The Daily Signal - INTERVIEW | Jesse Wiese Found God in Prison. Now He’s Helping Others.

Episode Date: September 26, 2022

Jesse Wiese knows from firsthand experience what life is like behind bars—and what it takes to reenter society. He served seven-and-a-half years in prison for robbery before joining the organization Prison Fellowship and later graduating from law school. Today, he is vice president of program design and evaluation at Prison Fellowship, where he oversees the Good Citizenship Model, a new approach that makes human flourishing the goal after serving time in prison. Wiese joined "The Daily Signal Podcast" to discuss the steps policymakers can take to improve America's prisons and reduce the recidivism that's contributing to today's crime problems. Listen to the interview or read a lightly edited transcript below. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, September 26th. I'm Ferdinna Allen. And I'm Rob Blewey. On today's show, I speak with Jesse Weiss, vice president of program design and evaluation at Prison Fellowship. With crime and violence often dominating the news these days, we talk about how prisons are contributing to the problem and what prison fellowship is doing to help individuals become

contributing members of society. Jesse Weiss knows firsthand, given his own experience in prison. He served nearly eight years for robbery, but found his calling and is now helping others. We also read your letters to the editor and share a good news story about an organization that is meeting a critical need for foster children. Now stay tuned for today's show after this. This is Mike Al with the Heritage Foundation. I know how the left and the deep state operate because I've seen it from the inside.

When I was working for the Trump administration, I learned how the left made our lives miserable and how they continue to think they could play by their own rules. Well, now we're taking all of these tricks and tactics that were deployed against the Trump administration. and turning them against the Biden regime. Through the work of the Oversight Project, we're exposing left for what they are and embarrassing some actors responsible. We're using strategic foias and fearless litigation

to force these bureaucrats to deliver documents they prefer to never see the light of day. But for our work to be successful, we need patriots like you to stand with us. You can take action now. Visit heritage.org slash oversight to learn more. There's no time to waste.

Jesse Weiss knows from firsthand experience what life is like behind bars and what it takes to reenter society. He served seven and a half years in prison for robbery before joining the organization Prison Fellowship and later graduating from law school. Today he is vice president of program design and evaluation at Prison Fellowship, where he oversees the good citizenship model, a new approach that makes human flourishing the goal after serving time in prison. Jesse, thanks so much for joining the Daily Signal podcast. Great to be with you. Jesse, with crime and violence dominating the headlines and impacting several political campaigns, are we paying enough attention to the role of repeat offenders and the failures of prisons?

You know, I think that there are, you know, you're right. I mean, there's a lot of conversation going on in this country around violent crime. Who we send to prison, how long we send them to prison, and what happens to them in prison is probably one of the, of what happens to people once we send them to prison is one of the conversations that I really like to talk about the most because it's one of the conversations that isn't discussed the most. I think in this country we have an assumption that once a person goes to prison,

they're gonna come back out as a better person or we just have a tendency of kind of out of side, out of mind approach. And that and that's not how reality works. You know, I spent about a, eight years incarcerated myself. And when I was in the prison system, you know, there are very few hands reaching up to help you when you're in the prison system and I was fortunate enough to find them. But as we see this, you know, the conversations around this political campaigns, a kind of a regression in my mind as we kind of go back to the 90s tough on crime era, I think the conversation

needs to really be shifting towards what happens in our prisons and how can, you know, can we leverage and change or leverage our prison systems to increase public safety? Jesse, how much of a factor is recidivism in the current crime wave affecting American cities? You know, that's a really good question. I think that when we think about how we measure the success of an organization or of an agency or of an institution, you know, there are a lot of factors that come into play, a lot of data points that we consider. And when we look at at the prison system or the criminal justice system as a whole in the United States, the only metric that we have to measure its success is a recidivism rate, which is essentially a failure rate.

It's a rate of return that people who walk out of the system that they come back. We define recidivism in multiple different ways, depending on what state you're in. And so it could be essentially it's a three-year rate of return just for purposes of this conversation. And so, Basically, what is a failure rate becomes our success rate. And I think that that is unfortunate at best. And I actually think it perpetuates the problem that we have because ultimately you get what you measure. You get the results that you're measuring for. And as we look at the criminal justice system, I think we want more for people that are going into the system than to simply just not return.

We have a tendency of looking at just a, we have a reductionist approach when it comes to the criminal justice system in the United States, meaning that we want people to reduce negative behaviors. We want them to stop being antisocial. We want them to, in essence, we just want them to be better. And so just sending somebody into a prison setting and just expecting that. that something good is going to happen of that, counters every kind of rule and law that we know that exists. I mean, everything deteriorates without some intentionality. And so when we send people into the prison system,

we have to be very intentional. We should be intentional about what happens in that system, inside the prison system that can either contribute to them coming back to the system for sure. But I think the question is, is not why, you know, why do people commit crime? But I think the question is, why don't people commit crime and start using that as a metric in this country

versus just looking at a failure rate. Well, Jesse, thank you for sharing that. According to a recent Fox News commentary that you wrote, you cited statistics from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, which showed that 62% of people released from state prisons are re-arrested within three years. So certainly something that we need to consider and a reason for us to take a hard look at this.

You know, before we go on, I'd like you to share more about your own experience and how your life was changed by serving time in prison. Yes, certainly. I kind of come from a middle class. I grew up in, you know, suburbia and grew up going to private Christian schools, getting the best education that you could. But by the time I was 18, I really found myself wrestling with, the wise of life, this had this existential angst trying to figure out what kept me on this spinning

globe and, you know, where was order and chaos and really kind of went through this existential crisis, which ultimately led me to robbing a bank when I was 21 years old with a loaded 38 pistol. And really looking at the values that I held to at that time were very obviously self-centered. it didn't have a sense of community or responsibility to the community that I lived in, or even values, or even valuing myself and the contributions that I was, you know, I had a duty. Is that related to living with other people? And so ultimately, you know, when you see the outside of a prison, it's not a very aesthetic setting. And so ultimately, I think that it really represented my internal condition if you look at the outside of a prison. And I found myself, you know,

kind of meandering through the prison system. I'd never been in the criminal justice system before. And as I was just spent about eight months in a jail setting waiting to be sentenced, was ultimately sentenced to 15 years in the state of Iowa. And, you know, kind of found myself just meandering through the prison system with no hope, really no purpose or forward trajectory in my life. But I came across one of those hands that was reaching up, which are very few and hard to find, and I was fortunate to find several. And one of those hands being prison fellowship, which is the nation's largest Christian nonprofit serving prisoners and their families in this country and got involved with the Academy program at the time and just radically changed my life

in the sense of it provided me an opportunity to live with a group of, of, of, men who were trying to change their life and wanting to do the quote unquote right thing. And prison fellowship staff provided the support necessary to help us move in that direction. And I finally came to the realization that there was a God and it wasn't me. And that just led me down a longer trajectory of change. But ultimately, I found myself trying to help people versus just trying to serve myself. And, you know, I left prison with a belief that I could contribute at the level that I was designed and with the potential that I had been given and that I could serve my community at that level.

And so I refused to be relegated to the margins with a felony record. And obviously, you know, the act that I had committed was a serious one and I deserved, you know, be punished for that. But when I left, I really wanted to leave all of that behind and really pursue a future and a hope that had meaning and had impact for other people. And so I left the prison system when I was 29 years old. I spent with the majority of my 20s inside. I remember studying for the law school admission test on my prison bunk, thinking I'll run for governor one day. and I just left with that kind of tenacity, but most people don't leave prison with that tenacity.

And the reason why I think that I did was because I was in a culture that encouraged that, that saw the potential that I had and nurtured that potential, and then I actually believed it, which is a very dangerous thing. And so, you know, you left the prison system and ultimately it took me about

10 years to become a lawyer, but I eventually did become one. But I guess in reflecting on that entire time in prison, I just think that it has formed my belief that prison culture matters. Prisons are a program in and of themselves. And if we just send people to prison without actually understanding and setting certain metrics for our prison system in the United States, we're going to continue to see people return to prison and we're going to continue to see the headlines that we see now around an uptick in crime.

Well, Jesse, that is, thank you for sharing that story, first of all, and thank you for serving as a role model. I think your experience certainly, in many cases, I hope, motivates others to take steps along the lines of what you were able to do and to lead a better life after serving time in prison. I mentioned in the introduction, the good citizenship model, and I know the prison Fellowship has many people who are doing some great work to help individuals after they serve their time. Can you tell us more about that example and the human flourishing aspect that you yourself are trying to live and you hope others will as well? Yeah, certainly. You know,

the good citizenship model is really just a new lens for looking at change in the prison system. So it's really asserting that prison culture plays a is a catalyst. for the outcomes that we want to see. And if we want to measure recidivism, you know, well, prison culture and what I mean by prison culture, we think about organizational culture. Current prison culture is very toxic. And so, for example, if I'm in prison, there is a general rule that you don't talk to people who work in corrections or correctional officers.

There is a general rule that if you do, you're going to be either targeted as a snitch or it's going to put you in potential danger. So there is no communication, no open communication, there is no trust. Other examples of current prison culture are you don't shake hands. You don't look people in the eye. You don't talk to people that you don't associate with or who you don't know. If you do any of those things, you're actually putting yourself in physical danger. And if we think about applying those same kind of cultural norms outside of the prison context,

we can see how that it would not quite you know you're not going to move forward in your life as you would hope in order for you to actually be successful you need to look people in the eye shake hands in order you need to be able to act in a pro-social way and unfortunately you know these fundamental norms that exist inside of a prison cultural setting they do not you know they do not assist in a person's, you know, success on the outside. And so if you think about someone who spent like myself 10 years living in that kind of culture, and then all of a sudden the prison gate opens and you're going to walk out and I think we have this concept that some kind of magical fairy dust gets sprinkled on a person and all of a sudden they're going to leave, they're going to leave

all those cultural norms behind. And I've visited hundreds of prisons since I've been out of prison. And I tell people every time I go, if you act like you're allowed to act, inside prison, outside of prison. There's only one place you're going to go, and that's back in prison, because it's the only place in this country. You're able to act that way and not have any consequences. And so the good citizenship model is really just asking two essential questions. Number one, is the people that we're sending into prison, are they being equipped with the values to be good citizens and to flourish in life? So it's not just about a reduction of these negative attributes, but it is a replacing of those negative attributes with what we call the values of good

citizenship, which are values like community, affirmation, productivity, responsibility, restoration, and integrity. These types of values that we all know and believe as Americans that are good values, and if we live by those values, will be a quote-unquote good citizen, a good neighbor. And we also believe that if people who practice those values, they're more likely to thrive or flourish in life, which is what we want to see out of the criminal justice system. We don't want to just see people not returning to prison because I can tell you countless stories of people who have left the criminal justice system, left the prison system, never came back and are still on drugs, are homeless, do not have a, they're not paying taxes,

they're not, they're not contributing to society. They are still detracting and they're still taking from society. And we want people to be contributors. I mean, we already know that we lose billions of dollars in GDP because we don't allow people with a criminal record to actually manifest their potential. And so we already know that we're already taking, we're stealing from ourselves in essence, but we want to provide people the opportunity to flourish. And that needs to happen inside of prison, not just when they, not just when they walk out. So if you, if you, spend any time inside prisons, you're always going to hear people talking about what they're going to do when they get out. When I get out, I'm going to do this. When I get out, I'm going to do that. And I always tell people, well, what are you going to do tomorrow? And that's what we need to really start looking at and providing opportunities in our prison system for people to do something today in the system that is going to contribute to their enhancement or adoption of the values of good citizenship. I'm curious, a follow-up question to that. How do old habits contribute to the recidivism problem in our country, such as returning to an old neighborhood, maybe reuniting with troublesome friends, things like that that may have happened that led them down this path if they return to that environment, are they more likely to be repeat offenders or are there ways for them to overcome some of those habits?

Sure. Yeah. You know, there are cremogenic risk factors. There's eight of them, which are essentially factors that have been researched that show that if you reduce these factors, a person is less likely to come back into contact with the criminal justice system. And one of those factors is associations, so who they associate with. And so obviously, if you show me your friends, I'll show you your future. And so that is a categorical truth, and it applies to people in prison as well as it does to people outside of prison.

But the truth is for people coming out of the criminal justice system, the options are very limited. But part of that reason is, is because the viewpoint that that person has is very limited, because nobody has spent the time, energy, or effort to show them that there is a broader perspective and there are more options for them than what they think. I'll never forget a conversation I had with a young man. He was about to get out of prison. I was still in prison at the time. And he shared with me, man, when I get out, I can't wait.

I'm about to get out. I'm going to go live with my mom. And I said, well, weren't you in your mind? cooking methamphetamine together? And he said, yes. I said, well, why would you go live with your mother? Because she's my mom was his answer. And so I felt bad for him because that's all he knew.

Nobody had spent the time and painted a bigger picture for him so that he could make better decisions. And part of that has to happen inside the prison system when you create a culture that, provides opportunities for you to be exposed to things that you've never been exposed to, which the majority of the issues in prison is not necessarily reentry, they're entry issues, which means most people in prison have, we've never talked about what it means to be a good citizen to begin with, and what opportunities that affords that individual in the accomplishment of their goals

and just their overall human flourishing. And I've seen it time and time again that when you paint that picture and you provide that opportunity and you change the culture in an institution, it changes the trajectory of an individual. And it does change their decisions, which in effect changes, changes the trajectory of their life. I want to shift to public policy for a moment. A new poll out from NBC News gives Republicans a 45% to 22% advantage over Democrats in the issue of crime. as you know, there is a lot of chatter on the campaign trail about this issue. So what advice do you have for policymakers as they perhaps look for solutions either in Washington, D.C. or their state capitals? Yeah, I think we've learned a lot from the 1990s.

And my, you know, I know at Prison Fellowship, we work, we are a mission-driven organization and we work across the aisle. and I think what we tell our policy partners is that let's not be reactionary, let's be responsive. And so we have a tendency when it comes to crime to be reactionary, to just have a knee-jerk reaction when we should sit down the table and really have a in-depth conversation about what are the driving factors. There are a lot of reasons, a lot of variables as to why crime is up. And there's even more variables as to how we can adequately respond to that. But one of the things that I will say is a constant in this conversation is something that we have not yet looked at is what is the culture of our prisons in the United States? How do we assess that culture?

How do we rate that culture so that we know that when we send people, in essence, through the prison program, that that program is going to get good results? And so that is something that we can certainly start to do at the public policy level. It's something that we here at Prison Fellowship are designing a new prison culture assessment to assess the culture of our prisons so that we can then begin to shift and move prisons towards a conduit that we know once people kind of go through the front door and they go through the back door, the likelihood of them coming back in the front door is reduced. And finally, Jesse, how can people get involved with Prison Fellowship, either as a volunteer or to support your work? Yes, please visit us at Prisonfellowship.org. Well, thank you so much for

joining us on the Daily Signal podcast. I appreciate you again, sharing your story and some of the solutions that you have, as this issue clearly resonates with so many Americans, and there's concerns on the part of individuals about the crime in their own neighborhood. I think you've presented some ideas for us to consider here in Washington, D.C. and throughout the country when it comes to prisons and the reforms that are needed. Jesse, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Today, news you can trust feels like a rarity. That's why the Daily Signal podcast releases a top news edition every weekday at 5 p.m. Whether driving home from work, fixing dinner, or picking the kids up from soccer practice, you can stay informed on the headlines you care about. Every show is

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endangered animals enjoy more protections than unborn babies. Justin Moxham of Australia writes, I want to thank you personally from my heart for writing such an important educational article to help raise awareness and to expose the pure evils of the abortion industry. As a Christian, I find it deeply disturbing and shocking how a self-professed enlightened modern society can tolerate and allow this evil of abortion as normal. This article, is one of the best I have read on the subject matter, and it puts into moral perspective how our society is more open and willing to express some semblance of respect and compassion to protect the life of animals, but they are not open or willing to express any compassion

to protect our precious unborn human babies. Please keep up the great work you are doing. And in response to Amy Haywood's article, does your kid's school librarian need parental supervision? Imagine, banned Books Week may tell you, Randy P. Bergeron of Davidson, Michigan had this to say. The First Amendment is very near and dear to my heart and is part of the foundation that contributes to America's unique exceptionalism. Although I personally despise obscene content in print and on the Internet, I am opposed to federally mandated book banning, but I do support local bans of select obscene materials established by means of the state or local democratic process, especially as it pertains to access by children. It should also be noted that restriction of materials by minors is not the same as a total ban of a book or other select materials.

It is very deceptive of the left whenever they try to label child restrictions as book bans. Your letter could be featured on next week's show. So send us an email at Letters at DailySignal.com. At the Heritage Foundation, we believe that every single policy issue discussed in D.C. tells a story. So we want to tell it well. On the Heritage Explains podcast, co-host Tim Desher and Michelle Cordero, take one policy issue a week, mix in a creative blend of clips, narration, and hard-hitting interviews to equip you on crucial issues in under 20 minutes.

So get your story straight. Subscribe to Heritage Explains wherever you listen to podcasts. Virginia, you have a good news story to share with us today. Over to you. Thanks so much, Rob. Well, it was 2014. and Rhonda Paulson and her husband were embarking on a new adventure together. They were becoming foster parents. But Rhonda had no idea how her world was about to change. While she was sitting in a conference-style room at the Washington County, Tennessee, Department of Children's Services,

receiving training on becoming a foster parent, Rhonda learned something she had never known. When children are removed from their homes, they are often brought to the Department of Children's Services office. for several hours or even overnight while they await placement with a foster family. Rhonda could not believe what she was hearing from the Department of Children's Services employee. Were children really brought to a sterile-looking conference room like the one she was sitting in and told to wait until they were taken into foster care? I raised my hand and I said, I'm sorry, sir, but when you mean a child comes here, what do you actually mean?

And he said, a little girl slept in this room last night. And in that moment, God said, these are my children, Rhonda. What are you going to do? Rhonda knew she was called to do something to care for the children entering the foster care system. The seeds were planted for what would one day become Isaiah 117 house. Rhonda and her husband did become foster parents, but they knew God had called them to do something to help kids in the in between. children waiting for foster care placement, but they knew the project was bigger than just them, so they got their community involved. Rhonda founded Isaiah 117 house last year and asked people

in her community to consider opening their homes to waiting children, and she asked them to give towards the dream of a physical home. This would be a house where children could come and receive love and hope as they waited to be placed with a foster family. The home is still a dream. and Isaiah 117 is working towards that goal of building that house, but the vision of the organization is rapidly expanding. 150-plus people volunteer with Isaiah 117 house, not just in Tennessee, but now in several states across the country. The Bible verse Isaiah 117 says to defend the cause of the fatherless,

and that is what Rhonda and all of the volunteers of the nonprofit are doing. As we move forward, our mission stays the same. No child sits in a cubicle at our conference room. No child feels alone or hopeless on that day of removal. That is our mission. And it started as a mission for no child in Carter County. It's turned into a mission of no child throughout the state of Tennessee. And if I'm honest, it scares me. It's a mission of no child anywhere. If you would like to get involved or learn more about Isaiah 117 House, whether you're interested in giving your time, resources, or maybe even opening your home to children waiting to enter foster care, you can visit Isaiah 117house.com. Virginia, thanks for sharing that story about Rhonda.

It is really inspirational to see what people are doing to help those in need. And just in general, thank you for always starting our week with a good news story. and a world when so much bad news seems to surround us, it's nice that the Daily Signal podcast can be a little bit of bright news. It is. It is a little bit of hope at the beginning of the week. And Rob, like you say, I think it's incredible to see someone who just got the idea for this really practical and simple need

and is willing to care for those in such a time of crisis, especially kids. We're going to leave it there for today. You can find the Daily Signal podcast on the Rurkissue audio network. All of our shows are available atdailysignal.com slash podcasts. You can also subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or your favorite podcast app. If you like what you hear, please leave us a review and a five-star rating. It means a lot to us and helps us spread the word to even more listeners. And be sure to follow us on Twitter at DailySignal and Facebook.com slash the DailySignal News.

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