The Daily Signal - INTERVIEW | Pastor Wes Martin on Confronting Progressive Culture

Episode Date: October 3, 2022

Wes Martin is the lead pastor at Grace Church in St. Louis, where he’s led his congregation through the turbulent times of COVID-19 and some of the political debates that have shaped our society over the last couple of years. Martin spoke to The Daily Signal about his church’s mission and why he’s boldly confronting the progressive culture that’s undermining traditional American values. Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, October 3rd. I'm Virginia Allen. And I'm Rob Blewey. On today's show, I speak with Wes Martin, lead pastor at Grace Church in St. Louis. We talk about his church's mission and why he's boldly confronting the progressive culture that is undermining traditional American values. We also read your letters to the editor and share how you can be a part of bringing hope to the people of Florida as they recover from Hurricane Ian. Now stay tuned for today's show after this. Today, news you can trust feels like a rarity.

That's why the Daily Signal podcast releases a top news edition every weekday at 5 p.m. Whether driving home from work, fixing dinner, or picking the kids up from soccer practice, you can stay informed on the headlines you care about. Every show is quick and succinct, designed to keep you up to speed on the issues that actually matter. Catch our top news edition right here in your Daily Signal podcast feed. every evening or listen first thing in the morning before catching the day's interview. And be sure to subscribe on the Daily Signal podcast so you never miss an episode. We are joined on the Daily Signal podcast today by Wes Martin. He's the lead pastor at Grace Church in St. Louis. And he's led his church

through the turbulent times of COVID and some of the political debates that have really shaped our society over the last couple of years. Wes, thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, you bet. I'm real excited to be on here with you and just talk about some of the things that's challenging us, but at the same time, stirring us up and leaning into the Lord's faithfulness. So it's good stuff. Well, we have a loyal Daily Signal podcast listener, Alan Mensch, who is a parishioner with you and has turned me on to some of the videos. I just commend you for making them available publicly for all of us to watch and hear the inspirational message that you bring to your congregation each and every week to a much broader

audience beyond those who are just in St. Louis. I want to begin by asking you to share a little bit more about your own personal life, your journey, and what led you to become the lead pastor at Grace Church? Yeah, you know, I'm originally on the Illinois side, Southern Illinois is where I'm from. I got born again in my early 20s. I met my wife, and her and I did missions work and worked at a church out of Kansas City for years. And we've met here, you know, close to St. Louis. So St. Louis was kind of always are stomping grounds. And of course, our families are both in Illinois. And we came across Grace Church years, probably been 10 years now.

And Grace is one of the kind of the staple churches in the city. Been here almost 45 years. Our senior pastor, founding pastor, Ron Tucker, you know, started the church in his 20s in his parents' basement just down the road from where our campus is at in the late 70s, early 80s and it just it grew to a you know bigger church right out of the gate and you know Ron and Debbie's been just a some faithful shepherds here in the city for years and so when I began to know them and you know get a relationship and the door open the Lord opened up a door for us to move here see been seven years ago now just you know connected us it's an amazing church it's a very diverse church

racially and age wise and and and yeah so I jumped in with them and then over the the course of the last seven years, it just became clear to all of us. And the Lord, you know, put me in as the lead pastor, been over, say, about two years now. And so Ron is still here, still our founding senior pastor. We kind of always tell people the baton has kind of been in both of our hands right now. And, you know, I'm telling the younger guys, hey, you know, our future rests on honoring, you know, those that have gone before us. So it's been a good journey, real good journey. Well, Wes, congratulations on the, success you've had. One of the things that we often hear about is how, you know, fewer and fewer

Americans are identifying with, with religion or losing faith. And yet you have seen a tremendous growth at Grace Church. What are some of the things that you're doing to inspire your congregation and draw new people to your church? Yeah, you know, I think that number one is in such trying times with cultural confusion and a growing immorality in our society, you know, you're either going to conform or you're going to stand out and be controversial, unfortunately. Unfortunately, it's controversial, but it's biblical. And I think one of the things that I'm grateful for the generation that has gone before us here, and even in our founding pastor and Ron Tucker, is just a bold commitment to biblical truth no matter the cost.

And when the things do get darker, the good thing about light is that light gets brighter. And that's our goal, that's our hope, is that our light will get brighter as the church stands on biblical truth and biblical morality and allegiance to Jesus. And hopefully that people will begin to see that light and be drawn to it and see people get saved, lives transformed, and the goodness of biblical values going deep in family's lives. That's our prayer. One of the things that I've heard you say in some of the videos that I've been able to watch is that Ron, who you've talked about founding the church and being the senior pastor, really saw things coming before, I think a lot of people did, including yourself. You've made that reference. What is it about his foresight that has led to this interest in Grace Church? And what are you doing differently or what was he doing differently that really inspired so many people in St. Louis to pay attention? Yeah, that's quite the story. You know, Ron, I mean, back in the day in the late 70s, early 80s, when he was in his 20s and playing the church, he's always had the stories that I've heard about him, he's always had just that, you know, that intuitive spirit, just that connection with the Lord to always be able to kind of see things that were coming down, you know, down the pike and be willing to be bold and lean into the Lord. And so in the 80s, for example, you know, Grace was known as one of the leading churches in kind of the worship.

I don't know if you want to call it a revolution, but there was definitely a brand new expression in the worship world within the church. And that's really what put Grace on the map then. And he was at the forefront of that. So, you know, years ago, of course, you know, grace has always been vocal around issues of morality as it relates to abortion, as it relates to marriage. You know, Ron and the team were very clear on that. And a lot of churches were. But then in 2020, you know, with COVID and then George Floyd, there was, it was just different. There was something in the air and we couldn't put your finger on it.

And, you know, we shut down like everybody else did for about a month. But then, you know, the shutdowns wanted to continue. And then there was the debates. And then George Floyd happened. And then this rush of. social justice pressure. And, you know, you couldn't put your finger on it, but something didn't smell right. And Ron just really began to lean in, and the Lord met him and really gave you my heads up that there was, I mean, the way we explained it is basically a snake in the henhouse as it relates

to a false teaching of social justice and critical theory and Marxism. And of course, then none of us on staff and even Ron never even really paid attention to any of those things. But he began to do a deep dive and get equipped and hear some from other sources. And of course, look at the scriptures and realize that this worldview based in critical theory and Marxism, all throughout the social justice, black lives matter, you know, now of course gender theory, all of these things are just flat out unbiblical and not just unbiblical, but anti-gospel. And he was able to sniff that out. And I mean just like a bird.

dog. He just locked in on it. And like you said, it was, you know, it wasn't smooth sailing. There was, it was, you know, incredibly politically incorrect. So a lot of our people, including me and our staff, were kind of like, man, Ron, are you sure? And praise God for his graciousness, he kind of pulled us along. And then, of course, over time, I think, you know, one of the things that's happening is people are beginning to see it clearer and clearer and clearer. and that's what has brought us to this point. So for the last two years, the shift has been that we have been unrelenting in exposing what we would call a false teaching in society, poison, that many churches are even entertaining,

but we have just decided that we're going to be unrelenting and calling this stuff out because this worldview is unrelenting in coming after. us and our children and trying everything in its power to be an accepted worldview in American society right now. Well, and I give you a lot of credit and praise for that. I mean, you make no secret of it that you're confronting this progressive culture that is infecting so many aspects of American life and the institutions that I think Americans in the past came to as sources of trust and today are now questioning them. One of the things that I know has happened locally is that it's generated some headlines for you and maybe a share of controversy.

But despite that, and this is something that I've heard you talk about, you've had the courage to move forward and move beyond that and not let those detractors dissuade you from seeking the truth of God's word. So what is it about it when you are in a situation like that? What is it that gives you the courage? Well, I think it's because you have to either believe the scriptures or you don't. And once you have settled it in your heart that you're going all in with the truth of scripture as it relates to sexuality, as it relates to gender, as it relates to marriage,

and then also American history as the role of the church in American society. You know, our founders knew that this unique republic would only work if there was a morality, specifically, a kind of a God-centered morality, that's the only way it would work. and the role of the church in the founding fathers and in the early, you know, days of America, the church is where we discussed civic engagement and policy and, you know, politics, if you will. And then somewhere along the line, the church drank the Kool-Aid that we weren't to be, quote-unquote, political, and the separation of church and state.

And it's that that whole idea has been so confused. And the many of the church, including me, and for many years, of my faith, have we've been duped by that. And so when we realize that the role of the church, as it relates to the moral fabric of our nation, it's the pulpits, it's critical for us in the pulpits and preachers and teachers of the Bible to be very vocal, very bold. And that has to include politics. That's the area it affects all of our congregations, real policies, things that our kids are dealing with, it's the one area that we should, in my opinion, sometimes affect the most because we want to see that biblical standard of morality in that area

of life, in that area of civic engagement. So we see the rightness of scripture, number one, and then the second thing is the role of the church as it relates to morals in society and in politics. And if we see those two things as being right, then we're locking in because it's right. And one of the things that you do to bring that message to your congregation and others who tune in online is have some fairly dynamic speakers come in an address. And you most recently had my colleague here at the Heritage Foundation, Delano Squires, addressed the congregation on Saturday and Sunday. And tell us about the unique aspect of that, because frankly, I don't know that many churches are moving in that direction, but really it was compelling to hear you

interview him and have that conversation, which is very relevant to all of our lives in this day and age. I tell you, I mean, Delano Squires, that guy just hit it out of the park. You know, so Ron and I, for the last two years, we've been saying this, but here's the way it works. You know, sometimes people will receive a certain message when it's, you know, it comes from our typical particular person. And most preachers will understand this. You could you could preach on any given topic over and over and over again. And then your congregation or, you know, a few congregants will hear the same message from a different person. And it's like all of a sudden the lights turn on. So we understand that dynamic. We're all like that. We can receive from different people for whatever

reason. So we decided this last year that we're going to find people that are like-minded, you know, brothers and sisters in the Lord that have, also been fearless in engaging the cultural wars, and we're going to reach out to them and say, hey, come and help us, you know, come in and be a, almost like a, not a backup, but just another voice saying the same thing. Reinforcements, that's the word I was looking for. So we've, you know, we've, we've reached out, Charlotte Kirk has been here this last year. We've reached out and Bill Federer, David Barton, these are all guys that are speaking into culture. and also stirring the church to not be silent.

And so we came across Delano. I think he was on a podcast with Jason Whitlock and Fearless. And we, you know, we say, oh, my goodness, you know, here's a guy that's in D.C., a black man, you know, in his, I think he's 40, that is being incredibly clear and bold. And we reached out. It worked out. And, yeah, Delano, he spent time with about 40 or 50 liters on. Saturday morning and then I interviewed just his journey of how he has, you know, come to this place

of being at the point of the arrow in the midst of these cultural wars with an incredible biblical worldview committed to Jesus, committed to the scriptures, and bold as all get out. And so we're committed to continue it. You know, even looking at the schedule in 2023, we're just going to continue to bring people in that are committed to not be silent and to, uh, you know, be willing to take the cost because there is a cost. It's very, like I said earlier, politically incorrect, but it's we have to. We have to stay clear to what the truth is so that we don't begin dilute and back away from the truth. So I'm super grateful for Delano and super excited that he's there at the Heritage Foundation with you all now. Well, we certainly are as

well. We are delighted that he's joined the team. We'll be sure for our listeners, who would like to watch the interview and see more of the content to embed the video on the Daily Signal. So visit DailySignal.com and look for the transcript of this interview and you'll be able to watch Delano's appearance. Wes, the reason that you and I first connected was actually I heard a conversation between Ron Tucker and yourself about an event you went to with Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA. And it was really eye-opening to hear you describe it. and the people that he brought together from across the country and the good work that was being done over that weekend. Can you share with our listeners about that experience

and what your takeaways were? Yeah, you know, Charlie Kirk was a guy I've been somewhat familiar with for the last couple of years, young kid, and, you know, I knew he was really bright. You know, he goes on these college campuses. He engages and challenges young people to think critically. So we had him here in the spring of this year, I think it was April or May, just for a Sunday night.

They had about a couple thousand people. I didn't know what to expect. You know, I never met him personally. The same kind of thing. I interviewed him the way I interviewed Delano. And I tell you, just first off, I was over the top impressed. I mean, Charlie's only 28 years old. You know, he has a company called Turning Point, Phoenix, Arizona, about 300 employees full-time.

Not bad for a 28-year-old. And fully engaged. just a biblical worldview, loves Jesus, committed to the Christian life. I tell you what I was most impressed with with him, though, was his character and his, the spirit in which he carried was very humble, very godly. The way he interacted with Ron and Debbie and just those that have gone before us in a very respectful, honoring way. And so he told me, he said, hey, I'm gathering about a couple hundred pastors in San Diego

in August. would love to, you know, for you to come along. He actually had somebody underwrite the whole thing. So all the speakers, probably about 30 speakers, a couple hundred pastors and our wives. They paid the bill for all of it. I mean, airfare, hotel, all the speakers for three days. And while I'm telling me, we went from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. And business leaders, bankers, a few politicians, pastors, all committed.

to the Lord because in turning point there is a what they call turning point faith i think there's about 50 employees that are specifically engaged on helping the church to be mobilized and engaged in the cultural wars and so you know the i think the biggest thing that encouraged me was seeing people whether it be in business or whether it be in church worlds from pastors that are willing to take the heat and willing to be unpopular or have, you know, smear campaigns from various articles or people like Vice News, writing, you know, bad things about them or in their local papers, and not conforming, you know, not bowing the knee, not backing away, but staying true to Jesus with a spirit of humility and yet confronting lies that are all over our culture. I was inspired and lit up because, you know,

courage stirs up courage. And so I went away from that weekend thinking, you know what, we've been on this journey, because sometimes you can feel you're all alone. And pastors will say, man, I'm glad you're doing it, but then, you know, kind of back away from you, that kind of thing. But I came back from that weekend, encouraged that, you know what, the Lord has people all over this nation that are bold and courageous, filled with the spirit of God, and not afraid right now, and leaning in. And so, yeah, I came back from that. Like you said, Ron was asking me all about it, and I was definitely encouraged coming back from that weekend.

He's actually having another one from what I hear. I think he's doing one in Nashville coming up in May. Well, that's exciting. We are frequent presence at Turning Point conferences. We recognize that that's the next generation that's going to be leading this country. And so those of us at the Daily Signal and the Heritage Foundation are enthusiastic supporters of the good work that that organization is doing. and glad to hear about the experience being so positive.

That's fantastic. Wes, what is your advice to those who might be listening or reading this interview and either are seeking a church home or maybe are like that increasing percentage of Americans who have lost faith in God? What do you say to them at this time when there does seem to be so much division in our country and a loss of hope about the future? Well, first of all, it's important to know that in our culture, and in our country, that the Bible is growing more and more unpopular or really in the sense of

being hostile towards a secular worldview. That's coming straight from our Oval Office, a lot of our politicians, there is an absolute test right now on the validity of Scripture. And the scriptures have definitely lasted the test of time. And so as far as the integrity and the ability of the scriptures, there's nothing that's, you know, nothing new under the sun. It's not changed. God's word is still invaluable and trustworthy. And Jesus is still saving and redeeming people, no matter the junk that we find ourselves in. That's the good news of the gospel. However, right now, the church is seemingly to be confused and a lot of pulpits are backing away because some of these biblical truths are, quote unquote politically incorrect. So I would encourage people, number one, to find a church and be drawn into a community of people that aren't afraid to stand on the validity of the Bible where they're preaching the truth no matter the cost. You know, the Bible says that the truth will set us free.

It's not our version of truth. It's truth that can endure the test of time. It's truth that is based on the validity of what Jesus has spoken, what the word. is spoken, I just, I feel so compelled right now to make sure people are finding themselves in a family of people, a spiritual family, where the truth is being spoken. Because it is this truth that will actually set us free from the entanglement of the lies that are being perverted right now, so much in our culture. At the same time, not to be afraid. For those that are on the fence in the church, Christians that are afraid of the truth because it's great. growing more and more hostile, I would say this, I would say, guys, we are born for such a time as this.

And when we lean in and let God help us deal with that fear of man that all of us are sometimes susceptible to, the grace of God that will touch our hearts and our minds to give us clarity, to give us conviction and boldness will absolutely surprise us. You know, I'm not a kind of guy that goes looking for conflict. That's not my personality. Yet through this, taking a stand and being bold, I have felt the nearness of God's presence in a way that I don't think I ever have. And that is the Lord's grace for anybody right now that calls upon his name

and is willing to stand upon the truth of the scriptures. Well, thank you. Thank you for that. And thank you for all you're doing to bring that message to so many people. Again, they're in St. Louis, but really are probably across the world who tune into your videos and the other content that you produce. And finally, Wes, I just want to give you an opportunity to share a little bit more about how our listeners can learn more about Grace Church, how they can find some of the content online. And if they are interested in either watching a service over the weekend or a guest speaker like a Dolano Squires, how do they do that? Yeah, you know, I mean, we stream just about everything we do.

every weekend is streamed on our Facebook page. You can just look up, you know, Grace Church, St. Louis, our YouTube page as well. We've been, you know, thrown in YouTube jail a couple times, but mostly we're still on there. Or just our website, you know, www.ggracestl.org. We can, you can find the archives of different speakers that we've had in here. We stream live every weekend. And I also wanted to say this as well. one thing that we've done with Turning Point,

you know, Turning Point Faith offers chapters that we actually have one here at Grace Church, where they will actually come and help churches to have some real practical steps on engaging their congregation within some of these hot topic cultural issues, great resources, a team of young people that are helping our young people to be informed and engaged. They've really been a help to us as we've taken on this journey in the last couple of years. Well, I know I am enthusiastic about the work that you're doing, and I hope that others follow the model that you've helped establish here, because I think it is so critical for our churches to play a role and not disengage. I will make sure that we leave some links to your church and the YouTube page and the other content that people can certainly download and take a look at.

And Wes, thanks to you, thanks to Pastor Ron and everybody else there at Grace Church for helping us see the truth. and bringing these issues to the surface. I appreciate the time, man. I think it's incredible just to link arms with you guys, knowing that you're taking the same stand and being bold and courageous. So grace, grace, man, God bless you. That's Wes Martin.

He's the lead pastor at Grace Church St. Louis. Wes, thank you and wish you all the best. God bless you. Want the inside scoop on what's happening here at the Heritage Foundation? Check out Herd at Heritage and all-new show replacing the Herod. events podcast. It'll feature cutting-edge analysis and thought from leading experts in and across the conservative movement and of course the Heritage Foundation's premier events and programming

brought straight to you. Check it out at heritage.org slash podcasts. Thanks for sending us your letters to the editor. Each Monday we feature our favorites on this show. Virginia, who's up first? Randy Burdron of Davidson, Michigan, sent us an email in response to Han Von Spakovsky and Cully Stimson's piece, FBI Justice Department. twist federal law to arrest, charge pro-life activist. Bergeron writes, Dear Daily Signal, once a federal law enforcement agency becomes political and provides its services at the behest of one side of the political spectrum to be used against opposing citizens on the other side of that spectrum, then that agency is of no further use to the

citizenry as a whole and must be abolished. Since its continued existence has become a major threat to the peace and tranquility of the entire society. And in response to Mary Margaret O'lahan and Jillian Richards' piece, abuse of power, lawmakers tear into DOJ for arrest of pro-life father in front of screaming children, we received this letter from Bruce Wessel. I'm outraged at the action of the FBI once again for their unnecessary raid on this man's home. The once-respected agency has become nothing more than a secret police found in many communist countries. Apparently, he was arrested for allegedly breaking a federal law.

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but also advance conservative principles and impact public policy. It's just a two-day commitment and we're currently taking applications for October. Get more information and sign up at heritage.org slash training. Just look for the Ready Set Hill program. Virginia, we've seen so much devastation over the last week with Hurricane Ian. And you have a good news story to share with us coming out of that disaster. Tell us more. Thanks, Rob.

You know, it really is always my honor and my joy to share good news every Monday morning. And over the years, I've realized that some of the most powerful pieces of good news that we have shared right on this show have come from challenging situations and circumstances. Because as Americans, that's truly one of our greatest attributes that in times of need and hardship, we show up to help. And that's exactly what is happening right now in Florida. And we all have a chance to be a part of creating some of that good in the Sunshine State. Hurricane Ian, it tore through Florida Wednesday and Thursday. Heavy rains and high winds destroyed homes and took lives. And amid the disaster, Florida First Lady Casey DeSantis says Americans are stepping up to help.

Because the people across the state and the country have stepped up big. to support our Florida Disaster Fund. First Lady DeSantis activated the Florida Disaster Fund to provide financial support to communities hit hardest by the storm. And within just 24 hours of launching that fund, 1.6 million was raised. These are resources that are going to go directly to help the people of Florida. We are going to remove any red tape and bureaucracy from getting those funds deployed to the people who need them immediately.

The governor and the First Lady are asking that all Americans consider helping. If you're interested in supporting the people of Florida, the governor is asking Americans to maybe consider giving a financial gift to the Florida Disaster Fund. Financial resources can really help people get their unique needs met. We have everything we need in terms of supply. But if you go to Florida Disasterfund.org or text Disaster to 20, 2-2-2, you can provide some much appreciated assistance. And if you have a little time on your hands and would like to be a part of that volunteer effort,

then you can visit www.volunteer.org. And also, if you're interested in giving a financial gift, you can visit that same website, volunteer florida.org to learn how you can be a part of the good news in Florida. Virginia, at a time when so many people are looking to help, thank you so much for sharing those opportunities. And again, our prayers go out to all of those who've been affected, not just in Florida, but across the country by this hurricane. Absolutely. Well, we're going to leave it there for today. You can find the Daily Signal podcast on the Rurkishay Audio Network. All of our shows are available at dailysignal.com slash podcast. You can also subscribe on Apple Podcast, Google Play,

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