‘Punch in the Gut,’ Afghanistan Veteran Says About Seeing Taliban Takeover
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00:15It's hard to imagine how this withdrawal could have been done in a worse fashion than the way that President Biden did it.And so that's the big takeaway here is that it didn't have to happen this way.This is the Daily Signal podcast for Monday, August 21st.I'm Samantha Sherris.And that was Jerry Dunleavy, co-author of the new book, Kabul, the untold story of Biden's fiasco, and the American Warriors who fought to the end.Jerry, alongside his co-author and Afghanistan veteran James Hassan, joined today's episode of the Daily Signal podcast to discuss their new book,the number one takeaway they want people to have after reading their book,what they found to be the most shocking part about the fall of Afghanistan through their research for their book and much more.
01:11Before we get to our conversation, I want to tell you a little bit more about another podcast here at the Heritage Foundation.How do you take America back?It starts with ideas, ideas we take on offense to reclaim America.That's why I can't recommend the Kevin Roberts show highly enough.It's a deep dive on critical issues that plague our nation.plus conversations with high-profile guests from across the movement.It's a roadmap on how we can protect our nation from bad ideas and get it back on track.You can find the Kevin Roberts Show wherever you get your podcasts or go to heritage.org slash podcasts.
01:51Jerry Dunleavy and James Hassan are joining today's episode of the Daily Signal podcast.Jerry is an investigator for the House Foreign Affairs Committee,specifically investigating the Afghanistan withdrawal,and James is an attorney and Afghanistan veteran who served as an army captain.Thanks so much for joining us.It's great to be here.Thanks for having us.So I wanted to also mention that you are both the authors of the book,
02:22Kabul, the untold story of Biden's fiasco, and the American Warriors who fought to the end,which was just released on August 15th.Tell us a little bit more about your book and why you wanted to write it.Yeah. So our book is, I think, a pretty damning expose on the Biden administration's disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. And, you know, the main conclusion from our book, and we conducted hundreds of interviews, reviewed tens of thousands of pages of documents during the course of this. And, you know, our conclusion is that questions get raised about President Biden's age, his fitness, whether he's controlling everything.everything that's going on in the White House. And often I think some of those questions can belegitimate. But in this instance, this was President Joe Biden's decision. And this decision wasa disaster. It ended with many hundreds, well over 1,000 Americans left behind, tens of thousandsof Afghan allies left behind. And 13 Americans and 200 Afghans killed and dozens of Americans
03:33injured in a terrorist attack by ISIS K that our book demonstrates in a variety of ways wasultimately preventable.And, you know, we, James and I teamed up to write Kabul because it was important that thisstory be told.It's important that the stories of those 13 service members be told, that the stories of thethousands of service members who are on the ground.at Kabul Airport in impossible circumstances having to rely because of Biden's terrible decisionson the Taliban to provide security outside the airport.
04:15It's important to tell those stories and it's also important that there is some accountabilityhere because there has been none.No one has been held accountable.No one's been fired.No one's been demoted.There's been no accountability.President Biden doesn't want there to be any accountability, but we think that our bookcan provide some accountability for this.
04:33disaster. Absolutely. And James, I wanted to ask you, as I mentioned, you served in Afghanistanas an Army captain. First of all, thank you for your service. And second of all, what was it likefor you to see the Taliban takeover that we saw two years ago having served there? Yeah, I can sayunequivocally, it was a punch in the gut. And I know for at least all the other Afghan veteransthat I've spoken to, you know, it was a similar punch in the gut for them as well.And especially then seeing the, you know, the administration repeatedly say that the Talibanare now our partners, quote unquote, that they were being, quote, business-like and professional.When, of course, this is the same Taliban that we just spent 20 years fighting, you know,
05:29I lost, you know, people I know, over there, you know, people I know passed away over there,and a lot of other people in my circumstances who served there, you know, had the same kind of experience.And that's a, it's a very difficult thing to reconcile. And, you know, writing this book was an absolute honor.But it was also, you know, it was difficult also to do in part.just to see that be absolutely whitewashed.And I think the most difficult part about it was that it was all so preventable, as Jerry mentioned, in a variety of ways.Can you speak more about some of the ways that it could have been prevented, what you've discovered throughout your research?Sure.
06:20I think the original sin was abandoning Bogram Air Base, and I think that's been discussed quite a lot.And there are plenty of reasons for that.You know, number one, that it was, you know, it is highly defensible.It had all of the abilities to conduct an evacuation, multiple runways, you know,and all the enabling assets that you would need to be able to conduct an evacuation of this magnitudeversus a single strip airfield in the middle of dense urban population center.And as we lay out in Kabul, the decision to abandon Bagram and rely wholly on Hamid Karzai International Airport was a political decision because President Biden wanted under a thousand troops there, basically almost commensurate with what you would have in any other country where we have an embassy where we have diplomatic security.and you can't hold Bagram Airfield with 600 troops, which was on the ground at the time.
07:31But there's one other way just with Bagram in particular where this whole thing could have been prevented.And that is that the suicide bomber who eventually made his way to Abbey Gate,a man named Abdul Rahman Aligari,identity has been confirmed by the Intelligence Committee,but the Biden administration has never once said his name.This individual was in custody at a prison called Parwan Prison at Bogram Airfield.If we had not abandoned Bogram, on August 26th, he would still be behind bars versus wearing a suicide vest.And one thing to add to that is that, you know, the very first thing that the Taliban did when they took over Bagram, which we never should have abandoned.
08:22for the reasons that James just explained.But the very first thing that the Taliban did when they took over Bagram was to free all of the prisoners at that prison, Parwan prison on Bagram Airfield.And that prison was filled with not just dozens of Al-Qaeda fighters and thousands of Taliban fighters,but filled with something like 2,000 ISIS-K fighters as well.And it's interesting because President Joe Biden continuedto say, look, the Taliban and ISIS K, they are mortal enemies. He was saying this throughoutAugust 2021 to kind of reassure the American people that, you know, it's somehow a good ideato try to rely on the Taliban to provide security at Kabul airport because, you know, the Taliban
09:11have a vested interest in stopping ISIS K from hitting us because the Taliban and ISIS K don'tlike each other. And that's true. The Taliban and ISIS K don't like each other. They,They do fight each other, but they hate us more.And there's a long history in Afghanistan of the Taliban,specifically the Hakani element of the Taliban,helping ISIS-K carry out and conduct attacks in Afghanistan,targeting the former Afghan government, targeting American troops.And the place where that sort of coordination or collusion
09:47between the Taliban and ISIS-K,the place where that took place most often was,in Kabul itself. And so, you know, relying on the Taliban was terrible for many reasons.And they showed that it was going, the Taliban showed us why it was going to be a terrible ideaall the way back on August 15th when they freed all those ISIS K prisoners,replenished ISIS K as a terrorist organization, and freed the guy who then made his way toAbbey Gate and killed those 13 Americans.I wanted to also ask you about, you know, throughout your research and the different
10:22interviews that you were conducting, the most shocking thing that you learned. I know there was a tonof media coverage as this was all unfolding two years ago, but through your research for the book,what did you find to be the most shocking part about the fall of Afghanistan?Well, I'll take this, and I'm sure that James has some to add as well. The most shocking thing to mewere the stories that we learned from the U.S. service members, the Marines and the other troopswho are on the ground at Abbeyeh about what?it was like for them there and what the Taliban was doing. These stories, these massive crowds ofpeople, desperate crowds, obviously desperate to get out of a Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.
11:07You had people being trampled to death in the crowds. You had babies being suffocated to deathin the crowds. You had people who were so desperate to get their kids or their babies out that theywould, you know, just try to hand them over to Marines. Sometimes they would try to toss their kids ortoss their babies over the wall and over the razor wire to get them through. And sometimes the kidswould land on razor wire and die. You had desperate Afghans who, you know, didn't qualify to getout asking Marines to just kill them. Like, please, we can't go back to the Taliban.They would grab the barrels of the Marines weapons and try and pull them up their forehead and say,just kill me here because it's going to be better than what the Taliban is going to do to me.
11:59And to give you a sense of what the Taliban was doing, you know, Joe Biden and his administrationand other people on the ground in generals were saying that the Taliban was businesslike,the Taliban was professional, they were helping us.Look, as we detail in Kabul, the Taliban.Taliban was turning Americans away from the gate, was blocking Americans from getting through,was doing everything that it could oftentimes to block our Afghan allies from getting through.Americans were beaten by the Taliban.Afghan allies and Afghan civilians were beaten by the Taliban,
12:39and Afghans were being killed by the Taliban, executed by the Taliban,in view of the Marines guarding the gate.And these Marines, because of the rules of engagement that were imposed, in large part because of this terrible situation that Joe Biden had put these troops in, the rules of engagement did not allow them to take action against the Taliban to stop that brutality.So that just gives you a sense of what these Marines were dealing with.And I'll just add, though, despite all of this, despite the position that these troops were put in because of President Joe Biden and his bad.decision-making. Within the incredible insane strictures that these troops had and these Marineshad, they performed admirably. They rescued thousands of Americans. They rescued thousands of ourAfghan allies, pulling them out of these desperate crowds, getting them through and getting them
13:41onto planes. But unfortunately, because of President Joe Biden, tons of Americans and tons ofAfghan allies were left behind and tens of thousands of those Afghan allies are still stuck underTaliban rule and there are also, you know, right now as we speak, Americans who are being heldhostage by the Taliban. Do you know how many Americans are still in Afghanistan? It's a good question.And the Biden administration has misled and lied about this from the start. So when the withdrawalwas completed and final troops left at the end of August 2021. The Biden administration was tryingto say, oh, there's just a very small number of Americans left behind. And by the way, even leavinga small number of Americans left behind is a dereliction of duty and a broken promise. Like,
14:36let's just make that very clear. But on top of it, it was not true that it was just a smallnumber of Americans left behind. I mean, we've been able to confirm that there were many hundreds,well over a thousand Americans left behind.When the administration was saying at the time, you know, it's at most 100.And then they would come back over and say, oh, well, we rescued 150 more.So now there's just around 100 left.And they would keep playing that game over and over.Right.
15:05And Secretary Anthony Blinken just this week admitted that since the final U.S. troops leftat the end of August 2021, 900 Americans have had to flee the country since then.And I need to point out as well.So that just shows that the Biden administration was lying to begin with.I need to point out that a lot of these ongoing efforts to get Americans out and to get our Afghan allies out,these are still being done by some of the very same outside private veteran-led groupswho had to step in to get Americans and Afghan allies out during the chaotic evacuation as well,because the State Department wasn't prepared then, and it still isn't prepared now to do its basic duty of getting Americans out
15:59and getting the Afghans that we made promises to out of the country.And just to add to that, we detail in Kabul about some of the efforts that were made by privatethese private groups to get people out of the country and how at times they tried to coordinatewith the State Department and the State Department was MIA and so they did it on their own.And in certain circumstances, including rescues of Afghan allies as well, the administrationwould then try and take credit after the fact and pretend that it was through their efforts.And so there's really kind of this whole other layer of these heroes.there's no other way to describe them, who emptied their 401ks to stand up operations to keep the promises that the administration had broken.
16:54Absolutely. One thing I wanted to ask you guys about, I know you just had a piece out for the spectator about the role that COVID-19 protocol played in the withdrawal efforts.Tell us a little bit more about this.Sure, I can handle that. It started.you know, back in kind of just throughout the entire process. And it definitely affected theMarines and soldiers who were redeploying into Afghanistan on day's notice. But it was presentthroughout. And I can give you an example of both. So the embassy actually went into lockdown.The U.S. Embassy in Kabul went into lockdown in June. Over June,2021, two months before the country fell because of some COVID cases.
17:48And they shut down all visa processing.They shut down all, basically almost all services that an embassy would provide.And so there are stories of Afghan SIV holders, people were interpreters who had served alongsideof the U.S. for years, even decades, who were there, they scheduled to show up for finalapproval to leave the country and had their their appointments canceled because the embassy locked down.And then once the embassy reopened, it was rescheduled for, you know, dates like September 18th,which by September 18th, there was no longer an embassy.And, you know, some of those individuals are still stuck in Afghanistan today.
18:33But in terms, on an operational level, the COVID-19 Vax mandate that, you know,the Biden administration put in place also deprived some of those reinforcing units of key personnelor even made it very difficult for them to plan for even conduct basic planning before they went in.And two examples of that phenomenon would be, we spoke with a lot of members of the 82nd Airborne,and across several different platoons, they didn't even know who they were taking and who they were leaving behind.within 24 hours out of leaving,and they had to reshuffle their manpowerthree to four times within 24 hours
19:17to try and place leaders in different positionsbecause they didn't know who was coming and who was going.And for one of the Marine squads that we spoke to,in 2-1, the Marine Battalion thatsuffered all those horrendous casualties at Abbey Gate,they they they this squad in particular um was deprived of their squad leader and both of their teamleaders so there are three senior leaders uh who were not allowed to deploy alongside of thembecause they were not vaccinated um and they're you know it extends across the board to senior
19:56intelligence analysts even a surgeon um it it's really kind of an untalked about aspect of thiswhole thing and we detail all that in Kabul I wanted to umshift a little bit and talk a little bit more about the airport bombing that killed 13 U.S.service members, over 150 Afghan civilians.We're coming up on the two-year anniversary of that tragedy as well, August 26th.I know you talked to many of the families for this book, and I wanted to just give you the chanceto talk a little bit more about what those conversations were like with the families.Yeah, well, I had the privilege and the honor to talk to a number of the families of the Gold Star families of these 13 service members while we were writing the book.
20:47And I also currently have the privilege to speak with them in my current role helping investigate all of this for the House Foreign Affairs Committee.and I'll just add the disclaimer that, you know, I did the book in my personal capacity before I joined the committee.But, you know, in these conversations with the families, look, they want answers, they want accountability.I think that they've been deprived of a lot of answers, and they've certainly been deprived of any accountability whatsoever.In terms of the stories that they tell, I mean, they all have sort of a very similar story related to their interactions with President Joe Biden.Obviously, we've all seen the images of President Biden at the dignified transfer ceremony at Dover,where the caskets for the service members were being brought in, and President Biden kept checking his watch,kept checking his watch, as if he had somewhere better to be.
21:50You know, at least that was the impression that it gave on TV, and it's certainly the impression that it gave to the Gold Star families as well.a lot of the families also tell a similar story about their personal interaction with himthat he didn't seem to know the name or the names of their individual, you know, family memberswho'd lost their lives, and that he immediately would just bring up his own son, Bo Biden.And the families were pretty put off by that because obviously President Biden's son,Bo Biden. His death was obviously tragic. He died of brain cancer in 2015, but he had he had servedin Iraq many, many years before. He didn't die on the battlefield. And, you know, he, him,President Biden trying to compare his situation to the situation of his families hit them hard for
22:49many reasons, including the fact that, look, many of them believe that their sons and daughterslost their lives because of the bad decisions and incompetence of President Biden himself.And so, you know, the Gold Star families want answers. They want the truth. And I encourageeveryone to actually keep an eye out for this. A lot of the Gold Star families are going to becoming to Capitol Hill, to the nation's capital to tell their stories at a roundtable on August 29th.So just a few days after the anniversary of the bombing,Chairman McCall of the House Foreign Affairs Committeeand other members of Congress are going to be there
23:33so that the American people can hear the stories of these Gold Star families.And if I can add one thing to that,is that, as we mentioned in Kabul,Joe Biden still has never said the names of the 13 who were killed.Not on Memorial Day, not on the anniversary of the bombing, never.And that to them is a particular kind of knife to the heart, I think.Definitely.When we talk about accountability, you were talking earlier about how no one's been held accountable.
24:06What would accountability look like to you and who specifically would you like to see be held accountable?At a minimum, it would start with Secretary Blinken and Secretary Austin resigning or, you know, being fired.But accountability, of course, to that degree, requires the Biden administration to admit.admit that it made a mistake. And it doesn't want to do that. It still describes, just bafflingly,describes this as a quote-unquote success. Yeah, I mean, I think that he nailed it. Look,the State Department especially, and Anthony Blinken especially, they botched this. They didn't,they didn't plan. They didn't have a plan about how to get Americans out and to get all of ourAfghan allies out. And it showed.
24:54And but at the end of the day, it's not just Secretary Blinken and Secretary Austin, but it's President Joe Biden himself.And, you know, it was his decision on August 14th in his speech where he decided to do a essentially conditionless withdrawal, a conditionless surrender.It turned out to be to the Taliban.It was his decision to set September 11th, 2021, bafflingly as the date.for the withdrawal to be completed by the 20th anniversary of 9-11.Now, this is crazy for many reasons.I guess it was obviously political.He wanted some sort of political victory out of this,
25:39but what he ended up getting was on the 20th anniversary of 9-11.He ended up getting the Taliban being back in charge of Afghanistan after 20 years.But picking 9-11 as a withdrawal date was political.political, and it certainly wasn't strategic. It was the opposite of strategic because Septemberis the middle of Afghanistan's fighting season. So, you know, the way that the terrain and theweather is in Afghanistan during the spring and summer, that is when there's lots of fighting.But the late fall in the winter, so much snow, mountainous terrain, it's hard for the Taliban fightersto move between Pakistan and Afghanistan. It's tough just generally to do fighting. But we know
26:23that the Taliban every year is always at its strongest and most capable on the battlefieldduring the spring and the summer. And that's the exact moment that President Joe Biden decidedto pull U.S. troops. And not just pull U.S. troops, but pull U.S. troops, contractors, advisors,intelligence, logistics, aid, ISR, everything that the Afghan military had been built aroundand had been trained to rely upon. And so as the U.S. is pulling out, we're all,also kind of knocking the legs out from under an already very shaky Afghan military. And the Taliban,very predictably, as we pulled out, the Taliban moved in, sort of the red blobs sweeping acrossthe country and taking Kabul in rapid fashion before we'd gotten Americans out, before we got an
27:10Afghan allies out. And ultimately, the decision came from the top. It came from President Biden.So that's who ultimately needs to be held accountable for all of this.Just one final question for both of you. What's the number one take?way you want people to have after reading your book?I'll start. And I think first and foremost that people need to understand the full scope ofthe story, which we lay out in Kabul, so that it never happens again. And secondly, that themen and women on the ground did some incredible things and endured some excruciating things.and their stories need to be told and, you know, in large part in their own words, which is what we try to do.
27:59And all that I would add to that is, you know, I definitely encourage people to read our book, Kabul,because there is a lot that we found out.And there are stories of incredible heroism by the Americans on the ground and by private veteran-led groups stepping up where the State Department was falling down.But there are also some heart wrenchingand some terrible stories in there as well.And our biggest conclusion from writing the whole bookis that it didn't have to go this way.Whatever your thoughts were about the war in Afghanistan
28:40generally and withdrawing or not,this withdrawal could not.It's hard to imagine how this withdrawal could have been donein a worse fashion than the way that President Biden did it.And so that's the big takeaway here is that it didn't have to happen this way.And on top of that, there have been ripple effects because of this disastrous withdrawal.I mean, we make a very strong case in the book that the way that the US and NATO were reeling,absolutely reeling and in a shambles because of this,
29:19Afghanistan debacle was very likely the final push that Putin needed to invade, to do a fullinvasion of Ukraine.And obviously this is still a war that is devastating the country of Ukraine to this very day.China also sought to exploit this as well, both with propaganda.They like to call it the Kabul moment.Propaganda directed at the Taiwanese to tell them, look, you can't count on thethe Americans. Don't bother fighting because America won't be there with you. This is the propagandathat they're pushing to Taiwan as they look to invade Taiwan to try and take it. And, you know,
30:02it's a more dangerous world now than it was. And the debacle in Afghanistan played a part in that.Well, Cherry and James, thank you both so much for joining us. I'll definitely include a link to your bookin the show notes so people can check it out.buy it, learn more about what happened two years ago in Afghanistan. Thank you both so much forjoining us. Thank you for having us. Really appreciate it. And that's going to do it for today'sepisode. Thanks so much for listening to my interview with Jerry Dunleavy and James Hassan.We've left a link for Jerry and James' book in the show notes if you want to check that out.And in the meantime, if you haven't had the chance, make sure you subscribe to the Daily Signal
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