The Daily Signal - Ep. 294: ‘Gosnell’ Filmmaker Shares Why This Story Had to Be Told

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

Ep. 294: ‘Gosnell’ Filmmaker Shares Why This Story Had to Be Told by Daily Signal News Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Wednesday, September 12th. I'm Kate Trinco. And I'm Daniel Davis. It's been eight years since the Gossnell House of Horrors came under the national spotlight, shocking many and providing a jolt of energy to the pro-life movement. Today we'll sit down with Anne McElhenney, the producer of a new film recounting the Gosnell episode. Plus, a school in Georgia is bringing back the paddle. Yes, the paddle for spanking students.

We'll discuss that and the questions surrounding Corporal Punishment and Insomnia. school. But first, we'll cover a few of the top headlines. Well, House Republicans have unveiled tax reform 2.0 this week in an effort to secure additional tax relief for Americans before the congressional term ends. The package includes three separate bills, which, among other things, would make the individual tax cuts from last year permanent. Last year's tax cuts gave permanent relief to businesses and temporary relief for individuals, but those individual cuts are currently set to expire in 2025. In addition to making those permanent, tax cuts 2.0 would introduce new simplified methods

of family saving and allow new businesses to write off more of their startup costs. In Shanksville, Pennsylvania on Tuesday, President Trump highlighted the heroism of the passengers on Flight 93 on 9-11. We're here to pay solemn tribute to the 40 passengers and crew members on Flight 93 who rose up, defied the enemy, took control of their destiny, and changed the course of history. Today we mourn their loss. We share their story and we commemorate their incredible valor. On September 11, 2001, a band of brave patriots turned the tide on our nation's enemies

and joined the immortal ranks of American heroes at this memorial on this sacred earth in the field beyond this wall and in the skies above our heads we remember the moment when America fought back former FBI officials Peter Strach and Lisa Page are coming under new scrutiny

On Monday, Congressman Mark Meadows of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee sent a letter to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein in which he referenced text messages between Stroke and Page from April 2017. Those texts had not previously been made public. In those messages, according to Meadows, Strach speaks of a media leak strategy with Page. Just one day after that message was sent, the Washington Post broke a news story about how Trump's campaign aide, Carter Page, was being surveilled. by the FBI. Meadows said that he held grave concerns regarding an apparent systemic culture of media leaking by high-ranking officials at the FBI and DOJ related to ongoing investigations. President Trump responded in a tweet saying, quote, new-strock page texts reveal media leak strategy, so terrible and nothing is being done at DOJ or FBI, but the world is watching

and they get it completely, end quote. Over a million must evacuate due to Hurricane Florence reports NPR, citing the Federal Emergency Management Agency. North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper, a Democrat, warned his state, which is likely to be hit hard, to take the threat seriously on Tuesday. Hurricane Florence will affect each and every one of you. This storm is a monster. It's big and it's vicious. It is an extremely dangerous, life-threatening, historic hurricane. He also said,

The waves and the wind this storm may bring is nothing like you've ever seen. Even if you've ridden out storms before, this one is different. Don't bet your life on riding out a monster. Well, as the economy continues to roar, small business optimism has hit an all-time high. According to a survey conducted by the National Federation of Independent Business, the Small Business Optimism Index jumped to 108.8 in the month of August, the highest ever in the survey's 45-year history. The previous record of 108 was set in 1983 under President Ronald Reagan. The Ninth Circuit strikes again. Americans for Prosperity Foundation,

which is affiliated with the Koch brothers, wanted to keep its top donors, private, including from the state of California, which demands that their names be disclosed to the state, which in turn says it will not make them public. Thanks to a 2016 ruling, Americans for Prosperity hadn't had to disclose its donors to the state of California. But in a ruling Tuesday, three judges from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, all of whom were appointed by either President Bill Clinton or President Barack Obama, said the organization must give the names of these donors to the state. of California. North Korea and the U.S. are planning a second summit between their heads of state, according to the military times. President Trump received a letter from North Korean leader Kim Jong-un requesting the meeting, and the planning is now in motion, though White House press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders says no plans have been finalized. She described the letter from Kim as, quote, very warm, very positive. Just last month, Trump canceled a planned visit to North Korea by his

Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, citing a lack of progress toward denuclearization. Next up, we'll talk to one of the filmmakers behind the new film, Gazznell. I'm Rob Blewey, editor-in-chief of The Daily Signal. And I'm Jenny Malta Bono. Each weekday, the Daily Signal delivers the Morning Bell email direct to your inbox. We created the Morning Bell to be your one-stop source for credible news reporting and insightful commentary on the issues that are shaping the agenda. You can subscribe today and get it delivered to your inbox each weekday morning. Sign up now at daily signal.com.

Just click on the connect button at the top of the page and subscribe today. Well, in the history of the pro-life movement, there are a handful of flashpoints that stand out, moments that draw our attention to the horrors of abortion and the issues that surround it and give fresh energy to the pro-life movement. One of those moments clearly came in 2010 when the FBI raided the clinic of abortion doctor Kermit Gazznell. What investigators found there and what so many witnessed was truly horrified. You're joining us now in the studio is Anne McElhenny, a filmmaker who just produced a film about this with the title, Gossnell. And thank you for joining us.

That's great to be here. Thank you, having us. Well, Anne, before we get into some of the substance of your movie, can you give us a refresher on just what happened? Yeah. I mean, it's an extraordinary case, and it's funny, having written, you know, written a book, and even now when I'm going to go to certain readings and read out passages of it, I still find it extraordinary when I tell people. Because you sort of say it and think, there's no way this could happen. And this could happen in this century in progressive Pennsylvania. Here was a doctor, Kermit Gossnell, African American.

He's in his early 70s now, who ran an abortion clinic for 30 years, where he routinely, and these are not my words, this is the grand jury's words, where he routinely delivered babies alive and then cut their necks with scissors. And he did this for 30 years. And that's why, in the eyes of the grand jury and also ABC's Terry Morn, he was described as America's biggest serial killer, which is the phrase that we use in the film. And there's so many details that are worse dwelling on in a way.

I mean, he trained his untrained staff to do this while he wasn't there. And when I say untrained staff, you know, these are people posing as nurses who have a seventh grade education and have a cocktail of alcoholism, mental health issues and criminal difficulties. People who would not be, as the detective in the case, Jim Wood said, you wouldn't let them mow your lawn, let alone give people anesthesia. and this is who gave anaesthesia. And in fact, the best anesthesiologist in the premises was a 15-year-old. I'll just repeat that once more for anyone who didn't hear it.

A 15-year-old, 1-5, a teenager, who actually took her job very seriously and created a sheet for herself so that she could try and remember. So she'd look at somebody and go, a bit of pink, a bit of red, and she would do a kind of a cocktail of the anesthesia drugs based on that. There are cats walking around in this clinic. You know, the doctor, when he did turn up, which was late in the evening, would eat breakfast cereal in the same room where people were having these procedures. Plus, he cut the legs, the feet and legs in some cases off

some of these babies and kept them in jars like trophies. And two women died. I'm going to give you the whole potted version here. Two women died during that period. I mean, I just think let's get the highlights out here that are really important to dwell on. Karnamaya Monger, a Bhutanese refugee, who had been in the country four months and was dead because of a botched abortion

at Kermit Gosnell's clinic. And Samika Shaw, young African-American, who also died. And what is extraordinary about that, Samika Shaw died in 2000, Karnima Maunger died in 2009. What is really extraordinary about that and the bit that I get super, super angry about. Because I kind of get Gossanil, I think he's a psychopath. And there are, unfortunately, among us, psychopaths who do terrible, terrible things. And your audience know that very well.

What is really despicable and very, very hard to stomach is the Department of Health in Harrisburg with people with beautiful, pensionable jobs who never got off their bum to investigate these deaths of these. And you know, it's a really weird thing. Here's a sanctuary city of Philadelphia. Sanctuary city, right? Here's a Bhutanese refugee. That's their people, right? And no one investigated her death. Samika Shaw, a young African-American woman in Philadelphia, no one investigated. No one investigated. So for 17 years, no one from Harrisburg lifted a finger to check out what this guy was doing. I mean, that's a sort of a potted version of the story. Well, I think what was shocking to me at least was that, you know, you say nobody investigated and the media, no one reported, at least so few reported. Why?

Yeah, there's the second insult. So you start with the fact that while this was going on, he got away with murder under the eyes of all these government agencies. You know, I often say, I speak about this around the country. I say to people, you know, why am I conservative? Here's why I'm a conservative, because that's what big government looks like. That was loads of big government there. And here's what this guy got away with. But you bring up a really good point. When eventually this guy was caught up with, and that's the, That's very much thanks to the work of Detective Jim Wood and undercover narcotics officer who not alone did his own job in narcotics but went ahead and investigated the murder of Carnomaiamonger.

You know, so that comes out. It's available. It's, you know, it's being spoken about in Philadelphia. And then the journalist decided not to report on it. You know, and notably people like Sarah Cliff from the Washington Post who famously, as you possibly remember, described it as a local crime story.

Local crime story? local crime story cats running around an abortion clinic babies severed feet in jars two minority women dead and 47 babies found in the basement and that's a local news story I think Sarah Cliff needs to go back to journalism school by the way now in fairness to the Washington Post

they did apologize for the lack of coverage and eventually sent somebody but they sent somebody the day before the Boston bombing and then they all just left as quickly as they'd arrived So tell us why did you decide to make a movie about this and what is that path been like? Nightmare. You know, complete nightmare from start to finish.

We decided to make a movie because, you know, it's almost, there's something really terrible here. This is like a modern day Holocaust. There's no doubt about that. I've seen the photographs of the 47 babies that were found on the premises. And the only thing I can ever compare it to is Auschwitz is the Holocaust. And here's a Holocaust that happened in broad daylight in Pennsylvania and no one knows about it. And I trust me, nobody knows about it because I'm traveling around the country and ran And by the way, including conservatives who have not heard about it.

And we thought, you know something people need to hear about this? And one of the things that we have to acknowledge, unfortunately, as journalists, is that nothing succeeds like a movie in getting a story out. In fact, an awful lot of people in this country have learned their history, unfortunately, the Vietnam War, etc., from movies as opposed to from history books. And we thought, you know what, this lends itself to a movie. And we wanted to tell this story in a way that was very accessible, also accessible to young people.

And one of the things I think is important that I'll take the advantage of doing here is, you know, for those of people listening who've read the book or anyone who would plan to read the book in the future, the book is rough going, because everything's in there. We didn't hold back at all. So every piece of information is in there. And it's compelling reading. But you could never show that in the movie. Never. There was one scene I know that we planned to have in the movie. And when we came on set, we just thought, you know, what, you can't do that. We can't do that. So we show nothing in the movie. But we cover everything, but you don't see anything. Because people could not do it. People talk about it in the movie, yeah. People talk about it. It's a lot like a law and order episode. Yeah, yeah. And why do we do it? Because we're journalists. And, you know, it's a beautiful job.

I'm looking at two journalists here. I love it. You know, but it's an awesome responsibility to tell the people what happened because the people weren't there and the people can't be there. So your job, your job is to tell them what happened. Don't spin it. Just tell them what happened. And you don't need to spin this story.

No one needs to spin anything. This is exactly what happened. The Department of Health didn't examine the place and say, 17 years and there were cats there and there were women who were left maimed for life and there were horrific scenes constantly. This is actually what happened. And the night, by the way, and I'd love to just throw this in here, you know, and it's worth saying because this story did not get enough attention at the time and it still hasn't gotten enough attention and still the number of heads that should have rolled, haven't rolled. The night of the raid, two Department of Health

nurses, nurses, mark you, went along with the detectives, with the FBI, the DEA and the local prosecutors, they went on the raid into the clinic, 17 people in all, I think. And among them, two nurses from this famous Department of Health in Harrisburg. And when they went in, they saw all this stuff, they saw the dirt, they saw all of that, and Gosnell was about to do another abortion.

And guess what they decided to do? They made a phone call, by the way. Not alone off their own bath, but they phoned Harrisburg to the better-offs up in Harrisburg who were getting the really good money, you know, the people who run those places and the lawyers, and they decide,

let him keep going. And these are the same people in the Department of Health, by the way, who go to, and you guys know this. They go to restaurants or bars, go like this, and I'm scraping my hand here along the bench here. Look, and find dust particular matter and say, we're shutting this place down. But they didn't shut that place down the fact that the... And that is how sacred abortion is to these people. That is how sacred it is. It's like a sacrament.

There's no way we're going to stop doing these abortions. And they let him do an abortion in those conditions. Well, who are you hoping to reach with this movie? It comes out soon. Absolutely everyone. you know, everyone, this film is for everyone. You know, I think one of the big, I think what's really missing,

and it's interesting that now with Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation, the eyes of the world, but particularly obviously the eyes of the American people, are back on this Roe v. Wade, on this abortion issue. And here's what I think is missing. Information. You know, if you like abortion, then let's talk about it.

Let's talk about what it is. And do we like that? Do we like in America that you can have an abortion at nine months? Do we like that? Because if you like it, that's fine. As long as everyone's on the same, page here. And people have voted for it and people are happy about that. And I can tell you what I found

extraordinary in this story was the number of people in Pennsylvania who didn't know the law in Pennsylvania. And when I say didn't know the law, I'm talking about the lawyers. So the two ADAs on the case, two women, highly intelligent, very smart girls and mothers, like, you know, those kind of sassy, smart, smart women. Neither of them

knew the law, which was 24 weeks, as they said, which was six months. And they basically looked at each other, these two women who came on the case and went, you can an abortion at six months in Pennsylvania. Well, I've news for you, honey. You can have an abortion at nine months in this country. And you know, I think people should talk about that. And what, what this case does, which I think is really important is it focuses people's minds on the children

in a way that we maybe haven't had a chance to do before. At the very center of this story, there is a baby called Baby Boy A, who was born, who shares a birthday with my own father, the July the 12th, and he was born in 2008, and lived and died on that day. But had to be a baby, but had such an impact on the workers there that two of the different two women took a photograph of him, Adrian Moten and Karima Cross. And Karima Cross was asked on the stand. By the way, none of this was newsworthy. I think it's worth constantly mentioning that to the listeners. None of this was newsworthy. At one point, Karima Cross was asked to stand up and to show the jury what the baby did when they threw him into the tubberware container. They said, do you mind, do you mind standing up? Do you mind standing up

and showing? And then she curled herself into the fetal position in front of the jury who gas. And Adrian Moten, who also took a photograph, and when the cops caught up with her, they came, and it's amazing, and I interviewed Adrian, and she handed them the phone that she had kept. You know the way you get a new phone and you have an old phone, you just throw it in it, whatever. A lot of people throw them out.

She kept the phone, and she knew someone was going to come one day. And I said to her, oh, my God, what was it like? Because all of the workers were arrested, because all of the workers killed babies too who were alive. So they all did time, and Adrian Moten was one of them. And I said, oh, God, what was it like? Was it terrible to get arrested? and she said I wasn't arrested

I was saved I mean it's just amazing and then she said you know she said there's a photograph in there and she handed the phone to the cops who had to send it to Quantico and she said you know and she said to them

I'm so relieved because now I'm free now I'm free and I've spoken to her I've met her and I said to her was it terrible to go to prison and I mean it's an amazing story which is covered very

in great detail in the book but she said oh my God it must be terrible to go to prison I was just not emphasising whether there was a person because I always think it's like the worst thing you'd imagine being deprived of freedom and she said nothing to make you know and I said you know and she even described as she and the other women

went into this women's prison how the other women shouted and you can imagine I'm not going to use any bad language on the on the show but you can imagine the kind of language that was used against her and she said they all shouted and women threw stuff at them because you know the whole thing of the honour among thieves and of course she's the lowest of the lowest she killed babies so they were all very very abusive

and I said was that terrible and she said no no no no no And I said, well, was anything upsetting to you? And she said, oh yeah, I didn't like, I didn't want them to turn the light out. I didn't like the darkness. And I said, like why? And she said, oh, because I could see him. Garsnell. And that's what I thought.

And she said, no, I saw baby boy, eh? And all I could do, she said, was say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. So this is the story that didn't get reported. This is the story that we think is worth bringing to the public. and it's and you know and I want to say as well because I think it's really important because it's a really dark I mean you know all your listeners are listening and thinking oh my god I can never go to see that film I don't want to know anything more about this

maybe some of you are thinking that by the way everyone has to go and see it that's just your that's your patriotic duty by the way and if you don't want to go yourself you buy a ticket anyway for the local theatre and by the way that's a really great gesture because it's really important we have a big weekend the first weekend and yes please so the first weekend is October 12th and it will it be in theatres across the nation Exactly. 750 theaters.

750. Yeah. And if it does well the first weekend, it stays and it gets expanded on. But here's what's really important. There are heroes in this story. And that's what you come away with. You come away with the heroes that are in this story, Detective Jim Wood, who is just a rock star. ADA Christine Wexler, ADA Joanne Pescatori, ADA Ed Cameron, who put this guy behind bars forever.

And there are other heroes too. And there is the child that got away, the baby that got away, which is a very significant story in this whole nightmare in this kind of diabolical world. There's the baby that got away. And that's the last thing you see in the movie. You see that child, the one that got away whose mother changed her mind, who went to the clinic, spoke to Gosnell and started to get second. And she was seven months pregnant.

And she said to Gosnell, you know, what happens to the babies afterwards? And he said, oh, we burn them. Oh, my God. And she went home and when you're very pregnant like that, it's a three-day process. So she went home, talked to her cousin, and her cousin phoned Gosnell. You're not getting your money back. You're not getting your money back, is what he said, you know. And I don't do reversals.

And here she is in the grand jury, and she says this. And Christine Wexler said to her, oh, so what happened? And she went, oh, don't you know? My baby started kindergarten today. And the grand jury stood up and applauded. Wow. And no one had ever heard of that before. Wow.

Okay. I talk a lot very quickly. I'm sorry. No, this is great. So there's some hope in this movie. There's a lot of hope. There's a lot of hope in this movie. And I think people will feel,

a duty, and I think it's a duty among of people, to witness, I remember saying to David Delighton, I'd love to just get this story out, because I love David Delighton, you know who I'm talking about, who is a national treasure and should be getting the Congressional Medal of Freedom

or whatever is the highest order that you can give to a person in this country, that is what should happen to it. And just remind our audiences, he's the one who exposed the sale of fetal body parts. Yeah, and took those videos and stood there. And I'm a friend of Davidson, and I mean, I've traveled around with him,

and we've done speeches together. And I remember hearing him make a speech one time and I just loved it and I think it's applicable also to the Gosnell movie. I said to him, how could you do that? How could you stand there? How did you do that? And he said it was a privilege to be a witness to the children who nobody else witnessed for. Their own mothers didn't want them, but he wanted to be there and to remember them. And by being there, record that they lived. And that's what we feel about baby boy. And it's something that's said in the film. You know, the witness, Adrian Moten, is asked on the stand, by the way. Why

did you do it? Why did you take a photograph? And she said, he was so big. He could have been somebody's little brother. I wanted to take a photograph so that we would remember that he was here for a little while. And I think his impact would be forever. I have watched people change their minds about abortion

just by hearing about him. And I compare it to the Holocaust, as I said to you before. And you know the way sometimes with the Holocaust is this huge number of people and it's like millions of people died and it's really hard? How do I get my head around millions of people about died? And I think in the very same way

the Chindler's List had the child in the red coat. Do you remember that? and you saw at the end, you saw a little child, a little toddler during the middle, in the film. And the film was all sepia tinted, but there was this one red coat, do you remember? And you saw it and you thought, what's that about? And then at the very end of the film, you saw a whole pile of bodies. And in the middle, there was the red coat. And you thought, oh my God, that's that little darling.

And that's exactly what this film is about, because we make a baby boy a becomes a real person that will change the whole world. Okay. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Anne, again, October 12th is when the movie is out and theaters nationwide. Charter School in Georgia sent students home with an unusual permission form, asking parents if it was okay to paddle their children if they misbehaved. According to a CBS Georgia affiliate, about 100 forms have been returned to the school and about a third of parents have given consent for their children to be paddled. Quote, there was a time when corporal punishment was kind of the Norman school and you didn't have the problems that you have, says Jody Ballinay, superintendent of the K-9, Georgia. school for innovation and the classics. So Daniel, do you think this is a smart approach to student

discipline or not? I think students generally lack discipline these days. And first of all, that often stems from the home. But schools that you could also point to schools, and we typically don't have corporal punishment anymore. And the fact is that you have a lot of problems today in schools that you just didn't have generations past. So I think something, I'm not saying that this is sort of a silver bullet by any stretch, and I certainly wouldn't advocate an aggressive use of corporal punishment by teachers who are not parents. I certainly think it primarily belongs to parents and discipline their kids, but I do think there's something noteworthy about the fact that, you know, we think we're so enlightened today with the way we treat kids, we think we're humane, and yet

we still have, you know, a bunch of school shooters, we have discipline problems in general. I think I'm not I'm not going to just wholesale endorse this particular instance but I think it's worth considering bringing back something like this. I think my big concern stems from something you said like you mentioned like parents should be the primary disciplinary. First of all, the interest full disclosure,

although I was spanked as a child, I was never paddled, was not aware that paddles still existed in the United States so this all came as kind of a shock to me. You never heard of paddles like they used? I heard of it, but I thought it was like from, Little House on the Prairie or something. I honestly had no idea. My dad has told me stories of paddling in school.

He told me stories of like football players being paddled and like crying in high school because they did something bad. I mean these paddles are like they'd have like little holes in them so that you could like whip the paddle faster and it would hurt more. I, um, okay. I mean, I would say that like this sort of punishment to me could so easily. go bad that I am not really... How could it go bad?

I agree. It definitely could go bad. If it's delivered in anger, I mean, that's something that, you know, it really could... You're treading a thin line here, I think, between punishment and abuse. And I think, no doubt, I'm not against corporal punishment for children. I would say at the age of high school, I would sort of definitely be like they are definitely at the age of reason by then, and that's not the right approach. I would also say because I think it is so crucial that the person doing it not be someone who's like acting in an abusive fashion or out of control that any sort of punishment like this, if I could get on board with it at all, I would certainly want the parents doing it, not the school. I agree. And the home really is, as you said, the best place to have this kind of punishment. And there are all kinds of school politics at play when you have, you know, non-parents spanking.

students and if there's a dispute, like, who adjudicates that and, you know, there's definitely that kind of controversy it's possible. But it just does strike me that in a culture today, when we have a discipline problem, this kind of thing will probably do more good than harm. Yeah, and maybe in certain instances, like a school that was for, you know, maybe already problem cases, like children who had a long history of not behaving, I would feel a bit more open to it. But I mean, and I think it is you have to do, it's your third offense or something, but still just in general, I'm not a big fan of schools doing this. Yeah. And you do also have to recognize that punishment is not the, is not like a holistic solution. Like you have to have other things like counseling and like, you know, care for kids and they need to feel that they are not just simply being, you know, punished all the time.

but that they can grow and that their teachers are actually for them and not against them. Absolutely. Well, we're going to leave it there for today. Thanks so much for listening to the Daily Signal podcast, brought to you from the Robert H. Bruce Radio Studio at the Heritage Foundation.

Please be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or SoundCloud, and please leave us a review or rating on iTunes to give us any feedback. We'll see you again tomorrow. You've been listening to the Daily Signal podcast, executive produced by Kate Trinko and Daniel Davis, Sound design by Michael Gooden, Lauren Evans, and Thalia Rampersad. For more information, visit DailySignal.com.