The Daily Signal - INTERVIEW | ‘The Truth Will Shine’: Tiananmen Square Survivor Has Message for Chinese Protesters

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

More than 30 years ago, ordinary residents of China protested in Beijing’s Tiananmen Square, where authorities reacted by reportedly killing at least 10,000. Sean Lin, who traveled to Beijing to attend those protests in 1989, recalls those events as “a historical moment in [China’s] modern history.” Lin, who served as a U.S. Army microbiologist and is currently an assistant professor in Fei Tian College’s Biomedical Science Department in Middletown, New York, recalls that “not only students actively joined the protests,” but “a lot of civilians from all walks of life all supported this movement.” “At the time, I think the main theme is anti-corruption because after the Cultural Revolution ended, the Communist Party allowed certain levels of economy reform,” Lin says. “So, many of the party elites quickly get rich using their privilege, using their powers.” He added: “So, immediately, the Chinese people see the society become polarized … I think it triggered a huge anger against the corruption level at the time.” Lin brings this frame of reference to discussing the ongoing unrest in China triggered after at least 10 persons died and at least nine were hurt last Thursday in an apartment fire in northwestern China’s Xinjiang region during the nation’s COVID-19 lockdown.  “I think at that time in the 1980s, people definitely were very, very angry and upset about the corruption level. But at that time, nobody even … call for a step-down of the Communist Party,” Lin says.  “But now, 33 years later, I think people are totally disappointed and [have] totally lost any confidence in the Communist Party.”  Lin joins “The Daily Signal Podcast” to talk about his experience during the Tiananmen Square protests, his thoughts on the Biden administration’s response to the current protests in China, and his message to those protesting. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In 1989 movements, it's a historical moment in China. And at a time, not only students actively joined the protests, and a lot of civilians from all walks of life, all supported this movement. This is the Daily Signal podcast for Thursday, December 1st. I'm Samantha Sherris. And that was Dr. Sean Lynn. He is joining the podcast today. He served as a U.S. Army officer and microbiologist,

and also survived the Tiananmen Square Massacre back in 1989, more than 30 years ago. He shares his experience on the ground in Beijing and also gives us some perspective into what's happening in China today. We'll get to my conversation with Sean Lin right after this. Conservative women, conservative feminist. It's true. We do exist. I'm Virginia Allen, and every Thursday morning on problematic women, Lauren Evans and I sort through the news. news to bring you stories that are of particular interest to conservative leaning or problematic women. That is women whose views and opinions are often excluded or mocked by those on the so-called

feminist left. We talk about everything from pop culture to politics and policy. Plus, we bring you an exclusive interview with a problematic lawmaker or conservative activist every second and fourth Tuesday of the month. Search for problematic women wherever you get your podcast. And we are also problematic on social media. So be sure to follow us on Instagram. Dr. Sean Lynn is joining the podcast now. He served as a U.S. Army officer and microbiologist and survived the Tiananmen Square massacre in 1989. Sean, thank you so much for joining us. Samantha, it's my pleasure to join your program. Now, let's go back to 1989 before we talk about the unrest that we're seeing unfold in China and even throughout the globe today.

So what was it like during the Tiananmen Square protests? In 1989 movement, it's a historical moment in China modern history. And at a time, not only students actively joined the protests and a lot of civilians from all walks of life, all supported this movement. At the time, I think the main theme is anti-corruption. Because after the cultural revolution ended, the Communist Party allow certain levels of economy reform. So many of the party elites quickly get rich using their privilege, using their powers. So immediately, the Chinese people see the society become polarized, and the Communist Party elites getting rich so fast. And so I think it triggered a huge anger against the corruption level at a time.

But now they actually, now the corruption is even much bigger, much bigger scale than the 1980s. But at the time, already triggered a big protest. So at the time, you got support from all walks of life in China, basically. So the protests in Beijing is like the main hub for students from different part of China to go to Beijing to voice their. protests together. So I was a freshman at Zhijian University at the time, so I also got an opportunity to, went to Beijing to join the protest. And it was very, very impressed because you see people supporting the students gathering in the Tiananmen Square. And so even on the way to the Tiananmen Square, you see other civilians, you know, as long as they see you are heading

to Tianan Square, they're passing your water, they're passing your food, they encourage students to stay on the Tiananmen Square to continue their protests. It was a very, very touchy moment. Yeah, tell us a little bit about your decision to go to Beijing and support these movements and this protests back in 1989. I mean, were you scared of being arrested? Like, what was your mindset at that moment? I see at a time, just like young people,

you have no knowledge about the brutality of the government. So you don't have too much fear when you go to Beijing. You just feel something important happening in China, you know, in Beijing especially. So I just want to go there to visit. But in Hanzhou at the time, there are also smaller scales of protests. So I participate there earlier. So I see it's an important and righteous cause. You know, people call for freedom of press, freedom of, you know, speech,

freedom of assembly as well as anti-corruption, you know, to end. the Communist Party elites ruling the society or things like that. So I think it's righteous cause, even just from your basic common sense as a young people, you know, you feel this is important. I want to join it. So I took a chance to take the train to Beijing to join it. You don't know enough to cruelty, the Communist Party can enact on Chinese people. Yeah, that is so incredible.

I have been covering and looking at the protests that are going on in China right now and just have been amazed by the courage and the bravery of these people that are standing up to the Chinese Communist Party. Before we talk about present day, I just want to ask if you, you know, going back to 1989, you know, to present day, what changes have you've seen over the last, you know, decades, few decades in China and respect to their rights there. Yeah, I think it's actually a huge change in China. And actually today's, you just saw the news that the former leader, Jandeming, passed away in China, right? So actually, after 1989, that Jandeming came into power. And then the next 13 years, he empowered.

And then after the, after him, Hu Jintao, but Hu Jinta still in the shadow. Hoh Chingda is still being controlled by Jiang Zemin. So Jiangzeging is actually in direct control or in indirect control of China. And so for more than 20 years. So it's a huge change in China because overall during the German periods, he emphasized in Chinese people. You just need to focus on getting rich, getting money, regardless of the means that you can take.

So basically he ruled China using corruptions, using corruption to make sure that communist party member stay loyalty to the party. And they're using corruption to bribe the social elites, the intellectual elites, or kind of different level of the government systems, also using the corruption to make sure they follow his order. Even in 1989, when he persecuted Falun Gong, he established. the 6-10 office, especially responsible for persecution of Falun Gong. So that system is actually totally out of the legal judicial system. So he can enacting this kind of system, using the money to bribe these officers in the judicial system to carry out a crackdown policy.

So basically, he emphasized in the Chinese society, you know, just focus on GDP's growth and regardless of how much sacrifice on the environment, on the, uh, social improvement or many other things you can sacrifice as long as you get a good GDP right so basically you you quickly bring the whole morality of the China down very very fast so you now they probably international society know China I always have some fake products coming out right steering intellectual property all this kind of problem but that was triggered after 1989 persecution after Zhang Da Min came into power the people were encouraged just focus on profit, focus on your interests,

and so regardless of any means you can use. So I think that after that there is a huge decline in morality in China. So also they strongly suppress people's freedom of speech. So now they, for young people, many people don't know about the Tiananmen's School massacre. So I have no idea that Chinese government actually used tank to crack down a student protest. So this is a very, very different generation now. So it's actually very surprising to see now young people actually has the courage again to come out to protest. Even Khor stepped down on the Communist Party.

I think probably things have both sides, right? They still have no idea what happened in 1989. So they don't know about the cruelty as well, just like me at the beginning. So these younger generation now, they step forward. They want to call for a step on Xi Jinping, a step on the CCP, because many of people still have no idea about the brutality that Communist Party can do. And in the last two decades, so many crackdown against underground Christians,

against Uyghurs, against Tibetans, right, against Falun Gong. So many of the young people, they don't know, because the government now has established digital totalitarian. They control the message that people can receive. So it's more intricate brainwashing than before, before the 1989. Because in the 1980s, the depressed environment was relatively loose. So the Chinese people can still see some, you know, foreign information. And so now it's just so tightly controlled.

People were locked down more tightly. You know, visually we can see, like under zero COVID policy, Chinese people were locked down in their house and home, right? But I think in the ideologue to world, in the mind, in the psychologists, Chinese people were also locked down for a long time because they cannot assess to free information for a long, long time, and they've been brainwashed. So this is the overall situation. I think it's very, very different than the situation in 1980s. Yeah, and I'm also curious to, you know, when you were, you know, a freshman in college, heading to Beijing, you know, to support these protests. Was your family supportive of you?

What was their reaction to, you know, you participating in these protests? Well, they don't know because I'm my family. They didn't know that I went to Beijing. My family is in Fucho, in Fugent province, down in the south. So I attend a college in Hanzhou, is middle near Shanghai. So I think if my parents know I'm heading to Beijing, they probably were trying to block. But, you know, for young people at a time,

you just need to follow your heart, go to see what was happening in Beijing. But it's a huge, huge lesson I never forget. Because, you know, you see when people united, how much power it can be. And then you also witness the crackdown. You know, I personally, I witnessed the tank rolling on students' heads. You know, you can't believe these and you never forget about these and you understand the

dictatorship that even is of the Communist Party right away. Yeah, it's been really eye-opening to see even, I mean, less, much, much less graphic than someone having their head run over with a tank and just seeing people being carried away, being arrested. There was one image that I saw of someone who was being arrested. he was being carried by, you know, police officers. He was protesting over the weekend. It's really, I mean, it's good that these images are getting out,

that are being able to spread around the globe because people are taking, you know, action. And just earlier this week in Washington, D.C., there was a candlelight vigil for the victims of the apartment fire. And, you know, people were rallying, calling for the end of the CCP. and Xi Jinping's, you know, reign as their leader. So it definitely is, you know, becoming, at least for right now, you know, a global, a global calling. And, you know, over the last few days in response to China's zero COVID policy, as we've been talking about,

there's been these protests. And, you know, what are your thoughts on what we've been seeing now? And how do the two uprisings, you know, what you live through in 1989, compared to what we're seeing today? I think at a time in the 1980s, people definitely were very, very angry and upset about the corruption level. But at a time, nobody even talked about

to totally disintegrated a communist party to call for a step down on the communist party. People still give them hope. People still hope. Someone like Zhao Ziyang, in the Communist Party systems can still have open-minded, can do good things for the people. But now, 33 years later, I think people are totally disappointed

and totally lost any confidence on the Communist Party. So now people are challenging the legitimacy of the Communist Party's ruling. And this is fundamental different. And I think that Chinese people have suffered so tremendously in the last two, three years under the COVID lockdown. So many people lost their job. So many people have very hard to maintain their living standard now. So their anger has been accumulated to an unprecedented level.

So that's why I feel this time is very different. And to me, it's more or less like, it's like in the 1976, when Mao passed away, when Joe Enlai passed away. And so I think China right now is facing a big, very, very important moment that society become very, very unstable. The Communist Party ruling is one of the, at least one of the weakest moment. Even though Xi Jinping has all the power in his hand, but I think he's very, very vulnerable, and he's facing strong challenges inside the party as well. and people will continue protest in a different way.

And I'm very, very impressed that Chinese people now can have so many creative ways to show their protests. And also one thing is very, very different is that now, so three years later, people have the cell phone in their hand. In the 1980s, the Communist Party control all the media. People have no way to express their anger quickly through the Internet. They cannot spread a message widely. So at a time, it will rely on international media to cover it. But now, I think with the cell phone, the message, the brutal image that you just mentioned can be quickly shared worldwide. So I think this is a different level of protest, as a different level of information exchange.

So people can be waken up much faster than before. I remember in the 1989, actually, you know, one of the most difficult things after the crackdown happened is that a Chinese Communist Party using their own propaganda machine to create a different narrative for the student protests. And then on the second half year of the 1989, all the Chinese people were forced to tow the party line to buy the Communist Party story about what happened in the Tiananmen Square. They call it a political turmoil. They mentioned someone want to throw the government. The government say whatever they want, and people have no way to get the information.

And even if I was a direct eye witness of the brutality, when I went back to my hometown and I mentioned to people what I witnessed, many people still doubt because they don't see it. It's not like nowadays. If you see the video, right, if you share the image to people, many people start to see it right away.

At a time, it was very difficult. So now, I think even though the government have very, very complete control of the society through this digital totalitarianism system, but at the same time, people can wake up much faster than before. So I think the power of people will be manifest in different way, and it will be very creative and will be very fast changing in China as well. But at the same time, the Communist Party won't let it go easily.

So I actually think brutal suppression waves is coming, but probably in different form as well. And we saw the news that the Shanghai police is actually checking on many people's cell phones to try to see if they are engaged in the protests in the last weekend. So they have these different digital tools now, but I think it will also further trigger more angers against the Communist Party. Yeah, it's been really interesting, you know, watching these protests and you talked about like different, you know, creative ways that people have been

protesting. And we've seen images of white blank papers, you know, pieces of paper. A few people had them on Monday at the protest. And with all of this pent up anger against the Communist Party and Xi Jinping, is it likely that we see any, you know, major changes in China? If Xi Jinping does potentially give these protesters what they want regarding, you know, like zero COVID policy, you know, easing that up. What does that then say about his leadership? You know, Xi Jinping has a nickname is called the general accelerator, right? He's accelerating the collapse of the Communist Party.

And so I think any leader with a rational mind might single. about to give something to the people to ease the anger, maybe loosen up the lockdown policy somewhat. But I'm kind of doubting Xi Jinping will do that. He's very stubborn one. He can stick to his zero-COVID policies, and he can enforce crack-down policies. There are rumours talking about it. It may put many out of the big city in two weeks' lockdown in order to, to to screen through the people who joined the protest. He may do something like that to further trigger the anger

because he still feel he's in control. But I think in different regions, many, many of the local leadership maybe have totally fed up with this situation. Many of the police may not support the crack-down policy. They may not implement it.

And also, the central government pretty much pushed the problem down to the local level. Central government, in one hand, they're telling we need to stick to zero COVID policy. And the other hand, they're telling them you cannot elevate the level of lockdown. So the local Communist Party government system have a very difficult situation. So they probably want to somehow have a compromise in between. So, It's very difficult for them to really, really following the central government's policy.

So I think it will also further triggering local Communist Party leadership to betray the central government's policies. It will further create more conflict cracking inside the Communist Party system. So I think it will trigger faster change inside the Communist Party. So, more or less, I think for Chinese people, for Chinese students nowadays protest, whether they're inside China or outside China, I think the key is that they need to just express their anger or discontent against the current policy in different ways. It don't have to be very, very, how to say, to do a grand scale, very, very coordinated protest. you don't have to do that. As long as you have a way to show your disagreement, it's an encouragement.

I think the key issue is more Chinese people breaking away the fear that the Communist Party had implemented in people's heart for decades. Through so many political movements, through so many different kinds of persecution, many Chinese people already have that feel against the Communist Party for a long, long time. And now it's a chance to bring it. break away from the fear to show your disobedience against the dictatorship. I think this is the process. For many people, it may take some time.

And now it's just the beginning. And more people can show their disobedience than China will have a bigger change. And from your perspective, what would you like to see happen in terms of the global response to what is happening in China? Like we've talked about there's been protests and, you know, there's been gatherings of people coming out in support of the protesters and their mission in China. But, you know, from President Joe Biden, for example, or other leaders throughout the world, what would you like to see done? Well, I think the leader in the free world need to be more courageous, need to make a very strong statement. to support Chinese people's freedom of expression and the freedom of protest.

Need to send unamigious message to Communist Party to warn them to not take any extreme measure to crack down the protest. I think need to have a great message sent to the Communist Party to tell them, If you do anything extreme, you suffer more consequence, direct consequence. You know, maybe even, for example, I think in the Trump administration, when the consulate in Houston was locked down, it was a huge blow to the Communist Party. So I think international leader can think about some strategy like that. If you continue to crack down the students' protests or its civilians protest, many more countries can shut down more consulates. a communist party is constantly in their countries. So give the message to the Communist Party,

they will be further isolated in China and do more sanctions again, the Communist Party elites. I think it need to be more straightforward as well in maybe some economy sanctions as well. I think it need to be doing for real. And right now, I'm a little bit disappointing that the current Biden administration still pretty much just deliver a lip service.

I don't think that's strong enough. No, Sean, just before we go, I'm not sure how likely it is that this podcast will reach the ears of protesters in China. But if you could share a message with the people on the ground, what would that message be? I would say their protests is historical. It's very inspiring. They need to keep on their great efforts to wake up more Chinese people, to help more Chinese people break away the fear against the Communist Party. And the truth will shine.

And the evil is always trying to hide, try to use all kinds of disguise ways to deceive Chinese people, make Chinese people believe this is so-called COVID policy. It's for pandemic control. No, that's actually totally lie. It's basically a way to establish control in the society, more complete digital totalitarianism against Chinese people. and Chinese people are being treated like animals. And so these are the reality and don't believe any words regarding about using different tactics to do pandemic control.

This is totally lie. They are basically using this way to maintain their power. I think the communist China is in the process of completely being completely collapsed. So I think the Chinese people are doing the right thing at the right historical moment. They just need to continue and have the courage and the perseverance to continue protest. Well, Dr. Sean Lin, thank you so much for joining us today

and giving us some insight into what you experienced back in 1989, as well as what's been going on over the last couple of days in China. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Oh, thank you very much for inviting me. Thank you. And that'll do it for today's episode. Thank you for listening to my interview with Dr. Sean Lynn. We'll be sure to bring you more updates on the unrest in China as it develops.

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