Submit Podcast or Channel

Inside the Fight to Keep Parents in the Know About Their Kids' Gender in California Schools

October 6, 20230 comments♥ 0
00:05This is the Daily Signal podcast for Friday, October 6th.I'm Tyler O'Neill.I sat down with Emily Ray, who is the Senior Counsel at the Liberty Justice Center,which is a public interest nonprofit law firm that represents people pro bono.And in this particular case, she is representing Chino Valley Unified School District,which if you've been following any of the news around parental rights in California,should immediately make your ears perk up because this is the school district that has a policy requiring parental notification in cases where a child is actually facing difficult situations.And this is not just if they claim to identify as a gender opposite their biological sex and want to change their name and pronouns and all that jazz.
00:57It also applies to other situations like if the child is considering self-harm or if the child says that.that they're being bullied.This policy says parents must be in the know.Well, California Attorney General Rob Bonta said that this policy violates the CaliforniaConstitution, particularly the privacy rights of students.And he says that a student has a privacy right to keep parents out of the know if that studentwants to identify as a gender opposite their biological sex at school.So if they want to go, you know, and this is going publicly with a name and pronouns that conflict with their biology, that he says that should be hidden from parents and that if a school district has a policy saying parents need to be in the know, because this is a big psychological intervention.
01:52That's what psychologists have told me.And even people who actually supported the transgender ideology, they've said this is a big psychological intervention.So Rob Bonta says this violates the California Constitution, and this case is really hot right now because there's a temporary restraining order preventing Chino Valley from following this policy.That temporary restraining order will be up on October 13th for a revisiting court hearing.So I sat down with Emily Ray and she went over all these issues and she was just fantastic at boiling everything down to.the key nuts and bolts and everything that you need to know. So tune in to my interview withEmily Ray right after this. So what is going on with Ukraine? What is this deal with the border?How do you feel about school choice? These are the questions that come up to conservatives
02:51sitting at parties, at dinner, at family reunions. What do you say when these questions come up?I'm Mark Geinney, the host of the podcast for you.Heritage Explains brought to you by all of your friends here at the Heritage Foundation.Through the creative use of stories, the knowledge of our super passionate experts,we bring you the most important policy issues of the day and break them down in a way that is understandable.So check out Heritage Explains wherever you get your podcasts.This is Tyler O'Neill, a managing editor at The Daily Signal.I am honored to be joined by Emily Ray.
03:31She is the Senior Council at the Liberty Justice Center, which is representing Chino Valley Unified School District in their important lawsuit being filed by California Attorney General Rob Bonta.Chino Valley is defending a rule that requires teachers and the school district in general to notify parents if their children.claim to identify as a gender opposite their biological sex.Emily, it is such a pleasure to have you with me.It's great to be here.Thanks so much for having me.So would you walk us through a little bit of this case?I mean, from what I understand, I read the Chino Valley Unified School District's policy.
04:19It seems very, you know, it seems very moderate, like it's actually addressing many of the concernsthat people on the pro-transgender side might have while also acknowledging the fundamentalrole that parents play in the lives of their children?Absolutely.This parental notification policy is actually broader than simply relating to children whowant to socially transition at school.It involves notifying parents if students are getting bullied, if they get hurt at school,if they express a desire to self-harm important information about kids that happens at school
05:03that parents need to know.And this is one of those things.If a child wants to socially transition at school, something that they will tell their teachers,school administrators, other students will know about it, the only people who the state wantsto keep in the dark are parents.And so Chino Valley said, no, that's not okay.this is something that's really important that parents need to know. They need to be involved in theconversations with teachers and, you know, participate and partner with schools to come up with a plan
05:35for the child together and be involved in that process. So, and the Attorney General Rob Bantahas argued that the Chino Valley School District's policy violates the California Constitution,specifically passages regarding, you know, protection of a right to privacy, a fewother rights, the Equal Protection Clause they claim, how do you respond to those claims? And is therea higher standard than California law that you would mention? Well, first off, there is a fundamentalright to parent that is a federal constitutionally protected right. It's grounded in the 14th Amendment,and it basically says that parents have the right to direct the upbringing and education oftheir children. This is a right that the Supreme Court has said exists.
06:23for over 100 years.It continues to be affirmed when it goes to the Supreme Court.So that is the overarching constitutional right here.As far as Bontas claims, they don't have the authority to bring this suit.While it is true that students have certain privacy rights,this is not a case that violates those privacy rights.The child is going to school.The policy is only triggered or enforced.
06:53if the child actually goes to a teacher or a school administrator and affirmatively says,I want to go by a different name.I want to use different pronouns.I want to use a different bathroom.You know, this is an action that the student is taking and it's public in school.Anyone who works at the school needs to know this so that they don't misgender a child ordead name a child.The only people who don't know are parents, and that is absolutely not okay.
07:20Well, yeah, and I think that gets to the point.We've heard Rob Bonta repeatedly say that this is a forced outing policy, that policies like thisput children who claim to identify as transgender in harm's way.And how do you respond to that rhetoric?I say that parents are the guardians of their minor children.They have their best interests at heart.They love their children.You know, Bonta acts like this policy is going out to strange.
07:51or to criminals or something and just telling them about children's lives.No, we're talking about a child's parents here.And it's just absolutely ridiculous to say that a government, a school, can keep secrets from parents,especially about information that is so important about the child's life.So we also had, you know, I've been following this case.I think it's huge.There was, actually, let's talk about this real quick.there was a temporary restraining order that the judge issued in your case directing Chino Valley
08:27unified to not employ its policy for specific, you know, it was a limited period of time. I believeit ends next month. But yeah, can you walk through that what it means, what it doesn't mean in particular?Sure. So a couple of things. That was a hearing in front of Judge Garza. It was what's called an ex parte hearing.which is kind of an emergency hearing.When you have a temporary restraining order,everyone kind of rushes into court,supposed to be on an emergency basis.So it was not fully briefed.
09:03The judge did not read our opposition.We didn't fully present all of our evidenceand our legal arguments.So that is kind of the context of that TRO hearing.We are going back to court on October 13thfor what's called a preliminary injunction to argue that the restraining order should not be in placeand that we should be allowed to have this policy throughout the pendency of the lawsuit.And that will be in front of a different judge.
09:36Cool.There is a similar, it's interesting.It's a different case on a very similar issue.And this is actually in federal court.And this had been fully briefed.So just briefly, I mean, this case, it regards the Thomas Moore Society.They're representing two teachers in the, in, let's see, where is it?Escondido.
10:01Yes, yeah, Escondido, Unified School District.These two teachers are saying that the school district, which has the exact opposite policy of Chino Valley, it's saying that, so the policy says that if a student claims to identify as a general.as a different gender, then the school has to not notify parents unless the student specificallysays that they can do so. And this has led to a perverse situation where the school orderedthese teachers to lie to parents, or so the teachers claim. And they got a list of all the kidswho claim to identify as a gender opposite their biological sex and notes saying, oh, theirparents, their legal guardians don't know this, therefore refer to them this way. And so it's cleardirections to lying. Anyway, this case was fully briefed and a judge issued a different sort of
11:04order. This was a preliminary injunction saying that the school cannot, saying that first of all,the argument you just made to me that the U.S. Constitution protects the rights of parents tobring up their own children and make health decisions for them, and that the Supreme Court has repeatedlyupheld that, but also saying that the school district can't punish the teachers if they violatethis policy. How does this order refer to your case, or is there any involvement there?or are these two, you know, because Rob Bonta has claimed they're two entirely different issues.You know, don't, don't look at the man behind the curtain in Escondido school district.Don't look at the judge's ruling that the policy Rob Bonta supports may have violated the U.S. Constitution,
11:59much less the California Constitution.Yeah, at the heart of both cases is the same idea that schools should not be able to keep secrets from parents, right?That's what this all boils down to.Judge Bonita's decision in the Southern District of California was very well reasoned.He relied on expert testimony.He went through in-depth over a century of Supreme Court cases talking about the issue ofthe constitutional right to parent and ultimately came to the conclusion that schools cannotforce these teachers to keep secrets from parents.
12:35So, of course, it relates.It's, you know, well, there are some similar and some different legal issues between the two cases that I won't get into.The overarching theme that parents have a right to direct the upbringing of their children and that schools can't interfere with that is the same between both cases.And it's very good for us.So is it possible or perhaps even likely?I mean, naturally, you're focused specifically on the Chino Valley Unified School District case.But is it possible or likely that the federal judge will.issue some sort of ruling or some sort of, you know, overarching claim saying, look, this ruling
13:14here in Escondito Union School District applies to the state of California. And we're subsumingthe Chino Valley case into that case. I would not say that that is likely. However, every time ajudge issues a decision in a case that's a similar subject matter to other cases, youYou can always use it as persuasive authority in your own case.But as far as the judge taking our case kind of under the existing case in Escondido, I don't see that happening.But you would say that this preliminary injunction strengthens your argument in Chino Valley.Absolutely.And you plan to bring that as evidence in our next month?
14:00Yes.Yeah. Wonderful.I want to talk a little bit about the broader issue, you know, as you're saying hiding the truth from parents.We just saw, and obviously let me know if this is something you can't comment on because you're, you know, you're specifically focused on this case.But we just saw Gavin Newsom sign a bunch of bills that are furthering many of the ideas in this issue, particularly.there was AB5, which is called the Safe and Supportive Schools Act, now a law that he signed,where they're mandating teachers to have an LGBT cultural competency training for teachers andother employees that trains teachers to look at potential threats to children that includes,
15:00you know, parents in situations like this.Do you think that that law or that policy that they're pushing there has any bearing on this case?No, because California already has those laws.Every state in America already has those laws.That if a teacher as a mandatory reporter knows that a child is being neglected or abused at home,they have to report it to the state.And CPS has to get involved.These laws are not new.
15:30We have had them for a very long time.So anyone that's trying to say that, you know, kids can get hurt because of this.It's a red herring.The issue that really matters is that parents love their kids and parents need to knowinformation about their kids to help their children, make decisions and keep them safe.And that is what is at issue here.So, yeah, I think that gets to the main, you know, the crux of the issue.If teachers have a reason to believe that the parent does actually pose a risk,
16:01to the child. They're required to report that. Like this isn't, you know, this is an ideologicalpush on behalf of Bonta and others, essentially assuming that parents are a threat to childrenif they might not support a child's claimed gender identity, but in the complete absenceof any evidence and in a situation where if they, if they,parents did pose that concrete harm that their claiming is involved here, then there already arestructures in place to protect the child. Yes, that's right. So can you walk me through the wayit works in California if a teacher has real concern that parents might be threatening orabusing their child? Sure. That's something that teachers, doctors, psychologists, anyone who is a
17:04mandatory reporter under the law would need to report it to the police. The Department of ChildProtective Services would get involved. There would be an investigation that's open. The child may ormay not be removed from the home during that process, just depending on the individual situation.and you will go from there.And if there is a threat to a child,if they are being neglected and abused,they would be removed to the custody of the state.And what kind of evidence would the state need
17:35in a situation like that?Evidence that the child is being abused or neglected.I mean, there's a variety of evidence that can be used.And I will say this is not my specialty.I have worked in CPS law in the past and limited capacities,which is why I'm able to speak to this a little bit.But it just depends on the situation.And the state will work to keep the child safe, right?
18:01That's what we as a society want.We want to keep children safe.So if there's the threat that a child is unsafe with their parentsin those very limited, rare instances, then the state will step in.But that is not what's an issue with this policy.This policy is just about letting.letting parents know what's going on with their children so that they can be involved with this process.Yeah. So if a parent does disagree with a child's dated gender identity, that wouldn't necessarily, you know, count as evidence that CPS would need to be involved.
18:41Absolutely not. I mean, parents disagree with things that their kids do all the time. This is not something that's new or novel, right?Right. And I think.What is also an issue here is this notion that the child knows better than the parents to the degree that the school needs to hide from the parents what the child is really doing, even though it's a public matter at school, as you mentioned?Yeah, the whole thing is ridiculous. Children's brains are still developing. They are still developing maturity. I mean, they don't see the world the way that an adult is, and they won't for years beyond, you know, K-3,12 education. So why anyone expects children to know better about their own lives is beyond me.When we don't expect children to know better about their own lives in any other respect.That is why they are minors. That is why they have a legal guardian until they're 18.Right. Well, and I think in this, in these issues in particular, it's, it's kind of thorny because
19:45the interventions here have lifetime impacts and can lead to.to someone being sterilized can lead to, you know, medical interventions that many doctorsand I believe there's a case in Florida where a court is specifically considering likethe claim that these are experimental procedures, like the Florida government has said,this is experimental medicine, therefore it doesn't fall under Medicaid.But, you know, there is a very heated debate over these procedures, and it stands to reason that parents might disagree with the idea that their kid should be medicalized in this way.Right. Well, and this lawsuit isn't even going that far. We aren't here to debate, you know, what is good or bad in this situation. I mean, the scientists are there to have that debate. All we're saying is that parents need to know. It is their right to know. It is what's best for the children.that they know, and we need to bring parents back into schools. We need to let them know what's going on.
20:55And we need to support teachers and parents talking and partnering together to make sure that the child,what happens is best for the child. And earlier this week, Rob Banta issued guidance to every schooldistrict across California, essentially threatening them saying, look, if you have a policy like Chinovalleys, you know, we're going to go against you, and this is violating California law. And by the way,pay no attention to Escondido, you know, unified and the court ruling there. Would you say thatthat piece of guidance shows a, you know, shows a disdain or that he's defying the federal court order?I don't know what Bontan knows or thinks or doesn't know or think, but the law is very clearly on our side here.We feel very confident in our ability to fight this and win.
21:56So, you know, he can say whatever he wants.But at the end of the day, it's going to come down to what a court says, and we are in the right here.So what does the case look like going forward?You've mentioned, you know, October 13th, you have another hearing that specifically onthe lawsuit going forward. I think it's regarding the issues of the temporary restraining order.Right. It's a preliminary injunction. So the temporary restraining order is just that. It's temporary.It lasts, you know, about a month. And so the October 13th hearing is to decide whether thatoriginal ruling, the ruling that was made on an emergency basis where the judge didn't have time
22:36to consider all of the evidence, that should go forward. Or as we argue, that should not go forwardand we should be allowed to continue enforcing the policy during the pendency of the litigation.And then is there another, I mean, it may not be scheduled now, but what does the future look like for this case?Sure. So we don't have anything else scheduled at this time. The first thing up is the preliminary injunction.We do have a trial setting hearing in February. So that's the next thing on calendar.but everyone can go to Liberty Justice Center.org and you can sign up to receive updates about thiscase and as we have more things on the calendar, get everything scheduled, we can let everyoneknow.
23:22And how close are you with the superintendent, with the school board, with those who are behindthis policy and have they, you know, part of what I've heard is that these cases often are a formof lawfare where the process is the punishment, where, you know, Attorney General Rob Bonta,he has all the resources of the state, he can file this lawsuit, he can spend months and monthsand months and months in litigation, but he's going up against a school district that is justdefending its own policy. And, you know, how are they feeling amidst this? Are they, you know,dedicated to fighting. I know there are other school districts in California that have adoptedsimilar parental notification policies, regardless of Bonta's claims that they might also violate
24:14the law. This is the only district he's suing, and it seems like you might be making an exampleof them. So how do your clients, how are they feeling and how dedicated are they to fighting this?They're 100% dedicated to fighting this, as am I with them. I mean, I talk to them regularly.Sonia Shaw, the school board president and I are in constant communication.And, you know, I wouldn't say that anyone was particularly surprised that the state istargeting them and engaging in this, you know, ridiculous nonsense.But we are going to continue to fight and, you know, everyone is staying strong hereand doing what we have to do to protect kids.
24:57So, Emily, yeah, on that issue where we have this school district,facing off against all the resources of the state of California. How does the involvement of LibertyJustice Center relate to that? Have you kind of stepped into the breach? Is this school districtable to continue this litigation, no matter how long it goes? Sure. Well, Liberty Justice Center is anonprofit public interest law firm. All of our cases are pro bono, which means that they are100% free to our clients. That includes attorney time. It includes out ofpocket, like court costs, expert fees, all of that. Liberty Justice covers that through ourgenerous private donors. So, you know, one of the great things about using Liberty Justice
25:45Center or another nonprofit is the state can't strongarm school districts into settlingbecause, you know, they just want to bring frivolous lawsuits and try and wait them out until,you know, they've run out of money. That's not the case here. We're going to fight this all the way.we're able to do so, and it's great partnering with Chino Valley.And Liberty Justice Center has a record of holding the government accountable,specifically in a very important case called Janus v. Afsme, a union case.Can you talk a little bit about that?Sure.
26:22So the Janice case, we're about five years out from that,and basically we took that all the way to Supreme Court.and the Supreme Court said that people don't have to be in state unions, Liberty Justice Center alsodid a case on the OSHA mask mandates against the Biden administration, and we went on that as well.So we have a track record of taking on big fights going, you know, all the way to the Supreme Court,and so we're not afraid of Vanta and we're not going to back down here.Awesome.Well, where can our listeners learn more about Liberty Justice Center, your other cases,
27:00How can they follow you?Sure.Libertyjusticecenter.org is our website.You can follow us on pretty much any social media platform to search for Liberty Justice Center.And if you want to follow me, I am constantly giving updates on the case in Liberty Justice Center.And it's at Emily Ray TX on Twitter or X, I should say.Yes, the artist formerly known as.Yeah, exactly.
27:27Are there any other cases real quick while I have you?that Liberty Justice Center is focused on that you would like to mention?Well, Liberty Justice Center has a lot of active cases going on right now.We specialize in basically protecting constitutional rights.That includes individual liberties, property rights, economic rights, and fighting againstgovernment overreach.So if you go to our website, we have all of our active cases listed.And those do have like tags, category tags.
27:59So if you're specifically interested in, like, education freedom, for example, you can go and see all the cases that we're doing on education freedom.So we make it really easy to break it down that way.Wonderful.Well, Emily, it's been a great pleasure.Thanks so much for joining us.And is there anything else you'd like to say?I would just say that, you know, this is a really important issue.And we need to make sure that parents are still involved in their kids' life and that parents are able to direct the upbringing of their children.
28:29children, as is their constitutional right? And that this issue isn't just going to go away if weignore it. People need to stand up. They need to fight back. And that's what we're doing here withthis lawsuit. Thanks again, Emily. Thank you so much. That was Emily Ray, and this is Tyler O'Neillwith the Daily Signal podcast. I hope you enjoyed our conversation, left it with more of anunderstanding of what's going on in California, and how this could impact parents, students, and schooldistricts across America. If you like what you listen to here, please leave us a five-star ratingand review. We read all of your feedback wherever you're listening to your podcast. And rememberto return to this very podcast at 5 p.m. today, we're going to have our top news edition
29:17where the Daily Signal goes through the top headlines of the day to get you ready on yourevening commute so that you remain in the know and ready to hear what's going on before theweekend. Again, this is Tyler O'Neill. Have a great day.The Daily Signal podcast is brought to you by more than half a million members of the HeritageFoundation. Executive producers are Rob Luey and Kate Trinko.Producers are Virginia Allen and Samantha Asheras.Sound designed by Lauren Evans, Mark Geinney, and John Pop. To learn more, please visitDailySignal.com.