The Daily Signal - New Athletic Brand by Jennifer Sey Affirms Biological Difference Between Men and Women

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

Athletic clothing brands hold Women’s History Month promotional campaigns every March and claim to support women’s and girls sports, but haven’t spoken out against men competing as women—until now. “None of them is weighing in and taking a stand to protect female athletes and female sports and spaces from males entering into those spaces,” says Jennifer Sey, the founder of XX-XY Athletics. As a former elite gymnast and the 1986 USA Gymnastics national champion, Sey knows the value athletics can play in the lives of women—and the danger posed by men being allowed to enter female competitions. Sey launched XX-XY Athletics to protect women’s sports and female-only spaces. Sey joins the podcast to share her own journey and struggles as an elite gymnast, the launch of XX-XY Athletics, and her 2022 book “Levi’s Unbuttoned: The Woke Mob Took My Job but Gave Me My Voice.” Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the Daily Signal podcast for Thursday, May 2nd. I'm Virginia Allen. Jennifer Say has made a habit of speaking out about controversial issues. As a former elite gymnast, she wrote a book called Chocked Up that exposes the abuse and practices of USA gymnastics. And as a professional working as an executive for Levi, she faced backlash for advocating for schools to reopen during the COVID-19 pandemic. Ultimately, she ended up leaving Levi because she says she felt it was more important to speak out on behalf of kids who needed an education. Out of that, she wrote the book, Levi's Unbuttoned. The Woke Mob took my job, but gave me my voice. Well, now she's taken on the women's sports issue, and she is speaking out in defense of women's sports and has founded the clothing brand XXXY Athletics. That brand affirms that women are women and men are men. And yes, there are biological differences between them. I had the chance to sit down with Jennifer Say on the Problematic Woman podcast.

Problematic Woman co-host, Kristen I-Cammer, and I interviewed Jennifer Say about her story and about this new athletic clothing brand. And I'm really excited that today we are sharing that conversation from Problematic Women with you here on the Daily Signal podcast. So stay tuned after this for our conversation with Jennifer Say. For over 35 years, the Heritage Foundation Job Bank has been helping conservatives at all professional levels find employment in key positions in Washington, D.C. and across the country. We can help you connect with positions in the administration on Capitol Hill, in public policy organizations, and in the private sector. To learn more about the Heritage Foundation Job Bank, go to Heritage.

heritage.org slash job dash bank. Well, Jennifer Say is a bit of a legend, I would say. She's a former gymnast. She used to work for Levi. She's the author of multiple books, including her latest Levi's Unbuttoned, The Woke Mob, Took My Job, That Gave Me My Voice. And she is the founder and CEO of XXXY Athletics and Athletic Ware Company, standing up for women's only spaces and biology.

Jennifer, we have a lot to talk about. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to the conversation. Well, I figured with so much to talk about, why not just start all the way at the beginning? Where are you from? I was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Okay.

I grew up in and around Philadelphia, sometimes South Jersey, which is like a suburb of Philadelphia. And I started gymnastics when I was little, like 1974, 1975, right around then, right after Title IX. passed. Okay, big time. Yeah. I mean, it was a big time. I think, obviously, I didn't know it when I was five years old, but before that, I mean, Jim started popping up all around the country. There were more opportunities for little girls like me who were very active and busy, you know, up until that point, there really weren't that many opportunities for girls. There's a gazillion more now. Every sport, your son can play, your daughter can play too. If your daughter wants to play ice hockey, she can do it. Back in the 70s, there weren't that many options still. And gymnastics was my choice. And then in

1976, Nottie Komenich won the Olympics. And she was only 14. And so for little girls around the world, I think not just in the United States, we related to her. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, I was six or seven. And you see someone who's also a little girl. I mean, she was a little girl. And she just won our hearts and all I wanted to do is gymnastics. And gymnastics, I mean, for kids, for a little, it's the most fun sport in the world, honestly. It's so cool. You see the little kids flying around and there's that big foam pit, I remember, but. Yeah, we didn't have those yet in the 70s, so this came in the 80s.

But what do you, what was your favorite part about gymnastics or did you have a signature move or routine? Well, my favorite part when I was really little was just the flying. It is like flying. People look and they, oh. It's like flying. It is. It is until it's not. It gets very difficult. I, you know, as I developed and became a strong competitor, national team member, balance beam was my best event. I was very consistent. I never fell. And that's a real asset, as you might imagine, on beam. And, you know, despite the fact that when

you watch it on TV, you don't see many falls, people do fall all the time, you know. So I really liked beam and my sort of signature was a style. I was graceful and flexible. I was not a powerhouse. You know, I was not of the Simone Biles ilk. I was of the Nostia Lukan who won the 2008 Olympics, you know, graceful. I struggled with some of the more power necessary skills. Well, we know that it's an amazing sport. It also has some problems. And you experienced some of those and you talk about those in your book, Chalked Up. What was the journey like for you when you kind of began to realize, wait a second, some things are happening within the world of gymnastics that are not okay.

Yeah. I definitely didn't realize it while I was doing the sport. Okay. Because it was drilled into us that this was just tough coaching, the emotional, the physical abuse, you know, what anyone would call emotional and physical abuse as an outside observer. it's a closed-off little world. It's kept that way on purpose. And it is completely normalized the emotional and physical abuse. I trained on broken bones. A doctor came to the gym every six weeks and gave me shots of cortisone. I was a minor. There was no parental approval. We were weighed in twice daily. Our weight was announced on the loudspeaker. If you gained a quarter pound, you were called a fat pig and you were assigned an extra hour of conditioning on top of a seven. an hour workout. So to me, people say, well, the line is fuzzy. I don't know. I see your mouth

you're wide open. To me, that's not fuzzy. That's emotional and physical abuse. Yeah. We were, food was taken from us. You know, when we traveled for competitions, they would search our bags for food. They wouldn't let us order food in restaurants. I had a yogurt snatched out of my hand because that was too fattening after, you know, my first day of competition. So this is the kind of thing we were dealing with. I didn't realize it because like I said, it was totally normalized. And the best, quote unquote, best coaches in the country coached this way, the Corollies being probably the most famous example. But there were others.

My coaches, the Strausses, another man named Don Peters, who also was a sexual predator. And he was the national team coach in the 80s. So they set the standard. Everybody else coached accordingly. Fell in line. So the thinking was if you want to be the best, if you want to have any shot at going to the Olympics, you shut up and just stick with the program. Yep.

Wow. But the coaches don't think there's anything wrong with it either. No one thinks there's anything wrong with it. I'm going back to 1984. It's only just now I think that people are starting to, you know, question that methodology and that style of coaching. You know, it's often said that the Corollies brought it here from Romania. But I will attest to the fact that it was here before.

They just weren't as good at it as the Curlis. You know, the cruelly's coached this way. They were incredibly cruel. Dominique Mocciano has written about this in her book and spoken about it quite eloquently. And they did produce not just American champions, but, you know, world champions. So then it became even more solidified as the way to coach. Okay. So you, when did you decide I'm going to write the book, Chalked Up, and I'm just going to tell all?

You know, it's so interesting. I didn't, it wasn't that kind of a process. I was about 38, you know, two decades out from the sport, and I continued to really be haunted by it. You know, I had these terrible nightmares. I had anxiety. I was a very functional person. I had two children. I was a vice president, I think, at Levi's already, you know, fairly successful friends.

Like, I was a normal person. I wasn't like rocking in the corner. But I was very aware that I had self-esteem. issues, you know, despite my successes, I felt like I was a failure and a loser. And I just started to interrogate the issues myself and really think about it. And I came to understand that it was this training environment that was causing almost like a PTSD for me. You know, I'd wake up in a cold sweat and the night anxiety dreams that I had to get weighed in or that I had a competition and I wasn't ready. And so I sat down really just to try to make sense of it for myself. And I did promise myself I would be as

honest as I could. I wasn't a writer. I wasn't sure it would get published. But I wrote it and it took the form of a book, a memoir, you know, not a journal, long form journal entry. So I had a few friends read it and they were like, this is a book. You could sell this. And so then I had to kind of cross that Rubicon. You know, I had to find an Asian. So I don't know. And by the time I sold it, I didn't even think about how potentially controversial some of those things were. But the thing is, is I was a 38-year-old while I was 40 by the time it was published. I didn't have any connection to the sport. I wasn't a judge. I wasn't a coach. My kids didn't do the sport. So I didn't really care what they thought of me anymore. Yeah. Just very honest. Do you, so as a former athlete as well, and I'm only, you know,

a couple years, maybe a decade at this point, I'm not counting anymore, out of it. But I feel the same way where it's almost, you know, the sport is your childhood trauma in some sense. What sport? Soccer. So different, different, and in a different time. But you've just launched this amazing athletic brand. I'm so, so excited, X, X, X, X, Y, Athletics.

Do you see any of what you learned as an athlete during your athletic career and then after Do you see any of that influencing what you're creating now for not just athletes, but just for anyone who wants to move their bodies? Yeah. Oh, there's a lot of questions in there. You know, I want to say having, you know, written this book and spoken out about abuse in the sport, I retain a lot of love for the sport as well. I retain a lot of love and respect for children participating in sports and little girls in particular. I think it's a tremendous opportunity despite where my experience went a little wrong. You know, girls that participate in sports are more likely to graduate from high school. They get better grades.

They're less likely to become pregnant in high school. Like there's all these amazing things. And when sports are done right, our girls get to enjoy that. And so, you know, creating this brand X, X, X, Y, Athletics is really, I feel like the culmination of everything I've ever done in my life. As a child athlete, as a corporate executive that loves building brands and loves making amazing product, but also as a person who has not once but twice spoken inconvenient truths that upset folks quite a bit. But I kept going because I thought it was the right thing to do. So, you know, standing up, I looked around at all the athletic brands.

They all claim to stand up for women and champion women. They all do these, you know, Women's History Month campaigns. but none of them is weighing in and taking a stand to protect female athletes and female sports and spaces from males entering into those spaces, which I think puts sex-based categories and sex-based rights at risk. I think it's really important. I enjoyed the benefits of Title IX. I want my daughter to be able to enjoy the same. Yeah. What are the concerns you see when you look at what's happening with the transgender movement, with individual?

who say, actually, I'm a girl. Right. They're a boy. And now they're entering track, swimming. What are the concerns that you have? Well, Title IX guaranteed investment and protection of girls and women's sports within a broader, you know, initiative to guarantee sex-based rights within the education system. There's a reason girls and women's sports are separate. Male and female bodies are different.

Male bodies are stronger and faster. That is not a debatable fact, despite what gets printed today in quote-unquote credible news sources. I mean, every human being knows this. I don't need to be a doctor to know this. So, you know, people will argue, well, it's fringe, it's not that many people. What's the difference? Just be nice. Well, there's 600 instances of males, male-bodied athletes, taking opportunities from girls and women.

And that's just now. 600, that's not small. Yeah. That's not a small amount. And the thing that makes me really nervous, scared, terrified is the denial of reality. We need to live in material reality. And ideology is clouding these decisions. And there's a lie that underpins all of this.

The lie being told is there's no difference between male and female bodies. If we carry that lie through to its conclusion, what happens is a decision gets made that there doesn't need to be sex-based categories. So my fear is women's sports disappears altogether. It's not about the 600 opportunities. It's not about whatever the number is of trans athletes competing in women's. It's about that lie that is central to it, which will ultimately lead us. to just, you know, disappearing sex-based categories in sports. So to me, it's the big and the small.

You know, I will not further a lie. And I think it's really dangerous when we do that, when we don't live in material reality anymore. Well, and luckily, you're not doing this alone. You've picked some really amazing people. Can you tell us a little bit more about the thought process and some of the ambassadors and people you've chosen to work with? Yeah.

I think the face of this movement has really been Riley Gaines. The collegiate swimmer who attended University of Kentucky and in 2002 competed against Leah Thomas, the trans athlete from University of Pennsylvania and tied and was told, and this is the most egregious part of the story in my mind, that she needed to stand down and let Leah accept the trophy. what? And, you know, in the moment, Riley did as she was told. And I think what she thought, and she's told me this directly, that at some point, you know, cooler heads would prevail, adults would step in. I know 22 is an adult or however old she was at the time, 20,

but she was still a student. And I think she thought sensible people would step in and say, wait, wait, we can't do this. And she realized not long after that that was not going to happen. and she was going to need to do it. And so I think it's really heroic what she's done. And she's faced incredible blowback, but she stood strong. And I think she's a great advocate and representative for female athletes. And so I knew without a question we needed Riley. But we also have Paula Scanlan, who is a little lesser known, but I think is incredibly

courageous and admirable. She was a swimmer on the University of Pennsylvania team with. Leah Thomas and was subjected to sharing a locker room and with a male. And she was very uncomfortable. She was a victim of sexual assault as a young teen. And she went to the university and said, I'm not comfortable with this. And they told her, seek help. And they told her, if you speak out about this, you'll never get a job.

I mean, essentially levying threats. Yeah. And you're a young person. I mean, like I said, I was 38 before I sat down and decided to call out USA Gymnastics. These are young women in their early 20s. I just think they're both so brave. And I think the point Paula makes is incredibly important that we deserve privacy and a sense of safety in our own spaces. And she was told to sit down and be quiet.

Your needs come second. And I, as a woman and a feminist, which some of your listeners may not like that term, I've always been proud to wear it. I believe in equality for us. I believe equal pay, equal rights. And part of, I think, what is necessary for us to move safely through the world is to have certain spaces where we have privacy and safety. And that's not just locker rooms. That's women's shelters. That's prisons.

Women deserve that safety and privacy. Yeah. And that is a fact and a truth that used to not be controversial. Everyone used to be on board with that. But we're living in this cultural moment where all of a sudden that is controversial. And I think it can be really easy for us to forget how much art, music, fashion influences the culture. So is your hope that X, X, X, X, Y, athletics will actually be a part of a cultural movement where we can return back to the facts of

biology. Yeah. Well, I hope it encourages and inspires courage because 70% of Americans agree with us that women's sports and spaces should be protected, but they're too afraid because ideology has taken hold and, you know, they're afraid of being smeared as a bigot and a transphobe. And I tell people who whisper to me, well, this is crazy. This can't go on. I'm thinking I might say something. I say, be prepared. You will be called those names. Yeah. I don't sugarcoat it, but you need to do it because we need to live in truth and reality. And if we do it together, it's not as scary. But yes, as I thought about what I was going to do next in my life and I thought about what I'm good at and what I love to do, I love building brands that influence culture. And unfortunately, I'm not even going to say

conservatives or the right, anyone not on the far left has relinquished this role of culture in informing public opinion. Anyone not on the far left has attempted to address it through policy, government, academia. But there's this whole world of culture out there, driven by art and music and yes, brands. And the left, far left, activist left, wins there. And we can't cede that ground. And so if I can make a brand that's cool with beautiful product, with elevated marketing, it sort of normalizes speaking up or it can.

And that's my hope. Also, I hope to make fantastic product that people let's wear. Do you have a favorite product item in the line? Well, my favorites are coming. So we launched, it's only been, it's just under a month ago, and it's just cotton basics right now. So fleece, really, really high quality fleece, sweatshirts, joggers, t-shirts, t-shirts, t-shirts with phrases, graphic teas, socks and caps and things like that. But we have performance product coming in just a couple weeks. And by that, I mean leggings, the stuff you'd wear to work out.

Leggings, bike shorts, fabrics that are moisture wicking for men and women. And so the legging is my favorite. It's really soft. It's the softest legging I've ever worn. It's really flattering. We, my designer and I, my designer's name is Krista, we're both obsessed with the best fabrics, the best hand, as they call it, the best fit, the most flattering fit. I mean, I learned from the best at Levi's best fitting jeans, in my opinion, in the world. And so, you know, I brought that same obsession.

with fit and fabric to this endeavor. Yeah. I do before we let you go, I want to take a minute and ask you just to share a little bit about your new books. Your new book is Levi's Unbuttoned. The Woke Mob took my job, but gave me my voice. What is your mission with this book? My mission with the book is sort of the same as it is with the brand, so maybe that's my life's mission, which is to inspire people to stand up and say true things.

it's a really scary and dangerous world to me that we could all be cowed into silence around actual facts things that as you mentioned we could have said three minutes ago that were true but we're so afraid of being dragged by a loud and bullying minority that we stay quiet so this is really this book is an exhortation to speak up

so powerful I love it I love it I'm certainly excited to try some of, especially the leggings, huge fan of leggings. So it's super excited. Can you tell us how to buy the merch though? Sure. The easiest way to remember is to go to the truthfits.com. Ooh, I love that.

That's so good. We created it. It's sort of like a vanity URL to redirect you to XX, X, Y, Athletics. But that's the easiest way to remember. The truthfits.com. Although we just opened social shopping, too. So you can also buy on Instagram. Oh, awesome.

Amazing. You can buy on Instagram and Facebook. So if you follow us on any socials, which you should, XX, underscore XY Athletics, you can buy there too. Yeah, I love it. And your website is just the coolest thing ever. Oh, thanks. I feel empowered when I go on though. Awesome.

You know, I think, look, we did a lot of the, there's a whole thing with the parallel economy now, freedom economy, and there's all these brands popping up and, you know, more power to them. A lot of them feel like second class brands. I don't want to malign any of my fellow entrepreneurs, but my goal is to make something that feels like a world-class brand in terms of the product and the marketing that surrounds it. So it makes me happy that you said you feel empowered. Oh, yeah. Well, Jennifer, thank you on so many fronts. But thank you for the time that you have given us today in the conversation. We're excited to wear your clothing.

Awesome. I hope you check it out. Don't wait for the leggings. Go now. Yeah, yeah. Go now. With that, that's going to do it for today's episode. Thanks so much for being with us here on the Daily Signal podcast.

Make sure to check out some of the clothing from XXXY Athletics. They have great water bottles, t-shirts, sweatshirts. You can find it all on their website and also on social media. Thanks again for being with us today. Make sure to take a minute to subscribe to the Daily Signal so you never miss out on our new shows. And if you would, leave us a five-star rating and review. We'll see you right back here around 5.

for our top news edition. The Daily Signal podcast is brought to you by more than half a million members of the Heritage Foundation. Executive producers are Rob Lewy and Kate Trinco. Producers are Virginia Allen and Samantha Asheris. Sound designed by Lauren Evans, Mark Geinney, and John Pop. To learn more, please visit DailySignal.com.