The Daily Signal - Best of 2022: Clarence Thomas in His Own Words

Episode Date: December 26, 2022

This week, we are looking back at five of our, and your, favorite podcasts from 2022. Thirty years after his confirmation to the U.S. Supreme Court, Justice Clarence Thomas continues to have a profound influence on American law and culture—evident again with last week’s landmark rulings. A new book, “Created Equal: Clarence Thomas in His Own Words,” gives readers access to hours of the exclusive content from the justice himself. Building on the success of a PBS documentary by the same name, the book chronicles Thomas’ amazing life and includes unreleased conversations with his wife Ginni Thomas. Filmmaker Michael Pack, who produced the “Created Equal” documentary, and Mark Paoletta, a personal friend and lawyer who worked with Thomas during his Supreme Court confirmation, join “The Daily Signal Podcast” to share their favorite stories and what you’ll find in the book. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, December 26th. I'm Rob Bluey. We hope you had a wonderful Christmas and are still enjoying time with family this week. Today kicks off the Daily Signal's Best of 2022 podcast series. We are looking back at Five of Our and your favorite podcast from this year. And we are kicking the series off today with my conversation on the incredible life of Justice Clarence Thomas. Filmmaker Michael Pack and Mark Paoletta, a personal friend and lawyer who worked with Thomas during his Supreme Court confirmation, Join me to discuss their book, Created Equal, Clarence Thomas in his own words.

Building on the success of a PBS documentary by the same name, their book chronicles Thomas' Amazing Life and includes unreleased conversations with his wife, Ginny Thomas. Now stay tuned for our conversation after this. Today, news you can trust feels like a rarity. That's why the Daily Signal podcast releases a top news edition every weekday at 5 p.m. Whether driving home from work, fixing down, dinner or picking the kids up from soccer practice, you can stay informed on the headlines you care about. Every show is quick and succinct, designed to keep you up to speed on the issues that

actually matter. Catch our top news edition right here in your Daily Signal podcast feed every evening or listen first thing in the morning before catching the day's interview. And be sure to subscribe on the Daily Signal podcast so you never miss an episode. We are joined on the Daily Signal podcast today by Michael Pack and Mark Payoletta. They are the co-editors of a new book called Created Equal. Clarence Thomas in his own words. Gentlemen, thank you for joining the show. Thank you for having us on.

Rob, thanks for having us on. Well, we appreciate you being here at the Heritage Foundation or you're doing an event to celebrate the launch of this excellent new book. Michael, you have worked on a film by the same name. But let's focus on the book first because it's brand new. it's Clarence Thomas, as the subtitle says, in his own words. Why is it so important for you to collaborate on this particular project at this time? Well, it is a spinoff of the film.

So the film, for your listeners who haven't seen it yet, and I hope there are not many. But if there are any, they can still see it. It's streaming. It's on Amazon. It's on Newsmax and Fox Nation. And they could go to our website, Manifold Productions.com, and find out where else it's streaming. So we did the film, and the film is called Clarence Thomas in his own words because I interviewed Justice Thomas and his wife, Ginny, for over 30 hours. And we had him looking directly to camera.

So he told his story. So listeners, viewers got his version of events from his birth up to today. And the interview was over 30 hours, which is longer than any Supreme Court justice has ever granted an interview. And it was an honor to get that from Justice Thomas. And I always say that we took the 30 hours. and we narrowed it down in the first pass to nine. And Mark Paletta said, it's perfect at nine. But no one else thought so.

So we made it the two hours that we had promised PBS to make it. But Mark always wanted to get those missing hours back in. And he came up with the idea of the book as a kind of revenge, I guess, and to get the hours in the – and he was actually right. It was a huge amount of material. The book is 95% new material, and it's really great material. So it's really Mark's brainchild. Yeah, it was quite an honor to work with Michael on the film.

He's the best documentary filmmaker. And to have him interested in making the film on Justice Thomas was just wonderful. And to be able to work on it in the way we did and the way I did was just a treat. And as we made the film, though, and we saw all these great passages and exchanges get cut away, it was just killing me that, you know, we're going to lose all of that. And so going through all the interviews and pulling it together into a book as a way to, it's more material. So Justice Thomas talks more in depth about the things that Michael went over in the interview, but also things that he didn't even touch on his favorite books or books that had an impact on movies, right?

But also on, you know, expanding on sort of the liberal policies and the left and their tactics and how viciously. they are and the tactics they use and how their policies destroy families, right? And so you hear more of that in this interview. And then it's just a book. And a book is much more accessible than a movie. People will watch it, you know, many people have watched this movie multiple times, but it's not something you just pull up and say, oh, I just want to watch this clip, right? Maybe once in a blue moon. But with the book, it could sit on your bookshelf, it could sit on your desk, it could sit around, and you can pick it up and open up a page. And the way we made the book, is still chronological through his life, right?

But the table of contents is really broken out in sort of the title and then like five to ten subtitles so that if you look at it, you can see, oh, that's going to talk about Carnegie Library or this is going to talk about, you know, his love of Ayn Rand's Fountainhead. And so you can see that and say, oh, I want to go look at that part of the book and read it. So you can read it all the way through, but it's also very accessible and just more accessible as a book and that a movie. And that's why I thought getting, I don't know if it's my life's mission, but it's something I'm very dedicated to of, you know,

sort of defending Justice Thomas and promoting his work in his legacy in his life, which has not been done enough. And that more people hopefully will learn more about in this process and as we go forward. Well, that is so true, Mark. And I know that you are somebody who has spent a good portion of your life doing exactly what you just said. And for those of our listeners who aren't following on Twitter, encourage them to do that, to search out the work that you've done, not just there, but

on your op-eds and everything else that you've written. Michael, you bring a great history of documentary filmmaking. I would like you to each just take a moment to share your connection to Justice Thomas. What was the passion behind the movie to begin with, Michael? And then, Mark, if you could recount some of those stories that you shared with Heritage President Kevin Roberts for our listeners who didn't hear that particular podcast, I'd love few you just to reflect on the first time you met Justice Thomas and how he's been an influence in your life. Well, the whole project started because some mutual friends of Justice Thomas's and mine,

people I knew, were concerned that they left and his enemies were telling his story. There was an upcoming HBO movie called Confirmation with Kerry Washington and Zanita Hill that took a negative view of the Hill-Thomas hearings. And they wanted to get his story out. And I didn't know that much about him. But as soon as I met him, I knew as anyone who has ever met him knows that he has a great personality, a great live story, and has a great teller of his live stories. So as soon as that happened, I really wanted to make the film. It took me a while to come up with a form of him telling it directly to camera. I mean, we pursued the idea of a traditional documentary first where we would interview 15 or 20 people on all sides of these issues.

But I thought Clarence Thomas' voice would be lost. And I didn't want to take sides in these things. The goal, a primary goal, was always to get it on PBS. It was released first in movie theaters. It was in over 110 movie theaters until COVID hit, which is a lot for a documentary. Usually five or ten is pretty good. And then it did really well on PBS. It was on prime time.

And as I said earlier, it's now streaming on Amazon and elsewhere. So my goal is to get it on PBS. And how was I going to deal with the fairness question and doing all sides and not lose Justice Thomas's voice? This way, its subtitle is Clarence Thomas in his own words. You get to hear his view of everything, including the hearings and his time on the court and his extremely eventful life from poverty in the segregated south to today. His way. And it doesn't, if you don't like them, you can say, I don't believe him. But we have actually heard from lots of people on the left who saw the film on PBS who said, I didn't like him before.

I still don't agree with them. but now I understand him and where he came from. And that's what documentaries are supposed to do. So that's how I came to it. And it has been an honor to get to know Justice Thomas and be trusted to tell his life story. He had no editorial input. So it was a lot of trust. And an offshoot of it is to get to know Mark.

Another great honor and privilege of the process. And that has been great too. So that's sort of how I came to it. Well, thank you, Michael, for sharing that. And congratulations on the success. that you've had, I know the challenges that must go into getting PBS and the distribution into theaters. And I think it's just a testament to the high quality of your work.

And I hope that you have equal success with the book. But let me make a point before you go on to Mark. I think that conservative films cannot be successful. The Clarence Thomas film is a model. We try to make films that reach the center, that people can watch whatever their politics and give a fair account of what they say they're going to do. this says this, the deal with the viewers, this is going to be Clarence Thomas in his own words. And so it is.

We can reach the middle, we on the right, there are many, there are very, not way too few conservative filmmakers. And what there are are ones that make sort of red meat conservative films, which preach to the choir, which is fine. But we can't let the left tell our stories to the entire rest of the American people. And we can get them out there, you know, PBS and other sources. We simply haven't put in the time, effort, and money that the left has done to do that. And we post this film are going to be dedicated manifold productions, my wife and I, to doing that.

Well, that's great to hear. Thank you for setting the example and being the lead model for hopefully future other filmmakers who come and following your footsteps. Well, we are starting an incubator to train young right of center filmmakers. So there are too few of them. The left have hundreds. We do not have any. So we're going to start vice training a few a year and hope to build from there. Mark, take us back to the 1980s when you first met then Clarence Thomas,

who was long before he became a judge. But then bring us up to the current situation that, you know, the times that you spent together with your family and his wife, Ginny, and just how he's been an influence on your life. Just he's a wonderful, wonderful friend and person. I first met him in October of 1983 when I was a senior in college. And George Bush was, Vice President Bush was going up for campaign for my uncle, who was a Republican mayor of Bridgeport, flew up by Air Force 2, and went to this event.

And in Bridgeport, and Vice President Bush went on to another fundraiser in Staten Island. And I stayed behind, and it just so happened that Clarence Thomas was, speaking at a college, the Sacred Heart University, where his friend and former colleague in the Reagan administration, Tom Malady, who was my mentor, was hosting him. And so Clarence and Tom came over and I was there and one of his aides was there. And we just sat around for about an hour in the Sheraton lobby. And it just loved him. Like it's sort of like anyone who meets Clarence Thomas, right? He's just electrifying.

He's got this great personality. He's engaging. He engages you. and your interest and listens to you, unlike so many people, right? And here I'm a college senior, happy to be up on this trip, you know, with Vice President for my uncle. But I meet this guy, and he just made such an impression on me. But I was a senior in college, went on with things.

I ended up joining the Bush White House in 1989. I was working on judicial selection. And very early in the administration, like in January, February, February, we wanted to reach out to Clarence Thomas to see if you'd be interested in being on the D.C. circuit. And however I was a young where I volunteered, you know, I think I referenced meeting before, and reaching out to him and asking him for his, you know, his articles and his speeches and his writings so we could vet him. And I ended up talking to him probably for an hour, right, when I first called him. And it's just such a great conversation.

And it's just, again, engaging, interesting, funny, just fills the conversation fills the room. And from that conversation, and I still have the letter he sent to me, something like, I hope your eyes are, you know, strong to read all this stuff. Because as I look ahead at your task, you know, I know it's going to be long nights or something like that. Out of that was born on our friendship. And I worked with him a little bit on his D.C. circuit. and he offered me a clerkship on the D.C. Circuit. But the counsel's office offered me a job to work for Boyden Gray, and I stayed in the White House and then ended up working on his confirmation

where it was just, you know, a war, right, a hell to attack and destroy him. And out of that work, our bond was forged and worked very closely with him. You know, I always say a lot of people helped just to – as Thomas get confirmed, but the person most responsible was Justice Thomas. And right from the get-go, right after he was nominated, he was nominated on July 1st, I think that was a Monday or Tuesday, that Saturday after kind of all the, you know, sort of commotion of the beginning of the confirmation, I went over to his chambers, like on a Saturday morning on the D.C. Circuit, and we went through, and we had become

close already by this point. Even when he was on D.C. circuit and Satan Touch, you know, I got to know Ginny and my wife, the four of us were friends. But he went through his rolodex with me of everyone, like, who's this person, who's this person? So in case things pop up. And, you know, as we go through this fight, here are my friends to call. And I think back on that. So as these things popped up because I spent my summer batting down lie after lie after

lie on Clarence Thomas, right, that he had a Confederate flag, right? that he was a tax cheat because there was some tax lien on his house, which is completely false, right? That there was domestic violence allegations in his divorce, which was completely false. All of these things just took a lot, a lot of time to respond to. But he had the foresight sort of, you know, Mark is going to be my guy to help, you know, sort of address all of these things as we're going through and that he trusted to help respond to them. You know, so going back to that moment, you know, really that and, and of course, Robert Bork's confirmation, you know, really set us on a path that we find ourselves today where we have these big fights over Supreme Court justices and other judges, frankly. What is, as you talk to Justice Thomas, what are his reflections and thoughts about that period and time and the lies that he was faced with and the terrible situation that he was confronted?

And how did he have the strength and courage to carry on? Well, the way he tells it, both in the film and the book, is that not everyone remembers the hearings have two parts. And the first part was sort of like the Bork hearing. You know, it was a vicious attack, as Mark kind of alludes to. And all these other fronts lies about, you know, look at his record, questions from the Senate Judiciary Committee on natural law, on Roe, on all these things. And it was a very tough period of time.

And when that was over, Justice Thomas and Ginny went off on vacation and they thought it was over. And the Senate Judiciary Committee split 6'6 and sent the nomination up to the Senate and they were ready to relax. And then, as Mark also said, the Nita Hill allegations were leaked. And then it was in NPR and Newsday and the Senate Judiciary Committee was called back. As Justice Thomas has said, it's like we run a marathon, it's over, you relax, and then you're told. to run another marathon. And Ginny is very eloquent on this in the book, I think. And she said, you know, there was nothing left of Clarence Thomas.

He had used all his normal responses. And they felt they had to fall back on faith. Ginny particularly talks about this. I mean, and they no longer cared about getting the nomination. And as you may know, that some of his advisors advised him not to give the famous high-tech lynching speech on the commonsensical thing as if you want people to vote. for you, don't attack them. But he thought it was about honor, honoring his grandparents, honoring the nuns who taught him,

defending his values and principles, and he wanted to speak the truth directly and strongly, and so he did. So that's the way he tells it. Mark lived through it with him, but that's the way he tells it. I want to say something about Mark and the Thomas's. So making this film, I'm trying to get the story right. And so I talked to Ginny once or twice, and she said, well, talk to me. to Mark Paletta, he knows more about our lives than we do.

And I thought that was kind of an exaggeration, but it turns out to be 100% accurate. And, you know, so his knowledge is deep. So my knowledge is what Justice Thomas told me in the interview. Well, I agree with you on that, Michael. As I've gotten to know Mark, and Mark and I reminisced recently about how we were at the same event here at the Heritage Foundation with Justice Thomas in October of 07, when his book came out, my grandfather's son. And so I believe that about Mark. I think that is true.

Mark, let me ask you, fast forward to today, because the attacks have not ended. In fact, we're in the midst of the January 6th committee, and we see the attacks continue, not just on Justice Thomas, but on Ginny. And how do they get through this? And by the way, I have to commend Ginny for coming out and saying, I will testify, I will tell you the truth. So very much taking a page, it seems, from Justice Thomas. himself. Yeah, it's, it's, it's unprecedented, the attacks that are on the Thomas's. I think it's sort of directly, you know, in relation to sort of Justice Thomas's, you know, influence. They've

always wanted to destroy him, going back to the confirmation. You know, Justice Thomas knew that they were common for him, right, always. And he never trusted that he was, you know, that there was something that they're going to come in trying to destroy him. And, and, you know, he had to wear a bulletproof vest at the time because there were death threats on him back then. So we're living this right now, right? But I was scarred or informed by that confirmation. You know, the Kavanaugh won, it just seemed to be a replay. But a lot of stuff that's happening now.

It went on with Justice Thomas. It's just on steroids now across the board, right? And I think the left wants to destroy the Supreme Court because it's no longer their playground to enact, you know, their legislative priorities, which they couldn't get through, you know, a legislature at the state level or the federal level. and the Thomas is and Justice Thomas, you know, bears the brunt of it because he's this black conservative who's never bowed to them. And they're now trying to get to him through his wife to try and get him to recuse. They know they'll never bend him or intimidate him.

It's just trying to get him recused in some crazy way. And I've written a lot on this, Robin. You know, the recusal sort of arguments have no place in the law or in precedent. There's lots of judges and justices, quite. frankly, who have had spouses that have been in law firms, who have been in the public square, where nobody's recused, and they're actually celebrated for it, right? So it's been very tough on the Thomas's, you know, particularly, Justice Thomas has been through a lot, right?

And there's been times when they've actually gone after Jeannie Thomas back with Obamacare back in 2012. There's a crazy one there too, right, where Ginny says, ObamaCare is a disaster. And for some reason, Clarence Thomas is supposed to recuse himself from the Obamacare cases because his wife opined, right? when we have, literally at the same time, Stephen Reinhardt's wife, who's the head of the ACLU, Stephen Reinhardt, a judge in the Ninth Circuit, very liberal, the most reverse judge, I think, in history, the late Stephen Reinhardt. And his wife is the head of the ACLU, Southern California, and she files a brief in the court below that goes up to his court, and he sits on it.

And everyone applauds him for, you know, this great couple, you know. So there's different standards. There's always different standards for Clarence Thomas, right? And they're applying him to his wife now too. But going after his wife is really, really bad. It's really despicable. And it really hurts Justice Thomas. And he understands it, and it's not going to bend them or break them.

It's just difficult. But they have each other. They have an extraordinarily strong relationship in marriage, and they have their faith. So they'll get through it. And, you know, and this is really just. Justice Thomas, I call it in full. I mean, this is, you know, the court has come his way on so many cases. He is the leader.

He's got, you know, multitudes of former clerks that are judges now that are rising through the ranks. All these law students as one of his liberal, I don't know, critics, but a writer said, Justice Thomas, you know, has, he's written these dissents and concurrences that law students have read and said, wow. I like that. And I'm going to use that going forward. And he's energized the whole army of people to implement. And when I say implement, be faithful to the Constitution as an originalist when they go about and make those arguments and not be afraid to make them and show that courage. I think that's the greatest legacy of Justice Thomas is going to be the courage he shows and the kindness.

And as I mentioned to you in the podcast with Kevin, you know, when Justice Thomas had gotten through his confirmation and was all beat up, really beat up. and utterly destroyed. Goes on the court. One, the first conference that he sits on, he switches Rehnquist and Scalia's vote, right? So the racist trope that he has to, but also just the ability to do that, literally the first week he gets confirmed and walk into this conference. And then a few months after that, I was diagnosed with cancer, and we just had our first kid.

It was obviously devastating. And even though he had been through this terrible trial, he was there for me every single day, called me, came by, visited me, brought me out to his house that he was building, and we designed sort of the island, which to this day he says, Mark and I designed that island, you know, brought me pies, took me for hamburgers, always checked in on me and just thought about me. And it's a special, it's a special thing, but he does that to hundreds and hundreds of people. And it really is amazing. And that's the story. He'll never seek that recognition, right, or that

attention for all those things he does. But Justice Sotomayor the other day, he said, as, you know, your listeners may have heard, said something similar, right? Justice Thomas knows everyone in the courthouse, who their family is, their kids, how they're doing. And that's just who Justice Thomas is. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that personal story, Mark. I appreciate you opening up and letting our listeners hear that.

I think it just speaks to his character and humility. So you mentioned his legacy. And I want to ask Michael to weigh in on this as well. How do you think history is going to judge Clarence Thomas? Well, I am hoping that his legacy has not been written yet. I'm hoping he stays on the court for a good long time. However, you know, I think he's done, you know, as Mark said, he's written over 600 opinions more than any other Supreme Court justice. He's influential in almost every area of the law.

We focused in the film, and to some extent in the book, although the book is broader even, on the affirmative action cases where he was strong, but he's been very strong on the administrative law cases. That's, I think, another area where he switched or at least persuaded Justice Scalia to come closer to him on perhaps reconsidering Chevron deference and these other questions of how to restrain the administrative state, which is, you know, the part of government that is taken upon itself, upon its. self-legislative, judicial, and executive functions that rightly belong back in Congress. And so I think there are a lot of areas where he's influential. But one of the reasons we wanted to tell his life story, and this goes to another point of Marx, is I think he's influential in his personal story in his life and what he stands for, maybe more than any listing of the court of the opinions he wrote or his positions. And I think he does affect a lot of people individually that know him, as Mark's story is a very, very dramatic example of.

And I hope the film in the book lets people who don't know him individually, as we three do, have a chance to spend time with him and get that sense of who he is as a person beyond the particular stance he takes. Mark, to that point, do you have a favorite part of the book that you particularly recommend to readers or a favorite story from, that the justice recounted in the film? That's tough for me. You know, it's such an emotional experience with the book. So there's, you know, just like when I read his speeches and articles, and he's just like calling people out, I'm a fighter, right? And to read Justice Tom has taken on Congress and just laying him out in those speeches

40 years ago or 30 years ago, he does a lot of that in the book, right? He really calls out. the left and their policies and their tactics. That's fun, right? Then you have the personal stories, right, of growing up and knowing I've been down to pinpoint several times. I know his mom and kind of the, you know, sort of the environment he grew up in. And so, and obviously the visits to the nuns, which he talks about and the influence on them. And again, bringing it back to, I was, you know, again, here's a story on Justice Thomas. The Irish nuns ran the school or he went to school as his grandfather enrolled him in St. Benedict's and segregated South in Savannah.

And in the 80s, he goes and seeks them out to thank them for everything they'd done for him. And then one of them testified in his confirmation. And I got to know her sister Virgilius, who's taken on this larger-than-life sort of, you know, whatever, position. And every Martin Luther King Day for about 15 years, Justice Thomas and I would drive up to go visit the nuns in Tenafly, New Jersey, in the retirement home. So there's probably 60 of them, 80 of them, all of them, between the ages of 60 and the oldest one at the one point was 108. And we'd go spend the day with them and sit in the cafeteria and have lunch, and then we drive back down. And that's the, so that's in the book, but it just brings back a great memory, you know, of doing that with him.

So it's a wonderful book on so many levels, including the administrative state. The other thing that Justice Thomas can do is really break down complicated constitutional questions in a very relatable way about the separation of powers and how founders wanted to separate those powers to protect our liberty in that administrative state we were just talking about is where they're all coming back together with these agencies and running our lives. And it's just so perfect the way he talks about it. You know, very, you can just break it down. And that shows you his command, right? And the way he can have your common citizen understand these important, important concepts in our, in our constitution, in our country. So it's, as Michael said, the nine-hour film was perfect for me. So, you know, there's a lot of parts I like in the book.

Well, I'm so glad that you were able to capture it in the book. Michael or Mark, any final words you want to share with our listeners as we wrap up here about Justice Thomas or your work on this project. Well, I think we have to say appeals listeners to buy the book, right? It's available on Amazon.com. It's available on Barnes &Obles.com. And everywhere else you can get a book. And I also think they should watch the film, those who haven't. And that is streaming on Amazon.

It's streaming on Fox Nation and Newsmax and Salem and many. other places, and if they go to our website, Manifold Productions.com, like a full list of the places of streaming, some for free. So I encourage them to watch it. There's nothing I feel that I could say that's as good as hearing directly from Clarence Thomas. That's why we structured the book and the film that way. But it has been an honor and privilege to work on the film, and I hope we've conveyed some of that to listeners. Michael, for our listeners, we'll make sure that if you go to DailySignal.com, you're able to get links to all of those places. to buy the book or watch the film. So thank you for outlining them for us.

And Rob, I really want to thank you and Heritage and Kevin Roberts in particular. What Heritage has done to honor Justice Thomas is just really, really amazing. And, you know, there was a symposium, I guess, in October of 21 honoring Justice Thomas's 30 years on the bench. And it was a full day symposium with a number of his former law clerks that are judges talking about Justice Thomas's jurisprudence. And I would invite your. your listeners to go to your site and look at that, that symposium. Justice Thomas actually gives a speech, which is definitely worth hearing, obviously. And so, and I had the pleasure of sitting down with Kevin and you doing this, and we're having an event tonight to celebrate the launch.

Today is publication day for our book. And it's just really honored to be here and to be able to talk about Justice Thomas. Well, thank you both again for co-editing, created equal. Lawrence Thomas in his own words, we'll be sure to leave our listeners with a link to purchase the book and follow your work as well. I know this is not the end of what you're doing, Mark, in terms of telling the truth about Justice Thomas and Ginny. And Michael, it sounds like you have exciting plans in the future with your productions. And so we hope that this is not the last conversation we have. You're always welcome back at The Daily Signal.

No, thank you. Thanks, Rob. We appreciate it. And that'll do it for today's episode. Thank you for joining us this week for the Daily Signal's Best of 2022 podcast series. If you have never left us a review or a rating on Apple Podcasts, please take a moment to do so before the end of the year. Every time we receive a rating and a review, that helps us reach more listeners. And we love reading your feedback.

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