The Daily Signal - #503: Can a Conservative and a Liberal Have a Happy Marriage?

Episode Date: July 13, 2019

Jeanne Safer, author of the new book "I Love You, but I Hate Your Politics," joins the podcast to discuss how we can maintain relationships with friends and family despite political differences.Safer, a psychologist, should know: while liberal herself, she has long been married to National Review senior editor Rick Brookhiser. "Never start any conversation with, 'how could you possibly think...'" Safer explains, "even if you're not shouting. Or 'did you hear the obnoxious tweet or the stupid thing this person said?' These are not conversation starters, they are insults. And your partner, the person you care about, will interpret them that way." We also cover:•The Heritage Foundation’s Nick Loris dispels some environmental myths.•We share letters about last week's episode, "She Survived China’s Forced Labor Camp. Now She’s Urging Americans to Reject Socialism." •We tell the story of how one man created a very simple way for prison inmates to stay connected with their families during incarceration.The Daily Signal Podcast is available on the Ricochet Audio Network. You also can listen on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or your favorite podcast app. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Commissions fees and expenses may apply. Read the funds or ETF's prospectus before investing. Funds and ETFs are not guaranteed. Their values change and past performance may not be repeated. This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, July 15th. I'm Robert Blewey. And I'm Virginia Allen. Today we are talking with Dr. Gene Safer, author of the book, I love you, but I hate your politics. We discuss how we can maintain relationships with friends and family despite political differences. We also will share a commentary from our colleague

Nick Loras, who has some things to say about the environment and climate change from a conservative perspective. We will read your letters to the editor, and Virginia has a good news story about one man who has created a very simple way for prison inmates to stay connected with their families. Before we get to today's show, Rob and I want to tell you about one of our favorite podcasts. That's right, Virginia. We've talked about the Heritage Explains podcast before, but really want to encourage our listeners to subscribe. It is a weekly podcast that explains all of the policy issues that we hear about in the news in a way that's hopefully easy to understand. That's right. Every week, Michelle Cordero and Tim Desher, pick a topic you've been hearing about

in the news and then help explain why it matters with the help of a Heritage Foundation expert. If you want to know what it's really going on in Iran or what the passage of the Equality Act would mean for all Americans, then you should subscribe to Heritage Explains. It answers the tough questions on the topics that are making headlines. They are quick and entertaining In just 10 minutes, you'll be up to speed and in the know. You know, Rob, I really do think that it is one of the best policy podcasts, and it's brought to you from the world's leading think tank. You can find Heritage Explains on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify,

or wherever you get your podcasts. They even put the full episode on YouTube. We hope you enjoy it just as much as the Daily Signal podcast. Now, stay tuned for today's show coming up next. We are joined on the Daily Signal podcast by Dr. Gene. Safer, author of the book, I Love You, But I Hate Your Politics. How to Protect Intimate Relationships in a Poisonous, Partisan World. Dr. Safer, thanks for being with us.

I'm delighted to be with you, but you know, it's really, I love you, but I hate your politics. Well, it should be for a great... We have to realize the intensity of the craziness that has taken over civil society because of this. Well, I think this is a great place to begin. Can you share your own story of overcoming political differences with those... Yes, I can. I feel it's one of the great accomplishments of my life. More of mine than Rick, because I married to Richard Brookheiser,

who's Senior Editor of National Review. And, well, first of all, I think one of the important things is that we met in a singing group in 1977. So we're married 39 years. And the importance of it was a singing group that sings Renaissance music on street corners, and then it became Renaissance religious music on street corners. And then it became Renaissance religious music on street corners, 15th and 16th century music. And I noticed that Rick had just a beautiful voice, and he had these wonderful, sizzling blue eyes.

And so I asked him about, oh, the third time he came to a rehearsal, I'd been in the group already. I said, so what do you do? And he said, I'm a writer. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. That's up my alley. And I said, who do you work for? And he said, William F. Buckley, Jr. on National Review. And he was, I think, at the time, the youngest senior editor of National Review.

And so I thought to myself, hmm, William F. Buckley, all right, but at least he's a writer. Because my exposure to conservatives was, I'm from Cincinnati, Ohio, and I've lived in New York for many years. And I really thought of them as mostly members of the John Birch Society, because that's what Cincinnati was a kind of hotbed of that. So that's where we started. And we married in 1980. And our wedding, I think, was a very interesting situation to see how you start with getting along with the other side. Bill Buckley was there, of course, and Bill Rusher, who – Bill Rusher gave a reading.

he became a personal friend of both of ours. And the man who led me down the aisle was the first person in New York State who was removed from a tenured position by the McCarthyites. So we were wondering who would be obnoxious. Well, guess what? Nobody was. They treated everyone graciously. And one of my good friends made a quip. He said, bedfellows make strange politics.

Well, that is an incredible story. What an eclectic mix, I imagine, at that wedding. Yes. But what I was impressed with was that people were gracious and happy, and they were able to put aside these things. And if these people could do it, you know, we can do it. Absolutely. And I also say in my book that,

If Scalia and Ginsburg could be intimate friends, considering, you know, the differences there, there's really hope for all of us if we think about it. But anyway, that was the beginning. But then, of course, and I'm a psychoanalyst. And I change people's minds for a living. That's what I do. So, of course, I decided I was going to change Rick. I'm laughing now because it's embarrassing to think of.

but and I wasn't over the top. I'm a liberal Democrat but kind of centrist these days. And abortion was my big issue. And so I, for the first year or so, I tried to talk about it. And Rick is, he's a very gracious person and a civil person. And he only rose to the debate once or twice. And it made us both very unhappy and upset. And we talked about it.

We said, you know, we could talk about a lot of things, even a lot of political things, but this one has to go off the agenda. And I think it really took about 10 years for me to totally accept that the man I loved and the man that was the center of my life was not going to agree with me on some fundamental things. And the reason I was able to do that is I realized that the most fundamental things we were in complete agreement about. And that politics was much lower on the list than character and love and loyalty. And we had a lot of experiences in our lives that reinforced this notion.

And the notion that core values are not necessarily our political values. I know that sounds strange because politics is very enormously important to, many of us. But there are things I discovered that are more important. For instance, who shows up when you're ill or when you need something?

You know? That was one of the things we found out. And Dr. Safer, I want to ask you a little bit more in detail about that because you've been married now for 39 years and you and your husband are still happy. I was a child bride. I just turned 72.

Still very young. And Rick is eight years younger. I am. That's great. Well, can you just give us a few practical examples of how you and your husband have protected your relationship despite those political differences in your marriage? Well, I think one of the most important things for us, because Rick is a professional conservative. You know, he just doesn't have conservative ideas. He writes about them. I decided at some point that I would read everything he wrote except his editorials. And we're both not online.

So that makes it a, I mean, we don't do Facebook because Facebook is a killer. You know, people unfriend their great-grandparents and their children. And I've got to have insane stuff now. But we decided that we were not going to discuss that issue particularly. And if we made contributions, which we might do, we would do them separately and we would not discuss it. I don't even think we discussed discussing it. But what was really fascinating, Virginia, is over the years, and this is in the West, I don't, in the book, I interviewed 50 people, but I didn't really talk about Rick and me until the West chapter. And what I talk about there is how over the years things changed that I would be somewhat provocative at first.

I'm not a real provocative person, but I would say things like, oh, you know, this is, I may have to march if this goes on. And the first time Rick said, if you march, I march. That was a non-starter, right? So we decided that was not going to happen. And then over time, when things came out in the news, and I'm talking about this particular issue because this was the real hot button one, I saw things that disturbed me. and I learned not to mention them. And then what was fascinating is about 10 years ago, and I'm not even thinking of which decisions,

Rick said to me, oh, did you see that Ireland changed their vote about this topic? And I hadn't said anything. Of course I noticed it, but I didn't, hadn't said anything. I thought, my goodness, he's raising this issue and he's not saying we should make a difference. He just said it. But then the high point,

and I really mean this is a high point, is that when I finished writing this book, and Rick and I read everything each other writes, and it's wonderful to live with one of the greatest editors in America. Saul Bello is my editor on the book, but Rick is my editor. Anyway, when I said to him, Rick, oh, this is really the hardest part because I have to get rid of, you know, I have to edit, and I have to pair of things down, I get rid of things.

And I said, you know, Mary McCarthy said, You have to kill your babies. You know, it's a famous expression. I think it's many people, it's attributed to many people. And Rick looks at me with his eyes sparkling, and he said, finally, you're pro-life. We both started to laugh. Now, we weren't laughing about the seriousness of the issue. We were laughing about the fact that we could have levity even on this.

And you know what I did? What? I kissed him. Aww. And I'm saying if two people with such passionate differences on a very passionate subject, where I really do believe there are moral reasons you could go either way. I mean, not that I do, but you can. That was a very big point.

And also, meeting the people at National Review, who many have become my friends. and one particular example is very important to me. I had a very dangerous but the only curable kind of leukemia in my 60s. And I was in the hospital for a month, if you can imagine. And I called one of my dearest, my dearest friend actually, who was a liberal Democrat psychoanalyst. And I asked her to come and she never showed up. And I called my next-door neighbor, who was an avid national review reader, a devout Catholic. We agree about zero politically.

And she came and she said, let me do your laundry because you need that done. So she took, it makes me cry even now. She took all my wandering. She said, which kind of detergent would you like? She did it all. And she came back, gave it to me. Wow. Forget it.

Yeah, it's so powerful. Thank you for sharing that member. You know, the sense that core values, we have a crazy notion. The core values are who we vote for. Core values are what our character is. I'll give you another interesting example. This is from the book. This young woman taught me a great deal about core values. She's the daughter of a man who I was very close to. He was one of my teachers. and they were real progressive. Upstate New York progressives like you never saw. He had five brothers and sisters, and she was very identified with all of them.

She had very seriously left wing much more than I ever did ideas, and she canvassed for people and did all this. And then her father died. Guess who was the only person who showed up to help her? her uncle, who was the one renegade who had become an evangelical Christian and moved to the south. And he left his wife and his five children to help his niece. And she did something that is extremely rare. She apologized to him about how obnoxious she had been on Facebook to him.

Wow. And embraced him and said, you are my true uncle. And she said, and I learned a lot from that. That just because people agree with you and you can have a lot in common with them, who shows up is what counts. Isn't that incredible? It is. It is. And the thing about the book is you have met and talked with so many people about how they've overcome those political differences in their relationships.

But at the same time, you referenced this earlier. You talk about why there's a danger in trying to think you can change somebody's. politics. Why is that so dangerous to pursue as perhaps a tactic if you're in a relationship? Well, because it's hopeless. I feel very strongly about this, that you are not going to change somebody's ingrained, entrenched ideas about things. I mean, as with Rick and me. You know, you can, if they can have a conversion experience of any kind, but it's not because you stick an article in their face at the breakfast table. or yell at them or say, how can you possibly do this or that?

On either side, people do this, by the way. So those are the kinds of things that you simply cannot do. And the reason you can't do them is that underneath it, we have to accept that other people that we love are not the same as us. And you can't change them any more than you can make somebody love you who doesn't. And I'm not talking about people who do love you now, but they have different political opinion, that it just doesn't work.

And once you give it up, then you can have a dialogue because then you can ask the question, tell me why you think this without saying, how could you think this? Can you hear the difference? And actually, one of the things that was most gratifying in doing all these interviews is I really helped a number of people figure out how to stop doing the things that were destroying their marriages,

their intimate friendships, family relationships, by stopping doing stuff like that and understanding that they were not going to change anybody's mind. And they didn't have to. You could have a dialogue with somebody when they feel differently than you. And one of the interesting things also about Rick and me is that I think both of us have become more articulate and more understanding of our own positions

through talking to an intelligent, thoughtful, moral person who has a different point of view. Sure, sure. It's essential for becoming a real adult. It definitely is. And I want to talk a little bit more about that because, you know, we've all been in conversations

where politics comes up and instantly you just feel the room become tense. And you have a list in the book called the political doctors 10 proven ways to stop a political fight before it starts. What are some of those ways to prevent these arguments? Yeah, I would love to. I cut it down to the Eight Commandments recently because I thought 10 might be too hard for people when they're in that state.

Okay, here they are. Now, take notes. Number one, and this is from my interviews and what people told me and what I saw them learned to do. Number one, do not raise your voice. the person that you're talking to will interpret that as shouting. And that's the end of rational discussion. Yeah.

Number two, now you think this was obvious. Don't mix politics and alcohol. It's a deadly combination. It's hard enough to be rational when you're talking about politics, when you're sober. When you're not, people I talk to who are otherwise gracious, smart people, broke things, screamed, one couple had a fist fight, don't do it. Don't do it. And one of my favorite, I made up a term that you were welcome to steal.

No article thrusting. You know what article thrusting is? I can take a guess, right? You have an article. And you either literally or figuratively stick it in the face of your opponent and say, read that. It's usually in that tone. One of my neighbors, actually,

who's otherwise a terrific woman, did this with her husband at the breakfast table every day. And he never reacted to it. You know, he just stonewalled. She kept doing it. This is a good way to ruin a relationship. Now, another way, another thing that I suggest is there's sometimes things like with Rick and me

that you have to avoid. if you realize there's some things, places you can't go, if you can't talk about it, don't talk about it. There's plenty of people on your side, whichever side you're on, who will be happy to talk to you. Another thing, never started any conversation with, how could you possibly think, even if you're not shouting? Or did you hear the obnoxious tweet or the stupid thing this person said, these aren't conversation starters, their insults? and your partner, the person you care about, will interpret them that way. Why put somebody on the defenses? Avoid social media like the plague.

I cannot tell you how many people, siblings, I know several siblings who unfriended each other over the Kavanaugh hearings. Parents unfriended their children. It was unbelievable. Don't do this. If you know that a person writes, if people write online much more uncontrollably than they speak in person. They're not so controlled when they speak, but when they're online, oh my God. Don't read it.

Don't read things you know are going to incense you. And by all means, never unfriend somebody that you love. Just don't do it. It's not so easy to redo. Only one person I interviewed was able to refriend someone. If you need to have a conversation, go analog, pick up the phone. You know, nobody has landlines with me, but pick up the phone, write a letter, meet in person, don't do it online. Yeah.

And here's one that I think will be important to your listeners. I believe it is people's moral obligation to defend their partner in public, from people saying, people from your side saying obnoxious things to them. Absolutely. Wow. This is something that is absolutely essential. And I learned this with Rick. And even when I was upset with some of his opinions, it never would have stopped me from doing this.

But we were at a brunch for colleagues of mine, including a number that I didn't know. And one guy walked up to Rick and said, well how does it feel to be a crypto-Nazi you know which was something that people used to call bill buckley or a gore of a dog and rick being a gracious person laughed it off i didn't laugh it off yeah i said this is a serious thing to say it is not true it is deeply offensive not only to him but to me and i want you to apologize i'm so glad i did that yeah these are things promiscuous talk of this kind is a disaster in the world. And then my most important point was what we've already talked about, and that is that you really do have to accept that you're not going to change a person's mind about politics. When you really accept that and stop doing it, you can have a real conversation with the person

you love, and you can listen. And you might learn something that, for instance, the other. side is not all demonic. Whichever side you're on. And because I found, by the way, that people on the right and the left did the same terrible things. All the article thrusting, screaming, drinking, it was equal. Absolutely. Those are my commandments. Those are such a great list. I so appreciate that list. Well, you know, the thing is that you can only do these things once you really want to change it. Because what I'm really, what the corral area of this is, if you can't change the other person, guess who's left? You. And if you change how you speak and how you think and how you conduct yourself in a conversation, it'll change the tone.

And by the way, you were saying before about what do you do when a horrible political discussion is about to happen at the dinner table kind of thing? Here is a recommendation. I wish I had done this the one time when I was at one of these swarries to say, even if you're not the host, excuse me, can we please not have a horrible political discussion now and instead have a lovely dinner? Yeah. Just say it outright.

Call a spade a spade. You don't have to put up with that. Everybody hates it. Yeah. You know, it's wonderful to have friends across the aisle. It expands your notion of the world. It does. And I'm sorry that more people don't have it.

Because it makes us demonize the other side. And there are people that I can't stand on my side and people I adore on the other side and vice versa. Character is not the same as political opinions. I know it's a controversial idea, but we passed what Rick and I called the chemotherapy test, which is when you're in the bed getting chemotherapy, you don't ask the political registration. and the party registration of the person standing by you, getting you through it. If you do that, you're stupid.

Yeah. Well, and speaking of your wonderful husband, Rick, you know, he was on our Daily Signal podcast last year, and he spoke about his book on John Marshall, and so we're so grateful that you could now join us. Oh, it's wonderful, and he has another coming out on the Liberty documents in American history that actually I have to say was my idea.

Because I said, Rick, you love these documents, write a book about it. So, you know, that's what people across the aisle can see. They could see different angles of what you can do, you know. Oh, that's wonderful. Well, we will be looking out for his book. And for anyone that wants to follow your work or buy your book, how do they do that? Well, they can go to my website, which is JeannieS-E-A-N-N-N-E, S-A-F-E-E-F-E-R-H-E-H-D-H-D-D.com. And you can hear my podcast, in which the last episode, Rick and I, I interviewed Rick, and then we sang a magical.

Oh, that's so nice. So it's on the podcast. And there's my audiobook, but you could buy on there, and lots of TV appearances and interviews. And it's really, I'm really very touched at how much this is, people are responding to this on those sides. I really, I'm thrilled. I hope it can make a difference. I hope so too. It's so encouraging.

Dr. Safer, thank you so much for joining us today. You're so welcome. Do conversations about the Supreme Court leave you scratching your head? If you want to understand what's happening at the court, subscribe to Skotis 101, a Heritage Foundation podcast, breaking down the cases, personalities, and gossip at the Supreme Court. The Heritage Foundation's Nick Loras had the opportunity to attend a meeting with President Trump last week on the environment. Nick recorded a commentary about the environment and climate change and helps explain how America can ensure affordable, reliable, and cleaner energy by keeping our

economy growing and having a safe and clean environment. Here's Nick. In the 1970s, Americans were told we were in a global cooling crisis, and if something weren't done, we'd enter a new ice age. When that didn't happen, a few decades later, we were told that entire nations could be wiped off the face of this Earth by rising sea levels if the global warming trend was not reversed by the year 2000. Despite the consistent failure of these apocalyptic warnings,

that hasn't stopped climate change alarmism. We're now being told, we only have 12 years to combat climate change, and the solution is to fundamentally dismantle the system of free enterprise. That means Washington control, things like how we produce energy, what food we eat, and what type of cars we drive.

The question is, even if we believed their alarmist, catastrophic predictions, would their proposals even work? Not according to climate scientists' own models. Based on those models, even if the United States cut its carbon dioxide emissions to zero, it would only avert global warming by a few tenths of a degree Celsius in 80 years.

We would see no noticeable difference in the climate, yet it would come at enormous cost to the American people. Climate change is happening, and human activity undoubtedly plays a role, but big government climate policies are all economic pain, no environmental gain. After all, the purpose of climate change regulations is to drive energy prices higher, so families and businesses use less energy. Abundant energy sources such as coal, oil, and natural gas have allowed Americans to affordably drive to their jobs, light and heat their homes, and power their refrigerators, computers, and iPhones.

On the other hand, more heavy-handed climate regulations would drive up electricity bills and prices at the pump. Families would be hurt multiple times over, paying not just more for energy, but also more for food, clothing, and health care, as energy is critical for every stage of planting, harvesting, manufacturing, and transporting goods to consumers. These rising costs would stifle economic growth, one of the most important factors for maintaining a cleaner environment. As a country's economy grows, the financial ability of its citizens to take care of the environment

grows too. So creating more economy-killing climate regulations and taxes would not only harm the the livelihoods of the American people, they would also harm our ability to protect our environment. Instead, government should focus on keeping the economy strong by reducing taxes and eliminating regulatory barriers to energy innovation. For example, some states produce clean, cheap natural gas, but excessive regulations and litigation prevent the construction of pipelines to distribute natural gas to other

parts of the country. Furthermore, competitive electricity markets can give consumers the options the options to option to buy 100% renewable power if they like. And fixing a broken regulatory system will allow new, innovative commercial nuclear technologies to get off the ground. This is how we can ensure affordable, reliable, and cleaner energy. It's how we can keep our economy growing. And ultimately, it's how we can ensure a cleaner environment for America. Tired of high taxes, fewer health care choices, and bigger government, become a part of the heritage. Foundation. We're fighting the rising tide of homegrown socialism while developing conservative

solutions that make families more free and more prosperous. Find out more at heritage.org. Thank you for sending us your letters to the editor. Each Monday we feature our favorites on this show and in the Morning Bell email newsletter. Virginia, who do you have first? In response to the Daily Signals podcast episode, she survived China's fourth labor camp. Now she's urging Americans to reject socialism. Rob writes, American citizens who think they want more socialism need to listen to those who have actually lived under socialist regimes, who were not a part of the elite ruling class. Socialism is a pyramid scam that cannot work as claimed. And Davis writes, it is up to the American voter to decide which type of government they want. You have a choice of either a

thriving market-driven economy where the individual is important, along with his freedoms and religious liberties, or a socialist collective where no one owns anything and the collective is more important than the individual. Your letter could be featured on next week's show. Send an email to Letters at DailySignal.com or leave a voicemail message at 202-608-6205. Virginia, we're back with our good news story of the week. We always look forward to this moment. What do you have to share with us today? Thanks, Rob.

Marcus Bullock was arrested in 1996 when he was 15 years old after stealing a car at gunpoint with a friend. He spent the next eight years of his life behind bars with his only connection to the outside world coming from his mother's daily letters and occasional visits. Upon his release, Marcus realized, that his mom's letters not only kept his hope alive, but also allowed him to reenter family life with a greater ease.

So he determined to create an easy and modern way for family members of prisoners to write and send letters to their incarcerated loved ones. Marcus created the mobile app, Flick Shop. You see, there are over 2.2 million people in prisons all over the country. And unfortunately, they don't, they aren't privy to this kind of technology.

They don't have these devices in their pockets waiting for these small buzzes to say, I love you. We created a mobile application that allows users to be able to take a picture, add some quick text, press send, we print that on a real tangible postcard and mail it in the snail mail,

and we're proud to say we've connected over hundreds of thousands of families. Now loved ones of prisoners can snap a photo, type a quick message, and Flick Shop will handle all the printing and mailing. But Marcus went one step further to address the need for job skills and training of prisoners, providing them with the opportunity to be successful members of society upon their release. The business is an entrepreneurial-driven platform that allows us to go back into the same prison's I was housed and teach men and women the concepts of entrepreneurship.

Now, the 95% of them that are going to be released one day and coming back to your neighborhood, some of them will be well prepared and they won't reaffin because of our project and our program. Marcus has gained national attention for his work with Flick Shop and Flick Shop School of Business. He was even invited to the White House to speak with President Donald Trump about criminal justice reform. And, you know, I just find it so awesome to see a young man who he saw a problem and he acted to bring about a solution and ultimately to change the lives of thousands of people. Virginia, thank you for sharing that story. Thank you, Rob. We're going to leave it there for today.

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