The Daily Signal - INTERVIEW | Ryan Michler on 'How a Man Establishes Influence, Credibility, and Authority'

Episode Date: October 26, 2022

When does a male quit being a boy and enter manhood? The answer has little to do with his age, Ryan Michler says.  Michler, the host of the “Order of Man” podcast and author of the new book “The Masculinity Manifesto: How a Man Establishes Influence, Credibility, and Authority,” has a simple definition for when a boy becomes a man.  “A boy consumes more than he produces, and a man produces more than he consumes,” he says.  “When you are producing more than you consume—meaning, you're able to give value to the people and others around you—you are acting like a man. That's manly behavior,” the author says, adding, “We would call that individual a man.”  Michler joins “The Daily Signal Podcast” to discuss his new book and how males can become men of influence as fathers, husbands, and leaders within their workplace and community.  Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Wednesday, October 26th. I'm Virginia Allen. What does it mean for a boy to become a man? And how does a man create authority within his fears of influence? Ryan Mickler is the host of the Order of Man podcast, an author of the new book, The Masculinity Manifesto, how a man establishes influence, credibility, and authority. He joins me on the show today to discuss his new book and how men can become leaders in their home, and community. Stay tuned for our conversation after this. Want the inside scoop on what's happening here at the Heritage Foundation? Check out Herd at Heritage and all new show replacing the Heritage Events Podcast. It'll feature cutting-edge analysis and thought from leading experts in and across the

conservative movement and of course the Heritage Foundation's premier events and programming. Brought straight to you. Check it out at heritage.org slash podcasts. Ryan Mickler is the host of the Order of Man podcast and author of the new book, The Masculinity Manifesto, How a Man establishes Influence, Credibility, and Authority. Ryan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation today. Well, since 2015, you have been talking to men about what it actually means to be a man

on your podcast, Order of Man. And on the show, you have talked to so many different incredible men and very different men from people like Dan Crenshaw to Matthew McConaughey, Ben Shapiro, Dave Ramsey. what started you on this journey of talking about manhood and how did you ultimately then end up writing a book about masculinity? Yeah, I wish I could tell you that I started it in order to help other people. I really started it to help myself. I was trying to be a better father, a better husband, a better business owner, just a better man in general. And I actually had another podcast that focused on helping medical professionals with their financial services, because that's my

background. And I realized very quickly I love the medium of podcasting, but I didn't want to have that same conversation. So I decided to make that pivot in 2015. And I thought a podcast would be a great way for me to talk with other men that I'm motivated by and inspired by. And what reason would they have to talk with me other than maybe put this into a podcast format where I could have one to one conversations and consultations with them and then publish them? So that's what I did. And we found out very, very quickly that there was a need and a desire for these types of conversations. And here we are seven years later with, I think, close to or over 900 interviews now and a couple of books. And I think I just saw that we have 45 million total

downloads on our podcast. It's been unreal. Wow. That's awesome. Because there is, you're right. There's such a hunger in culture today to have this conversation. about manhood. And I think for for men to be affirmed in their identity and who they are, and I mean, really, that's what everybody wants, right, to have that affirmation. But especially around that topic of masculinity and manhood, that's so critical at this moment. So we're talking, we're talking with Ryan McClure, he's the author of the new book, The Masculinity Manifesto, how a man establishes influence, credibility, and authority. And Ryan, you talk about both on the podcast and in this book, you talk about these three works.

that you say make a man, protect, provide, and preside. What exactly do you mean by this? Why are these three words significant to manliness? Well, I'm glad you used the word manliness because a lot of the times people will use the term masculinity. I mean, it is in the title of the book, the masculinity manifesto. But what I want to be very clear about is masculinity is amoral. It's neither good nor bad. So usually you'll have two sides of the equation. One camp will say masculinity is inherently toxic and destructive and dangerous. And then you'll have this other side that says masculinity is inherently good and productive and righteous. Neither one are actually true because masculinity is just a set of characteristics and behaviors that are determined by our biological makeup, our hormones and other

things like that. So it's how we utilize our biological makeup, testosterone or masculinity the characteristics that inherently we possess generally in greater degrees than women, uh, that make us men. So for example, violence might be one, one that we could isolate. Uh, if a man decides to attack somebody and violently assault that individual, I think we can all agree that that is not a righteous use of his ability to be physically dominant, for example. But if on the other hand, I saw that taking place and I used my ability to exercise and exert my will and my force and my power over that person, then I think we would all agree that that would be more manly.

That would be manly behavior. So the reason I talk about protect, provide, preside are those are the three general, broad archetypes of manliness, the ability to protect yourself and other people, the ability to provide for yourself and other people emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually. and then the ability to preside, which is synonymous with leadership. So leading people effectively as well. Well, and this really goes into the fact that you talk about the fact that, you know, every, every, you know, male is obviously born a male, but there's a process to becoming a man.

And there's actually steps that males can take to become a man. Draw that distinction for us, if you would. Yeah. The line is actually very clear. A boy consumes more than he produces, and a man produces more than he consumes. That's it. I've got three sons.

I've got a daughter as well, but we're talking about boys right now. So I've got three sons. They're not men. We don't even expect them to be. Young men, sure, boys, yes. But they consume more than they produce. They take a lot of time and energy and resources,

financial capital, a lot of different things to be able to raise those young men, right? And that's okay. But then you have other young men. I've seen 15, 16, 17 year olds who act more like men than maybe even some 35 and 40 year olds who are still living in mommy and daddy's basement, living off of their parents' income and not providing at all. So the distinction is actually very, very clear. When you are producing more than you consume, meaning you're able to give value. to the people and others around you, you are acting like a man. That's manly behavior. We would call that individual a man. Hmm. That's a really interesting definition. I've never heard that before. I love that.

It's basic. It's straightforward. It gets the point across really clearly. I mean, how... When we even talk about the behavior, I was going to say we even talk about what we would say is men. And it's, I don't want to get tripped up over semantics. It's easy to do. But I'm just defining these terms so we know what in the world we're talking about. But we would take those males of what we would consider at the age of man, right? So a 20 year old, a 25 year old, a 30 year old. But we'll call them boys if they're not doing manly things, right? If they're still living at mommy and daddy's house, we will call them boys. Now, technically they're no, they're not boys, but we call them that because we inherently recognize that they're not behaving like men should

behave. So then how in the culture and the day and age that we live in, where, you know, are talking about things like toxic masculinity. How do we encourage boys to become men? Well, it starts with ourselves as men, number one, making sure that we're living our ideals, that we're exercising our manliness, that we are trying to and striving to become better men ourselves, and then in turn to be able to turn around and look at the young men and the boys that were there to serve. That could be within the walls of your home, your own son.

that could be as simple as coaching a little league sports team. I used to do that quite a bit and it was amazing to me and frustrating how hard it was to find other fathers or members of the community who would step up and help me coach. We always had one or two and I'm very grateful for them, but it was very, very difficult to find those men to step up and help coach. And I know that there was a lot of young men on my team who we as coaches were their only real father, present father figure in their lives and that's got to change so we lead by example we lead ourselves and then we start to magnify our reach by participating in sports by participating in community activities by participating in church activities and men's callings these types of things right i want to ask you if you would to speak

to both the men listening and to the women listening for for our guys out there who who are their established men and, you know, they're thinking, oh, gosh, I would love to do something to help mentor kind of bring up the next generation to cross that line from boyhood to manhood. What would you say to them? And then also, what would you say to women? How can we be a support to the males in our lives and encourage and inspire them to be the men that they are created to be? Yeah. So with the men, I would just echo what I said. Go go to the little league team or a sports team. and say, we want to coach. I guarantee they will be happy to have you. They'll run a background check. Uh, they'll ask for your qualifications and they'll get you going. It's as simple as that.

You could even go down to your community center and say, hey, I'd like to participate in sports, or maybe you have a special knowledge with podcasting, for example, and you'd like to teach a community course to young men in the community. There might even be extracurricular activities at school that you can participate in based on your, uh, your knowledge and your skill set. It's very easy. It takes a little bit of effort. just to go out and see where you can start serving these young men. Another area might be in your church organization. If there's not a young men's program, maybe you can get together with your pastor or other men and find out a way to get together with the young men in your church organization

once a week. And you do things like shooting or service work or, you know, you go bowling and you can mix that in with some sort of spiritual undertone or message to your activities. So many different ways to do it. To the women, I would say let, I'd say it this way, ensure that your sons and the boys that you have some sort of responsibility for are around other men. My mom raised me primarily on her own. And she did as good a job as she could have as a woman. And I'm not saying that to take away any of the hard work or effort that she put into raising my sister and I. But she recognized that I needed to be around other men. There was avoided my life that she could not possibly fill. And again, Again, that's not to put her down or knock her at all, but she recognized that.

And what she did, one of the best things for me was to step back, drop the ego, drop the pride, and figure out a way to get me involved with other men. And that was done in my life primarily through competitive sports and coaches who stepped up for me. That's critical. As you wrote the masculinity manifesto, did you have a certain section of the book that you found for you was particularly challenging. or hard to write or even that, you know, as you found yourself writing it, you were thinking,

oh gosh, I know that this is an area where, you know, I need to invest more time. All of it. And I don't want that to be, I'll give you, I'll get more specific, but I don't want that to be a cop out answer. But admittedly, you know, I thought I was writing a book for other people. But as, as I wrote it and even it was, it was very telling for me when I read the book for the audio version that we made available, I would go through and I'm like, oh, I'm not doing that or I'm not doing this, or I'm not living up to that ideal, or I'm not living up to that standard. And what I realized is that I actually wrote that book for myself more than I did for anybody else. And it was almost, it was actually a little bit difficult for me to read the book because I

realized that I'm falling short of the ideals that I try to espouse and that I'm trying to teach to other men. So that that was a real challenge for me. But one thing I talk about in the book is bear the burden. And I talk about that in the first part of the book is bearing the burden of masculinity. And it is a burden. And it is hard. And it is challenging. And it's often thankless. And we don't get rewarded maybe in the way that we think we should or we don't get the accolage or the notoriety at best. And at worst, our efforts are undermined and mocked and ridiculed and dismissed. And so what? We need to do it anyways. We need to step up. We need to sacrifice. We need to do the things that we need to be doing. That means being disciplined towards those activities and behaviors and really live a life

of service to other people, which is an undertone of the book itself. For those who read the book, what is your hope that they will walk away with? My hope, I'll say it for men and for women, because I know both will read it. My hope for men is that they can learn that contrary to popular culture's opinion, you don't have to be ashamed of being manly. And you don't have to act like a woman in order to be a productive, healthy member of society. Now, we need to learn how to harness. And I talk about some very interesting subjects from violence to dominance to violence to stoicism and competitiveness and vigilance topics that you don't hear a lot about that even in a lot of ways have a negative connotation. But I talk about how we can harness those

characteristics for righteous and productive outcomes for ourselves and other people. And I want men to grasp the idea that violence, for example, in it of itself is not bad. It's how we utilize it. Or that competitiveness, although taken to the extreme, could create some problems, but done in a healthy way can actually innovate and drive new ideas and new ways of living and new ways of doing things. So that's what I would look for for the men. For the women, I would want them to recognize what a good, capable, strong moral man looks like and talk with their husbands or boyfriends about that. Expect that of the men in their lives. Expect that of their sons, hopefully use that. I do have a lot of single mothers who reach out to me because they don't have

this father figure in their son's lives, wondering what they can do to raise their boys right. And I answered the question earlier, but I hope that this book will help them see that They're going to have some characteristics and some behaviors that maybe a woman wouldn't necessarily completely understand, but this might help her navigate that and get her boys around other men so they can learn how to harness that masculinity that's coursing through their veins. Yeah, it's excellent. Now, Ryan, you have done, as I mentioned, through your podcast, you've done interviews with so many different men who are, all have platforms who are giving back to society, but in vastly different ways. I mean, obviously people like Dave Ramsey versus a Matthew McConaughey versus a Ben Shapiro. I mean, they're all doing such different things.

At the end of the day, in all of those conversations, are there any themes that you have taken away from the hundreds of conversations that you have with men about, you know, kind of the core desires of a man's heart for, you know, what he is ultimately, what he's ultimately aiming for or what is kind of that deep-seated longing in the heart of every man, no matter his platform, no matter whether he's more artsy, more athletic, what is that thing that is core to so many men that's kind of driving them forward that as a society we need to be aware of. So I will steal this answer because I think there's a gentleman by the name of John Eldridge who said it significantly better than I ever could. And what he is saying, and I think you actually

alluded to it. Have you read any of his, like Wild at Heart? I have. I've read Wild at Heart, so disclaimer there. Yeah, well, the way you said it, I was like, oh, she must have read Wild at Heart. He says that men are constantly striving to answer the question, do I have what it takes? Do I have what it takes. And that's what I'm trying to answer. Do I have what it takes to be the kind of husband I want to be? Do I have what it takes to father my children? Do I have what it takes to grow a business so that I can provide for my family financially? Do I have what it takes to protect myself and others in a violent encounter? And we as men derive a lot of our sense of worth on the answer to those questions. Now, I don't know if that's exactly right, meaning I don't know if we should do that because then there might be some self-esteem and confidence issues.

But I know that when I take a real good look at where I'm deficient and then I match that with effort and growth in those areas, I begin to bridge the gap and answer that question more productively, which is, yes, I do have what it takes and I feel good about the work I've done to get there. Yeah. Well, Ryan, we certainly appreciate the work that you're doing to really inspire other men to embrace who they are, who they've been created to be, and to lean in to their masculinity and to not be ashamed of that. So we encourage all of our listeners to pick up a book of the masculinity manifesto, how a man establishes influence, credibility, and authority. You can get it on Amazon wherever books are sold. Ryan, thank you so much your time today. We really appreciate it. appreciate you joining us. Thank you. Honor to join you and I love the conversation. And that'll do it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to The Daily Signal Podcast. If you have not had the chance already, be sure to check out our evening show right here in this podcast feed where we bring you the top news of the day. Also, make sure to take a moment to subscribe to the Daily Signal podcast wherever you listen and help us reach more listeners by leaving us a five-star review and rating on Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen.

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