The Daily Signal - INTERVIEW | New York Wedding Photographer Won't Share Her Beliefs About Marriage Because Speaking Out Could Put Her in Jail

Episode Date: June 1, 2023

Emilee Carpenter, a Christian wedding photographer, had to turn to her lawyer when asked about her religious beliefs about marriage because New York law prevents her from speaking about those beliefs in conjunction with her business. Carpenter and her lawyer, Kellie Fiedorek, sat down last week with The Daily Signal at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention in Orlando to discuss the wedding photographer's lawsuit challenging a New York law compelling her to speak in favor of same-sex weddings. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Tyler O'Neill, and this is the Daily Signal podcast interview for Thursday, June 1st, the beginning of Fidelity Month, the response to Pride Month. So I sat down at the National Religious Broadcasters Conference with Emily Carpenter. She actually is a photographer in New York who fears that the government will shut down her business and prevent her from speaking because, she only wants to take pictures of weddings that she considers to be real weddings. As a Christian, she views marriages between one man and one woman. And so she's actually challenging a New York law that might put her in jail because of her convictions on this issue. So I sat down with Emily Carpenter and Alliance Defending Freedom attorney Kelly Fyodoric. And we discussed Emily's case and, you know, the 303 creative case that's currently before the Supreme Court, they've already heard it.

We're awaiting a decision any day now. And I think our conversation is particularly notable. There was one part I want you to listen for where I asked Emily what her beliefs are when it comes to marriage. And she couldn't respond because she's so terrified that. that New York will crack down on her speech. Let's take a listen right after this. Conservative women are problematic women. Why?

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that is problematic women. Find problematic women wherever you like to listen to podcasts and follow the show on Instagram. This is Tyler O'Neill. I'm managing editor at The Daily Signal. I'm joined by Emily Carpenter and her attorney Kelly Fyodoric with a line defending freedom. Emily, you are in the middle of a very important court battle against a New York bill that would put you in danger of jail time for speaking out about your faith. First off, thank you for joining me. Absolutely. Thank you for having me. And can you share a little bit about your personal story, what encourages you to photograph weddings and this horrific threat? we've seen from New York?

Sure. Ultimately, I'm moving forward with this because I want to see all artists be free to choose the messages that they promote. Ultimately, this is a free speech issue, which is why I'm so passionate about moving forward with it. I've been doing wedding photography now for about 10 years. It is my greatest passion.

I absolutely love it. It's what pulls me out of bed sometimes at 5 in the morning or earlier if I do a sunrise shoot. And I really love it. And ultimately, in moving forward with this, we are wanting to see the government respect my beliefs about marriage. I'd love to be able to operate my business in line with my religious convictions without the threat of government punishment, which, like you said, is very steep and severe threats and punishment. $100,000 fine, losing my business, jail time, really scary, scary things. and ultimately these are things that should be protected by the Constitution.

The First Amendment ensures that my speech as a creative professional as an artist should be protected. And there are those who argue that in cases like yours, cases like Jack Phillips, that what you're doing is essentially discrimination against people who identify a certain way. How do you respond to that kind of claim? Well, I serve all people. the fundamental difference with that idea is that this isn't about the person, it's about the message. And we are arguing that somebody should be free to choose the messages that they promote. I don't want to be censored by the government.

This is my speech. This is my artwork. And I want to be able to create freely. And it's honestly so much broader than me because I would want the same freedom extended to even those who differ from me. So ultimately, because we live in such a diverse society, freedom is a true. two-way street. I want freedom for those even who disagree with me. This is extended to all artists of all walks of life. And what is the status of your case right now? So we argued Emily's case last fall at the Second Circuit, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit, and they said they're going

to put the case on hold pending what the U.S. Supreme Court decides in Lori Smith's case, 303 creative. So we should be getting a decision from the court. really any time now, between now and the end of June. And we're hopeful the Supreme Court will affirm that artists, that all Americans have the freedom to speak freely. They can say what they believe without fear of government punishment. And we're hopeful this broad ruling will also then help Emily in her case so that in New York, New York will also be required to respect her freedom of speech. Are there any other messages that you're afraid that this law or similar laws would force you to convey against your convictions?

Certainly, there's loads of things that I would or would not want to portray. And again, when I'm accepting certain clients, it's not based on who they are or how they identify it, is strictly based off the message. In the same way, I wouldn't want to convey certain messages about marriage. I also would not want to endorse racism or condone violence. There's many, many things. ultimately my faith is the lend through which I view my artwork and how I choose to accept different projects. So I really am surveying and assessing each client based on my religious convictions

and the message that it's condoning. And what are your religious convictions regarding marriage? I mean, I'm sitting next to you. You're along with your second child. Congratulations. And, you know, I imagine it's very personal to you, but also what are the religious implications of marriage? So New York's law is actually so severe. I think I need to pass this over to my attorney, Kelly, because it actually dictates what I am and I'm not able to publicly say, which is part of the scare in this law. Wow.

It is a very extreme law that does compel her speech, but also prevents her from speaking freely when it comes to what her beliefs are. But her beliefs are to create consistent with her. faith that her faith teaches that marriage is a special relationship. It's, it's God's designed for marriage is between a husband and a wife, and that's a very sacred union, a very sacred relationship. And so when she tells love stories, she wants to tell love stories that are consistent with what her faith teaches her is marriage. And as she mentioned, she serves everyone. She has clients and photographs clients that identify as LGBT, but there's some messages, and marriage is one of them

that she can only create photographs and talk about that and promote it and celebrate marriage that goes consistent with what her faith teaches her as such a sacred union. Yeah, no, that stands to reason. And I know many Christians in referencing the Bible that marriage is often viewed as a symbol of the union between Christ and the church. And that this isn't just, you know, people like to think of this as a political issue, but I think there's something really theological behind it. Absolutely, and I think that's certainly very true for Emily. Emily's been married now to celebrate her fourth anniversary with her husband, John,

and she and Jack, our client Jack Phillips, our client Lori Smith, they all see marriage as that sacred union, and it does. It reflects the union between Christ and his church, and that's something that's beautiful, that's sacred, and that they want to be able to be free from government punishment to promote messages and custom artwork that's consistent with that belief. Well, is there anything else about your case that I don't think we've touched on? You know, those fines that New York would impose,

would those be like a case by case or like recurring? It would be the fines and the censorship and the possible jail time is per violation of the law. So it could get steep very quickly if you're able to find. find someone $100,000 every time you believe that they violate the law. So there's really a lot writing on this, and it doesn't have to be this way. New York does not need to be forcing and misusing its law to censor Emily's speech. It should allow her to create freely, and many states are able to enforce their public accommodation laws, ensure everyone has access to essential goods and services, and still respect the First Amendment. So it doesn't need to do this, especially for someone like

Emily, who does serve everyone, there's just certain messages that she can't promote. And that's true for any artist, whether you agree with Emily's beliefs about marriage or have other beliefs. All of us as Americans should be free to say what we believe without fear of government punishment. And I've heard some very personal stories. Baronel Stutzman speaks about a man, she'd love to have, she'd serve multiple times, giving him flowers that he would give to his, same-sex partner. Are there any personal relationships or like stories that you've worked with

people that would, that might request this message you could not serve, but you're glad to serve and have great experiences serving in other ways? Absolutely. Yeah, I have many friends and family members who identify as gay or within the LGBT community. And I'm happy to work with any. It's just certain messages that I'm not wanting to promote. And that does make it a very delicate situation to navigate because you are wanting to live out your faith and be true to the values you hold while also still respecting people who land on the other side of the aisle as you on whatever the issue may be. And I think that's really what's at stake here is wanting to have respect and tolerance be upheld and be the priority even with somebody who disagrees with you.

And that's really the beauty I think of living in a free and diverse society is being able to coexist with people and still have a flourishing marketplace, even when you disagree with other people. So really, whether you identify as religious or non-religious, I think there's something beautiful to be said about respecting the other person, and that's what we're wanting to see the government do in my instance, to respect my beliefs about marriage so that I can operate my business in line with my religious convictions, not with the fear of censorship or government and punishment, ultimately that I can choose the messages that I want to promote. Well, that's a very important stance and important message to get out there.

Is there anything else you guys would like to add? I will just say that the free speech is for everyone, and it's essential to a peaceful and to a pluralistic society, like Emily just mentioned. And all of us in America, we should really care what's happening in these cases in 303 creative and in Emily Carpenter's case, because at stake is the freedom, of all of us in the future of whether America will remain a nation where we can have civil discourse, we can have civil dialogue, we can respect one another, and disagree with that tolerance, with that respect for everyone. And ultimately, a win. In Emily's case, would truly be a win for all

Americans. And many have suggested that Alliance Defending Freedom is a powerful organization that, you know, conservative Christians have appeared to have power in our country, and therefore people on the left suggest that cases like yours, they like to frame it as, you know, conservatives wielding power over other people. In this, it seems to be the exact opposite to me. I'm looking across from you, how would your business, I mean, would you have to close your business if you face these fines is, you know, how, what would happen here? Yeah, you're in a pretty vulnerable position. I mean, not only are you up against those steep fines, but it's also my reputation

that's on the line. I am a wife. I'm a mom of two little kids, and you are in a very vulnerable position. I can remember even when I was delivering my son, my phone was getting blown up with ongoing media and PR, and it's, you're, you feel very, very, you feel very, very. You feel very, exposed when your name is being all over, you know, the online web. But even though it comes at a human cost, this is such an important thing because it extends beyond myself. This is something that all creative professionals should have confidence that their speech is protected, that they can create messages that are consistent with their core beliefs, because ultimately that's all I am wanting. I am wanting to have the freedom to choose these messages. Again, it's not about the person

and I serve everybody. It's just certain messages that I'm not at liberty to create because of my religious convictions. Well, thank you so much, Emily and Kelly. Where can people follow you and support the important legal work? Well, you can learn more about Emily's case. If you go to adflegal.org, We have information about Emily Carpenter and some of the other clients, courageous clients, who are standing up for free speech for everybody. And where can we find your website and where you do your photography? Yeah, my website is Emily Carpenter, and my name is with two E's, not a Y, E-M-I-L-E-E-Carpenter.com. That'll do it for today's podcast interview episode.

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