The Daily Signal - Ken Williams Struggled With Same-Sex Attraction for Years Before Finding Freedom. Now, He Helps Others ‘Journey Out.’

Starting point is 00:00:05 This is the Daily Signal podcast for Tuesday, June 29th. I'm Rachel Del Judas. And I'm Virginia Allen. Ken Williams struggled with unwanted feelings of same-sex attraction for years. When he sought resources to try to walk away from homosexuality, he found none. Now, years later, he has written a book to help others like himself. In the journey out how I followed Jesus away from gay, Ken details his personal story of how the church can love the homosexual community well. Ken is also the co-founder of the change movement and shares how his organization supports those struggling with same-sex attraction. Don't forget, if you're enjoying this podcast, please be sure to leave a review or five-star rating

Starting point is 00:00:52 on Apple Podcasts and encourage others to subscribe. And now onto today's top news. Former President Donald Trump shared harsh words of criticism for former Attorney General Bill Barr on Sunday. criticism was spurred on by the release of an excerpt from an ABC news correspondent Jonathan Carl's upcoming book, Betrayal. The book is set to release this fall and details accounts of those who presumably Trump feels betrayed him. Carl interviewed Barr for the book and the two discussed Trump's claims of election fraud. Carl shared some of their conversation in an Atlantic piece released Sunday. Carl reports Barr telling him that if there was evidence of fraud. I had no motive to suppress it, but my suspicion all the way along was that there was nothing

Starting point is 00:01:49 there. Trump responded to Barr by calling him a disappointment in every sense of the word. The former president added that Bill Barr's weakness helped facilitate the cover-up of the crime of the century, the rigged 2020 presidential election. The Supreme Court said Monday that it will not hear a case appealing a lower court's decision to allow bathroom access for a transgender student. All the justices except for Justice's Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito voted not to take up the appeal to the ruling that allows Gavin Grimm, a transgender student to have access to the boys' bathroom, which Grimm sued the school district in Gloucester County, Virginia for access to in 2015. Gloucester County appealed the decision to the Supreme Court, but the high court's refusal to hear the case means that it will reject similar appeals. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California says he has a plan to crack down on big tech companies. In a letter to House Republicans Sunday, McCarthy said, for the sake of preserving free speech and a free economy,

Starting point is 00:02:51 it's time big tech faces the music. McCarthy's framework to crack down on big tech companies appears to be an alternative plan to a set of bills that are currently circulating in the House. The California lawmaker says his plan would be. focus on the three areas of accountability, transparency, and strengthening antitrust review. McCarthy wants to see reforms made in Section 230, which is a piece of law that keeps social media platforms from being held accountable to what is posted on their websites. Under McCarthy's bill, Section 230 would be changed to limit liability protections and would preclude big tech from discriminating against Americans based on their political affiliations.

Starting point is 00:03:34 The bill will also require the technology companies to make their moderation or censorship practices available to the public on their websites. McCarthy added that the legislation will address antitrust concerns and make it easier for big tech companies to be held accountable for their actions in court. Energy and Commerce Committee ranking member Kathy McMorris Rogers of Washington State and Judiciary Committee ranking member Jim Jordan of Ohio will join McCarthy in writing the legislation. Now stay tuned for my conversation with Ken Williams, author of The Journey Out, How I Followed Jesus Away from Gay. The Heritage Foundation has a new website to combat critical race theory. CRT, as it's known, makes race the centerpiece of all aspects of American life. It categorizes individuals into groups of oppressors and victims. The idea is infiltrating everything from our politics and education to the workplace and even our military.

Starting point is 00:04:33 Heritage has pulled together the resources that you need to identify. identify CRT in your community and the ways to fight it. We also have a legislation tracker so you can see what's happening in your state. Visit heritage.org slash CRT to learn more. I am so pleased to be joined by Ken Williams. Ken is a pastor at Bethel Church in Redding, California and the co-founder of the Change Movement, which is a Christian organization that is based in California and works with people who are seeking to leave the LGBTQ plus lifestyle who are struggling with same-sex attraction. Ken is also the author of the new book, The Journey Out, How I Follow Jesus, Away from Gay. Ken, thank you so much for being here. Oh, such an honor. Thank you, Virginia. So you were on the podcast with us

Starting point is 00:05:20 about two years ago, and you shared a little bit of your own journey, your struggle with same-sex attraction as a young person. You've now written a book telling your story, The Journey Out. So just share with us a little bit of your story just to review as a refresher and what you experienced as a child and as a teen that really led to you, you know, thinking, okay, you know, I'm struggling with these same-sex attractions and then kind of what that journey out was. Sure. Thanks. In my experience, typically the formation of homosexual desires is multifactorial. And so that was the case with me. And, you know, looking back on what happened in my life. That's very clear.

Starting point is 00:06:05 So I was the scrawny guy, so I didn't fit in with the other guys just naturally. You know, boys are trying to exert their power and climb the thing the fastest or knock it over or whatever, and I was smaller. So I had a struggle there. I also believe I was wired, you know, called really to be a pastor from birth. I think God's, you know, gifts and callings are like that. And so I wanted to talk deeply. Well, seven-year-olds don't, you know, boys.

Starting point is 00:06:32 don't want to talk deeply. So I fit better with the girls and just in that demeanor. And also, and maybe most significantly, I was exposed to hardcore gay pornography just while playing with a few other boys in a field. One of the guys opened up a bootbox that was just out there and what I witnessed caused me to lose respect for males because obviously I wouldn't describe what I saw, but it's different than you, it's worse than you would expect. And And really dishonor and degradation is what I witnessed. And so I lost a lot of respect for males at that point. And I was already struggling because they mocked me and I was having trouble keeping up.

Starting point is 00:07:14 In addition to that, then those boys having witnessed that along with me, a couple of them initiated some touching and things like that. They were doing what they saw in those magazines. And so now I'm dealing with shame at a very deep level because I had no intention. I believe I had just recently gotten. So I got saved at eight years old as well. And so I'm in a real dramatic moment in life because I'm in love with Jesus. I really wanted to follow him and please him and all of that. And yet something entered my life I never expected.

Starting point is 00:07:50 And you're just a little kid. You have no ability to process this. No one has ever talked to me about pornography. I didn't even know what that was until it was shown to me. So my life just took a turn at that point. And now I really just pushed masculinity away because it seemed wrong. It didn't seem godly or noble to me. And the problem is I was male.

Starting point is 00:08:12 Yeah. So when you push masculinity away, I pushed me away. Consequently, I was constantly looking for me in another male. And so, you know, there are different expressions of homosexuality or struggle. mine was largely codependent, you know, and so that search for finding me and someone else had gotten sexualized because my first sexualization was at the hands of only males. So the problem is, you know, it's impossible to find me in someone else, you know, and to me that needs to be God revealing who he created me to be.

Starting point is 00:08:50 And so instead of trying to find it really in him, I was trying to find it in these other guys. And so at 17 years old, I'm suicidal because I'm just really empty inside. It felt very lonely. It felt like nobody knew me and really they didn't because I was making sure nobody really knew me. Yeah. Yeah. And you talk in the book about you kind of reached this breaking point where it was like, all right, someone has to know. And you sat down, you kind of wrote out everything that was going on in your heart, in your mind.

Starting point is 00:09:21 And you showed it to your youth pastor. And then his response was, he's like, well, Ken, you're not gay. Yeah. And I was like, okay, that feels good. And at the same time, what do I do though? Yeah. You know, because I'm pretty sure that was pretty clear on those nine pages that that's part of my struggle. So he said, well, we're going to get you, we're going to tell your parents.

Starting point is 00:09:45 And I said, oh, no, no, we're not going to do that. Because this is the 1980s. You don't tell anybody this. I didn't know a single person who was gay. I had never heard a single comment about homosexuality that wasn't dramatic. That wasn't, wow, that's the worst thing. And so no way did I feel safe to share that, even with my parents who I knew loved me. Fortunately, we did it that evening, and they cried with me.

Starting point is 00:10:11 The way I remember it, a couple of hours, we just kind of wept and shared and all that. So it was a wonderful, I mean, my life began at that moment. Wow. I felt like several years ago, the Lord showed me that the only way you'll ever experience unconditional, well, you'll never know unconditional love until you first shared your condition. So many people, particularly in the LGBTQ experience, are trapped in that life for decades because they've never felt a safe place to actually share it all. Yeah. And as we know from scripture, confess your sins one to another that you may be healed. Yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 00:10:49 So I wasn't experiencing unconditional love because nobody knew my condition. Once I shared my condition, I was able to receive the love that my parents had for me that I didn't know that they had to that level. Yeah. So then what was the journey from that point at age 17 to today? You're married. You have kids. So, you know, was it an instant? All right.

Starting point is 00:11:11 You know, from the time you had that conversation, now, you know, the same sex attraction is gone. Or was it a long, long journey? Me. You know, I don't believe it has to always be as long as my journey was. There weren't many resources back then. Yeah. I wrote The Journey Out book, the Journey Out. Me for anybody looking for it, I wrote that to be the book that I couldn't find. Wow. Because I, you know, I didn't tell this part, but I had gone into the Christian bookstore, you know, just before I wrote the letter to my pastor looking for a resource and there were none. So my first moment of having suicidal feelings was when I was walking out of the Christian bookstore. So I wrote the book to be that answer.

Starting point is 00:11:52 It was a journey. And it began with just being hooked up to a counselor. That was the first thing that my parents said. They were like, well, you know, what are you wanting? I said, well, I don't want this. It's just I've prayed a thousand times and I've tried to change the way I feel, but I can't, you know. And so I started seeing a Christian. counselor and I was I was a minor I was 17 years old and I was no longer suicidal after I had shared

Starting point is 00:12:22 with my parents and then had a counselor I could tell absolutely anything to and I wasn't going to be rejected. I was a safe place for me to process and just walked with him for five years weekly. That was the beginning and I just learned about God's grace. I learned about yeah okay you've got you've got some sin you've got some struggle but God loves you Ken I was like Wow, that was just foreign for me. I was really very legalistic in my understanding of God. And so that was very vital. And then really I had an experience where I had had a five-year illness and a friend said, well, Ken, God doesn't want you to be sick. And again, I was like, what? You know, but he said, no, God doesn't want you to be sick. You know, there's healing all throughout the Bible, even physical healing. He laid hands on me, prayed, and I had a real, it's a longer story.

Starting point is 00:13:14 I had a total encounter with God. All of the pain left. And for the first time in five years, I was pain free. And so I no longer had that illness. And that was so dramatic for me that I realized, oh, my goodness, God is good. Like, he didn't want me to be sick. So if that's true, and if God had given directives in Scripture about sexuality, and if he had said that homosexuality is not condoned, it's considered sin,

Starting point is 00:13:41 then he must have a solution for it. Because he's not crazy. He's good. He's not diabolical. So if he says something's wrong, surely he has a solution. And so I went on a journey of finding more of him. Like how much can he be known and what will he offer for me? And, you know, Psalm 103 is my favorite passage of scripture.

Starting point is 00:14:03 It's like, you know, forget not all his benefits, who heals all your diseases, redeems your life from destruction, all these things. And so I went after that. he showed, I mean, you know, it didn't happen overnight, like you said, but it did happen to where, you know, I got, I then went to a ministry school for three years and my, I would say, I experienced the transforming by the renewing of my mind because I realized how many lies I had, I had believed. So just because I had an experience, you know, and I was touched inappropriately and that catalyzed things didn't mean that was who I was, right? That didn't,

Starting point is 00:14:43 That didn't mean that was the deepest and truest version of me. I merely a pathway in my brain was opened up because of what happened to me. And so I was able to just go deep with the Lord and by seeing more of who he was start to find who I was. Yeah, yeah. We are talking with Ken Williams, author of The Journey Out, how I followed Jesus away from Gay. So Ken, share a little bit about now. You co-lead the change movement. you journey with individuals who are really kind of walking through the same thing that you did.

Starting point is 00:15:18 How exactly did that come about to where you said, okay, this is actually my ministry in a way that I want a journey with people who are living this like I did? Yeah. I had been part of the leadership of a men's purity group at my church. So this is starting probably 12 years ago or 13 years ago and found so much fulfillment in that. I've been married to my wife now for 15 years. We have four kids. And so, boy, you know, when God does something in your own life, it just feels really good to help other people who are where you used to be. And so I was able to do that in that ministry and started to just realize, wow, I have passion here.

Starting point is 00:16:00 Wow, I have a sense of destiny when I'm able to, you know, probably every eight weeks or so, I would be the featured speaker that week in that group. And I would just come alive. And I would realize, oh, my goodness, there are so many people out there that don't know what I know and really need that encouragement. So I started there. And then I ended up meeting Elizabeth Wanning another guest on your podcast. And we started comparing notes, another friend of ours as well. And we would just, weekly, we would have coffee and talk about what has God done for us. How did we find this version of ourselves and come out of an LGBTQ-executive?

Starting point is 00:16:40 experience and and started ministering together. And then in 2018, when California tried to pass a therapy ban that would have really shut down, it would have made my book illegal. It would have shut down the help that I got from my therapist. I mean, that was just like a non, there was no way we weren't going to stand up against that bill because that bill would have cost people their lives. There would have been people ending their lives like I almost did, you know, because they couldn't find hope. And it shut down the gospel. You know, it would have made illegal allowing people to walk in the direction that God has called us to walk. And so as we started speaking out against that legislation, it went viral on social media.

Starting point is 00:17:25 And people saw, wow, there are a bunch of people. You know, we had 30 people standing on the Capitol Steps in Sacramento sharing their testimonies and picked up by the news and all that. And so now we have, you know, thousands of people traveling along together in a closed Facebook group, for example. that have the same experience. That's so powerful. And legislatively, where do things kind of stand right now? Obviously, in society, we're seeing an increase of just conversations about LGBTQ and gender identity. What are kind of some of the pieces of legislation that you all are watching?

Starting point is 00:17:58 And I know you've been in D.C. this week talking with legislatures. What are you focused on? Very much on the Equality Act and fairness for all. Those are just really, they have sweet names, but when you look deeper than that, they're very harmful, very controlling. You know, it's really the government stepping in and controlling people's sexuality. And I understand that the effort is to provide protections for LGBTQ-identified people. And I'm all in favor of them being treated with the dignity that every person deserves. You know, nobody should be discriminated against or treated unfairly.

Starting point is 00:18:41 I think we're seeing in culture right now that actually an LGBTQ-identified person is on the verge here of maybe having even more liberties than some of the rest of us. I mean, certainly more than I do, to be quite frank. We are cast as villains quite often because we're countercultural. And that obviously is not our heart. But, you know, I'm unable to accept a worldview that says that if someone, has experienced confusion of their sexuality or has had a moment of homosexual desire that that's who they are because I know that that's not true. And I know the fulfillment that I and so many of my friends have experienced by, as I

Starting point is 00:19:21 talk about in the book, surrendering wholeheartedly, you know, wholesale, you know, to what God has called us to live what the confines are for our sexuality and then finding the peace that came with that. The joy, the feeling of connection and bonding with God that I wasn't able to experience when I still had my own plan for my sexuality in my back pocket that I could dip into if I was wanting to medicate myself. So the Equality Act Fairness for All are, I mean, they restrict rights of conscience, could potentially take away some freedoms of speech. They definitely interfere with my practice of my religion. And it's literally, it's literally, the government stepping in and say these are the options for your sexuality if you have had this

Starting point is 00:20:09 experience forces doctors to, it would create a scenario where doctors could be forced to violate their own conscience in giving treatment to people that, let's say, we're requesting an attempt to change their sex and would disallow them from being able to say, no, I don't believe, you know, I do no harm. I can't offer you this. So that's one of the major ones. There are ones that are also focused on the transgender situation that would be very harmful. It's time for Christians to stand up lovingly and say no, you know, to put the right people into office, to vote, to go show up at their school boards and say, well, you know what, if you're going to be implemented, implementing queer theory into the curriculum, if you're going to do comprehensive sex ed that's going to suggest to my elementary school students, maybe even in kindergarten, that maybe this boy is a girl, then this is time for us to not only push back against that with the school board, but it's time to stand up and say, okay, I want my medical doctor to be able to come in and talk about what does biology say about human sexuality.

Starting point is 00:21:26 You know, I want an opportunity to talk about what it means to be a confident and healthy man of, a man and a confident and healthy female, you know, those types of things. That's what's on my heart today. It's like it's going to take pushing back with legislation, but also just a grassroots, no, I'm going to make a stand for Christian morality. Yeah. And as you're doing that, as you're sharing your story, as you're seeing others share their story through the change movement, do you feel like you're being heard?

Starting point is 00:21:56 Do you feel like, you know, lawmakers are like, okay, yeah, I'm hearing what you're saying. I'm paying attention. Yeah, do you feel a positive momentum forward. I do. I do. We have a long way to go. I'll be candid. We do have a long way to go.

Starting point is 00:22:11 There are a lot of voices out there, and major media is shutting down our voices. When I post something on Facebook that is anything related to this issue, I have four likes. And, you know, two years ago, I had 200. You know, so I'm being censored and my friends as well are books canceled off of, fortunately my book is not canceled. It's out there on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and things, but most of my friend's books are. So, you know, there are forces that we have to reckon with, but I am very encouraged that Washington has begun to listen to us.

Starting point is 00:22:47 We're able to start being known by some different legislative offices and different groups in D.C. and then in different states that are starting to realize, wow, if we don't kind of stand up now and if we don't start looking out for the welfare of people rather than just towing the line of woke culture, we're going to lose a lot and there's going to be a lot of people left in the wake that are damaged. Yeah, yeah. Well, the book, The Journey Out, as you mentioned, it's available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Share a little bit just about who this book is for.

Starting point is 00:23:24 This book, I wrote it up in the beginning of dedicating it. This book is for those that want a way out. You know, I'm not trying to, this book is, you buy it if you want it. If I'm not speaking to the people that are content with an LGBTQ life. But there's so many that are not fulfilled with that. It doesn't scratch the itch. And so for those that it's like, oh, this feels impossible, I don't know, you know, I feel disconnected from God over it.

Starting point is 00:23:51 I'm telling you, it does not have to be that way. You know, I can't promise exactly what your future looks like, but I know that God says that, I mean, he does exceedingly abundantly above all we can ask or imagine. That's his words, not mine. And he, you know, all things are possible to them that believe is in the Bible. And so, you know, when we come to the Lord and lay down everything, like I talk about in the surrender chapter, it's amazing what he can do with our lives and how he can show us a version of ourselves, like the real, the deepest version of ourselves that we've lived however many decades and we're completely unaware of when we really meet him in the places like I point out in the book where he's wanting to meet with us. Yeah. Well, I love both that you share your story in the book, but then

Starting point is 00:24:40 I feel like you just offer some really practical tools, you know, talking about vulnerability, talking about surrender, that encouragement, that change is possible. Why did you decide to kind of craft craft it the way that you did? Well, I felt like I needed that. Yeah. I didn't. That's where I was always looking for. But like, oh, well, you just got to follow the Lord.

Starting point is 00:24:59 You just got to hear God. I'm like, well, how do I do all that? You know, I really needed kind of to be handheld a bit in my discipleship. And so I broke it down in the way that I thankfully eventually was able to experience it. And, you know, I put practical things in there like, you know, how do you remove triggers from your life that are unnecessary because it's amazing how the enemy can convince us that we are something like he's he's a liar right i mean we can see from the from the garden of eden in the very beginning that he was the enemy was whispering into adam and eve's ears and and lying to them

Starting point is 00:25:39 about you know who they were and what he was and what was to be their future or what they needed and all that and so you know we need practicals about how we can understand what the lying voice is and how we can kind of help ourselves, you know. How do we remove the things from our lives that we're not ready to navigate right now? And how do we, probably more importantly, how do we add into our daily lives the things that are going to be necessary? Because so many, again, so many people try to do this on their own. They're not, they don't invite their community into it because they haven't felt safe to.

Starting point is 00:26:18 but then, I mean, you know, we get picked off, but the enemy's strategy so often is to isolate us. And then it's like, you know, we're not very strong alone. But boy, when we're when we have a community that we can build around ourselves intentionally, you know, there are a lot of great people out there that God has that can be a support to us. And so I put that kind of practical wisdom into the book. I love that. So good. And for those who are thinking, I really want to get connected with the change movement, how can they do that?

Starting point is 00:26:48 Yeah. You can follow along with us on Instagram. Just look for changed movement. Or on Facebook, we have a public page by that name as well. And then also a private group. And you can request to join that group as well. Great. Awesome. Well, again, for all of our listeners, the book is The Journey Out, How I Follow Jesus Away from Gay. You can get it at Barnes & Noble, Amazon. Ken, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate you from the show. Thanks, Virginia. And that'll do it for today's episode. Thanks for listening to The Daily Signal Podcast. You can find The Daily Signal Podcast on Google Play, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and IHeartRadio. Please be sure to leave us to review and a five-star ring on Apple Podcasts and encourage others to subscribe. Thanks again for listening and we'll be back with you all tomorrow.

Starting point is 00:27:37 The Daily Signal podcast is brought to you by more than half a million members of the Heritage Foundation. It is executive produced by Kate Trinko and Rachel Del Judas, sound design by Lauren Evans, Mark and John Pop. For more information, visitdailysignal.com.

The Daily Signal - Ken Williams Struggled With Same-Sex Attraction for Years Before Finding Freedom. Now, He Helps Others ‘Journey Out.’

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