden, Lauren Evans, and Thalia Rampersad. For more information, visit DailySignal.com.