The Daily Signal - #522: Mohammed Khalid on Combating Islamist Extremism

Episode Date: August 4, 2019

On today’s show, our colleagues Kate Trinko and Daniel Davis interview Mohammed Khalid, who made the record books as the youngest person in the U.S. to be prosecuted for terrorism. Khalid now is an activist who fights Islamist extremism. We also cover these stories:—A suspect armed with what police say were two large “machete knives” goes on a stabbing spree Wednesday in Southern California.—Some customers of Equinox Fitness and SoulCycle call for boycotting the companies over the owner’s plan to hold a fundraiser for President Donald Trump.—Universal Pictures pulls ads for a new movie that shows billionaires hunting “deplorables” for sport. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Friday, August 9th. I'm Rachel Del Junice. And I'm Jared Stetman. On today's show, our colleagues Kate Trinco and Daniel Davis, interview Mohamed Khalid. He made the record books as the youngest person in the U.S., prosecuted for terrorism charges. It is now an activist against Islamist extremism. Stay tuned for Khalid's story and how he got started working to combat Islamist extremism. And don't forget, if you're enjoying this podcast, be sure to leave a review or a

five-star rating on iTunes and encourage others to subscribe. Now on to our top news. A suspect arm with what police say were two large machete knives went on a stabbing spree in Southern California on Wednesday after a string of robberies attributed to the same suspect. At least four people were killed and more were wounded. Lieutenant Carl Whitney of the Garden Grove Police Department said in an interview with CNN, quote, I've worked here for 30 years. This is the first time I've ever seen something like this where we will have a suspect kill four people in one day and attack other people that are just innocent victims. It's pure evil. According to CNN, the victims included two people at the

suspect's apartment complex, a 7-11 security guard, and one more person at a subway restaurant. Some customers of Equinox, Fitness, and SoulCycle are calling to boycott the companies over the owner's plan to hold a fundraiser for President Donald Trump. This follows calls from several celebrities to cancel membership in the fitness company. Stephen Ross, who is the owner of the Miami Dolphins and NFL team, issued a statement according to ABC News. Ross said, quote, I have known Donald Trump for 40 years, and while we agree on some issues, we strongly disagree on many others, and I have never been bashful about expressing my opinions.

I have been, and will continue to be an outspoken champion of racial equality, inclusion, diversity, public education, and environmental sustainability. And I have and will continue to support leaders on both sides of the aisle to address these challenges. The Baltimore Sun ran a letter from the editor criticizing the motivations of Scott Pressler, a supporter of President Donald Trump, who organized a mass charity and cleanup effort in Baltimore. The Baltimore Sun editor said, quote, Look, we appreciate anyone who is willing to roll up their sleeves to help Baltimore, more than 170 people came from all over the country and cleaned up nearly 12 tons of trash,

according to Mr. Pressler's Twitter feed. But if this was all about Americans helping Americans, why all the videos of Baltimore residents thanking Mr. Trump for bringing attention to the issue? We happen to know that not everybody in West Baltimore feels that way, end quote. The Baltimore Sun concluded that Presler's efforts reinforce, quote, the tired image of our failing urban cores, that the poor people in this dilapidated city can't take care of their own neighborhoods, and all the public officials around them have failed as well, end quote.

Press to respond to the Baltimore Sun on Twitter, saying, The people of Baltimore love their city, but the city is forgetting its people. You didn't include how the city wouldn't give us permits for dumpsters. You didn't include how the city owns the abandoned buildings where illegal dumping happens. Retract this article. Universal Pictures is pulling ads for a new number. new movie that shows billionaires hunting deplorables for sport, according to the Hollywood reporter. The Hollywood reporter said of the new movie, called The Hunt, which is set to be released

in late September, quote, In the aftermath of mass shootings within days of one another that shocked and traumatized the nation, Universal is reevaluating its strategy for the certain to be controversial satire. The violent R-rated film producer Jason Blum's Blumhouse follows a dozen MAGA types who wake up in a clearing and realize they are being stalked for sport by elite liberals, end quote. The original title of the movie was reportedly, Red State versus Blue State. DePaw University professor and media critic, Jeffrey McCall, said to Fox News, quote, It says something sad about the state of the entertainment industry that this movie ever got

conceived and produced. How they would clearly think it is okay to stereotype so-called. deplorables and set them up for a hunt. Bank heaven some sensible outlets are pulling the promotional ads, end quote. Stay tuned for Kate and Daniels interview with Muhammad College. If you're tired of high taxes, fewer health care choices, and bigger and bigger government, it's time to partner with the most impactful conservative organization in America. We're the Heritage Foundation, and we're committed to solving the issues America faces. Together, we'll fight back against the rising tide of homegrown socialism, and we'll fight

four conservative solutions that are making families more free and more prosperous. But we can't do it without you. Please join us at heritage.org. Joining us today is Mohamed Khalid, an activist against Islamist extremism. He just spoke at the Heritage Foundation at a panel, and he's joining us in studio. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. Okay, so first off, you actually made, this is a weird way to phrase it, but you actually made the record books as the youngest person in the U.S. prosecuted for terrorism charges.

With that background, when did you first come to the U.S. from Pakistan? And what were your impressions of the U.S.? What did you think of it? So I came to the United States in late 2007 with my mom and my siblings. We finally joined our dad who kind of sponsored us to coming to the country. My first beginning impressions of the country were this dreamland. So this, you know, that magical kingdom like Hogwarts, you know, it feels like Narnia because that's all I was exposed to in Pakistan.

And these are, you know, movies. And of course, the media representation of the United States was the only thing that I was familiar with. So that's what I was hoping to find when I first came to the United States. And how old were you? I was about 13 years old at that point. And when you first came, I mean, I can't imagine moving at 13. Did the reality turn out to be as magical as you thought it would be? No, no, it wasn't.

I began to see the United States as a very, of course, it was a very developed place, for sure. But at the same time, I think there was not that much emphasis on the community mindset that I kind of had in Pakistan because everyone kind of knew each other, I think. So just navigating this very seclusive, isolated individual environment was kind of difficult for me to kind of process. But slowly but surely, I think I was able to, when I enrolled in high school and began to talk with people, I was able to make some sense of maybe the society, you know, being a little bit different, my ability to kind of reconcile that. But I wasn't sure how that would have gone. So at what point did you become interested in the world of Islamist extremism? And how did that transition come about? So in high school, I was subject to a lot of bullying and taunts, you know, because my first name is Muhammad.

And that happened to be a lot of students would just jokingly refer to us the name of terrorism. And I kind of wanted to know more answers to that, you know, why people were kind of associating my name, you know, with terrorists. So I just went online, began some YouTube searches about meaning of religious identity and religious ideology. One thing led to another. I started watching YouTube videos that would portray, you know, the West in a civilizational struggle against Islam and Muslims in general. And that is where I met online extremists who kind of made sense to my personal. journey. And did you have a devout Muslim background coming into that, or was this kind of your first deep dive into a certain? So I was born a Muslim, so I did have, I didn't memorize a few chapters

the Quran. I'd never really read the religious teachings or the religious aspect of religion itself. That happened afterwards, and the meaning of religion and the meaning of like religious phrases and texts definitely happened, you know, after when I began, my searches online on YouTube. So what online really spoke to you? Like, what resonated from the, extremists. The portrayal of or the depiction of the world as, you know, into device, like this black and white world, I think that kind of spoke to me and that kind of made sense in the way of what was happening to me. A lot of times and struggles that I faced in high school were, I mean, they were isolated, but they were also kind of directed towards me personally. So I just kind of

felt that I needed to understand what was happening to me. In that understanding, I began watching YouTube videos that kind of portrayed, you know, bombings and these, you know, killings that were according to the videos being done by the United States, you know, against Muslims in general, drone strikes, for example, you know, and all these air attacks. I began to see that as reality. I began to see that as something that was actually happening in the world. And that spoke to me about, like, our role as Muslims to kind of speak up and, you know, even advocate against those kind of things. And that's where online extremists kind of came in and swooped in and, you know, they introduced me to Islamist ideology.

And were you keeping that kind of secret or were you talking about it with your family and your friends? Oh, this was definitely something that was not known to my parents at all. Even my friends. I did not speak to anyone in high school about it. I did not speak to my own parents. My family was not aware what was happening to me. And, I mean, people online were just my brother and sisters, you know, so they were more than, they were just more than friends to me. And eventually that became part of my larger family.

and I, you know, I just dissociated myself with my own family, just sitting in my basement in my family's house, you know, not talking to my own parents, not talking to my own siblings, but just going online, spending hours upon hours, talking to these people, and trying to make sense of the world and, you know, the twisted ideology that it was part of. And obviously this is a hypothetical, but do you think if your high school experience had been different, if there hadn't been bullying, do you think you still would have fallen into this online world or not? I think I would not have had the motive if I was not bullied in high school to kind of know or learn more about, you know, the meaning of religion itself. So it's very, very, you know, possible that things would have turned out differently because I would not have the motivation or the instigation to kind of, you know, explore more about religion because there would be, you know, of course there would be no taunts at that point. But, you know, I think the presence of online stream is just so monumental in, you know, in terms of what they're doing, in terms of their inspiration.

I think that it's very hard to escape from it if you're trying to look for the meaning of religion and religious components, especially when it comes to Islam. So you've said you've got warnings from the FBI about your online activity. Tell us about that. Sure. So the FBI kind of became interested in me as I went more into the deep web area

and I began to peruse online extremist forums that were password protected. So a lot of my activities were not like known or they were not visible in the public. So the FBI kind of wanted to know more about my interactions of people I was communicating with and, you know, what I was saying and how those communications were in the nature of those communications. So we were, we had a lot of individual private meetings back and forth prior to my arrest. I guess I'm just thinking I'm a very

rule follower type of person. I would be completely freaked out if I was on the FBI's radar. Did you ever have a moment where you thought maybe I should backtrack now or how, what were you thinking during those meetings? Right. So I did not really think of the FBI as something that was serious threat to be taken into it because, again, I was about 14 or 15 years old at that point. So still neither the country is still reconciling my place in the country and not knowing, you know, what institutions are actually part of, which ones to take seriously, which ones to not. But the FBI, I just saw them as part of the other, as some, these people who had to be, like, whom I had to get off my back because they were just interested in something that, you know,

that I would have to tell them the answers to, but I would not have to take, them as seriously as they should have. I mean, of course, I realize, I guess, the biggest, the biggest reality came crashing down upon me on the day of my arrest, you know, when I actually found out that, well, there will be consequences for what I'm doing. And throughout my time in prison, I mean, that definitely gave me, I guess, the light in terms of, you know, knowing, well, the FBI was not kidding around when it came to, like, you know, my extremism or when it came to, like, dissuading me from the path, because they had warned that there may be consequences, but I just did not take them seriously. And did the FBI contact your parents?

or tell them about this? Correct. So the FBI did come to my house in front of my parents. They would not tell my parents what the meetings between them and me were about, mostly also because I did ask them not to tell my parents. So they respected that for some reason. But we would just go to an isolated room or we would just go to different, you know, areas like restaurants, for example,

and just talk about whatever they would want to know and they would kind of talk to me about my life and, you know, what I was doing online mostly. So tell us about your actual arrest and the trial that came after that. So a day after Independence Day on 2011, so July 5th is when I was arrested. I lost my independence on that day. I was taken to a juvenile facility and tried as an adult and charged with one kind of conspiracy to provide material to support to terrorists.

That faced, and I faced up to 15 years behind bars. And you were how old? At that point, I was 17 years old. Wow. And I, so I was tried as an adult sentenced to five years. And then after serving those five years, I was transferred to immigration custody, where a protractic legal battle over my citizenship ensued. And after some proceedings, I was finally released under supervision,

subject to three years of probation. And that was finalized and that was finished. And very recently I obtained my youth citizenship after the legal fight was won. And what was the terrorism plot that you were charged in conjunction with? What was it about? So the plot was a very famous plot with the woman best named by her moniker Jihad Jane. Her name was Colleen LaRose. The plot was to kill a Swedish, cartoonish, was it Danish or Swedish, I forgot.

But his name was Lars Wilkes. And he had drawn caricatures of Prophet Muhammad that many Muslims found offensive at that point. and the plan was to kind of eliminate him or kill him. So get, recruit people from the United States as well as Europe to travel to Europe and partake in also this organized group that another individual by the name of Black Flag had inspired to create.

And he wanted us to kind of be part of that. So I kind of sent out questionnaires. I sent out, I was always involved in translating jihadist propaganda. So I just took that a step further. and received some materials from Colleen LaRose and that I forwarded to her while she was actually traveling in Europe. So that was the actual nature of the crime itself.

And was there ever a moment when you were planning it where you thought, you know, this is going to result, you know, we're trying to kill a man here. And am I really okay with that? Or just, I just would love to understand more of your thinking at that time. So at that point, I think I tended to be very stubborn in my action. So I did not, I mean, at the same time,

I was also juvenile. So I don't think I completely understand. understood, you know, what the consequences of my actions could have been. A lot of it was aspirational instead of, you know, on the, on the field or stuff that could have potentially happened. But I do realize and I do understand that it was something that was serious. It could have potentially, you know, killed this innocent person. And, but, but that was, you know, I mean, hindsight, it was 20-20, right? I mean, at this point, I mean, yes, it was wrong for me to do. But at that point, I did not really see it as something that could have, you know, even, at least I did not take it as

seriously, as I should have at that point. Did you ever think about his family or his friends? I did not, no, because in this us versus them world that Islamist ideology is a part of, you forget about families and friends. You know, you don't look at the other person as a human being. It's just part of the enemies, but either they're with us or they're against us. So when you were in prison, you started to change your mind about Islamist extremism. How did that come about?

So I was actually encouraged to speak about my life, about my journey by correctional officers in the juvenile facility themselves. So they wanted to understand what was happening, what had happened to me and what my thoughts were. I was a recluse, I did not want it to talk to them. But they kept on insisting and eventually to start the conversation, they began expressing about their lives, you know, their dreams and their hopes and their struggles. And that's something that kind of really made sense to me personally in terms of, you know, that humanization aspect that was missing from my life.

So I did open up to them. And that was the beginning of my dream radicalization process, basically. So they actually encouraged me to read an English copy of the Quran, I did for the first time, and I finally was able to disavow my beliefs and my views, which is, it was not an easy thing to do. Of course, you know, it took a lot of self-reflection, but they definitely were the, you know, they definitely put me on that path by just humanizing. And was that because you're just reading of the Quran led you away from this extremism? You felt like that was a fair reading of the Quran?

Yes. I think there's a lot of out of cherry-picked words that are actually used, you know, by extremists, but in, you know, every, well, it happens in every single form of extremism, but especially like Islamist extremism, I think that there's a tendency to just cherry-pick versus of the Quran and, you know, use that as a part of, you know, propaganda strategy with something that I was involved in. But reading the Quran in its context, I think, definitely made sense. And the humanization part, which kind of spoke to the spiritual side of religion for me, kind of definitely helped me, you know, move on from that black and white mindset that I had.

And are you a practicing Muslim right now? I am. And what does your faith mean to you? I think faith is a guiding push. I don't think it's an end all towards everything. I think we all are, you know, believers in something. I mean, no one does not believe in anything. But at the same time, I think a lot of times, you know,

some people have a tendency to just use faith as this like end all thing that will, you know, that kind of, I guess that kind of like just separates them from the reality of what they are, you know, can, the reality of what they are in, I guess, if that makes sense. So the spiritual side kind of focuses more on the connections, books, focusing more on what we have common with other people. But I think a lot of times that religious side is kind of just narrowed down in its interpretations to kind of, you know, be this part of these extremes that you can be part of, you know, either like, we all go to heaven or either, you know, the disbelievers go all in hell. I like the thing that we all will, you know, have our judgment with God, which is, I think,

what Islam kind of speaks about. It speaks more about like, you know, we all are going to have our reward with God, you know, in whatever form he is. So there's a debate here in the U.S. about assimilation, whether we have an assimilation problem. What's your take on that? I think the issue is more about integration. I don't like the word assimilation. I think the issue is more about integration with the society. And I think that's a debate that's happening within the Muslim communities in terms of, you know, how far they want the Muslim identity to be part of the American identity. I mean, in the conference today, we spoke about, you know, the African-American Muslim identity and how there's a lot of initiatives on that aspect already. I think that could be

branched out to other cultural groups, whether they're Arabs, whether they're Hispanic, or whether they're, you know, African-American. I mean, a lot of groups can kind of work together in terms of, developing and enhancing their American-Muslim identity, you know, in the, while being part in this country, that, you know, is the greatest country in the world, in my opinion. Now, to return to your conversion, as it were, to not being an extremist, it sounds like it happened really suddenly. And I believe you mentioned at the Heritage Foundation panel that, you know, you also discovered, I believe that you were diagnosed with Asperger's. Is that correct? Correct. And did that play a role?

Did you understand yourself differently? Yes. Having an Asperger's diagnosis helped me understand why I was socially recluse. In high school, why I was not willing to confide in other people or even talk to people. it also made sense in the sense of like letting me know why I was focusing on so much on the internet and not on the human side of things so just knowing that had the characteristics of a disorder

but also like using my weaknesses as a form of strength in terms of like forcing myself to get to know people whether they were prisoners or the staff members and behind bars which is the only thing I could have done at that point I think was meaningful and very instrumental in helping me shape my worldview and my viewpoints I mean it wasn't it's easy to imagine that change as being so sudden and just being as something that I just spoke with people and they changed my mind, but there was a lot of internal, you know, there's a lot of

internal struggle within me that I had to reconcile and that it had to finally make a decision if that's a, you know, if this is the path that I want to take and what are the consequences for that path, you know, and whether they're going to be receptive to something that I want to live the rest of my life with, if that makes sense. Yeah, and it was, was it something that happened over months, over years, where there times where you were like, I think I'm going to be less, sorry, I'm paraphrasing in a ridiculous way, but I think I'm going to be less extremist, but then you would swing back and be like, no, I miss the black and white thinking. This isn't the way to go. I think it was definitely happened over the course of a couple of months. You know,

it didn't happen just in a few days, but it definitely, speaking with the correctional counselors in the juvenile facility in which I was incarcerated for a couple of months, and then, you know, just continuing that conversation with other officers and other prisoners when I was in Bureau of Prison, custody in an adult institution, I think led me on a path to, finally renounce my views and, you know, understand the world as more than just being black and white, you know, like I like to say that the world became more colorful for me, you know, while it's behind bars, which is unfortunate, but I do believe that I needed the reality of prison to come to terms with my actions. What advice would you give to Americans who are not Muslim,

engaging with Muslims to, in a way that encourages people away from extremism? What can non-Muslims do? I think a lot of times non-Muslims and Muslims do, uh, have the possibility of working together on a lot of, like, interfaith issues, I believe, because a lot of times, you know, Islamist ideology kind of capitalizes on this us versus them divide, right? Like, just portioning everyone who's not part of the Muslim faith as just someone, you know, who's just part of the other. So understanding the person behind that other label, understanding whether they're Jews, Christians, atheists, agnostics, you know, whoever they are, and just communicating with them on a human level, right? Just like sharing about, you know,

something as personal as some biggest struggle that you faced with or some biggest challenge that you dealt with, you know, can be very meaningful to some, someone, you know, who happens to be Muslim and who's also reconciling their place, you know, in this country. It is difficult, I think, sometimes to be a Muslim in an atmosphere that's polarized and, you know, in which there's a lot of, you know, attacks or bigotry sometimes directed against Muslims. but I think in the end it's about balance and, you know, bringing out, you know, the ideals of American dream that I think we all aspire towards. And you were radicalized at a very young age, and it just seems like we talk a lot in this country about sort of the crisis of young men and being troubled and looking for meaning. And, you know, it connects with all sorts of issues from, you know, extremism to not finding jobs, et cetera. I'm curious just because of what you've been saying, if you're familiar with Jordan Peterson and if you have any thoughts, on what he has to say. And also, what would sort of be your advice to parents of young male teenagers who seem troubled? And can they monitor their online activities? Or what, in retrospect, would you say?

I think, in a way, all of us are looking for a meaning, sense of a purpose, and belonging in this world. And I think being a young person, you're in a particular spot to develop your identity, develop your place in the world and how you relate to the world. I went wrong in that case, right? like I did not find the right company and the right community in which I could be part, you know, be a part of and contribute to the community. Instead, you know, I became part of the extremist circles and, you know, proliferate and propagated in your extremist ideology. I think a lot of times, if we have the necessary, like, guidance, whether it's from our parents or even, not just our parents, but also like our teachers and our people who go, you know,

with us to school or goes, you know, with us to our religious places. I mean, if it's just like a basic conversation about life, you know, just like getting to know the other person. Also getting to know the person who's beyond that culture, right? Not of this, for example, I'm Pakistani. So not just a person who's a person who's who's a Pakistani, but also a person who may happen to be from Spain or who may happen to be from Australia, you know, just connecting what makes us more human, I guess, definitely helps in that understanding of the world as more inclusive and more diverse than just being secluded to your own culture and, you know, having that identity, you know, within the same religious circle that is, you know, it may not be.

Does that make sense? It does. And do you have any thoughts on Jordan Peterson? I've heard a few talks about Jordan Peterson, but I've not really. Okay. Some of the stuff he says just seems to be relevant to what you're saying. So if you ever read him, let me know. All right, Mahamakala, thanks so much for your time and for sharing your story here.

Thank you for having me. And thank you for being so honest. I know we asked you a lot of probing questions. Of course. And that'll do it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to the Daily Signals podcast, brought to you for from the Robert H. Bruce Radio Studio at the Heritage Foundation. Please be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or SoundCloud.

And please leave us a review or rating on iTunes to give us any feedback. We'll see you again tomorrow. The Daily Signal podcast is executive produced by Kate Trinko and Daniel Davis. Sound design by Lauren Evans and Thalia Ramprasad. For more information, visitdailySignal.com.