The Daily Signal - Los Angeles Prosecutors Decry Disturbing Results of DA George Gascon's Policies

Episode Date: April 11, 2022

LOS ANGELES—What is a rogue prosecutor? Why is Los Angeles County District Attorney George Gascon considered one of the most progressive prosecutors in America? How have his new policies led to a crime increase in Los Angeles?  Gascon has “really completely abandoned his responsibility to the public,” says Kathy Cady, a former Los Angeles prosecutor who now works as a victim’s rights attorney.  The ways in which Gascon is changing L.A's prosecutorial system is “negatively impacting communities of color” and “murder victims' families,” Cady says.  Cady joins “The Daily Signal Podcast” along with Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney Eric Siddall to explain how progressive, or rogue, prosecutors are affecting LA crime rates and crime victims.  Also on today’s show, we ready your letters to the editor and share a good news story about a business owner who is using his love of coffee to fight for the rights of the unborn.  Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, April 11th. I'm Doug Blair. And I'm Virginia Allen. The job of a prosecutor is to uphold justice. But what happens to the city when the defense attorney is no longer prosecuting criminals to the full extent of the law? According to Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney Eric Siddell and former prosecutor Kathleen Katie, consequences are dire. Virginia recently traveled to Los Angeles for a Heritage Foundation event that featured speakers discussing the issue of a rise in rogue prosecutors.

While there, she had the chance to sit down with Eric and Kathleen and ask them about the progressive prosecutor movement. I'm excited to share that conversation with you all here on the show today. Also on today's show, we read your letters to the editor and share a good news story to kick off our week. Before we get to the show, we want to tell you all about the most popular resource on the Heritage Foundation website, The Guide to the Constitution. More than 100 scholars have contributed to create a unique line-by-line analysis of all

Constitution. The guide is intended to provide a brief but accurate explanation of each clause of the Constitution as envisioned by the framers and is applied in contemporary law. There has truly never been a more important time in our nation's history to have an understanding of our founding document. So if you want to learn more about the Constitution, go ahead and visit heritage.org or you can simply search for Heritage Guide to the Constitution. Now stay tuned for Virginia's conversation with Eric Siddall and Kathleen Katie. I am so pleased to be joined today by Los Angeles County Deputy District Attorney and Vice President of the Los Angeles Association of Deputy District Attorneys. Eric Seidel. Eric, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

So before we get too deep into talking about progressive prosecutors and Los Angeles District Attorney, George Gascon, can you first just explain what exactly a prosecutor? is, what do they do, what's the responsibility? And also, more specifically, what is the job of the district attorney? Okay, so a prosecutor basically enforces the laws of the state or the nation, depending on if you're a federal prosecutor or a state prosecutor. So, for example, I'm a state prosecutor. So my job is to enforce the laws of California. But we also have certain types of ethical duties as prosecutors, very different from other types of lawyers. our duty is to first do justice.

It is to do justice in an ethical way. So we are supposed to follow the law. We're supposed to be ethical. We're supposed to, if there's some type of evidence that shows that the defendant is not guilty, we are supposed to turn over that evidence immediately to the defense lawyer. Our fight is really to make sure that the system works, that the right people are held accountable and that we hold people accountable in a legal and ethical manner. Excellent. Thank you so much for explaining that. So then when we talk about progressive

prosecutors, or some call them rogue prosecutors, when we use that term, what exactly does that mean? Well, I think the term progressive prosecutor has somewhat been bastardized. You know, My former boss, Jackie Lacey, I considered her to be a progressive prosecutor because she took into consideration to other things. Like, for example, mental health was a big initiative that she did when she was the district attorney of Los Angeles. However, there's this new brand of prosecutors, and really what they're doing is they're engaged in a social experiment to see whether, you know, they come here with an ideology. And their ideology is really that prisons are. always bad, no matter what, that our legal system should be completely overturned. And I don't, I'm not trying to sound like I'm, you know, I'm being reactionary when I say that. I mean,

when George Gascon first announced that he wanted to be the district attorney of Los Angeles, he actually said he wanted to turn the whole system upside out. So really what they're doing is they're engaged in a massive social experiment, except they never have to pay the price for their experiments. Other people do. And when you, you know, speaking of George Gascon and the idea of a large-scale experiment, so Gascon took office in 2020. Explain what you mean by a large-scale experiment. Like, how would you describe the way that Gascon is leading in sort of this methodology that he has?

Well, when he first took office in December of 2020, he basically brought in these orders. He calls him directives. They're basically orders about how he wants our prosecutors to handle cases. What was interesting about when he wrote, when these orders came out, it was very clear that they were written not by a prosecutor, not even in. formed by a prosecutor. They were written by defense lawyers and people who have an agenda to basically decriminalize certain crimes. So he eliminated a lot of misdemeanor crime, but also people who don't believe that prisons should exist. And therefore, one of the things he did was he started, he created these, these arbitrary numbers saying that

After 15 years, everyone's sentence should be reexamined, and he created, he also banned prosecutors from using certain types of conduct enhancements. And conduct enhancements are basically a way to be able to punish certain crimes differently because the conduct of the criminal is different. For example, if a criminal injures someone during a crime and creates great bodily injury to that person, that person should be treated differently from the criminal who doesn't, right? That's logic. And the penal code reflects that logic, those values. George Gasconi immediately wanted to eliminate conduct enhancements. He also wanted to eliminate enhancements that dealt directly with a person's prior criminal record. So if you're a career criminal, you should be treated differently from the first-time offender. And again, the penal code in California reflects that

value system. So he wanted to get rid of that as well. So basically, he wanted to get rid of every single tool that we have to deal with the most severe criminals and the most career-oriented criminals. In other words, career criminals and dangerous criminals. He got rid of all those tools to deal with those two specific groups. Why? In the name of what? I think you would have to ask him why he did what he did. It would be a pure speculation on my part. I, you know, there is some rhetoric that he thinks or that he hopes that the system will become more racially equitable because of that. But all it really does, this type of program, that he's implementing is it makes sure that the most violent offenders and career criminals

are not appropriately punished and held accountable. So then how does that work out practically in society? Has crime increased in Los Angeles since Gascon took office? So there has been a general crime change or trend in California and in Los Angeles, and there has been an uptick in crime. I think it would be misleading at this point to blame him on the huge uptick, for example, in homicides. My issue more is that I do not believe that he has a plan to deal with the trend in crime. And, you know, crime is one of those things that once it gets embedded in a neighborhood, it's very difficult to take out.

And we did a remarkable job as a society since 1994 for about 20 years, we brought, you know, we brought extremely low crime rates. And the primary beneficiary of these lower crime rates were marginalized communities. So in Los Angeles, it would be communities like Watts, you know, Compton areas. I actually spent most of my career in the Compton-Watts. area. So I'm very familiar with what happened. And, you know, I remember one of the, there was a father whose son was murdered. And the father was a gang member. He was kind of a retired gang member. And his son was marginally a gang member. And he was, his son was killed by a guy from their same gang. And I think it was one of the most movie moments I remember after we convicted his son.

murder, he came up to me and he said, you know, I have been through this courthouse many, many times, but it's great to see justice happen. And we were able to really bring peace to neighborhoods that were at war with themselves for decades. And there was this incredible carnage that I think people forget about in the seven. 70s and the 80s and the early 90s, young men were dying at an alarming rate. And one of the great successes that we were able to have because of our fight and crime is that these young men were living. And they were living long lives. And as a result, those communities were radically changing. They became economically, you know, they were improving economically. Their schools were improving.

You know, one of the things that people, I think, sometimes forget is that a lot of city schools, especially urban schools, actually had a huge increase in test scores because of our investment in the community, our decreasing crime. All these different factors really started making these places livable. And unfortunately, what we have been experiencing over the past couple of years is a return back to the, the era of chaos and the era where that peace was, was not there. And violence doesn't just impact the immediate victim. It does not just impact the perpetrator of the violence, but it really affects the entire community. It makes a community unlivable. It will even decrease test scores for students there because when you live in a place with violence, when you live in a place where there's lots of gunshots, adrenaline levels are so high in those communities because

they're trying to survive. And when you have high adrenaline, you don't do well in tests. And so I think that one of the things that's so unfortunate about these, you know, this new wave of like experimenting with a criminal justice system is that really the effects and the costs are not borne out by the people who are the social experimenters. They're born out by the people who live in communities who are already disadvantaged. Eric, thank you so much. Stay tuned because up next we're going to dive a little deeper into the realities of progressive or rogue prosecutors with lawsuits.

Angeles Victims Rights Attorney and retired prosecutor Kathy Katie. Kathy Katie joins us now. She is the former LA prosecutor and is now a victim's rights attorney in LA. She provides pro bono representation to crime victims and assist them with asserting their rights in criminal and juvenile justice cases. Thank you so much for being here. Well, thank you for having me and for covering this really important topic. I'm, I'm glad to be included. Thank you. You worked as a prosecutor for over 30 years. You've really seen this whole system for years and years and years. Talk a little bit about some of the changes that you have seen personally from before Gascon was the district attorney to now him being the district attorney. So I worked under a number of prosecutors. I was, I was,

a DA under Steve Cooley for 12 years and for Jackie Lacey for eight. And when I retired, Jackie was still the DA. And I'm definitely a fan of Jackie Lacey. I think she was an amazing district attorney. I will say that over my career in the office, you know, there was kind of a move. I would agree with Eric that there was a move. Jackie was progressive and she was moving towards, you know, mental health diversion. There were other ways that we were looking at, you know, trying to make things better, right? That's what you always want to do when you're in a system. You want to look at what's working, what's not working, and then try to make things better. So I would say that during my career in the office, I saw that over and over again, and it was, you know, it was the best career ever. I loved

being a prosecutor, and I left getting up and going to work every day to know that I was there to do the right thing. So I know you have personally obviously prosecuted so, so many cases over your long career. Have you personally been a part of any cases where you feel like the victims you were representing didn't get that justice that they deserved or that they needed to have closure? You're talking about when I was a prosecutor? Well, I'm sure. Any prosecutor who's been with the office for a long time certainly has, you know, handled cases and or done jury trials

that did not turn out the way that they had hoped and that they thought the evidence, you know, would suggest that it would turn out that way. And I'm not alone in that. I tried about 90 jury trials and when I was in the office felony jury trials. And I certainly had some cases where the jury saw the evidence differently. And, you know, victims, I think, felt very sad about that.

What I would say is different now is that when the justice system is working, you as a prosecutor or, you know, even as a victim's rights attorney, could talk to the victim and say, look, we tried everything we could. And this is what happened. And I'm sorry, but that, you know, this is how it worked. Or sometimes in cases, you know, the evidence, there'd be problems with the evidence. and you would talk to the victims and you'd say, look, there are real issues with the evidence in this case, and we need to offer a plea bargain to something, right? And victims might be disappointed, but I think, you know, they're willing to listen. And if you have a reason as to why you're doing things, they can understand that. They may not be happy with the result, but I think they generally can

understand what was going on. The difference between then and now is that victims will say things, you know, when they're being told, okay, well, we have to dismiss this allegation, this gun allegation, this gang allegation. And the questions, of course, were why? And prosecutors, of course, were left to say because of a policy. And that is what has been so different, right? Because victims, if you were, if you, similarly now, we're looking at a case and said, you know what, we have to dismiss the gun allegation because there's problems in the evidence, there's this issue, there's that issue, and so that's the reason we have to do it. I think victims would be able to understand that. But when the issue is, well, actually, the only reason we're dismissing it is because we have

this newly elected prosecutor, and he has a policy, not a law, that is requiring us to dismiss it. Victims, that's when they feel completely abandoned because they recognize that the law still allows that a case be handled in a certain way. But when a person who's come in and has been elected and has sworn to a uphold the law is really not upholding the law and is undercutting the case for reasons that don't make any sense, that's when victims, I think, feel abandoned. If you would talk about some of those policies that Gascon has put in place, that he has

changed where you do have situations like that, where you're having to throw out gun charges or things like that, what's shifted? So to talk about a couple cases, sure. So one of the ones that I would talk about is his youth justice policy. So the law allows that when you have a 16 or 17-year-old who commits a really horrific crime, that they can be charged in criminal court. And there's a process where you do that and it's called filing a transfer motion. So the only way you can get it to criminal court is the district attorney's office has to file this transfer motion. Well, so there were apparently 77 cases where there was a transfer motion that was filed when Gaskon came in. And he ordered that all of those transfer motions be withdrawn. So I have represented well over 20 murder victims families where the person who murdered their loved one was under 18. And so to say to them, well, the case is no longer going to go to criminal court.

You know, the person who killed your loved one is going to stay in juvenile court. And what that means is that they will only stay in custody for, you know, a handful of years. They definitely will be released by the time they're 25, if not before, is very definitely. devastating to crime victims. So just as a couple of examples, I represent a family where a man who was almost 18, one month shy of 18, he murdered two sisters, one who was 16 and one who was 27. He executed them both, and then he set the apartment where they were in on fire to try to cover up his crime. And you might imagine that for the family who lost those two precious young women, finding out that the reason that the person who murdered their loved one was perhaps not going to go to criminal court was based on a policy was very devastating.

Another example to amazing young men, Alfredo and Jose, who were both gunned downed by gang members. And one of them was just starting his career with NASA and the other one was about to be a first-time father. and they were both gunned down by gang members who were out hunting, meaning they were out just looking for people to shoot and murder. And so two gang members who were 16 and 17-year-old, because of the blanket policy, were not put up to criminal court and state and juvenile court. So for those families, it's devastating. It's just absolutely devastating.

Another example that I would give is that victims, mostly murder, murder victims' families before Gascon, when their murderer was going to be coming up for parole, the person who murdered their loved one was coming up for parole, the district attorney's office would send a prosecutor to the parole hearing. And that happens throughout the state in California, but not in Los Angeles, not after Gascon took office. So he took office, I think, on December 7th or 8th of 2020, and victims were called that day to be told, you know, the parole hearing that you have to go to tomorrow for the person who murders your loved one, however many years ago. The one that I've been telling you, I'll be coming to with you. I'll be there. I can't go.

You're going to have to do it on your own tomorrow. And so throughout the last year, there have been a number of us pro bono attorneys who've been representing victims at these parole hearings. And again, you know, it's based on a policy. And he won't send anyone to represent the victims. He now will not allow victims to actually get information about the person who's in custody to find out like how they've been doing and whether to expect that they'll be paroled or not paroled. So victims are going in totally blind without having anyone there to assist them. He's really completely abandoned his responsibility to the public, but especially to these murder victims' families.

So I've had an opportunity to assist victims through some of those parole hearings as well as, you know, a number of other people with whom I work do that same work. But it's been just devastating to crime victims. Well, you know, you hear these stories and you hear you talk, and it just feels a little bit unbelievable, I guess, that, you know, someone could be watching this played out and not see that there's some issues or some problems kind of in the methodology.

And, you know, I think people on both sides of the aisle agree, you know, changes need to be made to the criminal justice system. There should be reforms in areas. And, you know, that is something that Gascon has been very gung-ho about is, you know, we need reforms, we need changes, we need to rethink the criminal justice system, we need to end mass incarceration. But the way he's going about it, I think, is giving a lot of people like yourself pause. Why do you think he's kind of forging ahead right now when people like yourself who have so much experience in the way? the field of prosecution are publicly saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, this isn't working? Well, he certainly had it his fingertips when he came in many, many experienced prosecutors

who had years of knowledge and expertise in any number of fields, the ones that I've just talked about, juvenile justice as well as, you know, parole, but gangs, you know, all kinds of other areas as well. And he, foolishly, would not actually listen to them. He claimed that, of course, he wanted to listen to what prosecutors had to say, but he clearly, over his last, you know, the last 14 months, has not listened to what any experienced prosecutors have had to say. They've been telling him since day one that his policies are foolhardy and will result in people being harmed, communities being harmed, public safety being impacted, and he doesn't care. He seems to continue to go to the handful of people that he handpicked from the public defender's office to come over to give him

guidance. And clearly the policies that were written that he sticks to were written by these people when they were still public defenders. So prosecutors, unfortunately, in the office right now, and, you know, certainly at the very beginning, felt as the hope. if they didn't do what Gascon wanted, the people who would be turning them in, so to speak, would be public defenders. So it was almost as though the prosecutors going into court felt like they were having to, you know, work for the public defender's office or that they would get in trouble and, you know, be tattled on, so to speak. You know, for victims who have been telling him since day one, and I personally have told him on numerous occasions, both on Zoom calls as well as through emails, that he is continued. to really negatively impact and devastate crime victims. Again, I've represented over 100 murder victims' families

over the last year and a few months. And it's been very clear, made clear to him by myself, as well as a number of other people, that what he is doing is negatively impacting communities of color and that especially murder victims' families are devastated. And for reasons that I cannot begin to explain, he does not care. Well, and sadly, the situation of these progressive prosecutors in George Gascon, it's not limited to Los Angeles. We know that this is happening in cities all over America.

So we certainly encourage our listeners to follow the work of Zach Smith and Colle Stimson at the Heritage Foundation that are covering rogue prosecutors all over the U.S. in great detail. But Kathy, Katie, thank you for your time. We really appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Conservative women. Conservative feminists. It's true.

We do. I'm Virginia Allen, and every Thursday morning on problematic women, Lauren Evans and I sort through the news to bring you stories that are of particular interest to conservative leaning or problematic women. That is women whose views and opinions are often excluded or mocked by those on the so-called feminist left. We talk about everything from pop culture to politics and policy. Plus, we bring you an exclusive interview with a problematic lawmaker or conservative activists every second and fourth Tuesday of the month. Search for problematic women wherever you get your podcasts.

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If six-year-old children are capable of making a decision as complex as a medical procedure involving surgery and lifelong courses of hormone therapy, then why not allow them to vote? Why not allow them to choose whether they shall drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, or drive a car? Why not allow them to decide on their sex partners, get married, or join the military? The answer is obvious. They're not old enough to have the experience to make wise choices and their bodies and minds are not fully developed, meaning the way they feel now may change significantly as they grow up. up. So those advocating that children should be able to choose their gender as if they can actually do that, as that is determined by their DNA, are advocating child abuse. And in response to Victor Davis Hansen's commentary, history should be our guide in Ukraine. Shira Levine of Minneapolis, Minnesota, writes,

the Ukrainian people fighting Russia have shown determination to save their country from Russia. They will, with the right support, be successful. The Ukrainian fighters have had had numerous successes in their fight against Russia, it was heartening to see an image of a Ukrainian farmer on his John Deere tractor towing a Russian tank. Your letter could be featured on next week's show. So send an email over to Letters at DailySignal.com. Virginia Allen here, I want to tell you all about a great way you can stay in the know on all the news the Daily Signal covers. Social media. The Daily Signal has an active presence on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

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