The Daily Signal - ’Called to Be Distinct’: Southern Baptist Convention Must Withstand Left-Wing Influences, Denominational Leader Says

Episode Date: July 13, 2024

The United Methodist Church's pro-LGBTQ stance might foreshadow a similar future for the Southern Baptist Convention unless Baptists firmly oppose left-wing influences, says William Wolfe, founder and executive director of the Center for Baptist Leadership. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is a bonus episode of the Daily Signal podcast. I'm Elizabeth Mitchell, and I recently sat down with the founder and executive director of the Center for Baptist Leadership, William Wolfe. We talked about conserving biblical values within the world's largest Protestant organization, the Southern Baptist Convention. William Wolfe has served in the Trump administration as a director at the State Department and as a deputy assistant secretary of defense at the Department of Defense. Let's get to my conversation with William Wolfe. I'm here with William Wolfe. The 2024 Southern Baptist Convention wrapped up a few weeks ago with the SBC narrowly rejecting a ban on female pastors. Why do you think this happened?

And what do you expect the SBC to decide on the subject going forward? Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on. And so I would try to clarify that just a little bit. So in the Southern Baptist Convention's statement of faith, it does affirm that we believe only men can be pastors. That's what we call our Baptist faith in Message 2000. However, over the last decade plus, there's been a rising tide of women pastors in the Southern Baptist Convention. The theological term we use for that is egalitarianism.

And that is in contradiction to our statement of faith. And so a local pastor, Mike Law, led an effort to amend our constitutional. to re-clify that we still believe this and to actually, by amending our Constitution, give some more clear direction to one of the main committees in Southern Baptist Life that deals with these issues. And so while the constitutional amendment failed on its second vote, it had to get 66% to pass two years in a row. I wouldn't say that this means that we so much rejected a ban on women pastors as we failed to more clearly articulate what we believe. on this. Now, why that happened, I think, is because there is quite a variety of liberal leadership in the Southern Baptist Convention, and they really spent the last year working hard against it in a way

they hadn't the year prior. And I think the confusion and the attacks on it ultimately peeled off enough votes that it didn't get across the finish line. And what were other takeaways from the convention? Yeah. So I think one big takeaway actually was after this amendment failed that a lot of the conservatives have put a lot of time and effort in to fight and to promote and seek to pass, I was very encouraged by the fighting spirit that's going to continue. This isn't an issue, I think, that is going away or can go away for the Southern Baptist, so it's going to continue to be debated, and people like Mike Law want to continue to advance reaffirming our commitments to Scripture. We believe this is what the Bible teaches. Of course, different denominations

have different theological positions on this, but we believe this is the one that is faithful to scripture. So one takeaway is it's not going to way the conservatives are going to keep fighting. Another takeaway, too, is that we passed a resolution speaking clearly in a way that Baptist hadn't before against IVF and raising ethical and moral concerns with that. That's something that we haven't done. That's obviously a big topic of conversation in the conservative right right now. So I think that was good that Baptist spoke clearly to that issue in a timely manner. What is the Baptist argument against IVF? Yeah, well, the idea is that life begins at conception, at fertilization, and everybody is made in the image of God, and there's no difference in the value of a life in the

womb, even from the earliest stages, to, you know, the newborn baby in your arms in the hospital. And IVF, unfortunately, the way that is most often practiced results in a lot of fertilized embryos being destroyed. So we would understand that to be the destruction of life. Now, there are some rare cases where IVF is practiced in a more conscientious moral and ethical way, but those aren't the standard practices. What advice do you have for Christians about standing with biblical principles like the ones we've just discussed when they are so unpopular in today's culture? Yeah, that's a great question. I think that one of the most important virtues that Christians need to cultivate, and this day and age is courage. Courage is, in many ways, the operating system that all of

your commitments run on. It doesn't really matter what you say you believe on paper if at the time of testing you're not going to defend it. There's this author, Mark Knoll, he wrote this book, The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, a while back where he said, you know, that evangelicals aren't particularly academic or intellectual, and I disagree with him on that. But I think the real scandal is that we don't have a spine, that evangelicals are lacking a spine. And so I would say be courageous and trust the Lord. I think of Daniel. And particularly in Daniel 6, when he was rising up under King Darius and he was well thought of and people were jealous. These other rulers were jealous and they realized there was no way they were going to get Daniel unless they got him on something related to his faith.

And so they got the king to pass a law to say he shouldn't pray. What was the first thing Daniel did, he went and prayed at the window like he always had, even though he knew it might cost him his life. I think that's what young conservative Christians need to be doing in America today. Awesome. And a branch of the SBC, the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission accepts funding from groups like the Fetzer Institute, which states support for the LGBT community and the Democracy Fund, which issued a statement, decrying the overturn of Roe v. Wade, according to reporting by Megan Basham. So what should Christians think about SBC accepting funding from groups with anti-Christian values? I think that we should be outraged by it, quite frankly.

It's really inappropriate that the essentially public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention is accepting these funds from such anti-Christian organizations. I mean, there's no such thing as a free lunch. Money never comes without strings attached. So why are they giving, why are these anti-Christian organizations giving money to entities like the ERLC? well, it's to try to subvert them and to move them in a leftward direction. And Megan's book, Shepherds for Sale, shows that at other organizations, not just the ERLC.

But there was a vote this year at the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting to begin to disband the ERLC. That would take also a two-year process. That vote did fail, but there was a surprising amount of support for it, maybe 35, 40%, which shows that the ERLC has a real issue, an issue in leadership, an issue in priorities, an issue in the money that's accepting. And I think they need to, particularly the board of trustees there, they need to exercise controlling, reshape this organization back into something that actually defends conservative Christian commitments in the public square. What obstacles does that effort to disband the ERLSC face? Well, the way that that would work is, you know, we would have to vote two years in a row on a motion to disband it, and they would have to get a 50% threshold vote each time.

And, you know, quite frankly, my position is not that I want to see the ERLC disbanded. I want to see it led by an unapologetic, you know, conservative, courageous Southern Baptist who wants to actually defend what Southern Baptists believe in the Public Square advanced at amongst Congress and the executive branch. And that's just not what we've had at the ERLC for really over a decade now. And so I think that, you know, I'm not sure if there will be another motion to try to disband it, shut it down again. But I think that there is going to be continued work to put pressure on the board of trustees there and on the leadership to get it to come back in line with Southern Baptist and conservative Christian interests. Why do you think the leadership of the ERLC has swayed so far from Christian values?

Yeah, well, so it was previously run by this guy, Russell Moore, and he was a big never-trumper. And, you know, one of the things just might be the influence of being here in Washington, D.C., under what you could call sort of the progressive elite gaze. I lived in work in Washington, D.C. for 10 years. It takes a lot of work to continue to hold to your principles in a liberal city, in a liberal town, you know, in the center of the swamp when everybody else is trying to move you to the left

and tell you that those, you know, those Bible thumping, gun-toting conservatives out there in Alabama and Mississippi are backwards and you don't want to be like them. And so I think that's a part of it. And also I just think that Russell Moore's sensibilities and his trajectory is pretty evident Now he's at Christianity today.

It's becoming increasingly liberal. And Brent Leatherwood, the current leadership, just sort of has those same, I think, cultured elite sensibilities. He seems to care more about what, like, the New York Times might say about him than what your, again, average, you know, Southern Baptist working class individual might say about him. So I'd say it's a, what's the word I'm looking for? There's just the priorities are not aligned.

Would you say the same kind of misaligned priorities, are at play with the women pastors issues with what Southern Baptist in America really want? Yeah, I think so. Again, there's this, so this is a dynamic that's at play in almost like every institution, every organization, every denomination that the leadership class over time just becomes more liberal than the constituency. I mean, you see this here in Washington, D.C., you know, every day that they're voting on something in Congress. And so it takes a lot of work to make sure that your leadership class, your elites continue to represent the interests of the constituency that they serve and then they're not being co-opted by sort of broader interest or leftist interest in

sort of the progressive milieu of America right now. And so I think that's the case, right? I think that there's been a lot of leadership in the Southern Baptist Convention that has wanted to just make us look friendly. And they think that if we draw this hard line on saying that women can't be pastors, that somehow that looks mean to the world. But again, the reality is, I think scripture is very clear on that point. And I want to side with God's word against the world and not with the world against God's word. And I don't care if the world's going to call me mean about that if I'm doing the right thing and, of course, trying to communicate it in a clear and helpful fashion. After that vote did not get the majority necessary. What do you

think is the best course of action going forward on that issue? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't want to tip too much of our hands here in terms of what the conservatives are trying to do. But I will say this that the opponents of it said within the Southern Baptist Convention that the quote-unquote system worked, that the system for removing churches that are operating outside of our statement of faith works just fine. But the reality is it doesn't. Again, we have hundreds of churches operating outside of our statement of faith on this. And we did remove one of them this year at our convention, but that's one out of hundreds. So one option could be to try to force this one committee to deal with hundreds at a time and bring up all those for a vote, that'll be very

lengthy. That'll be a lot of business, but it's important business. And we'll see if they want to do that. Now, if they don't want to do that, then that kind of shows us that the system doesn't work. And maybe we need to go back to doing something like trying to propose an amendment again. And you founded the Center for Baptist Leadership. What need does that fill in the SBC? Sure, yeah. The Center for Baptist Leadership exists to cultivate courageous and uncompromising Baptist leadership for the 21st century. And one of the main needs that it seeks to fill is to ensure that the Southern Baptist Convention, as the largest Protestant denomination in America, does not become liberal, go woke, become subverted and infiltrated by the progressives,

which is happening all across so many institutions in America right now. I mean, just look at what's happened with our Ivy League's, right? I mean, the absolute disaster, but then, of course, look more sort of close to home in terms of of Christian denominations in America, and all the mainline Protestant denominations have gone incredibly liberal. And you go by their churches, and they have the Black Lives Matter, and the trans flag, and the rainbow pride flag. And that's not a church anymore, right?

And so I am seriously concerned that that could be the future of the Southern Baptist Convention if we don't begin dealing with some of these issues now. And so the Center for Baptist leadership in many ways, I view it as sort of like a down payment for the future. I want us, I want my kids, my three boys to be able to go to a Southern Baptist church when they grow up and know that they're going to hear the true gospel and know that the Bible is going to be believed and taught. And so in political terms, because we're here in Washington, D.C., I've said that the Center for Baptist Leadership is sort of like a freedom caucus for the Southern Baptist Convention.

What are your biggest concerns of the things that your group is most interested in fighting against to prevent woke ideology from getting into the Southern Baptist Convention? Yeah, so again, the egalitarianism is a major point of concern. It's one of our top issues, and we'll continue to be. Another one, too, this is interesting. It's maybe not as flashy as some of the other ones, but financial transparency is a major issue. So the Southern Baptist Convention has these different entities within it, right?

We have the International Missions Board, which is the largest mission-sending agency in the world. They have millions and millions of dollars. We have the North American Mission Board, which plants churches and does evangelism on the American continent. They have hundreds of millions of dollars. We have six seminaries. And we really, the Southern Baptist churches don't have much clarity on how they're tied dollars that they send to fund these programs for the sake of planting churches, sending missionaries, spreading the gospel, and then training pastors and future Baptist leaders at our seminaries are being used. And so we want to get more financial transparency from these organizations.

And that's just good government. You know, and there's this saying that some people have been working on this issue. I've said that Planned Parenthood is actually more financially transparent than some of the Southern Baptist organizations. And that really shouldn't be. So fighting egalitarianism, fighting positively for financial transparency. And then really fighting, again, against the incursion of, like, critical race, DEI compromise on LGBT issues and even on issues like radical climate change agenda. We've had people come to Southern Baptist seminaries like Southeastern Seminary in North Carolina

talking about how Christians need to pay for carbon credits to sort of atone for their climate sins, which is just ridiculous. And so we, again, we want to help cultivate a future sort of class of leaders in the Southern Baptist Convention who won't be influenced and swayed by these new progressive ideologies, but we'll just stand on God's word and teach that and preach that. And you said you don't support disbanding the ERLSC necessarily. So what is the Center for Baptist Leadership's solution to the progressive ideas that are starting to make way? Yeah. So the solution is really, it's exercising the proper oversight and authority over the ERLC.

So the ERLC has a board of trustees. So Brent Leatherwood, who heads it, he reports this board of trustees. That board of trustees is appointed through a downstream process from the president of the Southern Baptist Convention. So we have a new president now. His name is Clint Presley, and I think he's significantly more conservative than the last six years of presidents that we had. So we are going to be advocating for, you know, Clint Presley to appoint strong conservatives to serve as the trustees at the ERLC, who will hold Brent Leatherwood accountable for the operations of the ERLC. And so really, if you have sort of a couple years of getting better people on the board there,

that can hold them accountable and change the direction there, that's sort of the way you would work through the process. But then also I think that Southern Baptist just need to be made more aware of what's going on at the ERLC, just through education and raising awareness, getting this information out. Megan's book will be a huge piece of that. We had Megan Basham come up and speak. at our lunch event at the Southern Baptist Convention annual meeting with Center for Baptist Leadership and Founders Ministries.

And people there, they did not know that the ERLC was taking this money. So sort of it's an issue campaign, raising awareness, and then fighting for that good governance over the ELC. Is there anything that Baptist at home who aren't going to the convention can do to fight this kind of thing? Well, they need to come to the convention, right? So I think that this is fascinating. you know, it's in some ways it's sort of, it's political in the sense, like small P political,

in the sense that every year Southern Baptist get together and every church can send voters between two to 12, depending on how much money they give to the Southern Baptist Convention, but smaller churches actually can usually send more voters than they think they can. But over the last, you know, a few decades now, many churches have sort of disengaged from sending their, what we call the messengers, to come. And so one of the things that we really want to sort of raise awareness, of it, the Center for Baptist Leadership, is the responsibility of churches to exercise the stewardship of the Southern Baptist Convention. It's different from other denominations, right?

It doesn't work like that for the Catholics. It doesn't work like that for the Presbyterians, but Baptists are really a democratic religion. And as it applies to the political process in America, if you don't show up and vote, you don't have a say. So we want to see churches re-engage the Southern Baptist Convention and come out to make sure you're there at our annual meeting. And additionally, just to get smart on the issues, check out Center for Baptist Leadership and other organizations that are doing good work like Conservative Baptist Network, Danbury Institute, founders, ministries, Christ overall, I just listed off a few. But get involved, get informed, and tell your pastor, we need to be there.

What are your thoughts on the Methodist churches or denominations' recent stance on the LGBT agenda? And does that make you nervous at all for just Christianity in general? Well, yeah, look, I mean, the sexual revolution has no breaks, right? And today it's the adopting, you know, pro-LGB acceptance and what's next, right? And so it does make me concerned. I'd say it's a note from a possible ghost of the SPC future, you know, coming back and telling us what we might look like. And, you know, once you start compromising with the cultural revolution, the sexual revolution,

you're just going to lose the gospel. You're going to lose the creation. order. Genesis 1, 27 and 28, male and female, he created them. And attacks on marriage, you know, attacks on the biological nature of men and women is really, it's an attack on God's creation order. And so if you don't, if you don't hold the line on women's pastors, if you won't hold the line on being homosexual affirming, if you won't hold the line against transgenderism and preferred pronouns, then essentially you just look like the world on these issues. And the church is called to be distinct, to be salt and light, and to preach the goodness of

both the gospel of Jesus Christ and God's creation order. So I am concerned, but I'm also hopeful. I think people are waking up. So, well, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me on. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with William Wolfe from the Center for Baptist Leadership. Be sure to check out our evening show right here in this podcast feed, where we bring you the top news of the day.

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