The Daily Signal - #515: What Putin Really Wants

Episode Date: July 31, 2019

Military aggression is no surprise coming from Russia—it’s what Russia’s been doing for generations. But Americans might be surprised to learn the motivations behind that aggression. What’s going through Putin’s mind when he invades Crimea and wages war in eastern Ukraine? Today, we address those questions and more with Nolan Peterson. He’s the Daily Signal’s foreign correspondent who lives in Ukraine and has been covering Russia’s aggression in that country for several years.We also cover the following stories:-Trump continues to rail on Baltimore as "corrupt."-Contrary to popular belief, the U.S. women's soccer team actually earned more than the men's team.-America's approval of tech companies has plummeted.The Daily Signal podcast is available on Ricochet, iTunes, SoundCloud, Google Play, and Stitcher. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts. If you like what you hear, please leave a review. You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at [e-mail]. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Wednesday, July 31st. I'm Rachel Del Judas. And I'm Daniel Davis. Military aggression is no surprise coming from Russia. It's what Russia has been doing for generations. But Americans might be surprised to learn the motivations behind that aggression. What's going through Putin's mind when he invades Crimea and wages war in eastern Ukraine? Well, today we'll get into those questions and much more as I interview Nolan Peterson. He's the Daily Signal's foreign correspondent who lives in Ukraine and has been covering Russia. as aggression in that country for several years. By the way, if you're enjoying this podcast, please consider leaving a review or a five-star rating on iTunes and encourage others to subscribe.

Now on to our top news. President Donald Trump hasn't let up on his critique of Baltimore's leaders after calling out the legs of Reverend Al Sharpton and others, pushing back on the notion that he is racist. In recent days, the president said Baltimore is, quote, corrupt, end quote, and that those who reside in the city are, quote, living in hell, end quote. Here's what Trump had to say on Tuesday. Baltimore is an example of what corrupt government leads to. Billions of dollars have been given, and I feel so sorry for the people of Baltimore,

and if they ask me, we will get involved. But we're already involved from the standpoint that over many years, billions and billions of dollars have been given to Baltimore. It's been misspent. It's been missing. It's been stolen with a lot of corrupt government. Well, President Trump made those comments right before heading to Jamestown, Virginia, to honor the 400th anniversary of the colonial settlement there.

Jamestown was the first permanent English settlement in the Americas, and on July 30th, 1619, it held its first legislative assembly. Here's part of the president's remarks. Four centuries ago, one early voyager to James, captured the spirit of confidence and daring that has always powered our great experiment in self-government. He wrote, we hope to plant a nation where none before hath stood. That was something. In that hope, the men and women of Jamestown achieved success beyond anything they could possibly have imagined. They started the nation that settled the wilderness,

won our independence, tamed the Wild West, ended slavery, secured civil rights, invented the airplane, vanquished the Nazis, brought communism to its knees, and placed our great American flag on the face of the moon. Two Walmart employees died Tuesday morning after a shooting outside of Walmart in South Haven, Mississippi. According to the commercial appeal, which cites the local police chief, quote, the suspect a former Walmart employee was shot twice by an officer outside the building and is in surgery. One officer was shot but did not sustain injuries due to his bulletproof vest. Darren Musselwhite, the mayor of South Haven, said the incident was likely due to an interpersonal issue.

Muscle White said, quote, this is someone who had a personal grievance with his employer. That's sad enough, but it's not something that the city should be alarmed about as far as being on top of event, end quote. Well, with trade negotiations set to ramp back up with China this week, President Trump isn't holding his breath for a deal. President tweeted on Tuesday, quote, China is doing very badly, worst year in 27, was supposed to start buying our agricultural product now, no signs that they are doing so. That is the problem with China.

They just don't come through, end quote. U.S. officials are in Shanghai this week for trade talks. The Chinese economy is taking a hit from tariffs. imposed by the president on billions of dollars of Chinese goods, and China has imposed retaliatory tariffs on U.S. products, but the U.S. economy overall remains in stronger shape. Contrary to popular opinion, some women in sports actually make more than men. According to a Monday letter from the president of the U.S. Soccer Federation, the organization has paid the women's national team more than the men's national team in the not-so-distant past. Specifically,

women's soccer players brought in 34.1 million in salaries and game bonuses during 2010-2018. During that same period, men made 26.4 million. The revelation comes as prominent members of the women's team have publicly complained about alleged paid disparities between male and female players. Well, Americans' approval of tech companies has plummeted in recent years. A new study from Pew Research finds that in the last four years, approval of tech companies dropped from 71% down to 50%. During that same period, negative views toward tech companies nearly doubled from 17% up to 33%. The report shows Democrats with a more favorable view of tech companies than Republicans, with 54% of Democrats saying the tech companies play a positive role in society, while only 44%

of Republicans agreed. All of this comes against the backdrop of the 2016 election and ongoing concerns about tech bias against President Trump and conservative views. Well, up next, I'll talk to Nolan Peterson about what he's learned firsthand about Russia, living in Ukraine. If you're tired of high taxes, fewer health care choices, and bigger and bigger government, it's time to partner with the most impactful conservative organization in America. We're the Heritage Foundation, and we're committed to solving the issues America faces. Together, we'll fight back against the rising tide of homegrown socialism, and we'll fight

four conservative solutions that are making families more free and more prosperous. But we can't do it without you. Please join us at heritage.org. Well, I'm joined now by Nolan Peterson. He is the Daily Signals Foreign Correspondent. If you've read some long-form daily signal stories from either Europe or the Middle East or some other exotic place in the world, usually with lots of pictures. with his name on them. You've probably read a piece by Nolan. So thanks for joining us in the studio, Nolan.

That's great to be back. So you're here in the U.S., just as the Russia-Trump investigation is coming to a climax or maybe a low-max, we might call it, given the flat and disappointing Mueller hearing from the Democrats' perspective. You know, for two and a half years now, we've heard Russia, Russia, Russia, collusion, collusion. You've actually been in Eastern Europe, and you've seen a lot more of Russia and Russians than most Americans or U.S. politicians ever have or ever will. How do you think they are thinking about what's unfolding here in America regarding the Russia investigation? Well, I think that, you know, one thing we should understand about the Russian government is that they fundamentally see their country in a conflict with ours. And because of that, one of their overarching

objectives is to both destabilize our country from within and sort of discredit the American brand around the world. They really want to diminish America's standing and presence internationally. And so I think when they look at the political chaos going on around the Trump collusion story, I think they just sit back and smile and say that for a few hundred thousand dollars in investments in Facebook, they've created this firestorm of controversy. and that's exactly what they wanted to achieve. I'd say that they had less of an intent to actually influence the election

than they did to just destabilize our country and to create chaos and to undermine America's the faith of Americans in their own country as well as the faith in people around the world, the American democracy is the benchmark for the sort of lives they want to aspire to. Yeah, on that count, they've certainly been successful for sure. When you think of the Russian media as well, I mean, you're exposed to a lot of Russian media. How are they portraying all of this? I think they see it as somewhat of a comedy act.

I think initially the Russian media was quite receptive to the notion of a Trump presidency, mainly because Hillary Clinton was not very widely liked in Russia. But now they look at it. at this political chaos in our country as they think it's funny that America has stooped to these low levels. And I think it reinforces a lot of political narratives that have been long running in Russia, which is that America's democracy is inherently unfair, unjust, and unstable. So I want to get at that.

You talked about how they think of the United States, our system, unjust, unstable. Why? I mean, we clearly have the other opinion on – we see ourselves as a beacon of freedom and liberty and justice. And Russia, you know, during the Cold War was the evil empire. And now Putin is asserting his aggression and trying to cobble back together that empire. Why do they see their system as morally superior and better? I don't know if they rationally do. I think that most Russians who travel abroad would agree that life in America is –

overwhelmingly better than life in Russia. But I think that when you look at it from sort of the higher level of the Russian authorities, the leadership, I think they need to make the case to the Russian people that the American model of democracy is not better because they don't want the Russians wanting democracy like the Ukrainians did. I think, you know, pivoting to Ukraine with that notion, I think that the Russian leadership has to show that if you choose democratic future, a pro-European, a pro-NATO future, then you're destined for war and chaos. And so I think when the Russians look to our country, they want to prove to the Russian people that the American dream is not worth aspiring to. And moreover, I think that the Russian leadership is also, they are, they see themselves in a long war.

America. And I don't think they're not trying to supplant us as, you know, the world's superpower by any stretch. But I think they are trying to sort of reassert their power in their region of the world. And I think because of that, they need to make the case to post-Soviet countries that America is, that trying to emulate America is not their best path forward. And so I certainly, I think that as Americans, I think it sometimes get lost in the shuffle of all the political debates, the fact that the world is always watching us. Yeah, I think the world is not France, Germany, United Kingdom. And there's a lot of countries in the world, which are, you know, they're kind of hovering on that tipping point, that threshold of whether or not they're fully going to commit to a democratic future or not. And for those countries, we really have to prove to them through our example that democracy truly is the best way to be. forward. And so, as an American who's lived abroad now for five years, sometimes it's a bit

embarrassing when these stories of political chaos percolate out of America and seem to dominate the news cycles, you know, America does a lot of great things, and I think that should be the dominant headline and the dominant storyline about our country and not this constant political bickering. And in fact, I think we're sort of self-sabotaging our Democratic reputation around the world. How do Russians think about President Trump? I mean, if there was any candidate in the 2016 race that was at least depicted in the media as being pro-Russia, it was him.

And his rhetoric has been more friendly to Russia than past administrations. How do they feel, do they see him as more friendly to Russia than past presidents, or is that changed? I think initially they had high expectations that Trump would be a much more pro-Russian president. I think that a lot of his rhetoric has certainly sort of extended an olive branch to Russia. But when you look at his policies, he's actually drawn a pretty hard line against Russia, particularly in Ukraine. The Trump administration approved the deliveries of lethal weapons systems to Ukraine, the javelin missiles as well as sniper systems.

And America's presence in Eastern Europe has steadily increased under Trump's white. watch. So I think from a policy perspective, Trump has actually not been seen as a very positive force for Russia because he has dug in America's heels in Eastern Europe and saying that, you know, Russia's aggression in that region won't be tolerated and that if countries want to choose a democratic future, they have every right to do so as sovereign nations. I think that, you know, as the years have gone by, whatever, you know, high expectations, expectations or glee that Russians might have had for the Trump presidency has been supplanted by a disappointment. And I think now they try to belittle Trump.

They tried to undermine his image, at least in the media, portraying him as like a comic figure. They make fun of him portraying him as, you know, like he doesn't, you know, they tried to make, just basically make fun of his personality in the media to belittle his stature among the Russian people. Well, it's been several years now, I guess five years now since Russia invaded Crimea or annexed Crimea. Correct. How are the Ukrainians feeling now about the Trump administration and their alliance with the U.S. in light of the aggression that they've constantly felt from Russia? Yeah, I think, you know, to start off answering that question, I think it's important to remember that there is an ongoing trench war in Ukraine. that Russia invaded Ukraine.

They sent in troops, tanks, artillery. It's a land war. It's a limited land war. It's basically quarantined to an entrenched front line about 250 miles long in Ukraine's eastern Dombas region. The war has killed about 13,000 Ukrainians so far. And every day, there's by ones and twos, more soldiers are dying and civilians too,

which is, I mean, I think we would all agree. It's pretty bizarre to contemplate the fact that there's a trench war going on in Ukraine that is getting hardly any media attention whatsoever. I think when Trump was first elected, a lot of Ukrainians were a bit concerned about some of the rhetoric that was perceived to be pro-Russian. But as I said, Trump's policies have actually been much more supportive to Ukraine than Obama's were. And so I think that, you know, particularly when you talk about the delivery of lethal weapons to Ukraine, I have to say that Ukrainians feel more at ease and more comfortable with the notion of American support than they did under Obama. They were deeply, deeply disappointed by the fact that Obama never followed through and delivering lethal weapons to Ukraine. Ukraine is one of the world's top weapons exporting nations, so they don't necessarily need the weapons. But it definitely sends a loud and clear message to Moscow that we have Ukraine's back if we're willing to deliver weapons to them.

So I think that right now in Ukraine, there is a sense that, you know, they can maybe look past some of the rhetoric that might be worrisome. And they look at the policies, it's certainly clear that America is on Ukraine's side and we're there to stay. Have those weapons been helping the Ukrainian army? And where does, you know, what's the outlook at this point for the war? Well, actually, those weapons are under lock and key. They're not allowed to be near the front lines. Without a doubt, they are a symbolic gesture. They're not actually being used in the war whatsoever.

If there was a large-scale tank invasion, I think the weapons, they would be lethal, but they wouldn't be enough to turn the tide of a war with Russia and Ukraine's in Ukraine's favor. But America has done a lot more than just a javelin's, though. I mean, we've delivered decommissioned Coast Guard cutters to help bolster Ukraine's naval power in the Sea of Azov, where there's been a lot of tension in the last year or so between Russia and Ukraine. We're helping to train their military. We had a very large-scale combat air power exercise in Ukraine recently, which is the largest since the Cold War, which is organized by the United States. So America has a very prominent role in developing Ukraine's military and also their economy, which I think is one of the most important aspects of all this, is that if the Ukrainians are successful,

if, you know, after having overthrown a pro-Russian president in 2014 and making clear that they want their country's future in Europe, and they want a pro-democratic future, they want to be part of NATO one day, if Ukraine is able to turn itself around and have a prosperous, bright future, that sends a really clear message to Russians. If they want to lift themselves up by the bootstraps, if they want a better future, if they want to enjoy the perks of democracy like the Ukrainians now have, then they should think about perhaps changing the arc of their political future. Well, Ukraine recently elected a new president, a comedian, Volodymyr Zelensky, I think that's how you pronounce his name. It kind of makes me think of John Stewart running for president, a comedian getting elected. And is he taken seriously by Putin or does he know what he's doing as president?

Well, I think, you know, Zelensky had zero political experience, so I'm sure that the, this is just my extrapolation. But I would think that within the Kremlin, they thought that they had a political neophyte on their hands who could be manipulated. But I have to say that the image that Zelensky projects is a damaging one to Putin. And when you look at Zelensky – you know, on the day of his inauguration, he was out walking through crowds of Ukrainians, clapping hands like he was running onto a – like an NFL player running onto a football field. And he's very dynamic and he's exciting. He knows how to use social media. He knows how to use his image on TV spots. And so he's really engaging, particularly among young Ukrainians.

And when you compare that image with Putin's sort of famous gunslinger walk and his very reserved sort of demeanor. And I think he just shirtless riding of horses. Exactly. It's kind of this antiquated, like, tough Soviet man image that doesn't really play well in the millennial generation in Russia or, you know, of course in Ukraine, there's been a conflict. But I think, you know, young people in Russia, when they look at Zelensky, I imagine that there is a bit of a notion that they want that kind of optimistic dynamism in their country too. And so I think in a way, although I'm sure Putin is not particularly intimidated by Zelensky's resume of political accomplishments, I think he might, this is all, of course, just my opinion and speculation, but I think there may be some concern that this image of a, this positive image, this uplifting image that Zelensky is portraying, could spark some sort of yearning among young Russians for something similar in their own country.

Well, a lot of young Russians never knew the Soviet Union. I mean, I never knew it. I assume you never knew it. It really collapsed when you were either really little or... Yeah. I mean, we're kind of past that now. So Putin does evoke a bygone era. Are the young people still buying into that at all, or are they just past it?

Now, for what I've anecdotally observed through social media, I'd have to say that that. that most or many young Russians are, you know, at the very least, deeply skeptical of the propaganda sort of, you know, inundation they've been subjected to, particularly since 2014 when the war in Ukraine began. I think a lot of young Russians are, they're very technologically savvy. They're all on the internet. They're on social media. Many of them have traveled at some point in their lives. And so they understand that, you know, America is not this cesspool of humanity that it's been portrayed as in Russian media. They, you know, an over, you know, a majority of Ukrainians have family in Russia. And so those Russians who have family in Ukraine, vice versa,

you know, through their communications, they have to know that Ukraine is not being controlled by a CIA installed neo-Nazi government, as Russian media suggests. So young Ukrainians are in touch with, or excuse me, young Russians are in touch with reality, and I think they are skeptical of the propaganda they receive. However, I think they are also deeply fearful of speaking out, because there is a pretty, pretty tight security crackdown in Russia, particularly against speaking out, against the Kremlin online. So many people, I think, at this point, are probably too afraid to voice their skepticism about the government or the propaganda that they receive.

Well, the image of Putin that we have is a very strong, aggressive image. But do you think that's overstated? Do you think he feels more back-tuned into a corner culturally than we might think? you know, there's that old saying, right, that Russia plays chess while we play checkers. And I think that, you know, Russia does look farther down the road than some of our strategists may. But I also think that much of what Russia has done recently is from a position of weakness. Particularly, I think, that the powers that be in Russia want to stay in power and that when things like Ukraine's 2014 revolution occur, they understand that, you know, that brush-fire revolution could very easily blow over into Russia.

And so I think that, in my opinion, Russia's military aggression, Ukraine, had a lot to do with proving to Russians that a pro-democratic revolution will result in nothing but war violence and economic misery. But, you know, Russia is facing a pretty bleak future right now, particularly demographically. The average Russian male barely makes it into his 60s. Alcoholism is killing them at a pretty prolific and expeditious rate. So I think that Russia, looking forward, knows that if it wants to survive as a globally significant country, it has to do something about its demographic crisis. And so perhaps in some ways that is motivating President Putin and powers in the Kremlin to be more aggressive and to try to maybe bring back some of these post-Soviet Slavic states into Russia's fold to bolster Russia's power and influence. But I think, you know, you have to look at that, that there's not some Russian plan to, you know, become another superpower to conquer the world.

I think it's more just to preserve Russia's stature as a country. And they know that they have to do something now because in the next 50 years or certainly the next century, Russia may simply just die off into insignificance. So you live in Ukraine. You actually recently married a Ukrainian, which you wrote a piece about, which was wonderful. Thank you. Very lucky. Thanks. So you spent a lot of time also in eastern Ukraine in these battle zones, you know, hanging out with soldiers.

who are fighting the Russians, what's it like to be a journalist in a place where there is not a long-standing tradition of free press? That's a great question. I think, you know, I've observed initially that most soldiers, most Ukrainian soldiers, are very reluctant to have journalists in their midst. I think the Soviet legacy,

even for people who don't remember the Soviet Union firsthand, but the people who grew up in a post-Soviet country, there is certainly a distrust of foreign media. And I think also it's important to understand that when the war began, Ukraine was just facing this, you know, this propaganda tsunami from Russia, portraying the war in eastern Ukraine as a legitimate uprising against an illegitimate government in Kiev, which was not the case.

But I think because of that, the Ukrainian authorities were really just kind of caught unawares about how to react to this. And their initial reaction was just to not let foreign journalists out there because they couldn't control what those foreign journalists were going to write. But I have to give it, hand it to the Ukrainian government in 2015. They started allowing foreign journalists to embed with their military in combat. And I was selected to be among the first who were to embed with the Ukrainian regular army in combat.

And I think that they discovered through my reporting and the reporting of other journalists that there is a value to allowing foreign journalists to be out there to tell the truth. The fact that it is a war that the ceasefire is a complete failure, that there's fighting ongoing every day. And the very notion, when I was out there, you know, a steady drumbeat of artillery pretty much around the clock, the Ukrainians' adversaries were used. drones to spot tank fire. There is, you know, electronic warfare going on. It's just very sophisticated modern war, which, you know, from my perspective, particularly as a former

Special Operations pilot in the U.S. Air Force, I understood that that level of combat, that level of combat proficiency is not something that can be picked up by a disgruntled, you know, factory worker or tractor driver who wants to stand up against the Ukrainian government. Russia's regular military presence had a decisive and very influential role in that war. So I think as time has gone on, the Ukrainian government has been more receptive to having foreign journalists out there, principally just to help tell the truth about what's happening. Among Ukrainian soldiers, I think at first, if I introduce myself as a journalist, you know, they kind of rolled their eyes like, all right, we'll show you around. But when they know that I'm an American, moreover, that I'm a combat veteran of Afghanistan,

and many of these soldiers' fathers fought in Afghanistan as Soviet soldiers, well, there's an instant camaraderie. There's an instant trust. And I think more than anything, they simply feel grateful that an American would go so far and undertake such great risks to tell their story. And I think that they feel sort of a common cause, a common purpose. they feel an affection for our country. And I think that I've learned one thing over my years of being a war correspondent,

which I never understood as a member of the military, which is that our country represents what they're fighting for. We are their beacon of hope. We represent a force for good in their eyes. And our country really means something to them. And we should be proud of that. And like I said earlier, we need to make sure that we uphold that reputation and live up to our promise here at home.

Well, it's a sobering reminder of what America is. And Nolan, we appreciate your work so much on the ground and your excellent reporting. And we hope you'll continue doing that as the months continue. Thanks for being on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. And that'll do it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to The Daily Signal podcast brought to you from the Robert H. Bruce Radio Studio at the Heritage Foundation.

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