The Daily Signal - ‘Egregiously Obvious’ That Biden Admin Violated First Amendment Rights, Tech Policy Expert Says

Episode Date: August 10, 2023

Rep. Jim Jordan, R-Ohio, recently tweeted a lengthy thread in hopes of exposing Americans to the so-called Facebook Files.  Using all capital letters, Jordan wrote July 27: “THE FACEBOOK FILES, PART 1: SMOKING-GUN DOCS PROVE FACEBOOK CENSORED AMERICANS BECAUSE OF BIDEN WHITE HOUSE PRESSURE.” Jordan, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, also has tweeted about other parts of the “Facebook Files.” Asked by The Daily Signal what the most shocking discovery is so far, Jake Denton, research associate in The Heritage Foundation’s Tech Policy Center, replies that “none of this really came as a surprise, necessarily.” (The Daily Signal is The Heritage Foundation’s news outlet.) “It’s egregiously obvious they were violating our First Amendment rights,” Denton says of the Biden administration, adding: There’s this huge interplay collusion between Big Tech and big government, and then a week later, no one’s talking about it. And I think that the shock factor has gone away, because we just keep seeing it happen. If you’re looking for one element of the [document] drops that kind of stand out from all of them, [it] is the correspondence trying to take down a meme, which kind of just shows you the comedic scale that this has reached, where you have government employees whose daily job is to scroll through Facebook [and] Twitter and critique a meme’s role in the information environment.Mark Zuckerberg heads Meta, parent company of Facebook. Entrepreneur Elon Musk, who bought Twitter in October, recently renamed it X. Denton joins today’s episode of “The Daily Signal Podcast” to discuss the secrets exposed by the “Facebook Files,” why Americans should be concerned, and what the revelations say about the relationship between social media companies and the Biden administration. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's reached the scale that I just, I don't think a lot of people really realize that even the most inconsequential comment you leave under your grandmother's post or the meme that you send to a friend could be scrutinized by a bureaucrat in Washington and result in your deplatforming and in many ways the violation of your constitutionally protected rights. This is the Daily Signal podcast for Thursday, August 10th. I'm Samantha Sherris. And that was Jake Denton. associate in the Heritage Foundation's Tech Policy Center. Jake is joining today's show to break down the so-called Facebook files, why Americans should be concerned about them and much more.

We'll get to my conversation with Jake right after this. Are you looking for an easy and entertaining way to keep up with the news you care about? The Daily Signal and Heritage Foundation YouTube channels offer interviews with policy experts on the most critical issues and debates America is facing today, as well as short explainer videos that break down complex issues and documentaries that dive deep into the way its policy actually impacts people. Go ahead and subscribe to both the Daily Signal and Heritage Foundation YouTube channels today. You can search for either on your YouTube app or visit YouTube.com slash heritage foundation and YouTube.com slash daily signal. Jake Dent is joining today's episode of the Daily Signal podcast. Jake is a research associate in the Heritage Foundation's Tech Policy Center. Jake, thanks for joining us.

Absolutely. Thanks for having me. So by now, many of our audience members probably are aware of the so-called Twitter files, which came to light last December. More recently, though, so-called Facebook files have emerged. On July 27th, Republican Representative Jim Jordan of Ohio, who is Chairman, of the House Judiciary Committee, tweeted the Facebook files part one. Smoking gun docks prove Facebook censored Americans because of Biden White House pressure. Just last week, as we reported on our top news show, Fox News uncovered new Facebook files showing the White House colluded with the social media company to target users who were hesitant about or opposed to COVID-19 vaccines. Jake, can you tell us a little bit more?

more about, you know, these so-called Facebook files and what they've exposed. Yeah, you know, even if you haven't been following the drops, this likely sounds very familiar to you because it's kind of following the exact same progression as every other file dump we've had over the last two or so years about censorship. And, you know, this instance is with Facebook. So there's a different cast of characters. There's different names at both the company side and within the White House that are doing these kind of correspondence. the one familiar character is Elvis Chan from Facebook files and Twitter files. A little bit of interplay there.

But really aside from kind of the setting, it's largely a remake of the Twitter files and the Missouri v. Biden discovery files that we got during that case. Obviously, that decision came out on the 4th of July. But it's really just kind of taking you through a set of emails, kind of correspondence between government and big tech, of, you know, what are we flagging? what are we taking down? And it really just shows that it's far broader, far bigger operation than I think we've given it credit for.

You know, Twitter files were kind of presented as this like standalone occurrence. Missouri v. Biden was presented as this standalone thing. And every time we get another smoking gun, it becomes more obvious that this is just kind of a bigger operation, a bigger scheme to control speech. So I think as of this recording, there have been four parts of the first. Facebook files so far. Who knows if there are more coming? What has been the most shocking discovery outcome from these files that you have seen so far? Yeah, you know, none of this really came as a surprise necessarily. I think a lot of us have been desensitized to this kind of

series of events where we get a document drop. It's egregiously obvious. They were violating our First Amendment rights. There's this huge interplay collusion between big tech and big government. And then a week later, like, no one's talking about it. And I think that the shock factor has gone away because we just keep seeing it happen. If you're looking for one element of the drops that kind of stand out from all of them is the correspondence trying to take down a meme, which kind of just shows you the comedic scale that this has reached, where you have government employees whose day job is to scroll through Facebook, Twitter, and critique a meme's role in the information environment. Is it an authentic representation of a fact pattern? Is it harmful? If it's harmful, then is it misinformation, malinformation, disinformation?

And then they go and send the ticket to Facebook or Twitter. And it's reached the scale that I just, I don't think a lot of people really realize that even the most inconsequential comment you leave under your grandmother's post or the meme that you send to a friend could be scrutinized by a bureaucrat in Washington and result and you're deplatforming, and in many ways, the violation of your constitutionally protected rights. And so I think that's the shocking element is that everything is being scrutinized. It's not just speech that could be flagged for a terrorist watch list or for election misinformation. It's jokes.

So it's getting pretty crazy out there. Yeah, no, definitely. And as we're learning more about what's reportedly, I should say, going on. behind the scenes. Do you think this is an ongoing problem with Facebook? Obviously, Twitter has, you know, shake up with Elon Musk, but at Facebook, do you think this is still an ongoing issue? And how can Americans act, I guess, on Facebook? Like, what should they be aware of? Yeah, you know, I think it's important not to view the kind of file drop environment we find ourselves in as the end-all-be-all. For every one disclosed email that we see, there's a million that we never do.

And so, you know, there's a temptation, I think, to view the Facebook files, just like the Twitter files, through the lens of a particular news cycle like COVID. And so because it's framed around COVID or the Biden laptop or whatever it is, we just view it as like a particular reaction to a particular news topic. But this is an ongoing battle that we're facing at even the most inconsequential tech companies. Even if you're not receiving direct correspondence from the government, you're being pushed by your peers in Silicon Valley to conform to. this kind of broader culture of censorship. And so you see companies even self-imposing these same types of restrictions as kind of like a downstream effect of what these players who are being shaped by government are doing. And so, you know, whether it's ongoing at this current scale we saw in the Facebook file still at Facebook, kind of tough to say because there's no transparency.

You know, there's from the Facebook file is a case where the FBI just lied about meeting with Facebook about the Hunter Biden laptop. So you pretty much have to. assume the worst and be proven otherwise, right? So I think that's the struggle here is wherever your imagination can take you in terms of the scale of the censorship and the kind of horrific nature of narrative control is probably what's going on and then look for evidence, you know, make them prove that it's not because they've lost any trust that we could give them. And just along the same lines of, you know, having this trust in both social media companies and the government. What are these files, these revelations that we've been seeing come out through the Facebook files

say about social media companies and the current administration? I just think they're getting even more comfortable, right? I think the public scrutiny is increasing and the posturing on Capitol Hill or at the White House is, you know, making it sound more intense and, you know, we're going to take them on. But the way in which they go about this, where it's just open channels of communities. communication, talking and open about censoring the American people. It's very clear that they have no fear about, you know, a hammer dropping on them. And so I think what it really shows is that most of the critique in Washington of big tech is theatrical. They're just kind of giving the American people entertainment. You know, you tune in for the latest hearing with CEO of this company, but it amounts to nothing. The reason we keep getting file drops is because they can just keep sending these emails, knowing that there is no, you know, fear of actually having. having real action taken against them. And so I think the biggest sign that nothing will happen is the fact that we keep getting

these, right? If they were really fearful of someone doing something about their censorship or their, you know, violation of our rights, they would be corresponding on encrypted messaging apps like signal. They were trying to hide their evidence. These are tech savvy people, right? And so the fact that they're totally comfortable doing this out in the open tells you everything you need to know. Definitely.

And one thing I wanted to get your thoughts on, as we've been talking about, both the Facebook files and the Twitter files, you know, specifically more recently with the Facebook files, why Americans should be concerned about the Facebook files? You know, it kind of, you can almost lump everything all together with Facebook, Twitter, Missouri v. Biden. These are all one issue, right? These are just kind of like symptoms of a bigger disease. you think back to, you know, just a year or so ago where you had the formation momentarily of that disinformation governance board and Nina Jankowitz was going to come and like lead the the West's like battle to clean up the information space. And there was kind of this impression that after that failed, there would be no censorship and like everything was safe. Well, it just basically went on without her. And what the American people I think really need to

realize is that even something as inconsequential as censoring a meme has a huge ripple effect. Whether it's just this like silly post or your political speech that gets deplatformed, you might think of a small audience, but it results in all sorts of behavioral changes, whether that's you self-censoring in public as a result of being censored online. You think that now it's socially not acceptable for you to voice this opinion. You know, whether you're a big public figure and you're posting and you're making revenue, We see on X now, people are Twitter, X, right? Whatever you want to call it, are making income off of their political commentary, off of just their posting.

And so there's going to be this kind of protection element where you want to make sure your revenue stream comes through. People are going to start doing this as like a full-time job. And that self-censoring, that fear of that hammer dropping on you, not the company for violating your rights, but on the user for talking out of line, not abiding by those content rules. that's going to have increasingly heavy consequences. We always kind of fearmonger about the social credit score, and I think what's important to kind of understand is that it's being built around us. No one's just unified the scoring system, right?

You can be deplatformed from Twitter. You have a zero social credit score on Twitter. If you're not allowed to talk on there, you're gone. You know, you can be taken off of Uber, you know, that just means you can't operate on Uber. But eventually everything kind of merges together. you know, if you were censored or de-platformed on Facebook or Twitter, your boss is potentially going to type in your name and see that your account was suspended. And there's no presumption of innocence.

The big tech company decided you were in violation and you're not capable of being on Twitter. So why would you be capable of being in my workplace? And it's like that digital kind of consequence of your actions is going to increasingly impact your physical reality. and I think it's going to take us too long to probably pick up on that. The pain's going to have to feel real sharp before you realize that your online kind of interacts with the real world. Well, one thing that we've talked about before is TikTok and the dangers that the app poses. Do you think that people, after learning more about, you know,

Facebook files, Twitter files, will be more inclined to come off of the social media apps or will they kind of think, oh, whatever, you know, it's fine, I'm used to this sort of thing. I think we're facing a very similar battle when it comes to the addiction element. All these apps are terrible for you in various different reasons, right? I mean, there's no shortage of things to worry about, but the one thing that unites all of them is the addictive nature of their service. And, you know, whether it be infinite scroll or the color palette that they choose, all of these things result in increasing your screen time.

And, you know, even if you see something as shocking as like them deplatforming you for your political speech or stealing your data or, you know, any of these horrific things, pushing propaganda on you in the case of TikTok and, you know, some other applications as well, you still just log in every morning. And, you know, people can say that's crazy, but it's really no fault of your own. You were given an addictive substance, digital media, and you got hooked and there isn't an obvious detox path. If there isn't something that you can just go pick up off the shelf and get healthy again, this is like a lifestyle change that you have to undergo to just kind of get off of social media. And a lot of people just aren't able to do it. And it's not really their own fault. So in many ways, this just gets worse because you get desensitized and more comfortable to this reality.

And it affects your real world behavior too. If you're totally okay with logging in to Facebook where they control your speech and they control your behavior, just because you need that dopamine hit of scrolling through your friend's photos or whatever it is, it's going to change the way you behave in the real world. You might not realize it, but it does. And so in many ways, it's worse. As we get these dumps subconsciously or have accepted the premise from these files. This is horrible.

They censored, deplatformed everything, but I'm still going to log on tomorrow. And so it just gets bigger and bigger. And eventually, kind of the walls have been built around you. and you're living in Facebook's world, right? So it's definitely a concerning little bubble we find ourselves in. Yeah, definitely. As I mentioned earlier, Representative Jordan has been really active in exposing these Facebook files. When Congress returns from its recess, what, if anything, are you hoping they focus on regarding the Facebook files?

You know, I think I share the same fatigue of hearings and press conferences of the American people. Like, you can only turn on the TV and see them doing the same kind of circus so many times before you just go, are they ever going to do anything? And I think that's where we find ourselves now. Every time one of these comes out, we get a Fox News headline or a New York Times headline that reads smoking gun, like government censors Americans. And it's like we've been seeing this since 2016 and nothing's changed. I think after three smoking guns, you know, maybe you do something. But we're at the point where there's just like a pile of smoking guns in the corner. and everyone just pretends this new one is the only one that matters,

and then we do nothing, and another one comes along. And so I think it's long overdue to get like a legislative kind of solution to this, actually receiving a vote. Congressman Bishop put forward a proposal of that nature just a couple of weeks ago heading into this recess period that would allow the American people to sue the government official that basically asked for their censorship. That's kind of an interesting policy. solution. You have the Kaluad Act with Senator Schmidt. That's another kind of great approach to this

that stops that kind of relationship. But could we at least get a vote? Or could, like, can we just stop going through this routine of repeating the cycle and pretending that it's going to change this time? Because it's pretty obvious our strategy doesn't work. They're getting even more comfortable doing it. So at some point, we've got to just like vote or do something because we're some boldening them. Yeah. And in terms of accountability for either, you know, people at Facebook, the Biden administration, what would that look like to you? Well, I think the most obvious, you know, first step is going after the government employee official agency, whatever you want to, you know, put the crosshair on and go after them for that deplatforming, right? I mean, it's well established

at this point, no debate at all. We have the Missouri v. Biden case that that action of emailing a Facebook employee and going, hey, we're worried about this post. is a violation of the First Amendment, right? I mean, you can butter up the language as much as you'd like of saying, like, we would really, you know, be happy if you took this down or something as kind of inconspicuous as like, hey, just flagging this for you, no call to action at all. That's against the First Amendment.

You can't outsource the censorship. Anything that is, you know, constitutionally protected interaction between the government and the individual is also protected via a third party. They can't just contract out these constitutional violations. And so that isn't something revolutionary or new. We should go after them for that violation. We should punish them. And so start there.

And then there's obviously a role for the social media company to bear some responsibility here. They're not innocent. Yeah, the government leaned on them, but they broke. And in many ways, they were eager to. They were excited to get that email from the Biden White House and their favorite politician on Capitol Hill. And they went along with the game. And so they're just as guilty here, just kind of of a different crime.

And so we should go after the social media companies for, you know, their role in just nasty platforming people at sensitive times. You should have been able to read about the, you know, other perspective of the vaccine or of COVID and of the 2020 election, but you weren't able to. There's really no telling how much that impacted each individual's life. So it just keeps building, you know, it's like the cases, and the harm just stack on top of each other. The smoking and guns aren't in isolation, right?

They aren't just kind of separate instances. They increase that pain and that suffering and the societal consequence. So we can't just ignore the pile of evidence. We have to apply it. So no more hearings, press conferences, whatever. Just like do something, I think is probably the wish list for after recess. Well, Jake, any final thoughts before we go?

I think that, you know, the biggest takeaway is that things have not gotten better. You know, we have gotten the various file drops and things of that nature, and there's a temptation to view that as a thing of the past. It's actually something we're living through right now. And so when you receive the Twitter files, when you read through the Facebook files and Missouri v. Biden, understand that this is an ongoing battle. The solution hasn't actually been even presented, let alone implemented. So that censorship industrial complex, we all love to talk about, is alive and well. And it's affecting the way that you, interact online and it's affecting your day-to-day life. So don't view this as a thing of the past,

but it's something you're living through. Jake Dettin, thanks so much. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. And that's going to do it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to my interview with Jake Dettin of the Heritage Foundation. If you enjoyed our conversation, make sure you subscribe to the Daily Signal wherever you get your podcast. And help us reach even more listeners by leaving a five-star rating and review. We read our conversation. We read and appreciate all of your feedback. Thanks again for listening. Have a great day, and we'll be back with you all this afternoon for top news. The Daily Signal podcast is brought to by more than half a million members of the Heritage Foundation. Executive producers are Rob Louie and Kate Trinko.

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