The Daily Signal - For 11 Years, She Lived as a Man

Episode Date: November 26, 2019

At age 19, Kathy Grace Duncan decided she was ready to live as a man. "Before I went to kindergarten, probably ages 3 to 4, I would ride my tricycle over to get my girlfriend, pick her up. We were going to get married," she recounts. "So I knew that I wanted to be a boy and I would play like a boy." But eleven years after her gender transition, Duncan decided she was now going to live as a woman again. She joins the podcast to share what happened. We also cover the following stories: President Trump celebrated Conan, the dog instrumental in taking down a terrorist. Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., isn't backing down on his calls for a look at the Bidens and Burisma. A Massachusetts town wants to let 16 and 17-year-olds vote. The Daily Signal podcast is available on Ricochet, iTunes, Pippa, Google Play, or Stitcher. All of our podcasts can be found at DailySignal.com/podcasts. If you like what you hear, please leave a review. You can also leave us a message at 202-608-6205 or write us at [e-mail]. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Tuesday, November 26th. I'm Kate Trinco. And I'm Daniel Davis. As more people experiment with transgenderism, more people are backtracking and regretting their decisions. In many cases, those decisions have lasting consequences. I recently spoke with Kathy Grace Duncan. She's a transgender survivor whose story begins in the early 80s. We'll share that interview.

And we'll also share a doctor's perspective. Andre Moll has observed the harmful trend toward putting kids on puberty blockers. He offers a much better alternative. And if you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure to leave a review or a five-star rating on iTunes and encourage others to subscribe. Now on to our top news. President Trump is continuing to protect Eddie Gallagher, a Navy seal accused of war crimes. According to CNN, Defense Secretary Mark Esper said that President Trump ordered him to let

Gallagher keep his status as a Navy seal despite resistance from top Navy officers. Just a week before that, President Trump had reversed Gallagher's demotion. That sparked concern among military leaders that Trump's intervention would erode discipline and order in the military. At that point, Navy Secretary Richard Spencer launched a formal review to determine whether Gallagher was fit to serve. But over the weekend, news emerged that he tried to negotiate a secret deal with the White House in which Gallagher would be protected.

For that, the Secretary of Defense fired him. Senator Lindsey Graham isn't backing down on his calls for a closer look at former Vice President Joe Biden, his son Hunter, and their dealings with Ukraine. Despite criticism from the former Vice President, Graham, a Republican from South Carolina and Senate Judiciary Chairman told reporters per Politico, I like Joe Biden. I like him a lot. I think he's a fine man. I'm not saying Joe did anything wrong, but I want to see the transcripts.

But if there's nothing there, I'll be the first one to say there's nothing there. But we're not going to live in a country where only one party gets investigated. Graham also tweeted on Monday, I love Joe Biden as a person, but we are not going to give a pass to what is obviously a conflict of interest. I believe Hunter Biden's association on the Burisma Board, board doesn't pass the smell test. If a Republican was in the same position, they'd certainly be investigated. Well, on Monday, President Trump honored Conan, the military dog that was wounded in the operation that killed ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. Here's what Trump said at the

Rose Garden ceremony. The dog is incredible. Actually incredible. We spent some good time with it. and so brilliant, so smart, the way it was with the Special Forces people that have worked with, and for obvious reasons, they can't be out in front of the media. But they did a fantastic job. Conan did a fantastic job. And we're very honored to have Conan here and to have given Conan a certificate and an award. The Supreme Court announced it won't hear a case involving National Review, the Competitive Enterprise Institute and a key scientist in the climate change debate, Michael Mann.

Mann sued National Review and Competitive Enterprise Institute over an analogy that compared his approach to climate change data to child abuser Jerry Sandusky. In a column last month, National Review Editor-in-Chief, Rich Lowry, said Man's purpose in suing us is clear enough to bleed us of time and most importantly resources in order to punish us for having the temerity to harshly criticize his work. Man tweeted after the decision,

We are pleased with this nearly unanimous decision by the Supreme Court to deny the appeal by the National Review and Competitive Enterprise Institute in our defamation case against them. We are looking forward to the trial. Justice Samuel Alito descended from the decision not to hear the case. He wrote, climate change has staked a place at the very center of this nation's public discourse. Politicians, journalists, academics, and ordinary Americans discuss and debate various aspects of climate change daily,

its causes, extent, urgency, consequences, and the appropriate policies for addressing it. The core purpose of the constitutional protection of freedom of expression is to ensure that all opinions on such issues have a chance to be heard and considered. I do not suggest that speech that touches on an important and controversial issue is always immune from challenge under state defamation law, and I express no opinion on whether the speech at issue in this case is or is not entitled to First Amendment protection. But the standard to be applied in a case like this is immensely important. Pro-democracy leaders in Hong Kong are celebrating a landslide election victory over pro-China candidates.

On Monday, dozens of new city councilors elected on Sunday gathered at Hong Kong Polytechnic University to support protesters still trapped inside. Those protesters have been caught in a standoff with police since last week. The newly elected leaders called for a political solution to the social unrest that has engulfed the city for five months and has only in terms. and has only intensified. The protest movement stems back to a Beijing-backed bill that would have restricted the freedoms enjoyed by Hong Kong residents. Protesters have demanded, among other things, democratic reforms to the city's government,

which currently gives disproportionate weight to Beijing-backed leaders. The newly elected pro-democracy leaders will only control low-level affairs concerned with neighborhood governance, but protesters hope that the electoral shift, even at that level will re-energize the pro-democracy movement. Sweet 16 and ready to vote? A Massachusetts town approved letting 16-year-olds vote, but they'll still need to get sign-off from the state government

to actually let the younger teens participate in our democratic process. The town of Brookline, Massachusetts, voted to let 16 and 17-year-olds vote in municipal elections and even be local officials themselves, according to a local CBS affiliate. Earlier this year, Representative Ayanna Presley, a Democrat from Massachusetts, proposed letting 16-year-olds vote with an amendment to a House bill. Up next, my conversation with Kathy Grace Duncan, a transgender survivor.

Tired of high taxes, fewer health care choices, and bigger government, become a part of the Heritage Foundation. We're fighting the rising tide of homegrown socialism while developing conservative solutions that make families, more free and more prosperous. Find out more at heritage.org. Well, I'm joined now by Kathy Grace Duncan. She is a transgender survivor,

and she's here to share some of her story. Kathy Grace, thanks for your time today. You're welcome. My first question for you, Kathy Grace, is when in your life did you first begin to think that you were a man? We hear more and more stories these days of people who have gone transgender,

some of whom have now reversed. And very often this begins in childhood. Was that the case for you? Yes, absolutely. So before I went to kindergarten, probably ages 3 to 4, I would ride my tricycle over to get my girlfriend pick her up. We were going to get married. So I knew that there was that I wanted to be a boy,

and I would play like a boy. So it was definitely way before kindergarten. Okay. And at what point did you decide to actually begin to live a man. When I was 19. I started taking hormones and then changed my name. And was there any, when was this back in the 80s, 90s? Yeah, 1982. Okay. I would imagine this wasn't very well-known or common thing at the time. No. Was there a medical procedure that you had to go through? Yeah, I was evaluated by a psychologist and then he referred me to a family doctor who

prescribe the hormones. I guess you could call an evaluation. He wanted to be sure that, you know, this is something I really wanted to do. There wasn't really the why did you want to do this or any of that. It's just like, okay, well, let me get you to this doctor and he'll give you the hormones for it. And how did that affect you? Taking the hormones? Yeah, yeah.

So at first it seemed slow. But then within three months, you know, my voice had dropped. and starting to have the peach fuzz for the beard and all of that. And then eventually I started having male pattern baldness. And I worked out. So I actually, honestly, took a little bit extra so I could get big, you know, as I worked out. As you were transitioning, did you ever have any moments of regret at this point, or were you still on board for it?

I don't think through the whole time that I lived as a man I had any regret. because I thought I was free. I thought living this way was where I was supposed to be my entire life. So how long did you continue in this pattern? I lived as a man for 11 years. Okay. So that would have gotten you to age 30? Yep.

And then what changed your mind? Well, actually, an encounter with Jesus. So four years prior to that, I believe that he started working on my heart to bring me out of that. And he called to me and he said, will you now? Will you now? And I took this inventory of my life and I thought, I haven't got anything to lose, nothing holding me back. So I said yes.

And I jumped in to spending more time in the Word and at church and getting more involved in the church. And then at the end of that four years, which would have been the end of the 11, I was confronted by my church and they asked me who I was. And I told them, well, I'm a woman living as a man. and the Holy Spirit blew into me. And when that happened, I realized, oh, I need to go back to being the woman that God created me to be

and step down from all these ministries. Wow. Were you raised in the church? I was raised Lutheran, so I would say sort of. I knew who God was, but I didn't really follow him necessarily. So your upbringing would have taught you that this was not right to live as the opposite sex? Yeah, but, you know, when you're so driven by it,

It's hard to know that that's true. So really it was your encounter with Christ and your faith that brought you out of transgenderism. Yeah, yeah. Him showing me that this is not the best for you. This is not how I created you. So how is your relationship with God shaped your identity from that time onward? Well, in the beginning, I spent lots of time with him, just saying, I don't know what I'm doing. What is this supposed to be like?

and because of the way I looked from the effects of the hormones, I was like, okay, so Lord, you need to change all of this. You need to take away the beard. You need to grow my hair back. I cried out for all these physical changes. And finally the Lord said to me, I don't care about those things. I'm really after your heart. And that's when I realized, okay, so there's a heart change that needs to happen.

So it was just continuing to spend time with him and realizing that who he created, me to be as good. The word said it was good. You know, he created male and female and they were very good. And so it was learning how to embrace that. And then also addressing the lies that I believed that pushed me to be a man. Part of it was, you know, growing up in a dysfunctional family, I believe that women were hated, women were weak, women were vulnerable. And I didn't want that. You know, I didn't want to grow up and be those things. And so being a man was the only other option that I felt was good. And I'd be able to survive that. And as you've embraced being a woman, have you found yourself becoming more at peace in that? Because we hear, we've been hearing some

stories of people who, you know, say they transitioned to the other gender because they always felt that they were at odds with their body. Have you felt more at peace in being a woman? Yeah, I would say that as I, as I've understood the truth about who I am and how we're created and how he's wired me, there is. You know, when I come into agreement and I understand the lies that drove me to that, then it's able, then I'm able to see, you know, what the Lord is calling me to. Again, it wasn't the battle between the light and the darkness. It was the battle between the truth and the lie. And really recognizing what is that lie? And then finding the truth to replace that lie.

So it was confronting the lie, basically, and going, okay, so then what is the truth of that? And then how do I embrace that? How do I make that part of my life? And that was, again, coming back to my relationship with the Lord and trusting him that he knew what he was talking about. Well, there's a push nowadays to get children younger and younger to think in terms of gender identity and to try to figure out their own gender irrespective to their body.

And it puts a lot of pressure on kids. And we're hearing stories come out of kids transitioning, going through puberty blockers. What would you say to a young kid who's confused about their gender and is considering this. Sure. I think rather than addressing that symptom, you know, because really that's all it is

is a symptom of a deeper, something that's going on, and it's trying to look past and asking the why, why do you want to live as a man? Why do you think that that's better? Why do you think it's safer? Why is your gender bad?

You know, and exploring what is the ideas around that and then addressing those things? Because usually it's, you know, a place of, trauma that or perceived trauma for them that says, oh, this is not good. Who I am is not good and detaching from that and actually becoming hateful of your own self. That was one of the things I really had to deal with was deep, deep self-hatred just because, you know, I was a woman. And so it's looking at that in those young kids. And then I think also it's kind of like that

wait and see. Yeah, they're struggling now as five, you know, because gender dysphoria does start very, very young, but it's seeing how they grow up. You know, where are you at in age 12? Because some of the kids, you know, girls, especially when they've been heavy-duty tomboys, when they reach 15-16, and they're like, no, I want to be a girl. I like being a girl. Right. They totally grow out of that. Yeah, that's something that, a point that often gets missed in the debate is that you're putting young kids before puberty on puberty blockers. Well, after puberty, they might change their mind. They're still developing. That's right. That's right. Lawmakers are considering gender identity now, thinking in terms of that, thinking in terms of transgender status.

What would you say to lawmakers who are considering bills that would allow, you know, the opposite gender to enter bathrooms, say, in schools? We've heard about boys identifying as girls, going into girls' bathrooms, locker rooms. What would you say to lawmakers who are thinking about this? Well, I guess my question for them would be, have you considered the emotional health? You know, have you looked at these kids emotionally? Yeah, they're saying this is what I feel, but your feelings can lie to you, and I can tell you that. They lie to you.

The way you feel is not always the truth. But it's, they need to look underneath all of that. I feel that I'm a boy. Okay, why do you feel that you're a boy? I would encourage them to look at, you know, do you have the data around the emotional, health of that child, you know, and looking at the data for those who have already gone through that and have regret and the emotional trauma that they've gone through, and now they can't really change back necessarily or fully change back. So I would encourage them, you need to look

beyond the symptoms and you need to get to the cause. What is the root cause of that? Before you pass any laws about gender identity and boys going into girls' bathroom, because I think that also produces predatory habits. You know, the boys that realize, oh, I can say I'm a girl and go into the girl's bathroom, you know, we have predators among us too, you know. So they just need to look beyond the symptom. Well, Kathy Grace, really appreciate you sharing from your story and for your time today. Absolutely. Thank you.

It's because of support from listeners like you that we can continue to produce podcasts like Heritage Explains and SCOTUS 101, and you can help us keep it up by going to www. www.com.org slash podcast today to make your tax-deductible gift. We're joined today on the Daily Signal podcast by Dr. Andre van Moll. He is a board-certified family physician and private practice and a former U.S. Naval Officer. Dr. Van Moll also serves on the boards of Memorial Revolution, the Bethel Church of Reading, and is the co-chair of the American College of Pediatricians Committee on Adolescence Sexuality. He also writes and speaks about bioethics and Christian apologetics

and speaks also about transgenderism and that teenagers and young adults today. Dr. Van Mell, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for having me. So to start off, what led you to take part in this conversation and research about transgenderism in teens? Well, I've had a lifelong interest in bioethics as a whole, you know, culture of life, family flourishing. And honestly, until about three years ago, I thought this was the topic I could skip. I thought surely people understand this and they can see through it.

But again, about three years ago was when I saw I was wrong. And that's when I started writing, researching, and working with certain groups and task forces on this. So with all you've done, how do we educate children and teens as this is becoming more part of the conversation, transgenderism, gender, confusion, and teens and even children. children questioning their gender? Yeah, you know, it's a thing to be disentangled. It's multi-factor, and therefore there's multiple parts to the answer. One is separating sex from gender.

I mean, sex is biologic, it's hardcore physical reality, it is definable, identifiable, and it's in fact imprinted on every nucleated cell in someone's body from the time of conception. You know, your sex is determined. Gender, you know, it's an ideological term. And it's also language leveraged against biology. So I like to say nouns have gender, people have a sex. You know, for your younger kids, just affirming who they are, you know, the way they're made. And understanding, like, for example, you know, anything a girl does is a girl doing something.

It doesn't mean something else. Anything a boy does, is a boy doing something. It doesn't mean something else. Now, you know, for the actual issue of gender dysphoria, that's a psychological diagnosis, right? That's a person's great discomfort with their biological sex. Whereas transgenderism is an overarching ideology. So that's what reaches out and gets people. And, you know, some kids are more at risk than others.

We see a high amount of, you know, comorbidities, as we say, the presence of psychological diagnoses. In kids who have gender dysphoria, we see neurodevelopmental. problems. We know that kids with autism spectrum disorder are particularly vulnerable. And, you know, these are problems to be recognized so that they can be dealt with. For a parent who sees, and of course you usually find out about it kind of late, that your kids involved, you keep the lines of conversation open. You ask honest questions. No voice raising, no demands. You know, I love you and I accept you the way you are. Can you please tell me how you came to this decision, you know, who has been helping you? Did someone give you a diagnosis? If you can keep those calm and open and be what

Walt Hire calls a listening sponge, you can get a lot of information you won't get getting upset. And of course, the tendency is going to be to get upset for obvious reasons. But so long as the communication lines are open, that's a big help. As a doctor, what would your advice be to parents if their child says he is really a girl or she is really a boy? What would you say is the first thing parents should do in a situation like that? Don't get in a fight. Don't try to prove them wrong. That's where the questions and the listening sponge thing start. We care about you and we're really interested in finding out more.

Tell us all you can. How did you come to this decision? you know, how did you learn this about yourself? Again, was someone helping you? That's a good way of extracting, you know, what groups have been involved. For, you know, the whole rapid onset gender dysphoria, the idea that a teen or a tween who'd never showed any sign of gender dysphoria before now comes out and says, oh, you know, mom and dad, I'm trans.

They tend to have friends that have come out. They tend to be deeply involved. And by the way, this was noticed by Dr. Lisa Littman in a 2018 survey on parents of rapid onset gender dysphoria kids. Heavy involvement in the web, and of course that gets darker and darker depending on where they look. They become distrustful of any friends who aren't trans or who aren't affirming and they don't want to accept any information that didn't come from trans-approved sources. So again, getting in a TIF is not going to help at that point. It's asking honest questions.

letting them know they're loved and accepted and just calm questions and being a listening sponge to find out where to go. There are, of course, big resources available. American College of Pediatricians at acpids.org has a whole page on this and family resources. And a national resource just came available that I was part of the team that helped edit

called the Parents Resource Guide. That's available at gender resource guide.com. pretty much I think every household with kids should have a copy of that. It's easy to read. It's well organized. It has the answers you're looking for. Well, thank you for that resource. As parents try to speak to their children, have calm conversations if this comes up,

if a child is confused about their gender, and as parents try to prepare to love them but also educate them on what the risks are to transition, as a doctor, what are some of the drawbacks and the risks of transitioning genders and what should they be prepared for? Yeah, keep in mind what we call now, you know, gender affirmation therapy is entirely experimental. The international standard of care is called watchful waiting, and that does not mean doing nothing. Watchful waiting also implies that there's psychological evaluations going on of the person, as well as their families, because there are very likely to be issues in both.

Watchful waiting is the standard of care. Gender affirmation therapy is what's experimental. and gender dysphoria overwhelmingly goes away on its own by adulthood. It's called desistence and it's over 85% of the time it'll do that, especially with the right support. But in terms of someone who chooses to go on puberty blockers and then cross-sex hormones, even without the sex reassignment surgery, which they like to call gender affirmation or gender confirmation surgery, you see how the language is even, you know, ideologically slanted to make you think a certain way. Puberty blocking followed by cross-sex hormones generally means sterility.

It means those sex organs aren't even going to develop well. You've got a situation of menopause in a teen girl because of this or guys that are going to have sexual function problems. Increased risk of blood clots, heart attacks, strokes, poor bone development because those pubertal years are when a person's bones gain their greatest amount of density. And that's not going to happen with puberty blockers. Also, there's going to be a stunting of brain development, and a person's brain's not fully developed until they're 23 to 25. Just a raft of possible problems.

And, you know, a person can change their mind later, but the problem is what's gone is gone. And we want to help prevent that kind of damage. There's better things we can do for kids with gender dysphoria than chemical crustration and mutilating surgery. Speaking of what we can do, for those who have made that change and if switched genders have had surgeries, hormone blockers, how do we help those who want to detransition? The main support is actually going to be what's in the heart, mind, and spirit, right? Tell them that they're of great value. Again, this whole created in the image of God and deeply loved is a profound reality that we are there to walk with you through this, however it goes. you're not alone, don't give up.

So you're loved, you're not alone, don't give up. And then comes the medical and psychological part. The problem, of course, is that it would appear that a majority of the people with regret, the last people they want to talk to, is doctors and mental health experts because why they got them there in the first place. So that's kind of a hurdle.

Where are doctors specifically on the issue of children changing genders and as well, medical organizations? as a whole. Do doctors feel the ability to speak their minds on this issue and concerns they have, or do they feel muzzled? You can rest assured. Doctors do not, as a psychologist as well. They do not feel it's the open marketplace of free ideas. People are operating under the fear of losing their jobs. And if not their jobs, the knowledge that you will likely be immediately targeted by the activists in your life will be made miserable. So yeah, it's not an open market of free ideas. Well, it's not what the facts is. about what science is supposed to be. It is an intimidation, and it was designed to be an intimidation type situation.

Looking at this from a more holistic perspective, how has the erosion of the definitions of male and female led to actually more destruction than liberation? Well, we know that God created us male and female. And even for someone who's approaching this as an atheist, male and female or biological reality, you know, right down to conception. So when you're living in a state of denial about who you are, what you're supposed to be and where you're supposed to go now become derailed.

So it's a very multifactorial assault not just on the person, but on the family, and therefore on civilization as a whole. Dr. Andre van Ruhl, thank you so much for being with us today on the Daily Signal podcast. Thank you much. That's it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to the Daily Signal podcast brought to you from the Robert H. Bruce, Radio, Studio at the Heritage Foundation. Please be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, or Spotify, and please

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