The Daily Signal - How Minnesota Catholics and Lutherans Teamed Up Together to Open Their Churches

Episode Date: May 28, 2020

Last week, Catholic bishops in Minnesota and Lutherans in the Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod united to go against Gov. Tim Walz of Minnesota’s stringent order that only allowed 10 people at church services. Diana Verm, senior counsel with Becket Law, joins The Daily Signal Podcast to discuss the stand they took that brought Walz back to the negotiating table, and her law firm’s work on behalf of faith leaders in the state. Listen to the podcast, or read the lightly edited transcript below. We also cover these stories: Secretary of State Mike Pompeo tweets "Hong Kong is no longer autonomous from China, given facts on the ground." President Trump made threats to regulate or even close down social media platforms after Twitter added a fact check label to two of the president’s tweets.  Rep. Liz Cheney, R-Wyo., says President Donald Trump should stop tweeting about Joe Scarborough, host of MSNBC’s “Morning Joe,” implying that Scarborough may have murdered an aide who worked in his office. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Thursday, May 28. I'm Virginia Allen. And I'm Richard Zildjudis. Last week, Catholic bishops in Minnesota and a number of Lutherans in the Lutheran Church Synod joined forces to go against the governor of Minnesota's stringent stay-at-home order that only allowed 10 people at church services. Diana Verm, Senior Counsel with Beckett Law, joins me on the Daily Signal podcast today to talk about what happened and her law firm's

work on behalf of faith leaders in the state. Don't forget, if you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure to leave a review or a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts and encourage others to subscribe. Now, under our top news. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Wednesday that Hong Kong is no longer a self-governing entity from China. On Wednesday, Pompeo tweeted, today I reported to Congress that Hong Kong is no longer autonomous from China, given facts on the ground. The United States stands with the people of Hong Kong. His remarks come as China pursues a so-called national security law that is sparking protests across Hong Kong. It is expected China will pass the law. In his statement, Pompeo said, after careful study of developments over the reporting period,

I certified to Congress today that Hong Kong does not continue to warrant treatment under United States laws and under United States laws in the same manner as U.S. laws were applied to Hong Kong before July 1997. No reasonable person can assert today that Hong Kong maintains a high degree of autonomy from China, given facts on the ground. President Trump made threats Wednesday to regulate or even close down. Social media platforms after Twitter added a fact-check label to two of the president's tweets. Earlier this week, Trump tweeted against mail-in voting, specifically California's plan to mail a ballot to every resident in the state. After Twitter added a

warning label to the president's tweet, Trump responded via Twitter saying, Republicans feel that social media platforms totally silence conservatives' voices. We will strongly regulate or even close them down before we can ever allow this to happen. We saw what they attempted to do and failed in 2016. We can't let a sophisticated version of that happen again, just like we can't let large-scale mail-in ballots take root in our country. It would be a free-for-all on cheating, forgery, and the theft of ballots. Whoever cheated the most would win. Likewise, social media, clean up your act now. Wyoming Congressman Liz Cheney says President Trump should stop tweeting about Joe Scarborough, host of MSNBC's Morning Joe,

implying that Scarborough may have murdered an aide who worked in his office when he represented the state of Florida from 1995 to 2001. Following an outdoor press briefing at the Capitol, Cheney told reporters, according to the Hill, I do think the president should stop tweeting about Joe Scarbro. I think we're in the middle of a pandemic. He's the commander-in-chief of this nation, and it's causing great pain to the family of the young woman who died.

so I would urge him to stop it. The sister of George Floyd is calling for further action to be taken against the police officers responsible for her brother's death. On Monday, a white Minneapolis police officer pinned Floyd, an African American to the ground, pressing his knee against Floyd's neck. Floyd later died that same night. The four police officers involved in the situation have been fired. Bridget Floyd, George Floyd's sister, said on the, Today Show Wednesday, quote, I would like those officers to be charged with murder because that's exactly what they did. She also said, they murdered my brother. He was crying for help. I don't need them to be

suspended and able to work in another state or another county. Their license should be taken away. Their job should be taken away. And they should be put in jail for murder. Governor Steve Sisalik of Nevada, a Democrat, is modifying restrictions for churches in his state after the Department of Justice said in a letter that he was treating churches unequally. A letter from the DOJ to Cicic read, we understand these directives were issued in the midst of an uncertain situation, which may have required quick decisions based on changing information. We were concerned, however, that the flat prohibition against 10 or more persons gathering for in-person worship services, regardless of whether they maintain social distancing guidelines,

impermissibly treats religious and non-religious organizations unequally. The rules previously only let 10 people attend services, but now allow for 50 people to be in attendance. Mental health is becoming a greater concern as the coronavirus continues to leave many Americans living in isolation and without work. A new Census Bureau survey conducted between May 7 and 12th of 42,000 Americans revealed that 24% percent of the participants are showing signs of depression and 30% are struggling with anxiety. The survey revealed that feelings of anxiety and depression are highest among women, young people, and the poor. A Washington Post story analyzing some of the survey's data noted that before COVID-19, 25% of adults in America experienced some form of depressed moods,

but that number has since risen to 50% now. Maria O'Quendo, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania, said, per the Washington Post, that it's understandable, given what's happening. It would be strange if you didn't feel anxious and depressed. Now stay tuned for my conversation with Beckett lawyer, Diana Verm, on how Minnesota Catholics and Lutherans teamed up together to open their churches. At the Daily Signal, we want to make sure you and your family are receiving the most accurate information about the coronavirus. Here's an important message from First Lady Melania Trump. To all of our medical personnel and other frontline responders, on behalf of a grateful nation, thank you.

The president and I appreciate all that you're doing to keep the people of our country healthy and safe. In the most difficult of times, the United States never fails to rise to the occasion with both unity and strength. It is because of you that the people of America are receiving the care and treatment they need. We stand united with you, and we salute your courageous and compassionate efforts. Our prayers are with all who are fighting this invisible enemy, COVID-19. I am joined today on the Daily Signal podcast by Diana Verm. She's Senior Counsel with

Beckett Law, whose work has included domestic and international litigation, including defending the Pledge of Allegiance and Public Schools. Diana, it's great to have you. on the Daily Signal podcast. Hi, Rachel. Thanks so much for having me. Well, thank you so much for being with us. So Catholics and a number of Lutherans in the Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod had joined forces to go against the governor of Minnesota's stringent state home order to only allow 10 people at church services. And subsequently, Governor Tim Maltz issued another executive order on Wednesday limiting religious services. Before we go into what the governor's change of mind did. Can you talk about these church leaders and why they chose to take this public stand against

the governor? So these churches have been working hard throughout the pandemic to love their neighbors, to protect their communities from the spread of illness. They saw the threat. They voluntarily closed their worship services and they moved to online worship before the governor required it. And they've been working with the governor and his administration to develop protocols as they can resume worship safely. So they were very disappointed when, May 13th, the governor issued a new rule that allowed malls and other retail to begin opening at 50% capacity, but continued to restrict churches to 10-person worship services. And the governor published a plan for restaurants and salons and tattoo parlors to be opened by June 1st,

but not churches. So on Wednesday, May 20th, the governor had his press conference where he said, here's the plan for reopening restaurants. These things are so important to our lives. they're so essential in our lives. We really need restaurants and bars to be reopened, but didn't say anything about churches. The guidance for churches said churches are at the back of the line for reopening. There was no timeline for them. So at this point, the churches had been reaching out to the governor. They had been doing their best to find ways to reopen safely.

They realized the governor was not going to work with them, so they sent him a letter saying, we are planning to reopen on May 26th in advance of Pentecost Sunday. I'm a lawyer at the Becker Fund, and we sent a letter to the governor as well, explaining the legal problems with opening retail and other things, but not churches. But the governor did come to the negotiating table, and he did change the rule. Can you talk a little bit about two? Since you mentioned the frustration behind there being inconsistencies with commerce and other institutions having the ability to operate but not churches,

did you see inconsistencies there and what were pastors and parishers saying about that as well? It is really frustrating for these churches when they, to be working so hard for their communities and to trying to find creative ways to serve their communities online, remotely with social distancing, and to be really part of the efforts to protect people and to support the economy during this crisis. And then to be told it's safe for malls to reopen. and the Mall of America can open a 50% capacity, but it's not safe for churches to reopen for more than 10 people to be in the cathedral in Minneapolis.

So Minneapolis, St. Paul. So it is very frustrating, but it's also unconstitutional, right? Like the First Amendment says that you have to treat, you can't treat churches with special disability. And so these churches we're seeing, okay, we're trying to find ways to serve our community, but we're being prevented from doing that. and our constitutional rights are at issue here.

So they told the governor, we're going to start worshiping again with their without your blessing. And fortunately, the governor was willing to work with them once they made that announcement and changed the rule to allow churches to open now at 25% capacity. Well, in your work representing this and being on this case with Minnesota churches, what kinds of reasons were the church leaders giving about why they wanted to reopen? Did any of them or their stories about their parishioners needing to go to church, particular linger in your mind? For one thing, I mean, these churches are sacramental churches.

So they can't minister to the needs of their flocks without being able to administer the sacrament. So this is something that they were willing to do for a short time. It was a very painful decision for them to make, but they were willing to do it to love their neighbors. But when the governor is saying, oh, it's okay for retail. And, you know, retail is such an important part of our lives. We need to be able to get back to restaurants and bars.

Those are very special things to us, but ignoring churches altogether, that's an issue. But also, it's not good for people to be at home, and these churches want to be able to serve their community. So in some places in Minnesota, suicide hotlines saw a spike as high as 300%. Domestic violence calls were way up. So the church is saying we want to be able to respond to this, and we need to be able to do that in person. Dana, can you talk a little bit about some of the restrictive guidelines, the governor had put in place before he released this modified order? So before the modified order, churches were only allowed to meet with 10 people in a service

at a time. So no matter how large the building, 11 people were not allowed in the same building. The same restriction was placed on outdoor services. So no outdoor services more than 10, but restaurants were immediately allowed to open to serve people outdoors with up to 50 people, I think outside. At the height of the crisis, you can see some justification for requiring everyone to stay home. We don't know what's going on. This is the safest thing we can do. But when you start to reopen other things, the restriction on churches was just very frustrating. What is that reopening plan for these Minnesota churches? Can you kind of go into how they are being accommodating and working with the governor to open safely, but also be able to offer? for church and the sacraments to their parishners. The reopening plan starts today.

The executive ordered allowing churches to reopen starts today May 27th. And it requires that churches need at 25% capacity of the fire code. So it's many fewer people in the churches. And churches are required to submit their protocols, to have protocols in place. So social distancing, people are not sitting within six feet of people outside of the same household. Reduced singing, so no singing together and no common items that people are touching in the churches. So these are protocols that the churches submitted to the governor well before he changed the order. And then they worked with the governor to come up with a solution once he would.

willing to talk to them. Looking at this from just a more all-encompassing perspective of what's happened since the coronavirus pandemic started, do you think that First Amendment rights have been infringed on during this time? I think the main infringement on First Amendment rights that we've seen that we're seeing today is where locations, jurisdictions start to reopen, but they leave churches behind. So there are a handful of states that are continuing to do that and maybe some local governments as well, where they're allowing retail to start opening and they're leaving churches behind.

And that's a very clear infringement on First Amendment rights when you're treating churches with special disabilities and allowing them to, forcing them to stay closed when the local malls are opening. In this case, it was tattoo parlors, dog grooming facilities, things like that, but not churches. Well, on that note, Diana, so we talked a lot about Minnesota,

and I know California also made news for originally treating churches in a very different way than businesses were treated, although Governor Newsom just released new permissions. So what about other states besides California and Minnesota? Are you aware of any other states where religious services have been discriminated against? Sure. So there are a number of states where churches are still being treated differently, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington. So there are churches, there are states that have not listened to the churches, but we hope that this model in Minnesota, where the governor has listened to the churches and been willing to work with them, we hope that that would be something that those jurisdictions can look at and see as a model for dialogue with churches.

This isn't a situation where the churches are trying to buck the system. They want to work with the government to keep people safe, to reopen in a cooperative manner. They want to keep people safe. So this is not, they're trying to honor, they're trying to respect their constitutional rights and also serve their communities in a helpful way. President Trump had said last week that churches should be allowed to reopen and does what he said change the legal calculus at all? Well, I think, so along with his announcement, the CDC issued new guidelines for churches. When local governments restrict churches, if you're going to restrict religious worship meeting in person, you have to have a really good reason to do it. it under the Constitution. It has to be a very compelling interest and it has to be the least

restrictive way of doing that. And when you have CDC guidelines from the federal government saying, here's a way that you can do this safely, it's hard to say that churches can't be meeting at all. So I think that makes, that undermines a lot of the legal arguments that local governments have. And Diana, how would you say that other faith leaders should respond if the governor of their state isn't respecting their free exercise of religion? I think, so you have seen some at some churches file lawsuits, and that's one way to address constitutional rights. I think in all situations, litigation at the last resort, you try, all of these situations

that I'm aware of, churches have tried to work with their local governments to get them to see the constitutional issues. and, you know, all these officials were to uphold the Constitution. So it is, you know, it is part of their job description to protect the constitutional rights of churches. So, you know, I think it's good for churches to dialogue with the local officials. And then, you know, if there's a case where it's really religious discrimination, then a lawsuit is an option. As a lawyer and someone who is working on these cases and, working on protecting free exercise of religion. What would you say to a pastor who feels

conflicted about, you know, maybe he is in one of these states where their religious liberty isn't being respected or they're having these stringent rules? And he's also trying to balance like, you know, wanting to be there for his parish. What would you say to pastors like this? I know there are a lot of them across the country. Yeah, I think what, I mean, a lot of pastors have in working with their like their denominations and joining together. I think there's there's safety in numbers. It's helpful to to be working with other other churches that in your area. And I think so like a lot of these churches, it's it's a lot of work to do to meet all the protocols that are in place that are are there for safety, even, you know, even that are

potentially constitutionally required. And so a lot of churches are saying, okay, we're not going to reopen just yet. Like we, even if we're allowed to, we're going to wait. And so I think that's one option for a local pastor, but also reach out to, reach out to us at the Beckett Fund. There's other law firms out there that are doing great work on this. There's lawsuits that have been filed by First Liberty and the Alliance and defending freedom.

So there's, there are resources out there. Well, Diana, thank you so much for joining us on the Daily Signal podcast and breaking the sound for us. Thanks so much, Rachel. It's good to talk with you. And that will do it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to The Daily Signal podcast. We do appreciate your patience as we record remotely during these weeks. Please be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or Spotify. And please leave us a review or a rating on Apple Podcasts and give us your feedback. Stay healthy and we will be back with you all tomorrow. The Daily Signal podcast is brought to you by more than half a million members of

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