The Daily Signal - Illegal Immigration Linked With Organized Crime, Border Expert Says

Episode Date: March 29, 2021

A direct link exists between criminal organizations and illegal immigration, former federal prosecutor Josh Jones says.  Jones, now senior fellow in border security at Texas Public Policy Foundation, joins “The Daily Signal Podcast” to discuss his recent report, “Joined at the Hip: Organized Crime and Illegal Immigration." Jones explains how gangs and other criminal groups in El Salvador, Honduras, and Guatemala lead illegal immigrants to the border and often exploit the migrants for their own profit.  Also on today’s show, we read your letters to the editor and share a "good news story" about a foster child who was adopted by his teacher.  Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, March 29th. I'm Robert Blewe. And I'm Virginia Allen. On today's show, I talk with Josh Jones, a senior fellow in border security at the Texas Public Policy Foundation and a former prosecutor with the U.S. Department of Justice. We discussed the connection between illegal immigration and criminal organizations. We also read your letters to the editor and share a good news story about a foster child who was just adopted by his teacher. Before we get to today's show, we want to tell you about one of the most popular resources on the Heritage Foundation website, the Guide to the Constitution. More than 100 scholars have contributed to create a unique line-by-line analysis of our Constitution.

The guide is intended to provide a brief and accurate explanation of each clause of the Constitution as envisioned by the framers and as applied in contemporary law. There has never been a more important time to have an understanding of our founding document. So if you want to learn more about the Constitution, go ahead and visit heritage.org slash constitution or simply search for Heritage Guide to the Constitution. Now stay tuned for today's show coming up next. I am joined by Josh Jones, a senior fellow in border security at the Texas Public Policy Foundation and a former prosecutor with the U.S. Department of Justice. Mr. Jones, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me, Virginia. So today we are talking about a subject that is on the minds of many, many Americans, and that is immigration, illegal immigration. And you have just recently authored a study called Joined at the Hip, Organized Crime, and Illegal Immigration. So let's begin by talking about what role criminal organizations and gangs do play in illegal immigration. Sure. So there's a distinction between transnational gangs and transnational criminal organizations. The transnational gangs are what we refer to as transnational gangs are gangs that come out primarily of El Salvador, and their MS-13 and 18th Street are the two primary gangs.

Those gains control territory in what we call the Northern Triangle countries, which are Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras. And oftentimes the reason that migrants join these caravans or move up toward the United States using a smuggler is because of the violence caused by the transnational gangs in their home countries. Then as you move into Mexico, you know, obviously there are cartels or what we call transnational criminal organizations. And these are much larger, much more complex criminal organizations that function more like. businesses or corporations. They too control territory throughout Mexico. As migrant caravans come north, they tax the traffickers to move the caravans through their territory.

And oftentimes there's some interplay to at the U.S. border where the transnational criminal organizations will use the migrant caravans to further their drug trafficking operations into the United States. So it's basically every step of the way from the southwest border down to the Northern Triangle, you're pretty much on territory, either controlled by gangs or by cartels. So these individuals in countries that you mentioned, El Salvador or Honduras and Guatemala, they're wanting to leave their country because of the violence. But then in turn, the same individuals who are responsible for furthering that violence are also the ones. that are really deeply entrenched in a part of this process of individuals migrating and getting across the border illegally, correct?

That's correct. And it's not just violence. It's economic opportunity. They see economic opportunity in the United States that they don't have down there. But those two things are intertwined in Central America, the economic opportunity, or the lack thereof and the violence or the lack of security in those countries. So how do local law enforcement and enforcement and government officials interact with these criminal groups, with these gangs. I mean, do they have any

power to stop the violence? Do they try to engage to stop the violence? In Latin America, the criminal justice systems are not very well developed. They're far behind what we have here in the United States. And oftentimes, corruption is a huge, huge problem down there, particularly when we're talking about those countries, particularly in Honduras, and Mexico and to a lesser stint also in Guatemala and El Salvador. So the criminal justice systems really are not capable of controlling the violent crime that the gains perpetrate down there. And in El Salvador, for example, instead of trying to take enforcement action against

MS-13, the government actually negotiates with the gangs in order to reduce violence, which is not a great scenario. it's not a great long-term solution to a crime problem. Wow. And talk a little bit more. You mentioned that economic impact, but talk a little bit more about how that organized crime does directly impact the economic opportunity of, you know, a single mom or, you know,

a family that's, you know, just trying to make ends meet. Sure. So, as I said, these gains control territory in the Northern Triangle countries. And what they'll do in their territory is, is actually tax the people who are trying to live there. So in addition to being taxed by their federal governments down there, they're also taxed by the gangs that control their territories. And the economic development is way behind what we have here in the United States.

So the job market's really not there to support the populations down there. So they're kind of in a situation where it's really hard to find jobs. and for those who can find jobs, they are taxed by the local street gangs. So oftentimes the reason to come to the United States is just to avoid, A, to avoid gangs and B, to come to a place where they can actually find a job. Wow. What happens if those individuals can't pay the taxes that are demanded of them of these gangs? Oftentimes, the gangs resort to violence. They resort to extortion, kidnapping, They do wherever they can to squeeze money out of the people in their territory.

And another thing, too, I think in El Salvador and I think also in Honduras, the biggest part of their gross domestic product is actually remittances coming from the United States. So they'll have family members in the United States that have migrated either legally or illegally, and the migrants will send money down to their family members in El Salvador. And oftentimes that's money used to pay the local gains so that the gains will leave them along. Yeah, yeah. So I want to understand a little bit more about, you know, the kind of the journey that these individuals take as they're seeking to get to the U.S. Could you explain, and you mentioned this in your piece, but could you explain a bit about the difference between smuggling and trafficking?

And do we know percentage-wise how many illegal immigrants are being smuggled over the border versus trafficked over? So when I use those words in this case, the immigrants that moved by smuggling or by hiring smugglers are those who will pay, they're typically a very small organization, trafficking organization, that they'll pay anywhere from $2,000 to $10,000, usually to be moved from Central America up into the United States. and the people that they're paying, the smugglers have connections throughout that route so they can make it possible. And these days, they can almost guarantee entry because especially if it's an undocumented child coming across because the Biden administration

is letting all the undocumented children, aliens, come into the U.S. A trafficker, on the other hand, typically is moving people involuntarily. And so they would be your sex traffickers, your people who are

in the business of force labor. And so they are oftentimes more intertwined with the criminal organizations along that route, particularly in Mexico. Okay. And for those arriving at the border right now,

you know, we're seeing that thousands of migrants are arriving at our southern border daily right now. How many of those people used a criminal organization to get them to the border, worked with a criminal organization? Well, in a way, they're all criminal organizations. The smugglers are moving people into the country illegally, and they're profiting from it. So they, in a sense, they are criminal organizations as well. And most of them are being smuggled across. Most of them are hiring trafficking organizations to use their connections to smuggle them up to the border and then to instruct them on how to best get across the border, which sometimes evolves just coming in and

crossing the bridge and claiming asylum. And sometimes it means trying to go across the Rio Grande River, or sometimes it means just going through open desert. And how much are these individuals paying the smuggling groups to get them across? Is there some exchange of good services? Usually if we're talking about a smuggling group, it's a flat fee. And we've heard that fee can run anywhere between $2 or $3,000 up to $10,000. And that normally the price fluctuades by where the migrant is originating. So if a migrant comes from outside Central America, oftentimes migrants from Asia trying to get to the United States will first come to Central America or South America and then be moved up.

move themselves up in a caravan or by using a smuggler. If you're Asian, you're paying over $10,000, you're paying upwards of $20,000 or $30,000. If you're Central American where obviously they probably can't afford that, they're paying much less. And then kind of the dark side of it too is that when migrants can't pay, that's when the smugglers or the traffickers find other ways of making money off of them, which is where sex trafficking comes in or forced labor comes in. Okay. Well, and I know in your study you also talk a little bit about how these individuals are often used for drug trafficking. Could you explain that?

Sure. There are some scenarios that we've heard kind of anecdotally from drug traffickers themselves or from people who have seen this. So I've experienced this, the Border Patrol guys. At times when there's a very large migrant caravan moving up, through a cartels territory, they will have, they'll instruct the caravan to go in one direction, and the CBP in that area is going to be directed toward the caravan coming up in one area, and then they'll move drug shimmets in an opposite area, a different area, where they know that the Border Patrol officers are not going to be there.

In other cases, we've heard of the drug trafficking organizations on the border, working with the migrants coming up with the smugglers where they will allow them to go through, but they'll instruct them to carry backpacks or Matilla, as the Spanish word for it. And the backpacks will be full of methamphetamine or cocaine or heroin. And then they'll tell them once they get to the United States to go to a certain point at a certain time and hand the drugs or the backpacks over to one of the people in the United States. So let's talk a little bit about solutions. Right now we are looking at a crisis at our border.

So what actions should the Biden administration take today to keep migrants from entering the country illegally? I think the short term most important thing that the Biden administration can begin to do better is just messaging. Through the Biden campaign when he was running for president, he was talking, he was using words like amnesty. and he was essentially using a vernacular that's going to signal to Central America that if he's elected president, it's going to be time to come up because the gates are going to be open, the border is going to be open. So that actually started before he became president. Once he becomes president, one of the first things he does is undo a lot of President Trump's immigration policy,

which in a lot of ways was pretty sensible. And so that furthers that message, echoes that message, that the borders open, the gates were open to come on up. And then they can, and then Secretary Mayorkas here this past Sunday, but began to change the messaging a bit by saying the borders closed. It's not time yet, and they still use the word yet, which would indicate there will be a time of the future when it would be okay from them to come up. And again, the messaging is just not strong enough that the border is not, in fact, open. And in fact, the border never will be truly open in the sense that people will be able to come into the United States and accounted for. I think that messaging has to become stronger and more consistent from the Biden administration. And looking kind of forward, one thing that they could do, Biden could do that they have talked about,

is create a process for handling asylum claims in Central America so that the migrants don't have to make that very dangerous journey up to the United States to file. They can file asylum from where they are. And if very few asylum claims from Central America get granted, but if they're in the 5% or 10% that do get granted, then that can be handled where they are. And if they are granted to asylum, then they can make that journey up to the United States knowing that when they get the, to the border they'll be allowed across. I think long-term, the solution is to work with the Central American countries, and Biden has talked about doing this, to improve security down there, to reform their criminal justice systems, to make it safer to live in those countries

so that fewer people will be wanting to leave to come to the United States. one thing that I disagree with is the kind of the direct payments to the countries he's proposed essentially a $4 billion blank check that he's kind of send to the Central American countries. And the problem is that these are very corrupt governments down there. Yeah. I think a better approach would be to incentivize investment by U.S. corporations down there so that we can try to get kind of capital down into Central America so that our corporations can create create jobs down there and start to build their economy that way. Yeah.

I was going to ask you about that because ultimately it seems like that would be the solution is to strengthen these nations so that individuals don't want to leave so that they can support their family so that they can feel safe so that they can really provide, have jobs. And the best way to do that we so often see is, you know, through industry, through creating those economic opportunities. I think that's absolutely the long-term solution is to build up. Central America. And again, the Biden administration is is talking in the right way in that regard. But I just I don't think direct payments to the corrupt garments is going to get it done.

I think we have to find creative ways of getting US companies to go down there and invest. And to build their resort industries to get to make the tourism going down in those countries. And those types of things are what will bridge the gap between where we are and where they are in a way that should reduce the problem of illegal immigration in the future. Yeah. So if America continues right now on the trajectory that it's on and thousands of illegal immigrants continue to arrive at our southern border and be released into the country, who ultimately are the winners and losing? of that scenario? Well, the winners are the criminal organizations that either force them up or and or profit from them along the way. So the cartels in Mexico that are taxing the caravans as they come north are profiting.

The smugglers themselves, obviously, or the traffickers themselves are profiting. The sex trafficking industry is going to profit from it. It's essentially the kind of the worst parts of our society are doing well when we have immigration crises like we have right now. Wow. Mr. Jones, I so appreciate the work that you are doing on this issue. You're really on the forefront of it. Tell us how our listeners can follow your work and keep up with what you all are doing down there in Texas. Sure.

So I'm a senior fellow at the Texas Public Policy Foundation, which is the largest state-oriented policy. Foundation, obviously we do a lot of work that covers the entire country and we do our work in Washington, D.C. as well, but the website is w.W.w.Texicyspolicy.com. There are several fellows in addition to me that are doing work in this area. We have live streams twice a week and we're publishing and getting the word out as much as we can. This is a crisis and that there are reasonable solutions to the crisis. Well, we'll be sure to link your report joined at the hip, organized crime, and illegal immigration in today's show notes. But we so, so appreciate your time and all the work that you're doing on this issue.

Thank you. Conservative women. Conservative feminists. It's true. We do exist. I'm Virginia Allen. And every Thursday morning on problematic women, Lauren Evans and I sort through the news to bring you stories in interviews that are particular interest to conservative leaning or problem. problematic women. That is women whose views and opinions are often excluded or mocked by those on the so-called feminist left. We talk about everything from pop culture to policy and politics. Search for problematic women wherever you get your podcast. Thanks for sending us your letters to the editor. Each Monday,

we feature our favorites on this show. Virginia, who's up first? Well, one of our listeners left us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts writing, it's like NPR. for conservatives, but better. Straight, honest news with a deeper dive into important topics of the day, with very interesting interviews with excellent guests. And Renee Herman writes, Dear Daily Signal, I appreciate getting the news from the Daily Signal. It offers me an understanding of today's headlines and a better perspective on what's really going on. It also prepares me to have good conversations with others. The information I get from the Daily Signal helps me get the facts with a right perspective so I can better process what I believe and prepares me to

share my thoughts with others in a civil way. Thank you for your part in bringing America to the table in a healthier way and equipping me to have conversations that actually may open a pathway for positive change. Your letter could be featured on next week's show. So send us an email at letters at daily signal.com or leave us a review on Apple Podcast. It's because of support from listeners like you that we can continue to produce podcasts like Heritage Explains and SCOTUS 101. And you can help us keep it up by going to www.org slash podcast today to make your tax-deductible gift. Virginia, you have a good news story to share with us today. Over to you. Thanks so much, Rob. In 2019, Colorado Middle School math teacher Finn Lannning had a surprising interaction

with one of his favorite students. Laning recounted the conversation with student Damien in an interview with MSN News. He's smart and funny, and he was always a student that stood out. And then one day he just came to me and said, I'm not coming back to school. Damien was in foster care, and social services were struggling to find a home to place him in.

Damien had kidney disease and required dialysis, because no foster family was able to meet his medical needs, he was going to have to go live at a hospital until he could receive a kidney transplant and recover from the operation. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I mean, you just can't sit across from somebody that you care about and hear them say something like that and know that you have room to help. Laining decided he would foster Damien. The young student was excited to have a home again, but a bit unsure about living with his teacher, as he told MSN News. I was like, yes, I'd get out of the hospital while I was like, my math teacher. Out of all the people. But two years have now passed, and Laining and Damien have gotten along very well,

so well, in fact, that Lanning has adopted Damien as his own son. MSN News spoke to the pair recently about the choice to become father and son. Even though it's been absolutely the hardest thing I've ever done, I wouldn't trade it for anything. I'll keep him. 15-year-old Damien says it's like a dream come true. Virginia, thank you so much for sharing that story. with us. It's always so uplifting to hear these on Mondays to start our week. We appreciate it.

Yeah, it is a great way to start the week with some good news. We need more good news in our world. We certainly do. Well, we're going to leave it there for the Daily Signal podcast. You can find us on the Rurkishay Audio Network. All of our shows are available at dailysignal.com slash podcasts. You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or your favorite podcast app. And be sure to listen every weekday by adding the Daily Signal Podcasts. as part of your Alexa Flash briefing. If you like what you hear, please leave us a review and a five-star rating. It means a lot to us and helps us spread the word to other listeners.

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