The Daily Signal - #543: A Former Abortionist Explains Her Change of Heart

Episode Date: September 11, 2019

For years, Dr. Kathi Aultman, an OB-GYN, performed abortions, believing she was helping women. Then, a trio of abortions she performed after having her first child left her unsettled--and put her on a different path. Now she is an advocate for giving medical care to abortion survivors, and an associate scholar at the Charlotte Lozier Institute. We also cover these stories: • National Security Adviser John Bolton is out at the White House. • The NRA is suing San Francisco over labelling the group as a terrorist organization. • The first gay credit union is set to open soon. The Daily Signal podcast is available on Ricochet, iTunes, SoundCloud, Google Play, or Stitcher. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts. If you like what you hear, please leave a review. You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at [e-mail]. Enjoy the show! Release date: 9 September 2019 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Wednesday, September 11th. I'm Kate Trinco. And I'm Daniel Davis. House Republicans have repeatedly pushed for a bill to protect infants born alive after surviving an abortion attempt. But Democrats haven't budged in their opposition. Today, Kate will sit down with Kathy Altman, a former abortionist who recently testified before Congress in favor of the Born Alive initiative.

And if you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure to leave a review or a five-star rating at iTunes and encourage others to subscribe. Now onto our top news. John Bolton is out at the White House. President Trump announced on Tuesday that he had fired Bolton as national security advisor saying, quote, I informed John Bolton last night that his services are no longer needed at the White House. I disagreed strongly with many of his suggestions, as did others in the administration. And therefore I asked John for his resignation, which was given to me this morning. thank John very much for his service, end quote. But Bolton quickly disputed that account,

saying on Twitter that he had offered his resignation the previous night and that Trump had said, let's talk about it tomorrow. He later told the New York Times that was his own initiative. His resignation comes as the president has sought diplomatic avenues with U.S. adversaries like the Taliban and North Korea. Bolton had preferred to take a harder line. Supreme Court justices don't often talk to the media. But Justice Neil Gorsuch recently spoke to CNN about originalism and the role of the Supreme Court. Here's what he had to say. I say this country is owned by we the people.

We wrote a constitution. We put down what we wanted to put in it. We can amend it when we wish. And it is not up to nine people to tell 330 million Americans how to live. But what if some of those people, for instance in the same-sex marriage debate, said, look, there were some states that were never going to allow same-sex marriage. We needed the court to step in. Well, I'd say to you, you can make arguments for any case you have of any kind

about the original meaning of the Constitution. It is not a judge's job to do whatever he or she thinks would be good. Do you really want me to rule the country? Well, in your book, you address this, and you say, under originalism, individuals don't have to worry about judges changing their rights willy-nilly. Exactly. If you want to change the Constitution, you can do it. What is your response to people who say that takes time, that takes a nationwide consensus? I say get involved. This is supposed to be a republic of we the people. You're supposed to be able to control your fate.

Is it supposed to be hard to make change? Of course it is. Do we want social? consensus and the best ideas? Of course we do. It is a raucous republic. Gorsuch is the author of a new book, A Republic if you can keep it. New Jersey is getting creative in its pursuit of gun control. New York Times reports that the state will stop doing business with gunmakers and retailers who don't follow certain background check standards. In addition, the Times reports, quote, the state will also apply pressure on major financial institutions seeking information from banks that do business with New Jersey about their relationships and policies involving gunmakers and sellers. The state, which says it pays more than a billion dollars in bank

fees every year, could use the disclosure requirements to decide whether to continue doing business with financial firms, end quote. The policy directive is a new approach for states, one that New Jersey officials, per the New York Times, say they hope other liberal states will follow. A new census report shows the poverty, rate went down in 2018 to 11.8 percent, a decrease of half a percentage point from 2017. The census also said in a press release, quote, in 2018, for the first time in 11 years, the official poverty rate was significantly lower than 2007, the year before the most recent recession, end quote.

91.5% of people were on health insurance in 2018, a drop from 2017 when 907.9.9.5% of people were on health insurance in 2018, it dropped from 2017 when 92.1% had it. Median household income continued a three-year streak of rising and was $63,000. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has announced his intention to annex the Jordan Valley, along with other parts of the West Bank. The Prime Minister told reporters, per NBC, this is a historic opportunity to apply sovereignty to communities in Judea and Samaria. I request a mandate to apply Jewish sovereignty to all communities, and I intend to do so in coordination with the United States.

Well, that pitch was made days before a planned election on September 17th. Netanyahu is fighting for political survival, having failed to cobble together a coalition government in parliament after a nationwide vote took place in April. He's also been under investigation for corruption allegations. His proposal to annex more of the West Bank would mean the construction of more Israeli settlement, in a region mostly populated by Palestinians. The White House has not yet commented on that proposal. The NRA is fighting back after San Francisco's Board of Supervisors declared the group was a domestic terrorist organization.

According to the Associated Press, the NRA filed a lawsuit earlier this week that, quote, accuses city officials of violating the gun lobby's free speech rights for political reasons and says the city is seeking to blacklist anyone associated. with the NRA." Meanwhile, a new Rasmussen reports poll says that a whopping 28% of Democrats are okay, making it illegal to join pro-gun groups like the NRA. A bank just for gays?

Well, it looks like that is coming soon. On Monday, the state of Michigan approved a charter for a new credit union designed for LGBT customers called Superbia, allowing the online company to begin operations early next year. Bloomberg reports that the company will offer products tailored to the LGBT community, for example, loans to those who are transitioning their gender. The company's founder, Miles Myers, says the LGBT community faces obstacles from mainstream banking institutions and that his company will make it easier for the LGBT community to get access to financial services. Next up, we'll have our interview with Dr. Kathy Altman about infanticide and measures that Congress is looking at.

If you're tired of high taxes, fewer health care choices, and bigger and bigger government, it's time to partner with the most impactful conservative organization in America. We're the Heritage Foundation, and we're committed to solving the issues America faces. Together, we'll fight back against the rising tide of homegrown socialism, and we'll fight for conservative solutions that are making families more free and more prosperous. But we can't do it without you. Please join us at heritage.org. Joining me today is Dr. Kathy Altman, a retired OBGYN, former March for Life speaker and an associate scholar at the Charlotte Lozier Institute.

Dr. Altman, thanks for joining us. Thank you for inviting me. Okay, so you just testified in a hearing, the end infanticide examining the born-alive abortion survivor's protection act hearing. What was that hearing about and why did you decide to speak there? Well, the hearing is about the Born Alive Abortion Survivors Protection Act, which would protect babies that are born after abortions and require that they be given the same care as any other baby of the same gestational age. It also requires that medical personnel report if there are violations of the act, which in a way protects people. It protects nurses and texts from being forced to watch babies that are born alive just die and not be able to do anything for them. The reason that I wanted to come was because I feel this is so critical.

People have said that this law is unnecessary because in 2002 they passed a similar law, but all it did was say that once a baby is born, and it should be afforded the full benefits of the law, that in fact they're a human being and they deserve to be protected. It did not do anything to prevent a doctor from just allowing a baby to die from exposure or to passively die. And it didn't require medical personnel

to do anything special for that baby. So it just basically said, it's a human being and if you overtly kill it, it's murder. So you're in OBGYN, so obviously you understand what you're talking about when it comes to medicine. One of the contentions we're hearing a lot from the left is babies don't survive abortions. Is that true? That's not true. And now that a few states have been required to report abortions, the numbers are coming in.

They are surviving. And we've got living, breathing examples of this in. Melissa Oden and a large number of other people who have actually survived abortions. In the hearing today, one of the representatives related an experience when he was a resident and was called down to the emergency room to attend a woman who was bleeding to death after an abortion. And in the other room was this baby that looked completely healthy except its one arm was limp, Well, apparently the doctor was intending to do a dismemberment abortion and grabbed a hold of the arm and the whole baby came out.

And so that's how that particular baby survived. But if the cervix is over dilated, even in dismemberment abortions, you can have live babies. There was a baby in Florida where the woman had the laminarie inserted to dilate her cervix and then she was given some side attack. to cause contractions. Well, she delivered before the doctor got there. This happened in the waiting room. They tossed the baby on the floor, cut its cord, threw it in a bio bag.

And she later filed suit because the baby had not been cared for, and it was sort of horrendous reading through the suit to look at all the violations in that clinic. So I would think that at least some of the, these babies who survive abortion would be considered born premature. What do we know for modern medicine about the survival rate of premature babies? Well, they did an interesting study where they looked at the differences between hospitals and whether the babies were actively cared for or whether they were just left with no care.

And in the cases where the babies were actively cared for, they actually had good results. And the neonatologist who testified today testified that the youngest baby she's had survive was 22 weeks. Wow. But medicine has come so far that these babies are surviving and they're surviving really without bad sequela. You know, you want to have babies that survive and can function. But that can happen if the babies are treated appropriately. And that's what's so important about this bill is that we give these babies a chance. They've survived abortion.

There are those that say, well, this is a very private decision that should be made by the doctor and his patient. Well, these are the people that just tried to kill this baby. Why are we going to let them make the decision? It should not be in their hands. and that's what this bill is about is providing a definite structure so that if the baby's born, and it's alive, then they have to involve someone else. Okay, to switch gears a little bit, you yourself are a former abortionist. So what changed your mind on this issue?

Well, when I went to my residency program, I was extremely pro-abortion. I'd had an abortion, and I think that probably colored my thinking, but I felt that it was a matter of women's rights and it had nothing to do with the baby. And so I was trained in first trimester D&C with suction abortions, but I was so gung-ho. I went and did a preceptorship with one of our attendings and learned how to do dismemberment abortions or D&Es, which are later term abortions. And I felt that I was a woman's advocate and I was helping women. So I felt that I was doing everything right

and I loved taking care of women. I moonlighted doing abortions at a clinic and continued to do that even when I was pregnant and felt that there was no, I saw no incongruity with that. My baby was wanted, theirs was none. That was the difference.

after my delivery however when I came back to work in the clinic something had changed in my mind because I felt a little different all of a sudden and I was confronted with three patients that basically changed my mind the first one I had personally done three abortions on before and I hadn't been doing them that long and I was not the only abortion at that clinic. I went to the clinic staff and said, hey, I don't want to do this. She's using it as birth control. This is ridiculous. They said, well, it isn't your call. It's her right. You need to do the procedure. So I did the procedure and afterwards tried to get her to use birth control and she refused. The second patient came in with a girlfriend and sometimes they would ask to see the

tissue. And this girlfriend said, do you want to see the tissue? And she said, no, No, I just want to kill it. And I thought, what did this baby ever do to you? Now, that's the clue. I don't think I ever thought of them as babies before. The third patient came in and she had three other children and they felt, she and her husband felt that they could not afford another baby. Well, she cried the entire time she was there.

And after that, I couldn't do abortions anymore. the fact that they were unwanted was no longer enough justification for me to kill them. The sad thing is that I still referred for abortion. I still believed abortion was a woman's right. I just sort of thought it was the lesser of two evils. And it really took God a long time to completely change my mind. So what did in the end completely change your mind? Well, this is politically incorrect.

go for it um one thing some changes began as i was in practice and i saw young girls who got pregnant and they actually did extremely well well that did not jive with the feminist propaganda that i believed i believed that if you got pregnant uh when you were young it would just ruin your life then I also started seeing women who came in who'd had abortions and who were struggling psychologically. As a matter of fact, this one woman came in, and this goes to show how babies can survive abortions. I saw this woman who had an abortion at 20 plus weeks, and she was given an induction abortion where you just start labor. At the appropriate time, she was told to sit on the toilet and push, and she delivered this 20-plus week living baby into the toilet where he drowned.

So don't tell me they don't survive. And we had heard multiple examples of babies surviving at the hearing today. So I had those kinds of experiences. and then eventually what made the difference was my father was with the unit during World War II who liberated the first concentration camp. And so I grew up with all those stories and pictures of things that had gone on. And when I became a doctor, I couldn't understand how the Germans could do what they did. And specifically the doctors, how could the doctors do those horrible experiments?

I read an article that compared abortion to the Holocaust, and it was the big aha moment for me, when I realized that here I was killing all these people because I didn't consider them to be human beings. And that's how the Germans were. They did not consider the Jews and the Russians and the other people that they exterminated to be human beings. And from that point on, I became pro-life and actually answered an email that I got asking if there would be anyone willing to go to Congress and testify. And I said yes and didn't end up going at that point, but then began testifying in favor of the partial birth abortion ban 20 years ago. And as you look back on that, I think, you know, obviously we engage in debates here at the Daily Signal. and it seems more and more in modern life

that people's viewpoints are so hardened and they're afraid to rethink things. Why do you think you were open to rethinking this? Well, I think God had a lot to do with it. It's interesting that when I first became a Christian, I still believed in abortion, and it was several years later that he was able to, I guess, finally get my attention.

I think it's a series of things. There's usually some event, like with Dr. Levatino, it was the death of his daughter. I've spoken to other OBGYNs, and oftentimes it was their own, the birth of their own child that made a difference. It's usually something that has to jar you, I think, and open your eyes so that you can see the truth. And I think the big problem in the United States today is the media has. been so biased that they have not reported the truth, especially not with this particular act. You know, people say, oh, well, that never happens. This isn't necessary.

It's just one more roadblock to abortion. This bill has nothing to do with abortion. This has to do with rescuing babies who have survived and should have the full protection of the law on their side, and they don't. and they should not be discriminated against just because they're unwanted or because they were slated to die by abortion and didn't. So how would you recommend that if people have someone in their life who either works in the abortion industry or is adamantly pro-choice, how would you recommend discussing this issue with them? I think it's difficult. My own family is pro-choice.

I think a lot of us have family divisions on this. issue. Yeah. I think you have to just lovingly try to sprinkle your own life and conversation with stories of things that have happened. I did not change my mind because people yelled at me or screamed at me or berated me. It was Christian friends who loved me, even though they didn't agree with my opinions. They loved me enough to be my friends, but then they also loved me enough after they got to know me well enough to give me that pamphlet. And really what the one guy said was, I know you feel strongly on this issue, but would you be willing to read this? And I said, okay, because I trusted him.

So interesting. Well, to switch gears again a little bit, so we often hear that if you believe in science, you should be pro-choice, you should be pro-abortion. What do the medical facts actually show on this issue? And that's crazy because science is really on the pro-life side. There actually is no other place that we can define the beginning of life other than when a sperm and an egg meet.

We know that these babies develop quickly and that they feel pain. And yet the media never reports that kind of stuff. And it's always poo-poohed or told it's a blatant lie so that people aren't aware. So many times when I have spoken to people, they are absolutely appalled when babies beyond five months are being aborted. They think, well, that doesn't happen. Oh, it's only in the first trimester. And I think the vast majority of Americans do not approve of abortions past the first trimester, especially when you're dismembering them to get them out.

Right. I think the Knights of Columbus commissioned a poll that's usually released on January. Newbury that you can tell, I can't remember it exactly, but I believe it's around 75% of Americans would be okay with no abortions past the first trimester, which, as you say, is not a fact the media ever reports. It's always abortion up until the point of birth. Okay, so how do you think women are affected when they have an abortion? And how can we support women who have had an abortion? I don't think any woman can have an abortion and remain unscathed. You can't kill your child and not have it affect you. We don't have good data on it because most women who have

had abortions don't talk about it. And oftentimes it's not till later that they regret what they've done or they may not understand that their substance abuse, their depression, their failed marriages can be related back to the trauma from their abortion. So we really don't know how much, it affects women because it's not, most women don't report. We do know that it does occur, and there have been some studies that have shown that they do have problems after abortion, not just physical problems, but emotional problems afterwards. They need to be supported. They need to be loved. They need to understand that we have a forgiving God who can forgive even that. And I think that's a hard thing for many women to understand.

On a very deep level, they feel that if they've killed their child, that they can't ever approach God again. And that's untrue. If God can forgive me, he can certainly forgive them. I think the biggest problem is it's such a secret so that women are out there, but nobody knows who they are or that they're suffering. There are groups out there for counseling. It does take counseling and healing and prayer.

I had to go through a lot of, I had to go through a lot of healing and prayer to be able to forgive myself. Did you ever have any qualms, any concerns about doing abortions yourself? There was only one time that I had had any qualms about doing abortions. and that was when I had my neonatal intensive care rotation and I realized that I was doing abortions on the same size babies as the babies I was aborting. But, you know, we're very good in medicine about compartmentalizing and I just kind of tucked that to the back of my mind

because otherwise I really did not see a fetus as any different than a chick embryo. and so I could get rid of them without any conscience. My concern was for the patient, the woman. We actually have two patients as obese, but I didn't consider the baby as a patient if they were unwanted. And if you don't mind me asking, when you said we're good at medicine,

at compartmentalizing, what did you mean by that? it means that we can kind of put things in different boxes. And so we take an oath that we are only going to help and not harm. But we take this little exception, abortion, and we stick it over in the corner. We, again, don't do any harm. But so often in medicine we have to hurt our patients in order. it and make them better. So again, we just kind of compartmentalize that and look at it a different way.

Okay, this is okay because it's going to eventually help them. Abortion is okay because look at the life this poor girl would have if she couldn't have her abortion and, oh, she might go have a back alley abortion or something. which it's interesting that it wasn't Roe v. Wade that really decreased the mortality of abortion. That started long before. And if you look at it graphed out, it was a pretty steep decline after the introduction of antibiotics and other medical procedures, So that it was just kind of the same downhill trend. There were actually apparently more deaths from abortion right after Roe v. Wade than there were right before.

And unlike the, I think the number that was thrown around was something like 5,000 deaths from abortion. They're actually, I can't remember the exact number, but maybe it was in the 30s, the number of abortions that had occurred, I think, the year before Roe v. Wade. You mean that resulted in death? Abortions that resulted in death, maternal deaths. Okay, Dr. Kathy Altman with the Charlotte Lozier Institute. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you for bringing me here.

I'm really, feel honored. That'll do it for this episode. Thanks for listening to The Daily Signal podcast, brought to you from the Robert H. Bruce Radio Studio at the Heritage Foundation. Please be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or SoundCloud, and please leave us a review or rating on iTunes to give us feedback. We'll see you again tomorrow.

The Daily Signal podcast is executive produced by Kate Trinko and Daniel Davis. Sound design by Lauren Evans and Thalia Ramprasad. For more information, visitdailysignal.com.