The Daily Signal - Jonathan Karl on “Retribution”: Inside Trump’s Return to Power

Episode Date: November 9, 2025

ABC News Chief Washington Correspondent Jonathan Karl joins The Daily Signal’s Rob Bluey to discuss his highly anticipated and bestselling new book, “Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America.” In this one-on-one interview, Karl reveals behind-the-scenes details from the 2024 campaign trail and his contentious relationship with the commander-in-chief.  Karl has covered Donald Trump for over 30 years and spoke regularly to the president during the 2024 campaign. In “Retribution,” he takes readers inside one of the most extraordinary political comebacks in American history—and what it means for the future of American politics. Karl is the author of four New York Times bestsellers: “Retribution,” “Tired of Winning,” “Betrayal,” and “Front Row at the Trump Show.” He is a Pulitzer Prize finalist and has won multiple journalism awards. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Not that long ago in the Oval Office, about a month ago, he told me you think you're a wonderful person, you're not a wonderful person, you're a terrible reporter, you know it and I know it. But even then, even then, right after he said that, as the cameras are told to leave the Oval Office because the event is over, he motioned to me, I went over to the Resolute Desk, and he said, oh, no, we're okay, we're okay, we're okay. And he, I said to him, I said, that was pretty tough. I mean, with the live cameras going, you're like insult. And he said, no, no, you were tough on me.

You were tough on me. And he starts laughing. ABC News Chief Washington correspondent, Jonathan Carl, is the author of a new bestselling book called Retribution. Donald Trump and the campaign that changed in America. John joins us here at the Daily Signal to talk about the book and his access to President Trump and Hunter Biden. and all of the players who made this such a remarkable campaign over the course of 2024. First of all, John, congratulations on hitting the bestseller book. I'm listening to the audio version of it.

And for all of our daily signal audience who wants some extra special features, I encourage them to buy a copy of the audiobook because you actually have some clips of President Trump and Hunter Biden included. So thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you very much. And yeah, the audiobook is like a whole separate project. It's really like a whole different thing because you actually, you hear some of my interviews. I actually play the audio.

It's, you know, get banning in there as well. And, you know, certainly a lot of Hunter Biden and, and, and President Trump. But, but also, you know, instead of like, if I'm quoting from a speech or from an interview or something, I don't just read it. I play the actual event. And it's, which is a little unusual for audiobooks. And, of course, the part that's read, I read. So, you know, so I'm proud of that one.

Well, that's always the best. best. And then, like I say, when you can actually hear the president speak or Bannon or Hunter, you feel like you're right there on the call with you. So you have said, you know, Donald Trump is somebody who you've known and covered for three decades. And obviously you had great access to him throughout the course of this historic comeback campaign in 2024. You know, I think that that might surprise some of our audience, obviously a conservative audience that they've seen you and the president and spar publicly. So take us behind the scenes. What was it like interacting with him as he went on this campaign? And as you appropriately call on the book, this really motivated by retribution

based on what he had endured over the course of not only the four years he was in office, but the four years that he was waiting to return to the White House. Well, the interesting thing about my relationship with Donald Trump is that it goes back a long, long time. I was a young reporter for the New York. Post, which I believe was his favorite newspaper at the time, if not still, when I first met him, that was in 1994. And so I, you know, I've had a long relationship with him. Even in his, you know, his entry into politics, I did the very first network interview, network television interview with Donald Trump of the 2016 cycle. It was in 2013. So it was two years before he

came down the escalator. And he remembers this well. because, you know, I did this interview. I got a lot of criticism for it. People are like, why are you interviewing Donald Trump? He's never going to run for president. He's just playing a game. He's trying to boost ratings for the apprentice or something. This is a waste of time.

And he remembers that. And I tell you, I mean, almost every time I've, I see him, or every long conversation we have, he brings it up. You did that interview. And, man, you tell you. took heat, but boy, you got big ratings, you know, and he just tells the whole story over and over again. So, but look, he, it's no secret that Trump has also at times been very upset with some of my reporting. And he has publicly, you know, said some really terrible things to me. I mean, recently, not that long ago in the Oval Office, about a month ago, he told me you think you're a

wonderful person. You're not a wonderful person. You're a terrible reporter. You know it and I know it. But even then, even then, right after he said that, as the cameras are told to leave the Oval Office because the event is over, he motioned to me. I went over to the Resolute Desk, and he said, no, we're okay, we're okay, we're okay. And he, I said to him, I said, that was pretty tough. I mean, with the live cameras going, you're like, insult. And he said, no, you were tough on me. You were tough on me. And he starts laughing.

And so, you know, I think even when he's, like, really, really gone out. after me. It doesn't last long. And the conversations were, you know, calling him on his cell phone is actually a new thing. I really only, the first time, I used to call his people, right? You call the secretary or the press secretary. You call somebody. I've been doing that for 30 years if I want to get a hold of Trump. But he's always been responsive. But after Butler, it was, it was, it was right after Butler that I called him for the first time because I wanted to just leave a voicemail message and tell him I was glad that he was okay and that that was a terrible thing that happened. And he called me back. We had a long conversation. And over the course of

the campaign, I started calling him almost every two or three days just to check in and see what was going on. I think one of the things that stood out to me was not only that scene that you describe in the book in Butler and in great detail information that that frankly I didn't know about before. So, you know, the book is certainly worth getting for those details that I don't think many Americans may have picked up on in just the day-to-day reporting. But you also talk about the famous debate between Trump and Biden. And one of the things that as you were talking about your interactions with him there in the Oval Office, striking contrast between the two candidates, not just in terms of their performance on the stage,

but even in the preparation for the debate, and you talk about how Trump went to the walkthrough and knew exactly where the cameras were, knew where to stand. I mean, he's playing for the audience, and you talk about how he was somebody who, you know, even in a wrestling match, knew from his own experience, you know, how to get the crowd on his side. And is he, so you've covered other presidents.

I mean, obviously, how does that make him different from his predecessors in the White House? You know, he has a really good sense for cameras, for the crowd. He really knows how to tap into the energy of whatever room. Even if it's a room with a smaller group of people, he, you know, there is a magnetism to Trump and a connection that he makes with people. And look, Ronald Reagan, who I never got a chance to meet or cover, but Ronald Reagan, you know, famously was a, you know, was it was an actor and, uh, and, and brought a lot of those skills

himself. Uh, uh, Trump's is a little bit different. It's a little, it's a little bit more of a raw connection. It's an instantaneous connection. But, you know, he, I, he is a member, Trump. He is a member of the W.W.E. Hall of Fame. And, and, and, and, and you're right to, you know, I, I, I, I describe that debate in, in, in quite a bit of detail. the behind the scenes, what led up to it and all of that. And when he is introduced, actually, first, if you remember, if you go back and look at it, which I did frame by frame, Biden is introduced first. And he walks out on the stage and he kind of shuffles out and he doesn't really look.

He looks like he's kind of, you know, trying to see who's around. It's an empty room. It's an empty room. It's a CNN studio in Atlanta. And then he finally, like, locks in on the moderators and gives them like a, you know, a week wave. And then, you know, he stands there and he said, but he can barely hear what he says. And then Trump waits to be introduced on the sideline.

And he just, it reminded me of when the, you know, when the wrestler is introduced and the crowd is, you know, and the, and the wrestler knows that he's going to be on the screens before he gets into the ring and wants to win that crowd over because that's going to be a big part of the excitement of the match. You want the crowd on your side. And there's no crowd, but there is a crowd watching on TV. And it was very, very effective. I think, I know I had a sense in real time watching it that this was going to be a disaster for Biden, even before the first question was asked.

Just watching the two walkouts. You know, Bill Clinton, you know, said years ago Americans like strong. They will choose strong and wrong over weak and right. And there was no question which candidate looked strong even before any of the questions were asked or answered. Yeah, no, that's an excellent point. Now, the other thing you talk about in the book, write about in the book, is Trump's enduring these legal challenges. And sitting in that courtroom in New York, for instance, and this is where your title comes from, Retribution. How much of his comeback, maybe everything, you would say, was attributed to what he saw the attacks against him and the lawfare and what, in his eyes, the wrongful prosecution of him on so many different counts and four different jurisdictions and whatnot.

And then, you know, as it pertains to maybe what motivated him, how do you see that now playing out in real time as he governs? well i think it's kind of everything i wrote my the first chapter of the book is called the felon and the frontrunner and i thought it was i mean you really have to we we live through such an extraordinary campaign and events were coming out of so fast you need to go back and really look at the bigger picture of where things were he goes to that courtroom he's on he's put on trial and it is a weak case i mean let's be honest he was convicted. Jury did convict him. But this was, of all the legal challenges, legal problems that he faced, this was like the most insignificant. And yet it was the first and only ultimately to go to

trial. And he's in that dingy, dark, dirty courthouse in lower Manhattan at 100 Center Street. And he has to sit there for six weeks, day in and day out. He cannot leave. He cannot not speak while the court is in session. He has to stand up and to honor the judge who he can't stand. But, you know, and I think a lot of Democrats were like, if this guy's convicted, it's lights out. And frankly, a lot of Republicans thought that too. You know, you know, can he even run if he's convicted?

And are people going to vote for a convicted felon? I think it locked into his victory in a way. I mean, there were other, obviously, obviously other factors. But, you know, it enabled him to portray himself as a victim. And it enabled him, frankly, to cast doubt about the other cases, the special counsel cases, which were more serious. Regardless of whether or not you think, you know, he should have been investigated and indicted and all that, those charges, you know, the classified documents case, the January 6th case, those are much more serious cases. and, you know, Trump's sitting here for weeks on end about how he accounted for payments to keep a porn star from talking to, I mean, I mean, what the, what is this thing?

I mean, it's a weird, it was a weird case. And I think he quite convincingly, you know, made the case against it each and every day when on the way in or on the way out of the courtroom, he would go to the cameras. And that was his campaign stage. And he made it a very effective campaign stage. Oh, he certainly did. I remember those moments well, and you never know what you were going to get when he stepped in front of the cameras at the end of the day. Let me ask you this.

I mean, obviously, this was a big week for Democrats in terms of the election victories in New Jersey and Virginia, California, New York City. Based on your coverage of Trump in the past, do you see him changing at all, his approach to governing in light of this and leading up to the midterm elections, which will be obviously a critical point in the second term? not really um i i i you know i i think that the um you know when he has this back against the wall is not when he suddenly says well maybe i did something wrong i need to go and change strategy it's usually when he goes he fights harder in the direction that he was going that maybe put him against that wall and sometimes that's been effective and sometimes it hasn't um i thought it was interesting on election night when he, you know, he made that comment first in a true social post and then the next morning in front of the cameras where he said the shutdown had hurt

Republicans, which was interesting because, you know, he'd been saying the shutdown was the Democrat's fault and that's what Republicans have been saying. And frankly, in a very literal sense it is, they're the ones voting against the bill to fund the government. But, you know, a lot of people heard that and he thought, well, maybe that means he'll, you know, be eager to make a deal with Democrats to reopen the government. But no, no, no, I don't think that's what it was at all. And then right after that, he's like, well, we've got to get the filibuster gone. We have to eliminate.

So it's more he wants to fight on. But that said, I mean, we're probably, I mean, I'm hearing that we may have some kind of an agreement. And Democrats may be, you know, maybe giving in and maybe getting something in return in terms of a promise of a vote on the health care. issue. But no, I don't think that Trump's going to, I think the lesson he took is that Republicans haven't done a good enough job telling the world how great he's doing as president. I think that's, I think that's what he sees. Well, the other thing that, of course, he mentioned in that

post is that he wasn't on the ballot. Yes. When his name wasn't there, which is, which brings me to my next question, because obviously there's a lot of debate going on right now in the conservative movement and the Republican Party about what the future is post-Trump. I mean, in every, in Evidably, you know, he has a vice president who's going to want to pursue the presidency, but there are other contenders either in the States or maybe even in his cabinet who might also be interested. Without somebody as a big of a personality and individual who seems to transcend a lot of these typical ideological lines that we've come to know in our country, where do you see things going post-Trump? It's such a good question. I think another part of

that question, which I will pose, and maybe you can answer, who's the first Republican that announces that he or she is running for president in 2028? And when does that happen? Because I don't, I mean, what do you think? Well, I mean, probably not J.D. Vance, because I think J.D. Vance would do so in concert with President Trump, but I would imagine after the 2026 midterm elections. But you're right, could be somebody else who in early 2026 wants to get out ahead. And I'd say that if anything, it's probably going to come from somebody who's not necessarily aligned closely with the MAGA movement because they probably will tread carefully based on what they saw happen to Governor Ron DeSantis when he made moves that Trump

didn't particularly appreciate. So, no, it's going to be very fascinating to watch. And of course, you've had people like Steve Bannon even suggest that Trump's going to figure out a way. to have his name on the ballot, which I personally don't think is going to happen, but there's obviously some chatter to that effect. Yeah,

but it gets at the question because, you know, basically whoever is going to be the successor to Trump isn't going to want to get ahead of Trump on that. And it's going to need to wait for a signal from Trump that, okay, now is time to, you know, and maybe he will. Maybe he'll at some point after the midterms, you know, say it's time,

do an apprentice-style thing. And of course, the biggest thing is going to be his endorsement, so he'll bring people in. But I just, I don't think he's going to want to do that for a long time. Because the minute he does that, it's like an acknowledgement that he's a lame duck and that the attention is on somebody else. So I, the future of the Republican Party post-Trump is, is a, is a black box, I think, to anybody. I, I, I don't think you can assume that, that it suddenly becomes J.D. Vance's movement and he inherits all of Trump's support. I don't think. you can assume that at all, or Marco Rubio, or I don't know, who else? Or is it going to be somebody that's a little bit more anti-Trump, but not never Trump?

Is it going to be like a Brian Kemp or is it going to, but I don't think any one of those people will be able to tap into the kind of, you know, enthusiasm and energy that Trump has among the base of the Republican Party. I mean, he kind of right about that when he says, you know, I wasn't on the ballot. And that's, Republicans have generally done crappy when he's not on the ballot. In fact, it's surprised they haven't done well even when he's been on the ballot. And, you know, I mean, it's, you know, so it's, uh, he's a singular person. It's the Trump party, I think, more than the Republican Party at this point.

And there's not much left, as you know, of the old Republican Party. So it'll be another good story. Maybe another book someday down the road, but I'm going to wait a while. Maybe, right. Maybe you'll write that one. Hey, good idea, John. No, one thing that stood out to me, even in the elections that took place this week, were that where Trump made significant gains with certain segments that traditionally supported Democrats,

young people, black Americans, Hispanic Americans, those groups all reverted to their, you know, traditional way that they would vote for Democrats. And so he was able to have a crossover appeal in ways that other Republican politicians haven't, both in the past and present day. Yeah, for sure, for sure. John, as we wrap up here, let me just ask a final question. What's the biggest takeaway that you want readers or listeners to get from retribution? I really want people to see this as a definitive account of the most important election of our lifetime.

I mean, I, you know, look, some people look at me and say, oh, you're biased. And by the way, some people say that on the left that I'm biased towards conservative. and I certainly get from Trump people saying, but I honestly, my goal in this book is I wanted to document for history and also tell a hell of a story because it was a hell of a campaign. You know, what went down? You mentioned Butler. I really go through and give a, you know, almost a minute by minute account of what was happening, those critical moments in Butler, the Biden dropping out.

I really, I think it's by far the most detailed account of what Democrats did to push Biden out and that strange relationship that Kamala Harris had with Barack Obama and with Nancy Pelosi of the transition. So the biggest takeaway is how people look at this and say that was a hell of a campaign. This is a book that tells the story of that campaign and explains how Donald Trump came back to power. Jonathan Carl, thanks for spending time with the Daily Signal. Your book is called A Retribution. Donald Trump and the campaign that changed America encourage our listeners, viewers to check it out

whether you buy the print copy or listen to the audio book with those special features. Thanks for being with us. Great, Rob. I really appreciate it. Great to talk to you.