The Daily Signal - It’s ‘the Darkest Day In Israeli History,’ Ex-Envoy Says

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

As the war between Hamas and Israel continues, President Joe Biden is set to visit Israel on Wednesday following an invitation from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Saturday.  “I think it’s important for any American president to show support for, and solidarity with, Israel in its darkest hour. I mean, this is the darkest day in Israeli history,” Nathan Sales, former ambassador-at-large and coordinator for counterterrorism at the State Department, said prior to Biden’s trip being confirmed. “In the 75 years that the state of Israel has existed, we’ve never seen bloodshed and violence like this.” “In fact, it’s the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust,” said Sales, a nonresident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. “Think about that. America needs to stand by our ally, our closest ally in the region and the only democracy in the region.”  Politico reported Sunday that Biden could travel to the war-torn country “as early as this week.”  “I think what I would like to hear from President Biden when he goes to Israel is ‘We’re going to change course on Iran. We are going to not just go after the tentacles of the octopus, the terrorist groups in Lebanon, the terrorist groups in the Gaza Strip,'” Sales said, continuing to cite what he thinks the president should say: “We’re going to go after the head, the masters of this entire strategy. We’re going to hold them accountable as well. We’re going to deprive them of the resources that they’re investing in terror proxies to kill Jews. Oh, and by the way, to kill 30 Americans as well.”Will he actually say that? I’m not going to hold my breath.Sales joins today’s episode of “The Daily Signal Podcast” to discuss how the U.S. can help Israel as the war continues, Iran’s history of supporting Hamas, and his thoughts on Biden’s comments during an interview with CBS that aired on Sunday night. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This wasn't just an attack by Hamas on Israel. It's also an attack on Americans. And that is in keeping with Hamas' history of bloodshed over the years. This is the Daily Signal podcast for Tuesday, October 17th. Samantha Sherris, and that was Ambassador Nathan Sales. Ambassador Sales served as ambassador at large and coordinator for counterterrorism at the State Department and is currently a non-resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. He joins today's show to discuss Hamas' history of terrorism against both U.S. and Israeli citizens, President Joe Biden's potential visit to Israel

this week, and much more. Before we get to our conversation, though, let me tell us. you about another great thing here at the Heritage Foundation. Are you looking for quick conservative policy solutions to current issues from America's outpost here in Washington? Sign up for Heritage's weekly newsletter, The Agenda. In the agenda, you'll get top conservative research, a rundown of important events happening here at Heritage that you can watch online, and hot takes from our experts. Sign up at Heritage.org slash agenda, or at the link in the show notes. Today I have the honor of welcoming Ambassador Nathan Sales to the Daily Signal podcast.

Ambassador Sales served as Ambassador at large and coordinator for counterterrorism at the State Department and is currently a non-resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council. Ambassador Sales, thanks so much for joining us today. It's good to be here. Thanks for having me. Of course. Now, it has been over a week since the terrorist organization Hamas launched an attack against Israel. And fighting has continued. As of this recording, we know 30 American citizens have been

killed. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that over 1,400 Israelis have also been killed in addition to 2,750 Palestinians. Can you first tell us more about Hamas' history of terrorism against both Israeli citizens and American citizens? Well, Sam, the first thing to keep in mind is that this wasn't just an attack by Hamas on Israel. It's also an attack on Americans. And that is in keeping with Hamas' history of bloodshed over the years. Going back to the mid-1990s, Hamas has committed about some, let me think here, I think it's 30 terrorist attacks that have killed more than 75 Americans. Think about that. That is the sort of bloodshed that you would expect from a terrorist group like al-Qaeda and like ISIS. And I think those sorts of numbers are sobering because it's...

emphasizes for American citizens and for American policymakers what's at stake here. Israel has said that its goals in the Gaza war are to completely eradicate Hamas, to prevent it from having the military capabilities to carry out an attack like we saw on the 7th and depriving it of the capabilities to function as a quasi-government. Those are very ambitious goals. They're actually similar to what the United States tried to do after 9-11 when we went into Afghanistan to completely decimate al-Qaeda. And also similar to what we did with respect to the Islamic State in Syria and in Iraq, in the Obama and Trump administrations. What that means is this is a long road ahead of us. Israel's not going to be able to simply push a couple of buttons and make everything okay.

When Israel goes into Gaza, as it's preparing to do now, we have to be prepared for a bloody fight and a long fight. And Israel is going to need America's support throughout it when the critics at the UN and when the critics of Israel in Europe start wagging their fingers. I wanted to also ask you about Iran's involvement in Hamas's attack against Israel. There's been a lot of questions and concerns about what exactly that role was. Similar to the first question, can you walk us through and tell us more about Iran's role, historically speaking, supporting Hamas? Absolutely.

So this is all playing out according to Iran's grand strategy. Their plan for the past years has been to encircle Israel with terrorist proxies that can apply pressure to Israel and threaten its citizens. In the north, in Lebanon, you have Hezbollah, which has received $700 million a year from Iran over the years. It's a staggering amount of money. In the south in Gaza, you've got Hamas. Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups have received about $100 million a year from Iran. And according to Israeli sources, in this year alone, that number spiked up to $350 million just for Hamas.

In Syria, you've got the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and other terrorist proxies that Iran has used against Israel. And so all of this is part of the grand plan of the theocrats in Tehran to delegitimize the Jewish state and ultimately eradicated. They say that Israel has no right to exist. And when they say that and when they put this kind of money behind Israel's enemies, we have to take them seriously. And so, you know, the Biden administration came into office determined to get a nuclear deal with the mullahs. That has not panned out.

And in fact, Iran is stronger today in every measure than it was on January 20th, 2001. They're much richer now. They're exporting far more oil. They are much closer to having a nuclear weapon. Their enrichment of uranium has skyrocketed in the past two and a half years, leaving them at the brink of nuclear breakout. Just this week, the UN arms embargo on Iranian exports of drones and missiles is set to expire. And the United States and our allies in Europe, who have the power to snap those sanctions back into place,

are just going to watch and do nothing. If we're serious about protecting Israel, if we're serious about protecting American citizens in Israel, we have to reconsider our policy of appeasement and accommodation of Iran. Their fingerprints were all over this attack. They're going to do it again unless we stop them. Can you speak more to how the U.S. should be helping Israel during this war? Unfortunately, there's very little signs to show that it's slowing down. So what should the U.S. be doing? Well, the first thing we should do is something that candidly this administration is not going to do. And that is reapply maximum economic pressure on Iran. You know, there's been a lot of talk in the past couple of days about

the $6 billion that the U.S. unfroes as part of the hostage deal over the summer. That's just the tip of the iceberg. The $6 billion is just the tip of the iceberg. The bigger problem here is that since January of 2021, Iran has been able to dramatically increase its oil exports. It has now sold by one estimate $80 billion worth of oil just in the past two and a half years with the lion's share of that exports going to China. So what's happening here is China is spending billions of dollars for Iranian oil that's being used to buy weapons that's being used to kill Israelis and Americans. What we need to do is realize that the past two and a half years of engaging Iran has been folly. It has not stopped their drive towards a nuclear weapon,

and what it has done is empowered them to shed blood across the region on an industrial scale, as we saw on October 7th. The administration is not going to take my advice. Let's be honest. So what else can we do? What we need to do is provide Israel with every form of diplomatic and intelligence and military support we can to make sure that its operation in Gaza is a success. As we discussed, this is not going to be over in a week. It's going to take a long time. Inevitably, Israel's critics are going to say, okay, you've had enough time. Why don't you stand down?

That's when the United States needs to stand up at the UN Security Council, at the corrupt UN Human Rights Commission. and block any efforts to stop Israel from achieving its objectives. We also need to provide them with whatever intelligence we have on the location of hostages, on the location of Hamas cells and leaders in Lebanon as well, not just in Gaza, but in Lebanon, in Syria. We shouldn't allow Hamas to hide in other countries and escape responsibility for the atrocities they've committed. Israel needs to hunt them down, take them off the battlefield, and we should be helping them do that. That doesn't mean American boots on the ground.

We're not going to fight this war for Israel, but we have an enormous amount of intelligence and military expertise that we can share with our closest ally in the region. I do want to talk about the hostage situation that's ongoing, but before we do that, just wanted to bring up an interview that CBS aired on Sunday night with President Biden. Would you support Israeli occupation of Gaza at this point? I think it would be a big mistake. Look, what happened in Gaza, in my view, is Hamas and the extreme elements of Hamas don't represent all the Palestinian people. And I think that it would be a mistake for Israel to occupy Gaza again. But to going in and taking out the extremist, the Hezbollah, is all. up north, but Hamas down south is a necessary requirement.

What are your thoughts on the president's comments? Well, I think the Israelis themselves have been clear that they don't want to reoccupy Gaza. They don't want the responsibility for governing and providing services in Gaza. But it's also clear that the Israelis are not going to allow Hamas to continue to run a terror statelet of the sort that they have run since they took power in Gaza in 2007. Remember, Gaza was an example of the hypothesis that if Israel trades land, it will get peace. In 2005, Israel pulled out of Gaza completely. They removed all the settlements.

They even dug up the graveyards and moved the bodies out of Gaza into Israel proper. And the hypothesis was, well, if the Palestinians say they want land for peace, here's their opportunity to prove it. And what happened two years later was Hamas was elected in a popular election. or what passes for an election in the region, and they stayed in power ever since. Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to govern the Gaza Strip as its own fiefdom, because when Hamas controls territory, that gives it a launching pad, as we have tragically seen, to carry out bloodshed on a hideous scale. So absolutely, Israel doesn't want to occupy Gaza and go back to the pre-2005 era, but neither can it allow Hamas to come.

control the strip. Somebody is going to have to step in and govern Gaza when this is over. I don't know what that looks like. And frankly, nobody is going to know what that looks like because it's going to depend on the manner in which the war plays out and what the end game looks like. But something in between Israel controlling it on the one hand and terrorists controlling it on the other is probably where we're going to end up. Now, just to go back to the hostages that are being held in Gaza, what's your evaluation of how the Biden administration is handling this with regard to the U.S. citizens? Are they doing enough? If not, what else should be done? Yeah, this is a very, very difficult problem. We don't know how many American citizens are being held hostage right now.

What we have heard is that 30 Americans were killed. There were 13 unaccounted for, and those numbers may have changed since I looked at the newspapers this morning. Of those 13, presumably some of them, certainly some of them, are in. captivity in tunnels underneath Gaza City. It's going to be very, very difficult for the United States to identify the locations at which these victims of hostage taking are being held. They're probably being moved around. They're probably not being held together. They're probably in tunnels underground in conditions that are horrific and gut-wrenching. That is to say, at this point, I don't see a military response as being the most effective way to get these hostages out. That's the last resort.

If we have to send in SEAL Team 6, if we have to send in Delta to get these guys, chances are some of them are going to get killed in the crossfire or even worse, Hamas is going to execute the prisoners, as they have already threatened to do. And as they've reportedly done to some other Israeli hostages who are being held there. So I think at this stage, our best hope is for quiet diplomacy. We have, and the Israelis have back channels that we can use to have very clear conversations with Hamas. Here's what's going to happen to you.

Let our people go. Here's the sticks that we're going to use. Here's the carrots we can offer. Those conversations are not easy in the best of circumstances. And I have to say, because of the $6 billion ransom payment that the Biden administration authorized for Iran. I think these Hamas terrorists are looking at the Americans in their terror tunnels and they're seeing dollar signs. They're thinking, all right, the Iranians got $6 billion.

Let's see what we can get. So we've set a harmful precedent that might constrain us in our ability to get these people back now. As of this recording, there's been reports that President Biden could be traveling to Israel this week. Why would this potential visit be significant? and if President Biden does go over there, what does he need to focus on? I think it's important for any American president to show support for and solidarity with Israel in its darkest hour. I mean, this is the darkest day in Israeli history. In the 75 years that the state of Israel has existed, we've never seen bloodshed and violence like this.

In fact, it's the deadliest day for Jews since the Holocaust. Think about that. America needs to stand by our ally, our closest ally in the region and the only democracy in the region. I think what I would like to hear from President Biden when he goes to Israel is we're going to change course on Iran. We're going to not just go after the tentacles of the octopus, the terrorist groups in Lebanon, the terrorist groups in the Gaza Strip. We're going to go after the head. The masters of this entire strategy, we're going to hold them accountable as well. We're going to deprive them of the resources that they are investing in terror proxies to kill Jews.

Oh, and by the way, to kill 30 Americans as well. Will he actually say that? I'm not going to hold my breath. Just before we go, I wanted to bring up that on Wednesday you're set to testify before the House, Homeland Security Committee for a hearing titled an examination of the Iranian regime's threat to homeland security. Can you preview a little bit about what we can expect from you during this year? Well, you know, I don't want to scoop myself, so tune in on Wednesday if you're interested, but it's clear that Iran has long had the American homeland in its crosshairs.

And in my view, we're not doing enough to deter Iran from carrying out assassinations or terrorism here on the homeland. As we speak right now, Iran is actively plotting to assassinate a number of former senior U.S. government officials, including former Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, including. former national security advisor John Bolton, including the Iranian-American human rights activist Masi Al-Linajad. There is no reason for us to simply issue press releases and bring a couple of token criminal prosecutions against the perpetrators. That is not going to deter Iran. Iran responds to clear demonstrations of resolve and strength, and they're not going to stop trying to kill us just because we say pretty please. And the other thing to keep in mind is

Iran's probably Iran's most potent and deadly tool for global terrorism is Hezbollah, the Lamedon-based terrorist group. Since 1997, there have been almost 130 Hezbollah operatives who've been arrested in the United States. And we have to assume that there's others here right now, biding their time, staying under the radar screen, until they receive activation. orders from their masters in Tehran. This is a major problem that really hasn't gotten the attention it deserves. And actually, we don't even know how many Iran-back terrorists might be in the United States because we don't have control of the southern border. In the past couple of years, we've seen a dramatic spike in the number of watchlisted individuals who've been able to make it

into the country. I don't have the exact data at my fingertips, but I can tell you, you know, in 2019, that number was zero. In 2022, I think it was about six. 60 or 70. In 2023, the fiscal year just ended a couple of days ago. In 20203, we were looking at 154 watchlisted individuals who were apprehended coming into the country. Those are just the ones we know about. How many other people were able to make it in the country without being detected? It's a major problem. There's a lot of reasons we need to get control of the border, but the fact that we can't stop terrorists from coming in at the southern border is one of the most important. Well, Ambassador Sales, thank you so much for joining us today.

Just before we go, any final thoughts? No, I think we really cover the waterfront, so thanks for the opportunity to be on. Of course. Thank you so much. My pleasure. And that's going to do it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening to my conversation with Ambassador Nathan Sales. If you haven't had a chance, make sure you subscribe to the Daily Signal, wherever you get your podcast, and help us reach even more listeners by leaving a five-star rating and review.

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