The Daily Signal - Ep. 309: In Britain, Free Speech at Risk

Episode Date: October 3, 2018

Great Britain has historically been one of the most free countries in the world. But in this hypersensitive age, free speech is coming under genuine threat -- not just on college campuses, but across British society. Anglican Bishop Michael Nazir-Ali joins us to discuss. Plus: The media gets worked up over an apparent ice-throwing incident in Brett Kavanaugh’s past. We also cover these stories:--Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says the Senate will vote this week on Judge Brett Kavanaugh’s nomination.--Sen. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., expresses concern over Kavanaugh acting "partisan."--Amazon is raising its U.S. minimum wage to $15 an hour.The Daily Signal podcast is available on Ricochet, iTunes, SoundCloud, Google Play, or Stitcher. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts. If you like what you hear, please leave a review. You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at [e-mail]. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal Podcast for Wednesday, October 3rd. I'm Kate Trinco. And I'm Daniel Davis. Great Britain has historically been one of the most free countries in the world, but in his hypersensitive age, free speech is coming under genuine threat, not just on college campuses, but across British society. We'll sit down with Anglican Bishop Michael Nazir Ali to discuss. Plus, the media gets worked up over an apparent ice-throwing incident in Brett Kavanaugh's past.

Mitch McConnell isn't exactly amused. But first, we'll cover a few of the top headlines. Well, as the FBI wraps up its one-week investigation into Brett Kavanaugh, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says the Senate will vote this week on Kavanaugh's nomination. The time for endless delay in obstruction has come to a close. Judge Kavanaugh's nominations out of committee. We're considering it here on the floor. And Mr. President, we'll be voting this week.

The FBI has until Friday to conclude its short and limited probe. The White House requested that probe after Republican Senator Jeff Flake joined Democrats in asking for a one-week delay before the final confirmation vote. So Julie Swetnik appeared on NBC Monday night, but didn't really necessarily do her own story any favors. Swetnik, of course, is the client represented by Michael Avanetti, who alleges that her high school days in Maryland were filled with parties that included gang rapes. Among the oddities about her story, NBC admitted she was changing her story, as NBC's Kate Snow, who interviewed Swetnik, says here. And NBC News, for the record, has not been able to independently verify her claims. There are things that she told us on camera that differ from her written statement last. We've been trying independently to reach out to anyone who remembers attending parties with Julie Swetnik and Brett Kavanaugh,

and we've been asking her attorney for names so far. We've not found anyone who remembers that. Well, in the days since forcing a one-week delay on Kavanaugh's confirmation vote, Senator Flake has embraced concerns voiced by Democratic senators. For instance, that Kavanaugh's tone last week was too partisan. Flake appeared at a panel hosted by the Atlantic sitting alongside Democratic Senator Chris Coons. Here's what he said. I was very troubled by the tone of the remarks.

The initial defense that Judge Kavanaugh gave was something, like I told my wife, I hope that I would sound that indignant if I were, if I felt that I was unjustly, you know, maligned. But then it went on, and the interaction with the members was sharp and partisan, and that concerns me. And I tell myself, you give a little leeway because of what he's been through. But on the other hand, we can't have this on the court. We simply can't. In an interview on Fox News late Monday, Senator John Kennedy, Republican of Louisiana, was pretty fired up over the Kavanaugh situation. They're going to argue he doesn't have the demeanor.

Well, they called him a rich, drunk, lying. sexual predator and the man took offense to that and they say as a result he doesn't have the demeanor to get on on the to be on the supreme court they must really think the american people are stupid well on tuesday at least two packages showed up at the pentagon containing rison a toxic powder that can kill in small amounts the packages were addressed to defense secretary jim mattis and the navy's top officer admiral john richardson those packages were flagged and tested before they ever entered the pentagon It came on the very same day that a white powdery substance was discovered in Senator Ted Cruz's Houston office.

Two people there have been hospitalized, though the powder eventually tested negative for any toxin. Tensions are rising between France and Iran, although not over the Iran deal specifically. Instead, France now believes Iranian operatives were behind a bomb plot unearthed and foiled earlier this year that was set to take place near Paris. AFP reports, quote, the French government announced, it was freezing assets belonging to two suspected Iranian intelligence operatives, as well as others belonging to Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security. In a statement, three French ministers, foreign economic and interior, said, quote, this extremely serious act envisioned on our territory could not go without a response.

In taking this decision, France underlines its determination to fight against terrorism in all its forms, particularly on its own territory. Well, good news for Amazon workers. The Seattle-based company is raising its U.S. minimum wage to $15 an hour. The new wage will kick in on November 1st and will affect 250,000 current employees and 100,000 seasonal employees. The decision comes as Amazon has faced some criticism over low pay and benefits to its warehouse workers. And curiously, Kate, this did not require a government mandate. Amazing. Although the cynical part of me is the company behind Alexa and all this other stuff just going to robotize more of its work.

What's weird, though, is that Jeff Bezos, the CEO, is now announcing that they're going to lobby Congress to raise the federal minimum wage, which is currently $750. Or $7.25. But, I mean, they can obviously afford that. Their competitors may not. So maybe they're just trying to kill their competition. Sounds like they're trying to kill more mom and pops. Awesome, Amazon. Well, up next we'll talk to Bishop Michael Nazir Ali about religious freedom in Britain. I'm Rob Blewey, editor-in-chief of The Daily Signal. And I'm Ginny Maltabano. Each weekday, the Daily Signal delivers the Morning Bell email direct to your inbox. We created the Morning Bell to be your one-stop source for credible news reporting and insightful

commentary on the issues that are shaping the agenda. You can subscribe today and get it delivered to your inbox each weekday morning. Sign up now at DailySignal.com. Just click on the connect button. at the top of the page and subscribe today. Joining us is Bishop Michael Nazir Ali, the former Bishop of Rochester, a visiting bishop now in South Carolina, and the president of Oxford Center for Training, Research, Advocacy, and Dialogue.

So I understand you come from a family background with both Islam and Christianity. What are your thoughts on Islam and how this religion should be approached in our modern times? Well, I think with Islam, of course Muslims have to answer this. question themselves, but other people are also affected by how they behave. And one of the things that I am looking for is how fundamental freedoms are promoted in the Islamic world. Freedom to believe, the freedom to express what you believe, the freedom to change your belief, if that's necessary to do. And all these freedoms have lately been denied in many parts of the Islamic world. So there are many reasonable Muslims who see that the way forward is to affirm fundamental

freedoms, not just for people who are not Muslims, but for example, for women as a group. I mean, that's not a minority. And it is very important for them to be able to express themselves and to live as freely as is possible. Well, and that's an issue that is a personal one for you, because I understand you have in your family lineage, both Muslim and Christian background? Well, yes, and I have enormous respect for my Muslim relatives and for how they live, but I expect a similar respect for my own beliefs and the freedom to express them. Okay, well, speaking of freedom to express them, you, of course, are familiar with the United Kingdom. There are hate speech laws there.

How are they affecting religious expression over there? Well, the trouble with hate speech laws is that they prevent free thinking and free speech. So if anyone doesn't like your face or your voice, they can say you are engaging in hate speech. The proper limitations, I mean, there are, I believe there are some proper limitations on freedom of speech. for instance in international law the limits are whether what you say about other people

leads to violence or to discrimination against them. Now I can see that as a limit but anything beyond that if people in British law for example these days it is not there is no objective test it is whether you

think that I'm stirring up hatred against you. Well, this is a subjective way of approaching things, and it will mean a shutdown on free speech on a whole variety of fronts. So whether it is a question of religious difference or a question about how you understand marriage or family or the sanctity of life or when there is a human person and how a human person is to be treated. I mean, all of those things. will, free speech will be deadened in these ways. So we have to be very careful about these laws and how they are applied. I have a friend, a colleague, who's also a bishop,

and he was on the radio discussing some research carried out here in this country, actually, in the US, about how some people who have unwanted same-sex feelings can be helped. He wasn't saying everyone can be, but the research showed that some people can be. And he said this on the radio program, but when he got home, the police were waiting for him. Wow. To interview him. Now, this is unacceptable as a limit on free thinking and free speech. And what happened to your friend in the end? Well, nothing happened in the end, but it could have done. Has there been a legal basis for that? We hear about hate speech laws.

Is Parliament passed these laws? Parliament has passed these laws, but the laws themselves are quite limited. So they do exempt, for example, conscience, they do recognize freedom of religious belief and so on. But the problem is enthusiasts and not just those who want. to limit free speech, but even the law enforcement agencies may not fully understand the limits of these laws and try to enforce them in a way that was never intended. So you cited specifically people discussing topics like marriage and abortion. And of course, you know, in the United States as well, these topics have become increasingly

controversial. And one of the arguments we hear a lot here is that you're discriminating against LGBT people if you say something like, I don't believe that same-sex marriage should be legal. Could you expound a little bit besides your bishop friend? What are some examples of how maybe Christians in Britain aren't able to say what they think on these controversial issues? Yeah, I mean, all free speech requires that we are against something or someone. if you don't have that, there won't be any free speech at all. So if I disagree with Muslims about the penal law of Islam, well, of course, you know, I'm disagreeing with them.

There's no question that I'm doing so, and I must do so, but to prevent me from doing that, what about the protection of my own rights as someone who has freedom of speech and who has certain beliefs. So discrimination is, I mean, you can't just apply it across the board like that because that would just kill free speech

in every respect as a fundamental right and not just speech, but thought and writing and all of those things. It doesn't, this matter is not just limited to things like marriage and abortion or euthanasia. For instance, there have been cases of people preaching or speaking in public. And all it needs now is for one person to complain. And then the preacher or the speaker in public is arrested,

taken down to the cells. Eventually, they may be released. but then what happens to free speech? I'm curious what happens, though, if someone were out speaking, what if a religious person went to the gay pride parade and then filed their own complaint and said, well, I'm offended by that. You talk about being subjective,

but would that complaint be treated the same way, or is there any criteria that they would say, well, that complaint doesn't count? Well, we have the Equalities Act in Britain, and it lists a number of protected characteristics. of which sexual orientation is one, but so is religious belief. However, in terms of enforcement,

it is sexual orientation often trumps religious belief. And you have to ask why, and people do ask why. Jacob Rees-Mogg, who's one of our MPs, was tackled about this recently on television, I think it was. And he said, well, it's my religious belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. My church teaches that. He's a Roman Catholic.

And so the interviewer said, but doesn't that make you prejudice? And he said, no, because you've got to respect my religious belief. Do you not respect my religious belief? He said to the interviewer. And in the end, he prevailed in what he was saying, that his religious belief also is worthy of respect

in terms of the public space. Well, there was another MP that also was in the news the last couple of years. Tim Farron, leader of the Liberal Democrats Party, a very politically left figure, but also a Christian. Can you tell us some of our American listeners about his case? Yes, Tim Farron's a liberal Democrat leader of his party, which is the third largest party in England anyway. And throughout the general election campaign, he was being pressed to say that he did not believe that homosexual activity was wrong. And in the end, I think he did say so that he did not believe it was wrong in the course of the general election. He was still put under pressure.

and pressure was put on his party to remove him from leadership, which in fact happened. He resigned in the end. But then after he had been removed as leader, he then recanted. And he said, I shouldn't have said that it wasn't wrong because I do believe that it is. Wow. That's incredible. So what would you say generally is the state of religious belief in Europe? I know that's sort of a broad question, but it's, I think,

generally in the United States, we have an idea that the U.S. is more devout than our counterparts in Europe. Does that strike you as fair, or how is that? I think it depends where in Europe. I mean, it probably isn't true of southern Europe. I think in the southern countries of Europe, whether there is observance or not, I think religious belief is there. In northwestern Europe, it is changing. But there are a number of things to note. I mean, the first is immigration, which is quite significant in this area.

But this is not just Muslim immigration. I mean, that has made huge demographic changes, but it's also Christian immigration. So, for instance, many churches. in Britain have experienced renewal, and there are many new churches in Britain because of immigration from Africa, Christian immigration. In the same way, the Roman Catholic Church is not showing the same kind of decline in Britain as some other churches because of Eastern European, particularly Polish immigration. And there are new kinds of Christian. I mean, for instance, that is now quite a significant Coptic Christian presence in London.

So, you know, it's a changing scene. Wow. So many of the assumptions about the direction of our society are just being kind of blown up. That's right. It's fascinating. Even within churches, I mean, the Roman Catholic Church, the Latin Right Catholic Church made a very lovely church in the middle of the middle, of a northern city redundant because they just couldn't manage it.

It has now been taken over by the Saro Malabar Catholics, which is an Eastern right Catholic church, and they've made it the center of their aparchy, which has now been established in Britain. There are now enough Saro Malabar Catholics from India working in hospitals and so on in England for this new kind of Catholic presence to emerge. Now this would have been unthinkable 20 years ago. Wow. Well, Bishop, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you.

Hi, this is Rob Lewy, an editor-in-chief of The Daily Signal. If you liked hearing about the issues that Washington's not discussing, check out Underreported, a brand-new video series from The Daily Signal looking at other issues that the mainstream media forgot to mention. When Brett Kavanaugh's nomination for the Supreme Court is moving ahead steadily with the Senate planning to vote sometime this week, but in the meantime, more minor stories are trickling in. A new piece in the New York Times reports that in 1985, Kavanaugh was questioned by police after his friend threw a glass bottle at someone in a bar fight.

Kavanaugh was accused of having thrown ice at someone during the incident, though he didn't admit to that and was not arrested. Senator Masey Hirono, Democrat from Hawaii, seized on that report. Here's what she said on CNN Tuesday. This is why we need an FBI investigation because there are a lot of allegations and the report. reports really are about how he behaves when he is drunk. So that is very relevant. And the portrayal of himself as practically a choir boy is very much contradicted by his roommate, for example, in college, as well as people who knew him in high school.

Why we need an FBI investigation, why we've been calling for one for what seems like months. Well, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell's take couldn't have been more different. he laughed off the story. Here's what he said on the Senate floor. Last night, the New York Times unleashed this major story. Get this. Judge Kavanaugh may have been accused of throwing some ice across a college bar in the mid-1980s.

Talk about a bombshell. One can only imagine what new bombshell might be published today or tomorrow. Now, what the audio there doesn't cap. is the slight smirk in the majority leader's face, which is just perfect. I think you can kind of hear. So, Kate, is it relevant that Brett Kavanaugh may have thrown ice at someone at a bar over 30 years ago? I mean, absolutely.

Obviously, it should be disqualifying. I mean, ice, like, maybe someone felt cold for a minute. Maybe, like, I don't know. Like, there's probably a lot of serious consequences to ice throwing. It's so stupid. And, like, the thing is, of course, sexual assault allegations. should be taken seriously. But like if every person who's threw ice in college is, I mean, I don't even know where to begin.

Like they keep shifting the goalpost, which is sort of a cliche to say at this point. But like, no, of course throwing ice shouldn't disqualify you. Yeah. I kind of wonder, I feel like Joe Biden would have been the kind of guy to throw ice in a bar or even much more than that. I mean, he's the one who said that he would have taken Trump behind the gym and beaten him, beating them up. Well, but it's also, it's not just like, oh, the other side does it. I think it's something like, yes, there are certain things that maybe cannot be forgiven or

overlooked for like some of the highest positions in the land. There are other things like, let's let people grow up. Oh, my gosh. Like, I was a pretty prudish college student, but I did some stuff. Like, I don't know. When I was nine, I like kicked my brother in the mouth and he had to go to the ER to get stitches. Should I be disqualified from everything? Was that my proudest moment?

No, did I intend to hurt him like that? No, but like, this is just insane. And he would have been 19 or 20 years old when this happened. So not exactly a fully aware adult. But it's also like, what was happening? You don't know the context. I doubt it was someone who's peacefully sitting at the bar and mining their own business and Kavanaugh just threw ice at them.

Like, it was probably some sort of college spat. And it's not like if he had thrown a punch or if he'd beaten a guy up until he had to go to the ER. There are so many things that could have been disqualifying, like, ice throwing. I mean, right. Maybe he was asking, maybe he asked for ice or something. Or he could have deserved it, you know. Or maybe it was all in good fun. I mean, now that I think about it, I think my dad once scraped ice off the windshield and

threw it my way and was like snow fight. It was California. It was what we had. But, like, I didn't take that as an active aggression, you know? Yeah. I mean, when I was a little five years old, my dad, I was carving a pumpkin with my dad. and he put, like, took out the pumpkin guts and, like, put him on my arm. Right.

And I was kind of freaked out as a five-year-old. I mean, your dad should definitely not ever be on the Supreme Court. Like, that's pretty awful. Yeah. You know, so serious concern, though, like, this kind of accusation, all of this builds a new standard for what we should expect of a Supreme Court justice, which I doubt they will apply to their own nominees, Democrats. But it makes you wonder, like, is this something that you think? think should disqualify someone, like one of your own nominees? Ice throwing?

No, like it makes you wonder if the Democrats... I would say Democrats shouldn't be disqualified for ice throwing. I am here to state that if you are liberal, libertary, and Green Party, whatever, I don't care if you threw ice. It seems pretty minor given that his friend actually threw glass at somebody and the guy was bleeding from his ear and had to go to the hospital. That strikes me as a much more serious charge. Yeah.

I, but I mean, I think the thing is like, yeah, jokes aside, and I think Kavanaugh has made this point others have. This really is discouraging good men and women from going up for certain positions. I mean, obviously you have to expect your past to be looked at. Obviously, if, God forbid, you've done something like sexual assault, like you should be held or, you know, seriously hurt someone or had a DUI or like, there's a lot of stuff that's fair game. but there's also a lot of stuff that like no one is perfect. You know, people made mistakes. And I think, you know, you've got a long pattern here of someone who has clearly spent most of his life being a good guy doing the right thing. Let's make sure that, you know, we've done the proper vetting that there isn't credible evidence that he was ever a seriously bad guy.

But, I mean, this is going to be a problem. It is hard to get talented people for these positions. I think a lot of people in D.C. sort of rule themselves out for it and a lot of people around the country. And in some ways, I just feel like, okay, let's bring on the Facebook era. Let's learn to lighten up a little bit. And, like, yeah, we're soon going to have an age where everyone's going to have some digital footprint that they can't unraise no matter how many consultants they hire. And we're just going to have to chill out. Yeah.

No, I was going to say that's going to be pretty scary for a lot of people because, you know, Judge Kaffron is just the very beginning. He was this, this, all this stuff is from before Facebook, before Internet or anything like that. Well, I mean, the Internet, I think, existed in 85. I mean the other allegations was 802 I don't know exactly when I wore made it I thought existed in a form military maybe which is a form

I don't know you can have another episode on that don't don't don't don't cite us as authorities when the internet started but yeah like it is a problem for getting good people and I think the issue is this encourages the supremely annoying and horrible people who at like the age of five are like I'm going to be a president and then live their whole lives in accordance, which is actually

a sort of shrivel, terrible life. They're going to be the only ones who can become president or Supreme Court justice or anything. Right. Well, you know, part of what makes a lot of Republicans unwilling to go along with more FBI investigations, aside from Jeff Flake, is that the Democrats are obviously doing this in bad faith. Like Senator Herono is standing there saying, we need more investigation.

Obviously, no amount of investigation would change their minds, would get. them to vote yes on Kavanaugh. Nothing would change their mind. Senator Kennedy was right. I hope we have a hearing with the person who was hit by the ice. I'm very excited to have the truth come out. Well, the good thing about getting hit by ice

is that then you can ice your wound afterward. Also, this raises questions. It's like hitting someone with a band-aid. My understanding is that like appropriate hipster ice is the really huge cubes, which you would imagine are also more lethal. So, like, are hipsters actually trying to kill people? I don't know.

It seems like something that we should have investigative journalism. I did not know about hipster ice. Oh, yeah. You can buy, like, trays that have ginormous ice cube potential. So those the ones with the dimples in the middle? I don't. I think you're maybe into higher end than hipster. Like, I'm just saying ice cubes have gotten bigger.

Presumably in the 80s, we're talking smaller chips that would have hurt a lot less. But I don't know. This is a real problem. I'm surprised by your ice expertise. Okay. I'm very untrend. We're going to leave it there for today, but thanks so much for listening to the Daily Signal podcast, brought to you from the Robert H. Bruce Radio Studio at the Heritage Foundation. Please be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or SoundCloud, and please leave us a review or a rating on iTunes to give us any feedback.

We'll see you again tomorrow. You've been listening to the Daily Signal podcast, executive produced by Kate Trinko and Daniel Davis, sound design by Michael Gooden, Lauren Evans, and Thalia Rampersad. For more information, visit DailySignal.com.