The Daily Signal - COVID-19 Uncovers 'Fundamental Flaws' of EU, Expert Says

Episode Date: April 27, 2020

The coronavirus has left many European leaders questioning the future of the EU. Former Prime Minister of Italy Enrico Letta recently told The Guardian that “the communitarian spirit of Europe is weaker today than 10 years ago.”  Nile Gardiner, former adviser to Lady Thatcher and director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom at The Heritage Foundation, joins The Daily Signal Podcast to explain what COVID-19 may mean for the future of the EU.  Gardiner also addresses the possibility that America may work alongside Great Britain and other European nations to hold China accountable for the coronavirus. Listen to the podcast below or read the lightly edited transcript. Also on today's show: We read your letters to the editor. Church all across D.C. are launching a week of 24/7 strategic prayer for America from April 27 - May 4. Find out more at AwakenDC.com. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, April 27th. I'm Robert Blewey. And I'm Virginia Allen. On today's show, we talk with Nile Gardner, former advisor to Lady Thatcher and director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom at the Heritage Foundation. Nile offers his insights on the state of the European Union and how COVID-19 might lead to more European nations seeking to leave the EU. We also share your letters to the editor and a good news story about how churches are

Across America are uniting in prayer during COVID-19 and how you and your church can get involved. Before we get to today's show, we want to tell you about the most popular resource on the Heritage Foundation website, the guide to the Constitution. More than 100 scholars have contributed to create unique line-by-line analysis of our Constitution. The guide is intended to provide a brief and accurate explanation of each clause of the Constitution as envisioned by the framers and applied in contemporary law. If you want to gain a deeper understanding of our founding document, visit heritage.org slash constitution or simply search for heritage guide to the constitution. Now stay tuned for today's show coming up next.

I am joined by Nile Gardner, former advisor to Lady Thatcher and director of the Market Thatcher Center for Freedom at the Heritage Foundation. Nile, thank you so much for being here. It's my pleasure. Great to be here. Thank you. Europe has been hit very hard by the coronavirus. We've specifically seen this in Spain and Italy and even Germany and France, that they're really suffering from a tremendous amount of cases and that their hospitals are extremely burdened. And this is causing many Europeans and leaders within Europe to really express concerns that the European Union is in an extremely fragile state right now. And I would like to get your response to something the former prime minister of Italy, Enrico Leta said recently.

He told the Guardian that the European Union is facing a crisis that is different from previous crises. And he also said that the communitarian spirit of Europe is weaker today than 10 years ago. Nile, do you think that these statements are accurate? Yes, I think that statement actually is a very accurate reflection of the current. State of affairs in Europe and in particular the EU. I do think the EU is facing a very significant crisis at the moment. Its response to the COVID-19 pandemic has been extremely weak, very divided. It has responded, I think, in a very ineffective fashion to what is the biggest crisis in European history since, World War II. And I think there is a sense across Europe that the European Union has handled

the pandemic very badly. And there's a lot of disillusionment, I think, among many EU member states with the current direction of the European Union, its lack of organization, the huge divisions within the EU, and the fact that the EU in responding to this pandemic has been almost irrelevant, actually. If you look at the European response to COVID-19, it's been overwhelmingly done at the nation-state level. And I think the pandemic has demonstrated the fact that, you know, at times of crisis, I mean, the EU, frankly, becomes almost an irrelevance. And it's really the nation-states and the national leaders who have stepped forward. in order to respond here.

So what should have the EU done instead? I mean, are there actions that they could have taken to really early on mitigate the spread of the virus? Well, I think that, firstly, my own view is that Europe is better off when nation states and national leaders actually make the big decisions. And that, of course, was so fundamentally important for the British people in their decision to, leave the European Union. And so I'm always, I've always been a believer in, in the nation state,

in self-determination and national sovereignty. And I think during this crisis, you have seen nation states stepping forward to respond to the crisis. But in terms of what the EU could have potentially done better, as a collective body, I think you could have seen a greater EU action on a number of fronts, starting, of course, with the economic response. I think the overall economic response from the European Union has been very weak. It's also exposed the tremendous divisions between North and South within the EU. The North is wealthier. The South is poorer. And, you know, the reality is when you have a collection of what is now 27 member states in the European Union, it's very hard for all of these countries to come to.

together and make common collective agreements. And that, I think, is at the heart of the fundamental flaws of the European project. At the end of the day, nation states are not going to always agree with each other. And you've seen that in terms of the, especially the economic response to the crisis. And I think that the EU's response in terms of providing financial support has been extremely slow and it has been, I think, a very weak overall response. I think, I think secondly as well, in terms of the medical response and the EU's ability to be able to help individual countries in terms of directly dealing with the pandemic itself, I think the EU response has been very

poor. There's been a lack of coordination. And at the end of the day, I think that, you know, most national governments in Europe have just gone ahead and implemented their own responses. And there's no confidence, I think, across the EU that the European Union itself is able to play a constructive, positive, overarching role in terms of addressing the pandemic. The EU is just in a state of complete disarray, frankly, when it comes to dealing with this crisis. and you have seen, you know, some national leaders, individual European countries who have, you know, stepped up to the plate and have offered, you know,

far stronger leadership than the European Union. And what are the European people saying? Are they really blaming the EU for a lot of the issues that we're seeing across Europe during the coronavirus? I think the coronavirus pandemic certainly has enhanced widespread skepticism within the European Union about the future of the EU. And I do think that there is a lot of disillusionment across the EU with the current state of the European Union. And when only has to look at countries such as Italy, a very good example here where there's rising Euroscepticism.

there is rising resentment of the European Union. And I think that in the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, you are going to see an increase in Eurosceptic sentiment across the European Union. Increasing, I think, that many European citizens will take the view that the EU is incompetent, useless in some respects. unhelpful. And I think that, you know, the unhappiness that already existed with the European Union

across many parts of Europe will only be enhanced and increased in the wake of this pandemic. So yes, I'd expect to see public dissolution with the European Union rising significantly in the wake of this crisis. So given that rise, as Europeans really do become more and more disillusion with the European Union, Do you think that this will be, you know, the total undoing of the EU or that maybe a few countries will follow Britain and decide that they're, you know, going to move forward with leaving the European Union? Yeah, I think that the European Union is a hugely artificial construct. It's a massive experiment that has never been implemented before in history and has never succeeded. and I think that, you know, the European project really tramples upon the principles of sovereignty and self-determination, the principles of liberty and freedom that are so fundamentally important here.

The EU has evolved into a highly centralised super state and which exerts a great deal of power and control over individual European countries. countries. And, you know, the British people back in 2016 decided that they had had enough of membership of the EU and they voted to leave the European Union in the 2016 referendum. I suspect that if you had similar referenda held across the EU over the coming years, you could well see European publics voting with their feet with regard to the EU. memberships. But without a doubt, I think the European Union elites are going to try and preserve the status quo. European governments will resist the idea of holding British-style referendants. But you are going to see, I think, increasing anti-EU sentiment across many parts of the European

Union. I'm in no doubt that in the course of the next decade, the next two decades, you will see some European countries deciding to leave the European Union and following the British lead. After all, I think Brexit is a massive game changer for Europe. And if Brexit is a big success, and I think it will be a tremendous success, I think that other European countries may follow Britain's lead. And so I think the impact of the coronavirus crisis in Europe will be one of just several big factors that will bring about possible change in Europe. But I do think that the tide is turning against this idea of a European superstate and that the EU will look very different in the course of the next 10 to 20 years

compared to what it is today. And I do think the EU will be significantly smaller than it is today. and you will see some European countries saying that they want to reassert their sovereignty and self-determination and retake control of their own laws, their own borders, their trade policy, their courts, etc. And so I think that Europe is going to look pretty different in 2040 compared to 2020 today. You mentioned borders, and I know that's something that you have spoken. and about on the news that, you know, right now we're seeing so many countries across the EU close borders for safety because of COVID-19. But do you think that this could lead to permanently

some European nations deciding, you know, we don't want to have this kind of permanent open border situation? Yeah, I think that the COVID-19 pandemic and the crisis that has ensued, certainly will result in the end of the open borders approach in Europe. I don't see how Europe can continue with open borders approach post the pandemic. What we have seen during the course of the last few weeks, as the pandemic has tightened its grip on Europe, has been the reintroduction of border controls by almost every single EU member state, you have seen external border controls now implemented for the entire European Union.

And I expect that, you know, the old outdated open borders mentality champion by figures such as Angela Merkel, Emmanuel Macron, for example, that I think will be increasingly thrown out of the window. And I expect that the COVID-19 pandemic could result in the not only the end of the open borders approach, but also in the end of the Schengen Agreement, which is signed between 26 European countries, including 22 EU member states, are part of that. And Schengen basically is an open borders agreement among those countries. And I don't see how Schengen can survive, actually, what we have seen over the last few weeks. and the border controls that are being reintroduced now by practically every European country. I think a lot of those border controls are going to stay in place long after this pandemic is over.

Now, England has had very high numbers of cases, but do you think that maybe they have been, you know, more able to quickly respond and to handle the situation now that Brexit has passed and they're kind of no longer formally a part of the EU? Yeah, that's a very good question. I think the UK, like most of the major European countries, have faced a huge, has faced a huge challenge with regard to dealing with the coronavirus pandemic. And the UK is no different to the rest of Europe and having to deal with this. I would say that in the long run, Britain's decision to live. the European Union will help protect the United Kingdom. At the moment, the UK is still part of the EU single market and single customs union. And so, you know, the UK is still part and parcel of the big structures of the European Union,

even though it has left the EU officially. The biggest change actually takes place at the end of this year when the transition period ends and Britain exits the customs union and single market. And that will mean that Brexit is implemented in its entirety. I think in the long run, the UK as a truly sovereign nation that is fully able to control its own borders, shape its own laws, shape its own trading policy, and decide who comes into the UK to work and live. I think that will provide additional protection for the United Kingdom.

I think right now, the UK is in the same boat as the rest of Europe. But the fact that it has left the European Union is not in any way a disadvantage for the UK. I would argue that Brexit will ultimately greatly strengthen Britain's security. safety and its overall prosperity in the coming decades. I do think Brexit is a great momentous decision by the British people. It's the right decision. And it will definitely be a decision that will work to the interests of the British people in the years and decades to come.

And could you speak a little bit to the leadership of Prime Minister Boris Johnson and during this time, of course, he did have coronavirus himself and has since pretty much fully recovered. Are there lessons that other European leaders should really be taking from Prime Minister Johnson? Yeah, I think, you know, Boris Johnson's being a tremendous leader, and I've had the opportunity to meet with Boris Johnson on several occasions. He's a very impressive figure.

He's a very charismatic leader. and he also has personally, of course, directly faced the coronavirus pandemic himself. I mean, he was a place in an intensive care unit in hospital just a couple of weeks ago. It was a life and death situation for the Prime Minister. He came through that. And I think that he really is a tremendous inspiration for the British people who look up to the Prime Minister. He's someone who certainly has a Churchillian spirit about him. He has a relentancy, optimistic spirit about him.

And I do think Boris Johnson is by far the strongest, most effective leader in Europe today. And he's somebody who I think has the right kind of inspiring leadership qualities that the UK needs at this time. and I think out of all the European leaders, I'm Boris Johnson, is by far the most effective today. Now, in some parts of America, we are beginning to see that businesses are opening back up, like in Georgia and South Carolina, for example. Are we seeing that begin to happen across Europe at all? Are European leaders talking about dates when the economy might restart there

and people might be able to go back to work? Yes, in fact, every single European government is working on an exit timetable here for restarting their economies. So an exit timet table for their lockdowns. And it's interesting that this is not being decided at the European Union level. It's being decided at the national capital level. And that's very significant as well. the EU is not making decisions on this. Individual European governments are making their own decisions about when to reopen their economies.

And already, countries such as Germany, for example, are taking significant steps towards reopening. I think you are going to see a different pace taken by different European countries. So Germany will move ahead of, say, France, for example. Emmanuel Macron has been far more cautious about reopening the French economy. and I expect the Germans will be fully reopened a long time before the French, for example. With regard to the UK, the British government hasn't made a decision yet, but I think we're going to see a gradual reopening of European economies over the course of the next few months, basically. And every country will have its own pace.

every country will make its own decision based upon the level of the virus threat and the death rates and the levels of infection. And so I think that you are going to see wide variations across Europe in the next two or three or four months. And Nile, both in America and Europe, people are beginning to talk about the need to hold China accountable for COVID-19. Do you think that we might see America working alongside England or other European countries to somehow reprimand China? Yeah, I think that's a great point because I think the COVID-19 pandemic has been a huge wake-up call for Europe with regard to the reality of dealing with China. The virus originated in China.

The Chinese government attempted in its early stages to cover up the the spread of the virus. China's actions with regard to dealing with the coronavirus have been absolutely disgraceful. There's been a complete lack of transparency in cooperation from China. And I think that there's a lot of unhappiness across Europe with China's actions. And now you see China trying to blame the United States in the West for the virus, which is absolutely stunning to see China doing this. And I think you're going to see a big, significant reaction across Europe against China in the wake of the pandemic. And I think the biggest example of that will be on the 5G front. China's biggest telecommunications company, Huawei, has made huge inroads

into Europe in the last two decades. I think you're going to see a lot of, you. European governments taking Huawei out of their planned 5G networks. And I think the UK will be a prime example of that. Earlier this year, the British government agreed to allow Huawei a 35% stake in the development of 5G in Britain. I think the British government is likely to reverse course and take Huawei out of the UK telecommunications networks over the course of the next couple of years or so. And I expect many other European governments are going to follow Britain's lead here. But it's no longer going to be business as usual, as the British Foreign Secretary, Dominic Raab said recently with regard to China. China is increasingly going to be viewed as an adversary by Europe.

And you are going to see, I think, a much tougher stance being taken by not only the UK, but many European governments against China in the coming years. Now it's going to be interesting to see how this all full. as you say in the coming years. We really appreciate your time today and your expertise and weighing in on this issue. It's my pleasure. Thank you very much. It's our priority at the Daily Signal to keep you informed during the coronavirus pandemic. Here's an important message from the White House Coronavirus Task Force. Taking care of your mental health is critically important as we stay indoors more often. It's important that people get enough sleep because we know sleep promotes mental health. It's important

that you get exercise when you can while still engaging in proper social distancing. And most importantly, seek help if you need it. Telehealth services are available and call a friend if you just need someone to talk to. Now more than ever, we want you to pay attention to your mental health. Thanks for sending us your letters to the editor. Each Monday, we feature our favorites on this show and in the Daily Signals Morning Bell email newsletter. Virginia, who's up first? In response to Dennis Prager's article entitled,

If half the country's COVID-19 deaths were in Montana, would New York shut down? Richard Hubert writes, Dennis raises many good points, as usual. I have heard others say that government officials listened far too much to doctors and did not discuss enough or at all with economists or sociologists when making their copycat decisions to shut down their city or state. the impact from the shutdowns goes far beyond medical issues. And in response to Virginia's podcast interview with former Congressman J.C. Watts, a member of the National Coronavirus Recovery Commission,

Gil Guttnick of Rochester, Minnesota, writes, Wonderful to hear J.C. Watts. Also, thanks to Heritage for working on a plan to get America back to work. We don't need to know how many latex gloves were shipped to Michigan today. We need to know that there is a light at the end of this dark tunnel. Your letter can be featured on next week's show. Send us an email at Letters at DailySignal.com. Are you looking for quick conservative policy solutions to current issues?

Sign up for Heritage's weekly newsletter, The Agenda. In the agenda, you will learn what issues Heritage Scholars on Capitol Hill are working on, what position conservatives are taking, and links to our in-depth research. The agenda also provides information on important events happening here at Heritage that you can watch online as well as media interviews from our experts. Sign up for the agenda on heritage.org today. Virginia, we love starting the week with a good news story. What do you have to share with us today?

Thanks so much, Rob. Well, many of you might remember that President Trump called a national day of prayer on March 15th to pray for all those affected by COVID-19 and for America's response to the crisis. We know that communities and churches all over America have continued to pray for an end to the virus and that we might see our nation recover both medically and economically. Well, this week, churches all across your nation's capital and the surrounding area are launching a week of strategic 24-7 prayer. Take a listen. From April 27th to May 4th.

We are calling on the followers of Jesus in our city to join together for a week of 24-7 prayer. Believers from different churches. different streams, different denominations, united around our common allegiance to Jesus, and around three common goals. First, a swift end to the coronavirus pandemic. That God would intervene in a supernatural way to stop its spread and end its advance.

Second, healing for all those who are affected. Physically, mentally, emotionally, livelihoods lost. We're asking God to release his healing power. over our city. And third, perhaps most importantly, that God would use this crisis as a catalyst for a mass awakening to the name of Jesus. That people would turn to him and remember. We need a savior. In these historic times, we are asking God for a historic revival in our city. It's time for God's people to come together at one, one body, one people, one faith, and one call to pray to ask to seek his faith that his kingdom will come here on earth as it is in heaven

even if you don't live in the dc area i really want to encourage all of our listeners to consider getting involved and getting your own church involved if you want to learn more you can visit awaken dc.com all the information is there and you can learn how you can also sign up for prayer slots Virginia, thanks so much for bringing us that story. We're going to leave it there for today. You can find the Daily Signal podcast on the Rurkishay Audio Network. All of our shows can be found at daily signal.com slash podcasts. You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or your favorite podcast app.

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