The Daily Signal - USA Boxing’s New Transgender Rule Could ‘Kill a Woman,’ Coach Warns

Episode Date: January 17, 2024

USA Boxing has changed its rules to allow men who identify as women to compete in the female category, a change that coach Cary Williams warns could be deadly.  Even one man competing against women is “all it takes to do damage; that’s all it takes to kill a woman,” says Williams, a USA Olympic-level female boxing coach.  “I’m extremely scared for the safety of our girls and our women in boxing,” she told “The Daily Signal Podcast.”  The new policy requires males to meet specific hormone levels and to have undergone surgery to “alter” their gender. But Williams says the new policy does not acknowledge that men have “larger hearts, larger lungs, bone density, strength.” “You’re talking about muscle-fiber differences. Those are all something we’re born with,” she says.  Williams, the founder of women’s fight-gear brand Tussle, joins the show to discuss USA Boxing’s rule change and what she thinks female boxers should do to stand up against the dangerous policy.  Enjoy the show! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I couldn't believe it. You know, I've seen it happening in other sports. And in my mind, I thought they will never do that in boxing because we hit each other in the face, in the head, in the body. And it never even crossed my mind that that would happen. This is the Daily Signal podcast for Wednesday, January 17th. I'm Virginia Allen. And that was USA Olympic Level 4 female boxing coach Carrie Williams, discussing a recent rule change. that allows men to compete against women in boxing matches. That's right. On January 1st, USA boxing officially changed its policy so that now men who identify as women can get in the ring and box with females. Carrie has been boxing herself and coaching for years and says her concern is that women are going to get hurt

and could even be killed if a man is allowed to box with them. She joins me on the show today to explain what ringside physicians are saying about the rule change and what other female boxers think of the new policy. Stay tuned for our conversation. But first, if you or someone you know works in higher education, listen up. We all know that the academic environment is particularly challenging right now, especially for faculty who research, publish, teach, or develop programs in areas that explore economic freedom,

the dignity of the person, human flourishing, constitutional governments, national security, and other issues that are related to freedom, opportunity, and traditional American values. And funding opportunities for such projects is incredibly scarce. That's why the Heritage Foundation established the Freedom and Opportunity Academic Prizes to recognize and provide financial awards to faculty at Higher Education Institutions. The deadline for the application is February 1st. Winners will receive a financial award of $15,000 in recognition of their past accomplishments, the importance of their current work, and their future promise in the academy, especially in relation to public policy. Again, the deadline to

apply is February 1st. You can find more information and the application by visiting heritage.org slash innovation prize. Again, that website is heritage.org slash innovation prize. It is my pleasure and joy today to be joined by USA Olympic Level 4 female boxing coach, Carrie Williams. Carrie has a successful run in boxing herself before becoming a coach. She is also the founder of the women's fight gear brand Tustle and CEO of B&B method, which is the certification company that certifies trainers around the globe in Carrie's

specific gym method. Carrie, thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited. Well, let's go ahead and dive in and hear some of your story. How did you first get into boxing? Yeah, I know. It's a funny, funny way how we get into what we're doing now, right?

Yeah. Yeah, actually, I graduated with an environmental science degree from college. So, you know, of course I'm using that. But, you know, I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit and I wanted to do something that hadn't been done before. I had a friend at the time that was a boxer. And I just remember them saying, you know, oh, well, I go to the gym. A lot of people want to learn how to box, but no trainers will train them unless they want to be fighters. So I thought, well, why not open a gym where anybody and everybody can come in?

they can learn boxing, maybe not get hit, but learn the actual sport. And that was back in 1998. So in actuality, I was a gym owner before I was a coach. And I was a coach before I was a boxer. Okay. So you did it backwards. Oh, yeah. Always.

What do you prefer, coaching or boxing yourself? You know what? I love coaching. It's, you know, boxing's great because it's one of those things where you're strategic. You know, a lot of people think it's just us out there hitting each other. But there's a lot of strategy involved. And I do miss that about participating in the sport. But the opportunity to make changes in people, you know, whether they're athletes or they're not athletes, is pretty amazing, especially for youngsters.

So I've been able to touch a lot of people over these, you know, 25 years of being in boxing. So I would say for me, coaching is more rewarding. So cool. What are some of the, or who are some of the athletes that you've coached? You know, I wouldn't say any big names per se. I did take a young lady, Marina Ramirez, to the Olympic trials, which was the very first Olympic games that women were allowed to box in. Wow.

So that wasn't too long ago. It was 2012. So we've been, you know, fighting for our seat at the table for a long time as women in the sport. So, yeah, we had a great little kind of Olympic trial tour, just her and I, and I'll never forget it. It was pretty amazing. That is really special. Are the rules different in female boxing versus male boxing? Yeah, they are.

And, you know, and it also depends on if you're fighting professional. if you're fighting amateur. You're looking at, you know, two-minute rounds versus three-minute rounds. And the pros, you're looking at for a championship fight 10 rounds instead of 12 rounds. So there are differences in the competition. And they've always been there for the safety of women. Sure, sure. Well, let's talk about that, the safety of women within boxing.

So some of our listeners have probably heard the news that on January 1st, USA boxing, became the latest sport in America to implement new rules to allow men who identify as women to compete against women. Carrie, when you heard this news and you heard that USA boxing was changing the rules, what were some of the first thoughts that ran through your head? I couldn't believe it. You know, I've seen it happening in other sports. And in my mind, I thought they will never do that in boxing because we hit each other in the face. And head and the body and it never even crossed my mind that that would happen. So I was completely shocked. And then I was really upset. You know, like I said, we've been fighting for a long time

to get our seat at the table in the Olympics. And, you know, this is in amateur boxing. So USA boxing is the body that basically all the amateurs go through that organization to make it to the Olympics. So, yeah, I was very upset about it, and I felt like I had to speak out about it. You know, I feel like a lot of folks are really nervous to speak out, and whether that's, you know, a platform like this or it's on their social media, you know, even though I believe that majority of women feel the same way I feel. And I think lots of guys feel the same way.

And it's just nobody's coming out to saying. I don't say nobody, but there are very few. Yeah. Well, I really applaud you for your willingness to speak out and to be a voice on this issue, to be a voice for other female boxers. And explain if you would just a little bit of this rule, the context. There are specific benchmarks that these males have to hit in order to compete with women, correct, before they're allowed to compete.

Right. So there are certain testosterone levels they must meet, which is kind of crazy because we have anti-doping. And so, you know, a hormone is a hormone, a replacement. You know, it is what it is. But there's also, they're 18 and older. But the thing is that they are not required to have gone through their transition before puberty. And that is a big problem. I mean, already, you know, boys and girls are different.

You know, men and women were born differently. You're talking about larger hearts, larger lungs, bone density, strength. You're talking about muscle fiber differences. Those are all something we're born with. Like genetically, we're not just talking about going through puberty. But once you go through puberty, I mean, that's just, it's a whole other ballgame. So with the rule, that's not required. It's, you know, I identify as this. I'm at a certain level of hormones,

and I have to be, you know, at that level for so many years and maintain that and get tested. That's pretty much what the rule is. Okay. Have you ever personally boxed against a man? I have an experience when I was 30 and I was competing. I was sparring. We had a lot of teenage boys. in our club. And I was sparring with one of them. And he was 16. And he was going very light on me, which, you know, it's always a kind of a,

we don't talk about it, but we all know if you're going against a woman in the ring, you go light on them. And it's unspoken rule. So he was going light on me. And he just threw in a body shot. And it just hit me perfectly. He didn't mean to hit me hard,

flicked it in there. and gave me a hairline fracture of my rib. I'm 30 years old. He's 17 and he's, you know, cracking my rib. And so, yeah, I have had that experience. I have, you know, I understand firsthand what the difference is in that power. And again, that was a teenager. Wow.

So when you're speaking out, when you're sharing stories like that, and I have seen other female boxers who are saying, saying, wait a second, there are major safety concerns here. When you all are speaking out and reaching out to USA boxing, how are they saying that they're going to address or are they saying how they're going to address these concerns over safety with men and women both competing together? I'm not getting any responses. So I don't know.

But I did realize that. So there's an entity that's between USA boxing and the IOC, which is the Olympic Committee, right? So between that, we had IABA. Everybody pronounced it a little bit different, but they got in trouble for something. And so the IOC kicked them out. And so we were like, whoa, we're not going to be able to box. And so this organization got created and stepped in called World Boxing. And this just happened.

in 2023 around March-ish. So now I went through their website. I've been trying to get a hold of somebody there. And it pretty much states that whatever gender you are, that's where you compete at. That's what their rule says. And they're between USA boxing and the Olympic IOC. So I don't know where it's all going to lie. It's kind of really up in the air.

You know, this person's saying this, this person's saying this. But I'm still waiting for answers. So I've been reaching out to different people in those organizations. And I haven't gotten any responses yet. And when you're talking with the female boxers that you work with, what are they saying? Oh, gosh. It's, you know, and the thing is it's not just in boxing. It's in wrestling and MMA, you know, other combat sports, jiu-jitsu.

I'm getting stories told to me from young girls that are talking about, you know, they got their nose broke and just in training with boys or men. But yeah, the women in the boxing community, I don't know one of them personally that has said, yeah, this is a great idea. They are extremely upset about it. I do understand that, you know, we're in Olympic Games in 2024. So a lot of our women have worked really hard for a lot of years to get where they're at. Now, for them to step up and speak out against USA boxing, it puts their Olympic dreams in jeopardy. So I think a lot of them are very nervous to really kind of step up and speak out and ruffle any feathers because of where they're at. And the thing is in 2024, I don't believe.

there will be any transgender's boxing at the Olympics, at least in the USA, because this rule is, you know, kind of new. But, you know, for the future, it's, you know, and it can do, some people say, oh, there's not that many trans, you know, what are you worried about? There could be one. That's what it takes to do damage. That's all it takes to kill a woman. And that's all it takes for it to grow steadily. And then there are more and there are more and there are more. So what?

Just because there's one, it's okay? I don't understand that logic at all. So yeah, I'm extremely scared for the safety of our girls and our women in boxing. Well, Carrie, I mean, there's obviously a physical side to it that's very obvious concerns over safety. But then I also think about prepping to go into a match as a woman knowing I am going to be fighting again. a male and just that psychological toll that that would potentially take. Because, right? I mean, as athletes, you prepare just as much psychologically as you do physically, right?

So true. I can tell you, you can lose the fight before you step into the ring. It is so much more mental than most people realize. And if you know you're stepping in there with a person who is a man, yeah, you're not going to have that much confidence. You might even be a little bit more nervous. You might be scared for your life. Yeah, I can't imagine me personally still boxing and having to deal with that.

I actually wouldn't, quite frankly, I would step away. I wouldn't really care where I was at in my boxing career. I would have to take a stand and get my girls' together and my team together and say, look, we've got to walk from this. Because power is in numbers. And if these women all step away from this, then who's going to be competing at the Olympics? Wow. So, I mean, that's pretty bold. So you would tell Team USA boxing, hey, walk away if you have a man coming in to compete against you guys. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. Wow. So what is your message? want to give you a platform just to speak really clearly to USA boxing.

What do you want to say to them? You know, what I want to say to them? I feel like they are doing women a disservice, and they are jeopardizing their safety. And speaking of safety, USA boxing, you were aware of a paper written by the Association of Rinkside Physicians. they made it very clear that this is unsafe. Ringside physicians, they're the ones that are there at ringside to make sure every fighter is safe.

So if you're not listening to a recommendation that they have, what are you doing? Wow. I mean, that's huge, Carrie, that you have the physicians who are on the sidelines who are raising concerns over this. What, if you would, talk us through that. what are some of their key concerns related to safety and what are some of the injuries that they

have voiced concern overseeing more of if you have men and women in rings together? They are not being specific, but they are definitely stating that a man who is competing in the women's category is dangerous because men and women are built differently. Once they go through puberty, it is just such a stark difference that it is completely unsafe. And they recommend not to allow transgender people to compete in the women's category. And they also, you know, on the other side, they also talk about transgender people competing in the men's. You know, it's a safety issue as well on that end. But you're not getting a lot of that.

There is a professional transgender person that is competing as a man and has done has, I think has three wins. Now, this person was a five-time national champion as a woman and also competed at the Olympic trials. I'm not sure if she made the team, but you could see she'd been boxing since she was young and had a lot of experience as a boxer. So the thing with professional boxing, anybody can go and get their professional boxing license. They do not need to be an amateur boxer or have experience. They can go down to the commission at that state and get a boxing license if all of their physicals are fine. Neurologicals are fine. So basically the three guys that she has fought, their records are like 0 and 3. And they have no boxing experience. Well, if she's allowed to take testosterone, which she's, She is because they're, you know, she's becoming a man. Yeah. So you put all that together. Well, sure.

She could, she could beat a few guys. I mean, come on. It just doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah. Carrie, are you concerned about getting canceled? As you mentioned, there's, there's some folks who are speaking out, but I think many are frightened to do so and understandably so from what we have seen when, people speak out on this issue, it often isn't pretty. Why are you still choosing to speak out,

even given the risks that you know you face? You know, I don't think about it. That's the thing is, you know, I don't live my life on having followers or getting likes or getting views. I'm not concerned about that. And the thing is that if somebody has a different view than me and they can't just simply go, okay, she thinks that way, I think this way, let's move forward and let's live our lives, then is that the person that I really want to be associated with? I don't mind people having other views, but to cancel somebody because you have another view, that just is idiocracy to me. So it's fine if I lose, you know, followers or what have you. Yeah, yeah. Well, Kerry, go ahead. Tell us how can we keep up with your work if we want to follow what you're doing? How do we follow you? And also, if we're interested in maybe picking up boxing, trying it out. We're at the start of a new year, 2024. How can we learn about what you're doing? Maybe get involved with Tustle. Share with us how we can follow along.

For sure. So Tustle is a, it's an all-female fight gear company because we are building. differently than men. So this isn't a shrink-it-and-pink gear. It is actually, we have custom molding for women's hands, whether they're wearing gloves, or they're holding punch mitts, and their coach, or whatever. So, so, yeah, so tusslegear.com. And, you know, we have also, we do clinics, our brand partners, they do clinics around the nation. And, you know, whatever their specialty is, it could be jiu-jitsu, it could be boxing, it could be whatever. They're doing clinics in their cities offered to girls and women for free, you know, just to spend an hour getting a skill set or to be introduced to something.

So we'll be doing that in 2024. So, yeah, I mean, that's kind of what we're doing with the tussle brand right now. And I'm super excited about it. I love that. It's so good. Well, encourage all of our listeners. Make sure that you're checking out Kerry Williams' work following our cross-social media platforms. And we're going to be continuing to follow the situation with USA Boxing here at the Daily Signal

on the problematic women podcast as well. So, Carrie, thank you for your time today. We really appreciate it. Yes, thank you so much. And with that, that's going to do it for today's episode. Thank you for being with us here on the Daily Signal podcast. Make sure that you check out our evening show in the same podcast feed where every weekday around 5 p.m. we bring you the top news of the day.

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