The Daily Signal - The Hidden Threat to American Capitalism, Explained by Andrew Puzder

Starting point is 00:00:01 Why would family-friendly brands like Disney or Target or a brand like Anheiser Bush is trying to appeal to beer-drinking guys? Why would they advance the transgender agenda? I mean, for their business, it just doesn't make any sense. Welcome to our special interview edition of the Daily Signal podcast for Sunday, January 26. I'm your host, Rob Louie. And those are the words of Andy Puzzder. He's the former CEO of a major fast food corporation and author of a new book. a tyranny for the good of its victims, the ugly truth about stakeholder capitalism.

Starting point is 00:00:42 And in just the past few days, Puzzler was picked by President Donald Trump to serve as ambassador for the European Union. Well, I didn't get to ask him about that, but we had a great conversation about his book. I spoke to Andy about the dangers of stakeholder capitalism and why all of us are victims of this left-wing scourge. Stay tuned for our interview right after this. we speak business. We speak startup funding and comprehensive game plans. We've mastered made to measure growth and expansion advice, and we can talk your ear off about transferring your business when the time comes. Because at Desjardin business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us,

Starting point is 00:01:27 and contact Desjardin today. We'd love to talk, business. Andy Puzzter, it's good to see you. Welcome back to the The Daily Signal. Great to be here, Rob. Thank you for having me. You're out with a new book, a tyranny for the good of its victims about stakeholder capitalism. It is a topic that years ago, probably most Americans had never heard about. But obviously, it has grown insignificance. Not a good thing. And your book is a warning about the consequences of what we are seeing happen in corporate America. But before we delve into the book, you've been a successful CEO. You're somebody who has been in the public spotlight.

Starting point is 00:02:06 articulating free market principles. What prompted you to tackle a topic like this? Actually, back in 2020, a friend of my name, Orrin Kass, asked me to do a debate with an individual named Patrick Deneen from Notre Dame University on stakeholder capitalism. And really initially, I said, well, nobody takes that seriously. I mean, no business is going to go out there and say, I'm no longer want to make a profit. I'm now going to focus on doing the social, the social good. And back then the big saying was you can do well by doing good. And my reaction was, well, you can't do anybody any good until you do well. I mean, you have to do well first. You can't, you know, you can't focus on being charitable before you actually have a successful

Starting point is 00:02:53 business that, you know, offers products to people, employs people, gives business to suppliers, gives large-est to the community. All of that depends on your success. So I really didn't think anybody took this particularly seriously. I was wrong. Patrick actually, he did a good, I thought we did a good job together, sort of laying out the issues, but he did a good job defending the stakeholder capitalism position. He's a smart guy. And after that debate, I said, you know, people, there are people who really take this seriously. And then the, of course, the Business Roundtable had adopted stakeholder capitalism and deserted Milton Friedman's version of shareholder capitalism, which at the time just stunned me. But then Larry Fink came out with, Larry Fink is the CEO of BlackRock, and BlackRock is the

Starting point is 00:03:39 biggest of these Big Three asset managers. But he came out with a letter saying that in 2019, Black Rock alone of the Big Three had voted against, voted against or withheld votes on 4,800 directors at 2,700 U.S. publicly traded companies. And I said, well, whoa, wait a minute, something's going on here. Something, something not good. This is something. It, Beyond, other than a government taking action, I've never heard of anything, that sort of comprehensive. So it all made me very skeptical and nervous, and I needed to figure out whether somebody was really attacking our free market capitalist system and democracy as well. And it turns out that they were attacking it with great vehemence. You were the CEO of CKE restaurants, Hardee's and Carls Jr.

Starting point is 00:04:27 You held that job until 2017. Did you experience any of this while you were in that position? it more of a recent phenomenon? Yeah, I didn't experience any of it. It really took off with a letter that Larry Think of Black Rock wrote, every year he would issue a letter to the CEOs of America. Initially, it was, here's the problems I see. Around 2018, it started to become, here's what I expect from you. And, you know, that was kind of a bad sign. I mean, here's, Black Rock has a very significant ownership interest in about 97.5% of the companies in the S&P 500 alone. This is, they, they have much broader ownership than just the S&P 500. But they have about 97.5% of the

Starting point is 00:05:13 S&P, so the 500 leading companies really in the United States, they have a significant shareholders interest in. And if you take Black Rock State Street and Vanguard and add them together, they've got, they are the largest shareholder in about 80% of the companies in the S&P 500. So this is a very powerful voting block, which really can direct how these companies go, and indirectly how our economy goes, and by proxy, all of us. You know, this is, that affects everybody, the direction that they force these companies to take. So it was, it was a topic that, as the deeper I dug, the more scared I got. That is scary what you've just outlined in terms of the influence that they have been able to accumulate. So how did Vanguard, State Street, and

Starting point is 00:05:59 BlackRock, which you define as the big three, accumulate that power. So it's through something called passive index investing. This has been going on for probably 25, 30 years with great intensity. Last year, in fact, 2020, well, I guess two years ago now, 2023, for the first time passive index investing, the dollars invested, exceeded the dollars invested in active investing. And what I mean by that is when I was younger, if you wanted to invest, you got a stockbroker, you got a company like Merrill Lynch, and they did an analysis of every company, and they tracked

Starting point is 00:06:34 its profitability, its debt, everything about who its CEO was, and then they would put together a group of companies or specific companies for you to invest in. But doing that kind of research was expensive, time-consuming, and then you had to keep an eye on the company because you wanted to know if they were going in a bad direction if the market was shifting. Index investing is very different. With passive index investing, you don't investigate every company. You invest in a group of companies. For example, the best index, the most popular is called the S&P 500, which is an index of 500 of the largest or mostly the largest, certainly the most successful U.S. companies. And it's weighted by your share price. It's an index that really is very, very difficult.

Starting point is 00:07:23 It's difficult to beat the performance of the 500 best companies in America working together, the 500 best CEOs. You know, they've obviously got good products or they wouldn't be in the top 500 companies. They probably have low debt. They probably have good profitability. And if they don't have any of those things, if they become less profitable, they drop out of the S&P 500. S&P adds in more successful companies. So you've really got an index of companies that as a group should perform very well.

Starting point is 00:07:52 Well, this is also very inexpensive because you just update the index when S&P does. You license the index from S&P, and you don't have to investigate every company. So you've got an investment with very good returns. It's very diversified. You've got 500 companies in there. And it's inexpensive. The fees for this are very, very low. So over time, this has become an increasingly successful form of business over the past

Starting point is 00:08:21 I'd say 20 years Black Rock and State Street have grown to where they now manage about $21 trillion in assets. That's about 80% of the U.S. annual GDP, and it's greater than the GDP of every country in the world except for China and the United States. This is a huge, huge amount of money. And with that comes tremendous stock voting power. They don't actually own the shares beneficially, say they don't get the dividends, they don't benefit from their profits or losses.

Starting point is 00:08:51 but they do get to vote the shares. And when you can vote those shares as to who sits on boards of directors, what shareholder resolutions pass, that gives you a tremendous amount of power. So this is really a three-headed Cerberus that's got unprecedented financial power. We haven't seen anything like this since Rockefeller and J.P. Morgan back in the early 1900s. And I think this is a more powerful cartel than anything that existed back then. It sure seems like it. And with that control that they have then, you outlined in your book things like environment,

Starting point is 00:09:27 social governance policies that they then pressure these companies to adopt. What unpack that for us? Explain what ESG is and some of the consequences of companies moving in that direction. So the point but say cultural capitalism is to empower this group of financial elites, the guys who run these, the big three, these, the largest asset managers in the world, these mega-giant asset managers, to empower them to impose on us their social and political policies. And they believe in order to protect us because they don't trust us to make decisions for ourselves, our nation, or our planet. They think they know better what should be done.

Starting point is 00:10:09 They know better what kind of decisions should be made. So it's really kind of a shortcut around democracy, around the ballot box, because they use their share voting power to implement these policies. and avoid messy and inconvenient things like elections. And it's an attack on shareholder capitalism, on free market capitalism, because they compel these CEOs in these companies to implement their policies rather than focusing on maximizing returns for investors.

Starting point is 00:10:38 They focus them on these social policies. And it's attack on us because it's attack on our individual liberty because they use our money to do it. The monies they're investing are really the monies invested by working in middle-class families and retirement vehicles like pension funds and 401K plans. So ESG is the agenda that they adopt. This is the agenda they want to implement. And ESG stands for environmental, social, and governance.

Starting point is 00:11:03 And it's really, if you've ever read the novel 1984, it's really kind of like Newspeak when Orwell wrote about the government had created this new language called Newspeak that sounded really good. But it didn't mean anything. It didn't have any content. so that the government could fill in the content. Right, right. Well, ESG is kind of the same. It's, you know, who doesn't want a clean environment? Who doesn't want people to be treated fairly?

Starting point is 00:11:27 You know, who doesn't want corporations to be governed effectively? But that's not what this is about. This is about implementing radical, radical net zero climate policies that, you know, that our country has never enacted into law. There's no legislation. Our representatives have never determined that we need to adopt these policies, but they want to impose those policies. on American businesses. The other, the S in ESG is really DEI. It's really diversity, equity,

Starting point is 00:11:55 and inclusion. And you're now seeing companies run away from this. It really is a horrific concept. The idea that we're not going to create a quality of opportunity, we're not going to ignore race and sex and try and treat everybody fairly. We're actually going to, we're going to benefit people based on their race or sex, which is something I think as a nation we've been trying to get away from since we passed the Civil Rights Act in 1964. Well, this is, this, you know, they think their policy should supersede that. So it really was a radical leftist cultural agenda. And I'm not exaggerating here.

Starting point is 00:12:30 I think if people think about it, people listening may think, well, it's all this really true. Just think about why would corporations, big businesses out there, you've probably noticed in making decisions that you thought were just ridiculous. Why are they doing this? What possible sense could this make? Why would family-friendly brands like Disney or Target or a brand like Anheiser Bush that's trying to appeal to beer-drinking guys? Why would they advance the transgender agenda? I mean, for their business, it just doesn't make any sense. Or why would Exxon, Exxon Mobil and Chevron adopt net zero carbon emissions policies? when the product that justifies their existence, their most profitable product is gas and oil.

Starting point is 00:13:17 Well, it's because there really is a group of financial elites, people who run these large asset management firms, who are trying to impose this leftist, radical, woke, cultural agenda on America, on us. And they want to do it without really having a vote or say in the, by way of open market purchases. They just want to decide this for themselves. I think in your book, one of the things that you've spoken about publicly is really it's just, I mean, you called it radical leftism, but I mean, it's also socialism in terms of some of the ways that they're trying to do this. So I think it's really socialism in sheep's clothing.

Starting point is 00:13:58 Okay. And ESG, I call it the champagne socialist agenda. Because it really is an agenda that will only benefit the well to do. I mean, you know, if we cut back on oil production, carbon fuels are responsible for carbon fertilizer, carbon-based fertilizers, which feed 40% of the world. I mean, 40% of our food is dependent on those fertilizers. Well, who's going to suffer if we cut back on that? Who's going to suffer if we don't have enough energy to produce the electricity that we need or to heat our homes and air-condition our homes? Well, it's not going to be rich people.

Starting point is 00:14:30 It's not going to be people that are wealthy. It's going to be the poor and the working class. And so it's a little different than socialism because they don't really want to redistribute income. They want to dictate these these global policies that they think they need to enact to protect us from ourselves because they just don't they don't trust self-government and they don't trust us to govern ourselves. I'm glad you mentioned the book 1984 because one of the things I think we've seen recently is that they recognize that ESG has become a toxic word. Of course they're not going to use socialism because it's deeply unpopular. But as we know from public opinion polls and even the election. election results, Americans are rejecting this approach that they're doing. But you also warned that we

Starting point is 00:15:09 shouldn't necessarily take our eye off of what they're doing because they could just be rebranding it in ways that still accomplish their goals and advance their agenda. You know, they're so good at changing the name. They were, you know, first, well, they were, there were communist and then there were liberals and there were socialist and then they're progressives. And, you know, whenever whenever people figure out what the left is doing, they just change the name. They just change what they're called. So it really doesn't matter that they're not calling it ESG or that people are running away from DEI. What you need to look at it, what I'm going to be looking at in this next proxy voting season are two things. One is the proxy voting guidelines that Black Rock State Street

Starting point is 00:15:49 and Vanguard come out with. We're going to see, do they walk away from these radical client commitments, climate commitments? Do they walk away from these radical DEI commitments? And they're last set of guidelines, they did not. There's a lot of language in there that tries to make it sound like they are, you know, that their lawyers wrote or something. But CEOs can read through. They know what they're being told to do. So I'll watch that. The other thing is how are companies compensating their management staff? How do they compensate the officers of the company? If that compensation is based on meeting these climate targets or on these ridiculous DEI goals, then, you know, they haven't walked away from anything. And I think we're going to find that they will

Starting point is 00:16:29 continue to push the issues, and we're going to have to continue pushing back. I like to, people always ask me, well, you know, Andy, look, everybody's dropping out of these climate alliances and DEIs, like it's on fire. It's like sitting in the middle of Pacific Palisades and the winds are coming. Everybody's trying to get out of the way. I said, yeah, I'm going to quote Winston Churchill, who during World War II, when we started to make some progress against the Nazis, he said, this isn't the end. It's not the beginning of the end. It is perhaps the end of the beginning. And I think we are at the end of the beginning of this fight. People have now come to see the dangers in ESG and DEI and rejected them. Now we've got to make sure that the people that were implementing

Starting point is 00:17:14 those policy agendas are backing off the policies themselves, not just the acronyms. How does Donald Trump's presidency potentially affect the trajectory that these companies might go? Well, he has been very clear that we are not going to abide by the Paris Climate Accord, which is where these net zero climate goals come from. And I think you've already seen corporations backing away from DEI and ESG in droves. You know, you've got meta out there pulling out its DEI program and saying it's now going to defend free speech. And I don't know what took them so long to figure all that out. But you've seen the, there's a group called the net zero asset managers initiative. that actually had about $43 trillion, it members managed about $43 trillion, and they committed to these net zero goals. BlackRock withdrew about a week and a half ago at the end of December. And about a week later, the Net Zero asset managers initiative suspended its operations.

Starting point is 00:18:20 It just gives you some idea how important BlackRock, let alone the big three are to these initiatives. That sure does, yes. So you're seeing some movement in that respect, and I think a lot of that has to do with, you know, the overwhelming victory that President Trump had in this election, and people try and diminish it, but you can't diminish it. You know, we could have had this meeting three months ago, and we'd have been talking about, how many swing states is he going to carry? And there's no way he's going to win the popular vote, but can he win the electoral vote? He won it all. You know, he just won it all.

Starting point is 00:18:51 And not only that, but made gains with groups that were for decades, supposed. supporting Democrats. I mean, and so I think that there's some fear that even where he lost, like in New York City, he did much better. So you're really, you're really seeing a shift, and I think the corporations realize that. And the government's not going to be out there back. The government's under Biden. The government backed all of this. They were supporting Black Rock. They were saying, you know, rah, rah, keep going. I think you're going to see a pullback on that. There was recently a House Judiciary Committee reported 70 pages long. But if you're interested in this issue, it's worth read. Read my book and then you'll understand the report better. But it was devastating

Starting point is 00:19:30 for Black Rock State Street and Vanguard. It accused them of being part of a cartel that colluded to increase energy prices in the United States through these net zero policies that they were foisting on people with shares, money they invested for other people. It's a pretty devastating report. And now you got people coming in in the Trump administration who will be running the antitrust department, they'll probably take a different view. There's a law called ERISA, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act, which protects people with private pension funds. And it says your obligation as a fiduciary to those funds is solely to maximize returns for the investors. It's not to engage in political or ideological goals or issues or agendas. It's to maximize returns.

Starting point is 00:20:19 And you can't maximize returns if you're telling the companies in which you would invest people's money to adopt policies that will diminish their profits like ESG and like DEI. And so I think there's a there could be a reckoning. We'll see. I think this is why companies are trying to back away. They're trying to get away from this stuff. But we'll see how they compensate their employees and what the proxy voting guidelines are. Well, thanks for giving us those tips of things to watch for during proxy voting season. Andy, as you know as well as I am, I mean, having led successful restaurants, I mean, Americans are busy, whether it be with their kids or grandkids or jobs. They don't have time to focus on what's going on in Wall Street or corporate America oftentimes.

Starting point is 00:21:02 But as you've indicated, not only in the book, but in our conversation, this really does affect their everyday lives in many different ways. Why should they care? Why should they pick up a copy of your book and make sure that they are aware of what's going on? Well, I think we all want to see a country where people are judged based on their merits, not on the color of their skin, not in their race or their sex. and this DEI initiatives do great harm to that. You know, Robbie Starbucks has been doing a great job in getting companies to come out and say, all right, we, you know, this was wrong.

Starting point is 00:21:31 We're not doing this anymore. So I think that's important. If you want to see people treated fairly, if you want to see equal opportunity, this is a country that's great because you can accomplish everything that you want to accomplish and that God equipped you to accomplish.

Starting point is 00:21:47 And that doesn't mean that we're all going to be, we're all going to end up exactly the same place like Biden and Kamala Harris like to say, you know, I'm never going to be the center for the Lakers or, you know, a guard for the Lakers, as much as I love basketball and would love to be. I'm not going to be a shortstop for the Yankees. But there are things I can do, and it's important that you have the ability to reach those goals. The other thing is energy. Energy is going to be critically important going forward, particularly with all these data

Starting point is 00:22:15 centers that we're building, AI. You know, we've got to stay ahead of China or we're going to be speaking Chinese. 50 years. And we've got to, we are the leader in this and we need to stay the leader. And that's going to require that we use the fossil fuels, the energy that we've been so blessed to have, and that we can power the electric grid. So people can not only take advantage of these great jobs that are going to be created by AI, but can heat their homes and cool their homes and drive their cars, you know, even an electric car. You got the electricity from somewhere. I don't know where people think the electricity comes from. I'm driving a clean electric car. Yeah, but was

Starting point is 00:22:50 a coal power plant that created the electricity. I mean, we really need to be focused on what works and what's rational, or we're going to all end up like California, where, you know, you pass a bunch of policies to reduce carbon emissions, which mean nothing because China's just pouring them out and they just spread all over the world. You know, California doesn't get protected because its carbon emissions are lower. Rather than, what they should be, they acknowledge you're doing that because of climate change. Well, if you believe the climate's changing so significantly that you need to take these actions. You ought to be preparing for the consequences because there's nothing you're doing is changing the fact that carbon emissions continue and that the climate's going to continue to

Starting point is 00:23:28 change. But you ought to be addressing things like, what if there's a big fire in the middle of a highly populated area in Southern California? Well, maybe we should be prepared for that. So we've got to prepare. Americans have to be aware that we've been being led down a kind of a primrose path on these issues. It's been driven by these businesses being forced to adopt these policies by these massive shareholders who are using our money to enforce policies that are not in our best interest. So I think it's important that we care about it. And I think people are coming to understand that. I think they may not understand everything I just said to you, but there is an innate reaction that something's wrong here. There definitely is. And I thank you for pointing out the energy issue.

Starting point is 00:24:11 So, Aquelea, I recently spoke to Jack Spencer at the Heritage Foundation, who has a new book out nuclear energy. And he talked about, you know, the massive demand that we are going to require from the electric grid in the future. And I think Americans feel that acutely, particularly when they're affected in ways where they can't go about their normal routine. Nuclear energy would be great. Do as much of it as you can. But don't pretend that we're going to cut back on oil and gas anytime soon because it just isn't going to happen. That's right. You mentioned Robbie Starbuck in that last answer. One of the things that I have loved about not only his campaign is that And it really resonates with people that they can have an active role.

Starting point is 00:24:48 So when it comes to reform or taking on some of these massive entities like a Black Rock or a State Street or a Vanguard, are there things that individual Americans can do to help this cause that you're talking about? Well, the impressive thing with Robes, he did this online. You know, this is all social media. And he was smart about it. He started with companies that actually their customer base allowed them to back off DEI.

Starting point is 00:25:11 He didn't start with Starbucks. He didn't stop with Ben and Jerry's. You know, he started with a tractor company, right? So he did this in a very smart way, and I think people supporting initiatives and educating themselves. Educate yourself, support the initiatives that actually fight back about these attempts to subvert our democracy and our free market capitalist economy, which is, I've got a whole chapter in there on how over the last 200 years it's created just incredible wealth for the entire

Starting point is 00:25:41 world. Matter of fact, Barack Obama in 2015 said, we don't dispute that capitalism has created the greatest wealth in human history and has lifted billions of people out of poverty. Well, why would you want to screw with that? I mean, this is the system that took humanity from, you know, really utter poverty. Eighty-seven percent of the world's population lived in extreme poverty in 1820 when capitalism was getting going. It's about eight percent now. And you can track the countries that adopted capitalist economies like the United States. States. We were first. And when you adopt a capitalist economy, you just soar Japan after World War II. Soars. You know, Western Europe after World War II, where they adopted capitalism. They kind of

Starting point is 00:26:21 backed off now. But they soared. You know, you really shoot up, even China when it adopted red cap, which isn't even real capitalism. It's just sort of fake capitalism. But even that encouraged their people. And until Xi Jinping came in and kind of cut back on those initiatives, the economy did very well. So we really don't want to lose that. We don't want to lose our democracy. I think we, we the people, run things much better than these elites who think they know what we want when they don't know what we want and they don't know what's good for us. I think that if we're going to protect democracy, we're going to protect free market capitalism. We didn't understand these issues.

Starting point is 00:26:58 And I hope my book is a step in helping people do that. I think so. One final question on that topic. Do you think consumer boycotts work? What happened to Anheuser-Busch and Target and others? Have they been effective in sending a message to those corporate leaders? Yeah, they are effective, but you have to remain diligent. I mean, you can't like, because the store is in a convenient location, you're going back there two weeks later.

Starting point is 00:27:23 I mean, you know, I love Ben and Jerry's Cherry Garcia ice cream. I don't buy it. I'm not going to buy it. You know, there are things you just do or you don't do. It's your choice as to what you do. And I think if we're at a point, look, the left certainly is very good at, at, and at patronizing companies that support their values. On the right, we need to be just as good or better.

Starting point is 00:27:46 And sometimes that'll cause a little pain, but I think we need to let these companies know what we think. You know, Disney's the one that gets me out. When I was, I've six kids. When my older kids were younger, like if they were watching a movie or something, I'd say to my wife, you know, is this a movie okay for them to watch it? It's a Disney movie.

Starting point is 00:28:06 I mean, that literally, it's a Disney movie. You don't have to worry about it. Well, today I'd worry about it. And why would they walk away from that? You know, why would you give up that that was such an essential part of their success as a company? And for no obvious reason, they walked away from it. Now, maybe there are people in the company who believe this is the way to go. But I got a feeling there was also pressure from outside to adopt these DEI initiatives.

Starting point is 00:28:33 And they went overboard and they suffered for it. They're still suffering for it. Well, there are individuals out there who are trying to create marketplaces like Public Square or in the case of Disney alternatives like Minow or Sycamore Studios are doing great work in that space. And so it's encouraging as a parent myself to know that you have options out there. You don't necessarily just have to rely on those people whose values aren't aligned with my own. Andy, tell us finally about how people can find a copy of the book or follow your work and other things that you might be doing. You get to book on Amazon. At Andy Puzzder is my Twitter handle, and I do, you know, most of the stuff I put out is on

Starting point is 00:29:12 X, I should say, it's my X handle right now, my Twitter handle. But you can get the book on Amazon. I had a book out back in 2018 called The Capitalist Comeback that covers a lot of the important issues about capitalism and about Trump's economic agenda. So both books are on Amazon, and I hope people take the time to read them. I think this one is the most timely. This is the one that addresses the issue we're really facing today and making progress on, thank God. It certainly is.

Starting point is 00:29:39 Andy Puzzler, thank you for spending time with The Daily Signal today. Strongly encourage our audience to pick up a copy. We'll make sure that we leave a link in the show notes so you can easily click that link and purchase the book. Thank you so much, sir. We wish you well in the future. Thank you very much. You too. And that'll do it for today's episode.

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The Daily Signal - The Hidden Threat to American Capitalism, Explained by Andrew Puzder

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