The Daily Signal - Bonus: Sen. Josh Hawley Wants American Men to Be 'Tremendous Force for Good’

Episode Date: November 10, 2021

Sen. Josh Hawley discusses the "crisis" of manhood in the United States with The Daily Signal. Hawley suggests that liberal messaging on "toxic masculinity" has driven able-bodied men to forsake their masculinity and withdraw into idleness. The Missouri Republican calls for a new message to be sent to the men of America: one that focuses on what men can accomplish if they orient their masculinity towards the good. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a Daily Signal Podcast bonus episode. I'm Mary Margaret O'Lehan. I recently had the honor of chatting with Senator Josh Hawley about some cultural commentary of his that rouse the wrath of the left, specifically his thoughts on the crisis of American manhood. We'll touch on the senator's thoughts on toxic masculinity, pornography, complementarity between men and women, and more.

Let's dive in. My guest today is Senator Josh Hawley, a Republican representing the people of Missouri. Senator Hawley, thank you so much for joining me today. Hey, thanks so much for having me. So, Senator, you delivered remarks on masculinity at the National Conservatism Conference last week, and they have sent some of your critics

absolutely spiraling with rage. You said, and I quote, many men in this country are in crisis and their ranks are swelling because the problem with the left's assault on the masculine virtues, is that those self-same qualities of the very ones the left now vilify as dangerous and toxic have long been regarded as vital to self-government. Can you explain to our listeners? What are these virtues that you're referring to?

Well, take courage for instance, take independence, take assertiveness. The things that the American Psychological Association now says are instances of toxic masculinity. I mean, psychologists and others for years have noted. in men, that they tend to be assertive, they tend to be independent, they tend to be competitive, which, of course, not say that these same qualities don't appear in women, but psychologists like the American Psychological Association and said, yeah, these tend to be dominant characteristics in men, and that they're problematic. And my view is, and my point is, is that not necessarily. I mean, what we want is we want men who are going to be responsible, who are going to use their

assertiveness. You're going to use their bent towards independence. You're going to use their bent towards competitiveness to serve other people, to serve this country, to provide for their families, for the children that they father, for the women that they love. And here's the bottom line for me. Right now, we've got 16 million or more men who are completely out of the labor force. They're not looking for work. They're not trying to find work. They're just sitting at home. These are able-bodied men. These are prime age working men. That's a problem. That's a crisis. That's a, that's a God. of men. That number has quintupled since the 1960s. We've got an epidemic of fatherlessness in the country. 18 million American kids don't have their fathers present in their lives or in the

home. These are genuine crises. And the less response to this is to say manhood is toxic, the male characteristics, they're toxic. Men by being men make America more oppressive. And my response to that is not true. We need to call men to be who they were made to be and to step up and be responsible. We don't often hear discussions of real ordered masculinity anymore. Your comments are some of the first on masculinity that I have heard in a while. What would you say makes a man truly masculine? Well, you know, I think a man who is living up to all he could be is somebody who is responsible,

somebody who serves others. So a father, a husband, I mean, these are the sort of classic roles that men have played for as long as they've been men that we're aware of. I mean, so I think that you look at those characteristics that, again, philosophers and psychologists have identified with men, assertiveness and independence and competition and all the rest. Well, men who use those to help other people, to provide for other people, to support themselves and their families, to contribute to society. Those are classically people that we've said, okay, hey, that's what good manhood looks like.

that's what good, responsible masculinity looks like. And I think that's what we need to call them to. I think this idea that, hey, masculinity is inherently toxic, that men who display these characteristics are inherently problematic. You know, we need to kind of wash that out of them. I think that that's a big mistake. I think that sends the wrong message to men of all ages, but especially the young men. I think instead we need to say, you can be a tremendous force for good in this country,

in your neighborhood, in your family, and we need you to be. So focusing on the good that men can be rather than the bad that they can be. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And listen, this is, as I said in the speech, you're not going to get any excuses made for me for men. I mean, well, I think responsibility is one of the most important things that God can give us, and that is true for men. So, you know, for men who don't want to work, for men who don't want to take responsibility, for men who want to retreat into violence, you know, they own those.

choices. So men are not victims. And I don't think we need any more victim talk in this country. We certainly don't need it for men. But what we do need to say is, listen, men, you have a lot to contribute to society. And I think that those voices on the left particularly who want to define masculinity is inherently toxic, who want to say that if you display those masculine characteristics, you are contributing to the oppressiveness of America, that's wrong. That's the wrong message and the policy that that message is encouraged, whether it's de-industrialization, you know, sending away our manufacturing jobs, sending away our working jobs for men who don't have college degrees, whether it's the message that the left dissent, the policies that they've embraced,

that the family is at best optional, you know, if not outmoded. I mean, we know that many liberals we've heard just this last year talk about how the family is an inherently oppressive structure. the family is inherently patriarchal. Those are the wrong messages and the wrong policies, I think, for the country, and especially for men, we need to be telling them, no, we need you to be working. We need you to be supporting a family. We need you to be contributing member of society because you can be a tremendous force for good.

What do you think of the term toxic masculinity in general? Do you think that that is a term that should be used? Is it a real thing? My view is that when my issue with it is, is I don't want to see masculinity defined as toxic inherently in and of itself. And I think that that's the direction that the left rhetoric pushes. Take, again, the American Psychological Association. I pick them because, you know, they're not some isolated voice.

I mean, this is a professional association that has a lot of influence. And they are out there saying that these basic characteristics often associated with men, and I've named it several times now, assertiveness, are in and of themselves toxic. and that they are a barrier to mental health and a barrier to physical health. They've encouraged boys, young boys, at school-age boys, like my own, by the way. I've got two school-age boys and then a baby daughter as well. But they said, you know, boys need to be sort of educated out of those characteristics, of those qualities. I just think that that's fundamentally wrong-headed.

I think that's fundamentally mistaken. What we need to be saying to men of all ages is use that assertiveness, use that competitiveness, use that. and then use those things for good. You know, use them to be responsible. Use them to provide for yourself and then to provide for the people that you love and be a contributor. And by doing that, it's not only about pulling your own weight, although that's important, but by doing that, you can really make a tremendous difference for society. You know, this goes back to the masculine virtues and what political philosophers have said for centuries is that, hey, we need men of virtue in society. That's part of what helps make a republic possible. That's what keeps liberty safe.

We need women of virtue, too, for that matter. But for the men right now, I just want to say, listen, you know, again, you can be a tremendous contributor to this society and can change this society for the better. I mean, can be a great force for good. But that requires choosing to be responsible, choosing to serve, choosing to step up. Some of your critics insisted that your comments about masculinity were offensive to women. And I found this very interesting. And I would love to ask you, does stressing the importance of masculinity take away from the good that is femininity?

Oh, heavens no. In fact, it emphasizes that. And what the truth is that the left right now doesn't believe in gender at all. They don't believe in masculinity, but they don't believe in woman that either. And this is why you see them attacking women sports. You know, I mean, the left wants to destroy the spaces that have traditionally been spaces for women in the society. And girls sports is a leading example.

It is insanity to say that women should have to accept biological men playing sports and allow them to dominate the sports, which is what is likely to happen and is happening in some places in which is occurring. I mean, to destroy those spaces for women is crazy. Women's locker rooms to take those away. We've seen the results of this that can happen in Loudoun County, Virginia. We have that infamous assault in a girl's bathroom by a biological male. Some of my colleagues in the Senate, Democrat colleagues, won't say the word mother.

They say birthing person. I mean, seriously, I sit in committees and listen to this craziness. So the left really is attacking gender, man and woman. And they just don't believe in gender anymore. They believe, I guess, that all of that is optional and all of that is to be defined. However, the left that the president wants it to be defined. I just think all of that's wrong-headed. And I think by saying, no, actually, there is such a thing as manhood and there is such a thing as womanhood.

And those are wonderful things. We need strong women. We need strong men. And those complement each other. Responsible men, complement and empower strong and responsible women and vice versa. And I think that's a message that's really important. And by the way, that's a message that people who are working every day, raising a family, they know that. And that's why when they listen to this talk about their being noticed as things, gender, and they

listen to this talk about destroying women's sports, and they listen to this talk about saying that boys who are active in school need to be medicated, that they just think it's crazy. They think all that's crazy, and they're right. That's really, really interesting. And I love the point you brought up about men and women being complimentary. I think that's a principle that you often hear in Catholic or Christian circles is that men and women are complementary and were created to complement each other. Yeah, you know, indifference is a great thing.

I mean, men and women are different, and that's a wonderful thing. I mean, we shouldn't, this is one of my concerns with the left is doing their attack on gender, is basically trying to erase womanhood, for instance. You know, we can't stay mother. We can't say woman. We have to stay a birthing person. I mean, that's ridiculous. Women, only women can be mothers.

And there's a reason for that. And there's nothing wrong with that, by the way, as if we have to hide it or women should be ashamed of it. I mean, the differences between men and women are wonderful things. And we should have, we should be seeking strong, independent, empowered women in this society and strong, independent, empowered men who will compliment and serve each other. And for the men, you know, I say this as a man myself, I think the message needs to be, hey, we need you to take up, to stand up and take responsibility for the kids that you father and not just leave that to their mother to provide for me.

if you look at the numbers, those 16 million men or more who are not even looking for work, able-bodied men out of the workforce, what are they doing with their time? Researchers have tracked this. Are they spending time with their kids? No. Are they contributing to their kids' lives? Nope, not really. They're allowing the women in their lives. They're allowing the mothers of the children to carry the burden. That's wrong. We should say to the men, listen, you're going to father kids. You've got some responsibility. You need to help provide for those kids. And you need to do something to support the woman in your that you love and not to say, well, this is not all your problem. So I think that there's a strong message here of responsibility, but it's also a message of empowerment that we should be sending

to men and women, but especially to those men and young men right now who need to be called to step up. You also brought up a very intimidating topic in your remarks at this conference last week, pornography. And it's an issue that many on both sides of the aisle, particularly men, avoid talking about or get really riled up about. You are one of the only politicians I know that has been so outspoken about condemning pornography as a moral detriment on our society. Can you share with our listeners

why you believe it is harmful? Well, I just don't think that we want young men or men of any age, but especially young men. I don't think we want them spending all of their time on porn and video games rather than working and going out and starting a family and being a contributor to society. And I think that we need to send the message that, you know, it's not an acceptable set of life choices from a social perspective.

You know what? I don't think I'll think I'll just live off other people. And I think I'll just spend my time on leisure activities. And whether that's watching porn or playing video games or doing, it doesn't really matter. But whatever it is, not working, not supporting, not contributing. And, you know, the left, you're right. I mean, if you mentioned porn, he mentioned video games, the left goes absolutely crows. It's crazy.

Which is interesting. If they want to be the party of porn and video games, go right on ahead. I think that conservatives, we need to say, listen, we're going to be the party of responsibility. And we need to say to men that we need you. This society needs you. And we need you to get out there, to get a job, to start being a contributor because, boy, if you do, that could be huge for the people in your life that you love and huge for this country. Yes, you referred to a quote, enclave of idleness that men withdraw into where they kind of withdraw from the world and turn to porn and video games. And that comment, a clip of you speaking about that, definitely drew a lot of ire on social media.

You seem to have touched a nerve. Apparently so. On the left, very sensitive about the topics. I mean, I leave the others to interpret what that means. I just say again that, listen, the data on this is really clear. I mean, again, if you look at all the data on what men are doing when they're not working and not looking for work, they're not out there volunteering at their local church, and unfortunately, and they're not out there helping with their kids.

What are they doing? They're spending it on what researchers code as leisure activities. You know, that's not a great use of their time. I'll just be frank. We need those men to go get a job, and we need the – again, we're talking about able-bodies. men in here now. We need them to go and to get a job, and we need them to contribute to their family and to their neighborhoods. And there's a policy element to this, too, that I talked about in the speech. One of the reasons we got so many men out of work and out of labor force is we have

sent so many jobs overseas, so many good-paying jobs that you previously could have used to support a family, and now those jobs are gone. And the left has supported this. You know, the left has wanted to create an economy that is an economy where we don't have all of those manufacturing jobs that cause all that pollution, where we don't have all of those jobs that don't require a bachelor's degree. That's been fundamentally mistaken. Look, two-thirds of this country are about don't have their bachelor's degree. There's nothing wrong with that. And we should have good-paying jobs in this country for men and women, where you don't have to go get a four-year college degree

and get saddled with tens of thousands of dollars. in death. And I talk about that in the speech. So there are definitely policy implications here. And I think we need to have our eyes open about that and address those. Well, in China, we heard recently that officials are talking about or already have started limiting how much minors can play video games. What do you think about that? Well, you know, that sounds like a society that's, of course, very command and control. but once it's citizens to be active, I would just say this, that, you know, obviously in the United States of America, people could choose what they want to do with their time.

I think that as leaders, those of us who have a voice, we need to encourage those in our own families, those in our own communities, in our states, and in the end of the country, we need to encourage them to say, hey, we need you to step up. And this is the message I really want to drill in on. There's just one thing I could say to the men of this country, especially the young men of this country, it is this. We need you. We need you. We need your masculine qualities, that assertiveness and the competitiveness. I don't think those are inherently tough. We need those qualities. Shouldn't be ashamed of those. Use them for good. But we need you to

shoulder responsibility. We need you to blaze a trail. We need you involved in your families and in your communities. That is the message I think we need to be sending. Well, your comment, Senator, kind of remind me of the messaging we saw in World War II when the country called on young men and said, I want you to serve in the Army and to defend our country. Do you think we're in a similar crisis right now? Well, I think that we're in a period of time where as a society, if you look at the number of young men who are dropping out of school, high school, college. I mean, we've seen the recent reporting, for instance, from the Wall Street Journal showing that only 40% of college students, students now are men, 60% are women and experts think that that ratio will soon be two to one. When you've got 71% of male high school seniors saying that they don't like school and they'd like to

drop out, those are concerning numbers. And we see this kind of withdrawal of men from the institutions of our society, whether it's getting a high school degree, going on to get some higher ed, some vocational training, what have you, when you see the withdrawal from work, when you see the withdrawal from family. Men are getting married less frequently. They're delaying marriage longer. They're waiting to become fathers, and fatherlessness is growing. Men who are fathers, more and more of them, are not taking care of their children

and getting involved in their kids' lives. Those are all big problems. And they've got major implications socially. I think we need to be honest about those. We need to have a conversation about those, and there's a lot to talk about there and a lot of implications. But I come back to the fact that the fundamental message we need to start with is is that manhood is good, men are needed, and we need men to step up. So this is not the first time that you've been ridiculed for your firmly held beliefs. I remember a few months ago when people

tried to make fun of you for a poster you had in college of a man cradling a baby. These are topics that a lot of men, in particular men, will mock you for talking about. What drives you to take a stand on masculinity, on pornography, on idleness? Well, for one thing, I'm a father. You know, I'm a father of two school-aged boys now. And I want, for my own kids, as they get into school, if I think about them, you know, growing into young manhood soon, you know, being a father is a sobering thing. For one thing, it makes you realize how fast life goes, but it also concentrates your priorities.

And as I think about that, my wife and I think about what that means together to raise boys. you know, I want to be somebody who's always calling my own boys up to this standard and saying, hey, you have amazing gifts. You have amazing talents. God gave you those to use those for good for other people. And I think that that's the message that we need to be sending as a country. And as I look at my own kids and as I think about my own responsibility as a father. And then when I look at the numbers in our country on fatherlessness, on joblessness,

us, I just think, boy, this is something that matters to every one. And it's something that we should be talking about. And a final question for you, Senator, keeping in mind, we were just talking about your sons in the future of masculinity in America, do you think that we need anti-pornography legislation? Would you be open to any kind of legislation like that? Well, I'll tell you one thing that I had proposed is I think that pornography that is made without the consent of its subjects and is used that is made under false pretenses, which unfortunately there's a lot of reporting out there to suggest that this happens not infrequently, that then is posted without the consent of the persons who've been filmed or involved. You know, I think that there's a clear

place to take a stand at stake that's wrong, and that if someone has been victimized in that way, they've been misled about the making of the film of the video, what have you, the material, or it's been made and posted without their consent, they ought to be able to either get it taken down or they ought to be able to sue and recover damages if you've got platforms out there who are knowingly taking advantage of people in this way. And again, there's a large body of reporting and growing

about how some of the porn industry and some actors within it go out to places, they recruit young women in particular, say, hey, you know, come to a photo shoot, come to whatever, and then it turns out to be something very different. and then the women haven't given consent for it, that's a big, big problem. And I think that we ought to give individuals power. I mean, in that case, let the people who've been victimized, let them tell their story, let them have a voice, let them sue to get the material taken down or sue for damages.

And I've introduced legislation, it's actually bipartisan legislation that I think is important and is an important step there. I believe I've written about that legislation myself. So it sounds like you think that we should take action to censor pornography. that is not the subjects of it perhaps have not consented or are not willingly in it. But what would you say about pornography that is consensual? Well, you keep the word censor. I mean, what I would say about the legislation I've introduced is, it's not government censorship in terms of it's not government going through and saying, well, I'm going to

review this, so I approve that, don't approve that. What it is is that it allows individuals who have been targeted, who have been targeted, who who have been lied to who have been victimized, it allows them a day in court. It gives them the ability to get into court and say, wait a minute, you didn't get my consent or you lied to me or you told me this is going to be something else. And now I want you to take that down or I want to be compensated for it with damages. I think that's important. And I think that gives power to individuals in an important way. And I think that's an important principle here that, again, I think has bipartisan support and we should go after.

Senator Hawley, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for joining us today. Hey, thanks for having me. And that'll do for today's episode. Thanks for listening to The Daily Signal Podcast. You can find the Daily Signal podcast on Google Play, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and IHeart Radio. Please be sure to leave us a review and a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and encourage others to subscribe. The Daily Signal podcast is brought to you by more than a half-hour. a half a million members of the Heritage Foundation. It is executive produced by Virginia Allen and Kate Trinco,

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