The Daily Zeitgeist - AI Drip, Hooked On Screens 03.28.23

Episode Date: March 28, 2023

In episode 1450, Miles and guest co-host, Pallavi Gunalan, are joined by author of Unwired: Gaining Control Over Addictive Technologies, Professor Gaia Bernstein, to discuss… The Pope’s Puffy Jacket Was An AI Fake Sadly, Apple Also Ignoring The Total Lack of Enthusiasm for VIRTUAL REALITY, UNWIRED and more! The Pope’s Puffy Jacket Was An AI Fake Sadly The swagged-out pope is an AI fake — and an early glimpse of a new reality Apple Also Ignoring The Total Lack of Enthusiasm for VIRTUAL REALITY LISTEN: Grateful by El Michels Affair & Black ThoughtSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In 1982, Atari players had one game on their minds, Sword Quest, because the company had promised $150,000 in prizes to four finalists. But the prizes disappeared, leading to one of the biggest controversies in 80s pop culture. I'm Jamie Loftus. Join me this spring for The Legend of Sword Quest. We'll follow the quest for lost treasure across four decades. Listen to The Legend of Sword Quest on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Bruce Bozzi. On my podcast, Table for Two, we have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best guests you could possibly ask for. People like Matt Bomer, Emma Roberts, and Colin Jost.

Did you say a Caesar salad with lobster? Yeah. Whoa. Our second season is airing right now, so you can catch up on our conversations that are intimate and often hilarious. Listen to Table for Two with Bruce Bozzi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, fam. I'm Simone Boyce. I'm Danielle Robay. And we're the hosts of The Bright Side,

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And that's why I feel so safe now. Listen to The Bright Side from Hello Sunshine on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, the Internet, and welcome to Season 281, Episode 2 of The Daily Psych Geist. This is still a production of iHeartRadio. It's still a podcast where we still take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. It's Tuesday, March 28th, 2023. I feel like Jack wasn't really telling you what national day it is because sometimes it doesn't matter. But I'll just tell you what it is.

It's National Black Forest Cake Day. National Weed Appreciation Day, not cannabis, but just the weeds that grow in your yards, American Diabetes Association Alert Day and National Triglycerides Day. Wow. And something on a stick day for those of you that indulge with things on sticks like marshmallows or carrots or whatever, what have you. My name is Myles Gray, a.k.a. the Heartbroken Bruin, as I watched UCLA crash out of Gonzaga on Thursday. But I am back and I am still Hideo Noho. And I am thrilled to be joined by my co-host today, a hilarious comedian, someone who is doing good whenever they possibly can.

And a wonderful host. Oh, my God. Forgive me. What's the stand-up show again? I've been on leave too long. I'll introduce you first It's Pala Vegan Island Pala V

Thank you First of all, that just reminds me that my triglycerides are high And second of all, carrots on a stick? Bro, have more fun What are you doing? I'm sorry A carrot is a stick, dude Oh wow, so you would

It's a major stick If you're going to improve upon the form you would put something upon the carrot upon the carrot that's what i'm saying okay but that's an engineer mind you know what i mean yes yes what was the stand-up show again that you host so i have a city council it's a podcast oh yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah. what we're going to be doing today, we have to introduce our guest. She is the technology, privacy, and policy professor of law, co-director of the Institute for Privacy Protection, and co-director of the Gibbons Institute of Law, Science, and Technology at Seton Hall University, and the author of the book, Unwired, Gaining Control Over Addictive Technologies. Please welcome Gaia Bernstein. Gaia, welcome. Thank you. Thank you

for having me. Oh, thank you for blessing us on this second rate podcast with your first rate acumen. But yes, we really appreciate you stopping by. I like that she comes with her own AKA. She had so many titles. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like those are legit.. Over here, I'm saying like, I'm the Lord of Lancashire Boulevard. That's not a real thing. But for the people in North Hollywood, California, they know it is. But Gaia, welcome to the show. Where are you coming to us from today? From New York City, all the way.

Okay, okay. And yeah, we're going to talk a little bit about your book and some other technology things as we get into it. But how has it been, you know, doing a few interviews, getting out there, talking with interesting people? Are we the most interesting people you've spoken with so far without really being 10 minutes into a conversation? For sure, you're the funniest. Nobody's been funny so far. Oh, man, that's all I ever wanted. Well, you're the funniest for sure. Okay, well, Gaia, we are going to get to know you a little bit better.

But first, we're going to tell people some of the things we're going to talk about. First, the Pope's puffy jacket. No, he is not. His style is not that lit. Although I guess many people would love if the Pontifex was doing a Pontiflex upon us mortals on planet Earth. But we'll talk about that AI generated image. I just remember some people, the evolution of people being like, I can't believe it to them.

Like, oh, yeah, I knew that was AI the whole time. Yeah, I knew. I knew the slippery slope that we're already finding ourselves on in the last couple of weeks with that. We'll also talk about Apple because it seems like they're also ignoring the total lack of enthusiasm for virtual reality headsets with their upcoming, you know, mixed reality headset that I can't believe they're still insisting is something we might want. But we'll talk a little bit about that and the, you know, lack of confidence that some of the people working on it are experiencing. And then got to talk to Gaia about, look, I'm a new parent.

are experiencing. And then got to talk to Gaia about, look, I'm a new parent. I'm very aware of, you know, just how many other parents too, or talk about screen time. I was raised by my mother, like saying, don't watch the TV. It's going to rot your brain and how all of these things have evolved. So I'm really interested in talking to you about sort of the evolution of our addictive technologies and kind of we're, you know, hurtling towards this very isolated way of living, because that's something we talk about a lot in the show. But first, Gaia, we got to ask you, Professor Gaia Bernstein, what is something from your search history that might reveal something about who you are, what you're into right now? So, you know, I like this question because I remember going to a conference and seeing a slide and having the Google search, but instead it said, I confess.

So basically whatever is in our search is like what's going through our brains. And there's nothing special in my search. Basically, it shows how my brain just jumps from one thing to another. So I would be researching a privacy class, so I would look for a movie about drones. Then I'd remember, I know this person who wrote an article, so I will switch to Googling their name. And then a minute later, I'll remember that I have to feed my kids,

and there's this fish in the fridge, and I have a recipe. So I look for the recipe, and then I recall that I never got groceries, so I switched to Googling the Fresh Direct. So and all of this happens in 10 minutes. So really this, you can see how my brain operates from this. Sure, sure. And do you, it is funny when you can kind of look at your own stream of consciousness via Google searches. And you're like, wow, I had an interesting two hours right there from like looking at.

Wait, so what's this? What kind of drone stuff were you looking up? Well, I was looking up for... I teach about privacy in drones. And actually, the first time I showed my student drones, it was when COVID-19 broke in China. And this was the only video I found online. So I decided to show it to them,

never realizing that a month later, this is going to be here. And this was just showing them how drones can basically fly over an empty city and how it looks and how they take pictures. And it was shocking to know what happened next. Yeah. What kind of privacy laws are there with drones? Because I feel like it's, I get that like, you're not supposed to do like fly drones in certain areas but like in la i see so many people like in residential areas like i'll hear the whir of like a drone and it's like i saw on like the murdaugh trial documentary they had like drones that were flying and watching as people remove guns from a place like it was like legit evidence and it was just a dude with a drone yeah that's not enough the main thing you have to do as people removed guns from a place. It was like legit evidence.

And it was just a dude with a drone. Yeah, that's not enough. The main thing you have to do is register it with the FAA, but it's not. Basically, you can do a lot with a drone right now. Just a kid with a drone. Right, exactly. But then I see videos where people are like,

I took a drone down that was above my home. And part of me is like, I guess that's fair if you're using a bolo to take a drone down but yeah it's good to know starting early on the robot wars you know yeah right i mean already it's funny when you see like people help sometimes help the delivery robots get across the street and then you see like the like luddite type people who are like man fuck this robot like take it over and you're just like just decide on one miles you should know that luddites were a name for revolutionary workers come on yes yes i know but look and just like we should be smashing chat gpt we should probably be smashing them printing presses i get that because man that's a whole other box of worms

too in the last couple days of talking like really earnestly with people about AI and some people really being on the side of like, it's a great tool that could make things so much easier. And as somebody who has been laid off before, look how budget cuts are made. I'm like, that looks like a way to condense like 15 jobs into two. But are we then grappling with the complexity of that after? I'm like torn because I did work in ai in my phd that i quit but i think like everything gets like automated and job security just like constantly changes as as technology evolves so i think that responsibility like definitely like the people making the tech need to be talking to policymakers more to prepare the masses for the skill changes.

I mean, think about computer scientists now versus 15 years ago. The job market has completely changed. And I think AI is scary because of what we're going to talk about next. But there are good uses for it. I'm not going to be impressed with AI until someone makes a single printer that works works reliably you know what i mean like i don't care about all of these advances

i just want a printer to work you know i want a powerpoint to not defeat a professor okay guide how what do you how are you like what's how it is sort of ai sort of intersect with your work right now well i, I think... I feel like the writing has been on the wall for a while. People are so shocked that ChatsyPT came in and what are they going to do with students and how are they going to learn anything? But seriously, we've just been incorporating technology

into the classroom without even thinking. And suddenly this thing is there and it's the first time we're stopping to think and realizing maybe maybe not all technology is good maybe a kid would not learn if they as their essay is written by chat gpt so even though i'm very concerned about what's going to happen i'm sort of happy there's some kind of wake-up call here right yeah i talked to some professors about this i talked to a professor from germany and he was saying that they do use like ai to write essays but the ways to get around that is they have like rival technology to detect when ai is being used to write the essay so that's what's happening in europe right now and i was like how how much is

this going to go back and forth this This is like a kid battling their parent with parental controls. You know what I mean? Like trying to lock them out with the password. Right. And that never goes anywhere because there's always a new technology and it's just...

Yeah, but the fact we're faced by this and it's out there, like there was no warning. It just came, the chat GPT, and now we're supposed to deal with the consequences and there's no time to think even because it's out here yeah and because i like i have friends too who are like in grant writing too they're not born writers you know they're just like motivated people in the field that they do and grant writing is difficult and they're like it's taken a lot of work off of my plate i'm not

a born writer or like i have this literary skill to be writing like compelling things it's much easier to use that and I'm like I completely understand where these tools like how they're used and then I have friends who work in advertising who are like yeah company clients are now coming to us with like half-baked decks that AI generated and it's like sort of diminishing the kinds of work that we're able to do even as advertising agencies along with them I'm like you see you see where the sort of the squeezing and expansion is beginning to happen. But yeah, it's... This is why robots need to take over all of the labor,

and then we just get to frolic in fields all day. Thank you. You know what I mean? Let us frolic. Let us go back to the easier times. Oh, we just consume and sit on our screens and consume the internet and do nothing else because we have no more work to do. I want Wally. I want Wally. Okay. Gaia, what is something that you think is

overrated? What I think is overrated? I think it's basically texting progress. So I'll give you two examples what I mean by that. So I have, I'm supposed to meet a friend in a restaurant and she arrives five minutes early. So she texts me, I'm, I just got here. And then she texts me two minutes later, I'm sitting at the corner of the table. And then, you know, I come in and instead of looking for her, I text her, I'm here. And why all these extra texting? It's not really necessary. Or I live in New York City. We order food all the time. We order delivery.

So, you know, you get confirmation when you order food. I guess that's good. You know, your order got in. But then you get another text. Your food is being prepared. And then you get another one. Your delivery is on the way. And then usually, like two minutes after it was delivered you get a text saying congratulations

your food was delivered right right do we really need all of this that makes me think you know like the constant progress alerts has to be something that i know like in your book you touch on like the idea that a lot of technology stuff is informed by like like neuropsychologists too and just the idea of like what's going to get someone like, this is actually a feature that people want, even though we're like, do we? But I also get it in the age of such instant gratification

that it's probably for the kinds of people who are like, well, what's going on with my order? Like, where is it? And then you can at least have, oh, okay, they're preparing it. Oh, okay, they have another stop along the way. Right, but spit over the top because every time i get one of these texts i don't just say okay the food is coming my kids will get dinner i start

looking at my emails and i start checking facebook and now i've spent 10 minutes just because i got this extra text wow it's also it takes the responsibility off of the person to be like patient you know what i mean like that and that makes like more face to face conversations and demands like much more terrifying because people expect efficiency at their demand and at their service, you know? Right, right. I just was thinking of recently I got like a like a like got like a delivery thing. And it was like telling me, they're like, oh, yeah, this package will arrive in like five days from now, four days from now. I'm like, yeah, I knew that when you gave me the like, you know, expected delivery date. And to that point, I'm like, maybe this is for a very specific kind of psychology that it's catering to,

because it certainly was not me. Gaia, what's something you think is underrated? Well, two things which are related, I think alarm clocks and wristwatches. So if I had an alarm clock, instead of using the alarm on my phone, instead of getting up in the morning in bed and picking up my phone and of course, checking my email, my three email accounts, my social networks, WhatsApp, whatever, text, I could maybe just, you know, wake up in a more normal way. But I don't have a separate alarm.

I'm dreaming about that. So one day I get to get one. And another thing is a wristwatch. I don't want to have one either. I actually lost it three months ago and didn't get a chance to buy a new one. But so every time I want to know the time again, I pick up my phone and I just describe what happens. So I think these are things that if they came back into fashion would be great. I know.

That's why like the Apple Watch Watch was so insidious. I got it in the beginning of the pandemic as a heart rate monitor, too, because I was running more. And I was like, oh, this is great. And I don't have to bring an iPod. I can listen with my wristwatch. It's less bulk. But to your point now, when I look at my wrist, it's for so much more than the time.

Now, when I look at my wrist, it's for so much more than the time. And it's, yeah, the amounts of information on offer from such a small device is, it can definitely take your attention. When I was a kid, I used to wear a wristwatch in like third grade and I was the only one who did. So I was like a little baby businessman and I always needed it before I went to school. I was like, I'm going to be late, mother. Let's get there. Right, right, right. That's all I went to school. I was like, I'm going to be late, mother. Let's get there. Right, right, right. That's all I have to offer. You're like, well, no, we have plenty of time. Like, well, is your watch set to the atomic clock like mine is?

Because we are behind. We have to go. But it's funny. I also wore a wristwatch too. I was one of those nerdy kids who just liked to have a watch. Or be like an actually type kid. We should actually go into recess because it's like or be like a um actually type kid we're like uh we should actually go into recess because it's already like 1 30 they did not were you a roller

backpack kid no rollie bags came out my junior year of high school that's like when we hit peak rollie bag i'm a old i'm an elder so the earliest people that i remember there was this one girl i went to school with libby she i remember she hurt her remember she hurt her back playing in the yard or whatever. And the doctor told her she couldn't wear a backpack. So she had a travel suitcase that she would bring around. That's so funny. And to us, we were like, that was the OG. Rolly bag was just bringing a travel suitcase around.

I have thought about doing that at the grocery store before I got a car. I was this close to bringing just a suitcase to the grocery store. I love the efficiency. I love the efficiency. I love the efficiency. So Gaia, wait. So I love that you're like, you'd be great to have an alarm clock. Me, myself, don't have one,

but I think it would be fantastic. I love the sort of paradoxical relationship we all have with these kinds of things. We're like, that's what I need. Don't have one yet, but I feel it's something that could definitely help me. Her name is Gaia, Mother Earth. She wakes up with the sun, okay?

Calm down. I do wake up with the sun, but not because I want to, because I have to. Okay, cool. Well, let's take a quick break, and we'll be right back to talk about some really cool Catholic fashion trends coming out of Rome right after this. really cool Catholic fashion trends coming out of Rome right after this. It was December 2019 when the story blew up. In Green Bay, Wisconsin, former Packers star Kabir Bajabiamila caught up in a bizarre situation. KGB explaining what he believes led to the arrest of his friends at a children's Christmas play. A family man, former NFL player, devout Christian,

now cut off from his family and connected to a strange arrest. I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite. I got swept up in Kabir's journey, but this was only the beginning. In a story about faith and football, the search for meaning away from the gridiron, and the consequences for everyone involved. You mix homesteading with guns and church, and then a little bit of the spice of conspiracy theories that we liked. Voila! You got straight away. I felt like I was living in North Korea, but worse, if that's possible. Listen to Spiraled on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

When you think of Mexican culture, you think of avocado, mariachi, delicious cuisine, and of course, lucha libre. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment. Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Santos! Santos! Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you stream podcasts. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach, it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share what the science really shows, that we're surprisingly more united than most people think. We all know something is wrong in our culture,

in our politics, and that we need to do better and that we can do better. With the help of Stanford psychologist, Jamil Zaki. It's really tragic. If cynicism were a pill, it'd be a poison. We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with, are more generous than we assume. My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot of us are actually looking for a way to disagree and still be in a relationship

with each other. All that on the Happiness Lab. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Over the weekend. Oh, we're back. Sorry. I'm rusty, folks. I've been on paternal leave, parental leave, and this is my first. I've been on paternal leave, parental leave.

And I've this is my first time speaking with people over the age of like seven weeks old. So this is helping me a lot as I slowly get back into this. We're back. But I want to get into our first story. So over the weekend, there was a huge splash on social media when an image of the Pope wearing a puffy white jacket came out. huge splash on social media when an image of the pope wearing a puffy white jacket came out and it was the talk of many text threads and conversations between people i know who are catholic and their catholic parents who were like see he's pretty cool check him out but turns out it was an ai generated image which left many people sort of like in genuine shock. And this like sort of journey of this image was it was first posted to the mid journey AI subreddit. And from there, you know, I think if anyone knew where it was, you go, Oh, this is posted in the place where people are posting AI generated images.

But there, there is a Reddit to Twitter pipeline that most people aren't maybe aren't aware of, or a lot of the content just gets ripped and then put on Twitter immediately, sometimes with no context or whatever. And then many people were like, what is going on here? The Pope looks fantastic. Or is he really wearing all that? But I think with anything, if you weren't looking on Twitter, and you kind of looked at a bigger image, you could kind of see that there were some inconsistencies about just, you know, physics or like light or what kind of crucifix even the Pope would wear. But I was curious if you all saw this picture and what your own evolution of thoughts was with this. I saw it and I didn't think any thoughts. I just retweeted my friend's tweet that said

dope Francis because I thought that was cool. And I also want to add some, that was at Beth Borden. And then I also want to add some important context. She responded to her tweet with a comment from Reddit that was like, my psalms are sweaty. Knees, weak cross is heavy.

Last supper is ready. It's Lord spaghetti by LeBron James Johnson reddit so um i didn't think any thoughts i guess i don't have enough catholic friends i was just like that's a funny joke and i retweeted it because like what he's wearing has no effect on any policies or any real thing so i was like this is dumb but then later i was like oh yeah i do need to look at images more closely to know if they're ai but eventually it's going to get to a point where we won't know. Yeah. I mean, this,

this kind of goes along with just like in the last week, there was like Elon Musk holding hands with AOC or Trump getting arrested. And like, there's one of Macron also. There's a lot of Trump make out. Yeah. Yeah. And like,

and with Trump, we know like that man is not dynamic enough to ever cause a motion blur in a, image. So I was like, this is AI. My man is not my man is not that spry. Okay. But again, with like a lot of people were saying that, like some there's a maybe a reason why some people were quick to at first quite possibly believe that this was real, because apparently there's a group of people that think that he, like the Pope is like very stylish and that there were rumors going around that he was like wearing designer loafers that the Vatican had to debunk because people were like, well, it's Rome. It's like fashion is everywhere. And like, why wouldn't he? And then while others were just like, I think it just goes part in parcel with like people's celebrity worship or the idea that just like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's I believe that I buy that. Or because how oversaturated even images of celebrities look that these A.I. sort of imitations are just sort of hitting off, ticking all these boxes visually that are sort of our guards come down. Gaia, what are your thoughts on on Dope Francis?

Well, it's interesting. I missed it. So sometimes I'm not inconsistent. I actually follow what I preach. So I try not to spend too much time on Twitter. So I didn't see it. But I agree with what you said, basically. I mean, this is going to be perfect. I mean, right now people can tell it's AI, but it's just a matter of time.

And then the question is, how do you decide what's reality and what's real and what's not, which has been an issue for quite a while with words. But once you get into pictures, when you lose, when artificial intelligence gets perfect, like chat GPT will get perfect, that's when we really, really have a problem.

Right. This is the image, Gaia, of just of him in this like puffy jacket oh wow so this because it was so fashionable everyone was like oh we love this we love this and again like you're saying guy like it's imperfect right now and many people pointed out these imperfections like like hands we've seen that like all these ai have real trouble rendering like hands and legs like the Trump arrest thing. Like he had like he was like a quadruped like in that image.

And then a lot of like other religious people were like, that is not the kind of crucifix the pope would wear if they look at that. Or even like the way the glasses frames were blending into the shadow of it were like very, you know, keen eyed people saw it. it were like very you know keen-eyed people saw it but for most people who are just looking at an image like this on twitter or like on a passive scroll like to your point when they really dial things in it's truly gonna like the amount of like reckon reconciliation that has to happen in your brain to be like what am i looking at is definitely going to increase yeah and i guess when you think about it like what what is the damage I know there's some laws to regulate, you know, pornography deepfakes in some states, not many of them, but there are all kinds of other harms that can be caused by just, you know, showing somebody in a place they would never wear or where they're not supposed to be with somebody they're not supposed to be with. And I'm not sure. It might, again, take years until something is done about that. Right. I wanted to ask your thoughts because you are in law and so accoladed within it. What about the ramifications for court-based evidence? Already the justice system is so

flawed. How are we going to, you know, voicemail, voice notes, calls, images, all of these are used as evidence. How do we know what's going to be real and what's going to be presented to a jury? Right. So, but with every kind of evidence, there's always an analysis. You know, for example, when we started getting DNA evidence, it took a while until it was accepted. The problem here is photographs are already accepted as evidence. Exactly. So you have to decide how you treat it you sort of do you start treating it as less reliable and that's confusing right yeah that's only so that suddenly it's like i'm sorry this video evidence is just not reliable because our ability to fake everything and it could absolutely be something that would you know

absolve someone of of guilt or you know convict someone. This voicemail of Joe Biden saying the N-word on a call. Oh, is that the newest one? No, like all the deepfake voices of the presidents. They had him singing rap lyrics, and it sounds like him. All of the AI voice. They have a lot of gamer videos of Trump and Biden and Obama playing video games together and using their voices you know what i mean like yeah to talk shit to each other during a gameplay

content i never wanted but i did hear one of a deep fake trump and the one thing i was like they can't get his cadence right like the tone of voice was right but his way his manner of speaking was like good luck for the person who has to like program the nuances of voice was right but his way his manner of speaking was like good luck for the person who has to like program the nuances of that speech to like into an algorithm because that's yeah the biden one was like it was uh there were tiktoks of boomers being scared by their like millennial and gen z kids like hearing biden like say the n-word and say all this like crazy stuff and they were like oh my goodness like the propaganda for election campaigns like by the time for this image for example like everybody saw it and then

no one saw the follow-up story you know that happens all the time when even you know human generated inaccurate headlines are produced and then people don't see the corrections like the damage is already done so what do we do then? Yeah. Slippery slope. But I mean, it sounds like, yeah, like as of now, you can kind of, you can kind of tell because it looks like

a trippy oil painting still. If you look real close, the skin's always shinier than it has to be. But yeah. That's actually how I look in pictures. It's just like a

trippy oil painting. And we know algorithms teach themselves, so they will learn eventually how to look perfectly. It's really a matter of time and not a lot of time until Trump will be perfect. Right. Yeah, it really is a very interesting time because things feel like they're just accelerating now to speed.

The 90s, you're like, yeah, man, you heard of CD-ROM? And then it's like, you don't need the caddy anymore. You can insert the CD disc straight in. That was like three years of time. And now we're going from like, hey, you can swap faces on Snapchat to like, you hear Joe Biden say the N-word on this phone call. And you're like, what? How? It's kind of interesting how we like, we'll be reverting to like non-technical stuff because talking to that professor about the AI writing the essays, the only foolproof way of making sure people don't cheat is like, because you can try to get more localized and specific with the topics. But eventually, it's going to get to a point where you have to just like watch them write the essay in front of you on paper.

You know what I mean? Right. And that's like reverting back to when we didn't have it. Like we use the technology so much, it's irresponsible. Now we don't get to use it anymore. I think there'll be some advantages. I've been sitting in classrooms teaching students on Wi-Fi for a while, and I never understood why I have to compete against the internet.

Why? Well, I'm talking. Everybody can be shopping on Instagram. And actually, if you cut down the Wi-Fi, which is how people have to do exams so they won't be able to cheat and they'll have secure systems and their computers, that might be a place we should have gone earlier. Right. Yeah, it is true. I mean, like, I remember when I got to college, like, this was, this was like the beginning of laptops being just, you know, ubiquitous, like they were everywhere. And I remember, like, the first time I popped my laptop open in my uh spanish and iberian history class i was looking at nonsense and i hadn't was

absolutely just missed the entire lesson because i was so amazed but i was like yeah i can do i can multitask quote unquote but really i was absolutely just distracting myself yeah and doing virtual school here in new york city i mean were saying, how am I supposed to study? Everybody's playing games on their computers. I'm just watching the kid next to me on the game. Right. Well, this next story, I think, is really interesting because we're talking about just sort of the speed

at which we're moving towards, like, not needing human interaction really anymore. You know, virtual reality or VR, as I remember it in the 90s, was a real hook for people that were really interested in technology. You know, like it was in film and TV and video games and like sort of gave us this idea of like a world

where all you had to put on was a goofy looking helmet. And now you are experiencing a new reality. And it was like, I get that from that time, we're like, wow, the ability of computers is fantastic. This could really be something. Anyway, fast forward to now, where no one is interested in wearing a helmet to use Google Docs or living on a beach digitally or whatever. Yet a lot of the big tech companies are insisting that it's the wave of the future. big tech companies are insisting that it's the wave of the future. Specifically, you know, Mark Zuckerberg completely took a big swing with the metaverse and ended up being not what he thought it was going to be. Because again, this was like a weird way from the way he saw it is like, this is a new way for people to work and toil. And I think most people who are on that side of the equation were like, no, don't don't want that at all. Actually, I'm fine with the way we're doing it. I'm actually less distracted without having to put on a VR headset

and be in some emoji or avatar-based meeting or something like that. And now Apple is just, they're going full steam ahead with their mixed reality headset. And people that have worked on the product are giving some insight now to how the internal design team thinks it's going to be. And it's not great. Quote, some company insiders have been wondering if the upcoming headset is a solution in search of a problem. Sources told the media outlet that, quote, unlike the iPod, which put digital songs in people's pockets and the iPhone, which combined the abilities of a music player and a phone, the headset hasn't been driven by the same clarity. And I can totally see that.

I mean, not only that, it sounds like there are numerous like deserters of the project who are working on it, like at Apple, because they just felt that the end product wasn't going to live up to like what they think it's going to be. While like other people have been fired because, you know, they failed to make certain features work. It's just when you look at it right now, we're in a landscape where this is not necessarily a booming market. Like Meta has had to slash the price of their top tier $1,500 headset by a third to try and entice people. This Apple headset, you know how much it's rumored to be? $3,000. They are not going to Google Glass us. I am sorry. That is not happening. I get that the Apple fans out there, they might be like, oh yeah, I got it yesterday. But again, this does feel like this weird thing where I'm not really sure how this is making anything easier or

what the novelty is going to be. And it just feels like, again, like with all of our technology, if we're like, if in this world where maybe people were using VR more, I'd imagine we're just going to increasingly like more one-dimensional forms of communication without much real human contact. You know, it's hard to say. It's hard to say what's happening,

like what happened with videos. Like for decades, people were saying we're going to have video conferencing and everything will be on video and nothing happened until quite recently, really until the pandemic, I would say nobody was really doing it. And I wonder if this is just some kind of delay and eventually they will find a way to do it. I mean, I was worried about that.

I was thinking, I mean, not only in our screens all the time, if we're completely in a different reality, there'll be no interaction between us whatsoever. But so I guess I'm relieved that this is delayed, but I'm not sure if we're delayed forever. Right. So do you think in a way, right, if in like the very cynical version is like, we're on this very increasingly intense path where technology is going to make things easier or whatever or communication streamlined, which really means less human interaction. And because of maybe that feeling of isolation, these headsets are going to offer us some feeling of like humanity again. Is that like maybe where it's going to like the hook point will return for it? Like, hey, remember when you used to see people put this headset on? will return for it they're like hey remember when you used to see people put this headset on i feel like this is i mean that's why it was invented is because of like rich people's

playgrounds right like they are isolated and they feel weird and so they're like how are we going to perform our manhunts on islands during the next pandemic you know what i mean let's go vr with it but if you've ever used a vr headset like i've played i've done like games like at arcades and stuff with, and it like, it literally makes me throw up. Like some of them have been such unpleasant experiences, like fake roller coasters and stuff that I got like really sick after in a way that I never had gotten on like real roller coasters.

You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm like, some of it just feels, I'm like some of it just feels i feel like some of it could be used in guantanamo is what i'm saying like i feel like that's where this is gonna be weaponized eventually for true yeah for true psychological terror ops for yeah uh but guy like so how do you sort of see it evolving because like i think from our perspective right now is we see it coming from like a like an employer class that goes like this is the future of work you know that's how meta was sort of sort of centering the metaverse in the beginning was like this is going to replace how you meet and how teams interact and things like that and most

workers were like no that's this sounds like added sort of like added intensity or a level of connection that isn't necessary given that we're able to to work together online but how do you sort of see this evolution happening where we're like we're like yeah guess what everybody's got one of these now so you know i thought this was heading this way i was actually if you'd asked me you know six months ago a year ago i was sure this together with small we're connected everywhere and our phone is used for everything, is where we're headed. So I am surprised. I'm always wondering if what happened here is that people were somehow struck by the pandemic because they sort of felt, you know, there were lockdowns, they were at home.

They felt what it means to be on the screen all the time, not seeing people. They felt how their bodies felt. They felt how their minds felt. And maybe they're realizing more than before. Because when I was speaking before the pandemic to people, it was mostly parents who were worried. And something has shifted. So I'm wondering if that's part of it. I'm wondering if it's technological issues or it's partly how people feel about it.

And I really, really hope it's the latter. I feel like at the end of the day, we are people and we need human connection and our brains will explode if we don't have that. You know, we have access to all of these technologies, but at the same time, people really wanted to just go to restaurants during the pandemic and eat together right yeah and hear like human laughter and i remember so much how i longed to like eat with a group of people like you know like eat off someone's plate like let me try that you know yeah to like get a hug from someone you know oh man that early days i burst into tears i was doing like turn away hugs from like my grandfather and stuff like wearing all this PPE. It was like, Oh, you got to go man. You almost 90. Like, yeah, mess around. But again, it's true. Like, and we'll get into this. After the break, we talked a little

bit about your book guide, because I do feel like we are in this experience as people where the technology is making our lives easier. And for the record, everyone like we're all no one here is like hates technology. But the thing that we're up against now is like, we're starting to see how it's eroding at these like little things and increasing this feeling of alienation. And yet we still are using it.

Like we just can't quit it. And your book sort of gets to the crux of that feeling. We'll talk about that right after the break. We'll be right back. It was December 2019 when the story blew up. In Green Bay, Wisconsin, former Packers star Kabir Bajabiamila caught up in a bizarre situation. KGB explaining what he believes led to the arrest of his friends at a children's Christmas play. A family man, former NFL player, devout Christian, now cut off from his family

and connected to a strange arrest. I am going to share my journey of how I went from Christianity to now a Hebrew Israelite. I got swept up in Kabir's journey, but this was only the beginning. In a story about faith and football, the search for meaning away from the gridiron and the consequences for everyone involved. You mix homesteading with guns and church and a little bit of the spice of conspiracy theories that we liked.

Voila! You got straight away. I felt like I was living in North Korea, but worse, if that's possible. Listen to Spiraled on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It doesn't get more Mexican than this. Lucha Libre is known globally because it is much more than just a sport and much more than just entertainment. Lucha Libre is a type of storytelling. It's a dance. It's tradition.

It's culture. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask, a 12-episode podcast in both English and Spanish about the history and cultural richness of Lucha Libre. And I'm your host, Santos Escobar, the emperor of Lucha Libre and a WWE superstar. Join me as we learn more about the history behind this spectacular sport from its inception in the United States to how it became a global symbol of Mexican culture. We'll learn more about some of the most iconic heroes in the ring. This is Lucha Libre Behind the Mask. Listen to Lucha Libre Behind the Mask as part of My Cultura Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you stream podcasts. I'm Dr. Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast. As the U.S. elections approach,

it can feel like we're angrier and more divided than ever. But in a new, hopeful season of my podcast, I'll share what the science really shows, that we're surprisingly more united than most people think. We all know something is wrong in our culture, in our politics, and that we need to do better and that we can do better. With the help of Stanford psychologist Jamil Zaki. It's really tragic. If cynicism were a pill, it'd be a poison. We'll see that our fellow humans, even those we disagree with, are more generous than we

assume. My assumption, my feeling, my hunch is that a lot of us are actually looking for a way to disagree and still be in relationships with each other. All that on the Happiness Lab. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. So, you know, talking about your book, Gaia, Unwired, you know, basically gaining control over addictive technologies. It really struck me just because, again, for many younger people, like the allure of the smartphone isn't an obscure phenomenon.

Like we talk constantly about unplugging and the benefits it's had on our own mental health, like just anecdotally amongst ourselves. health, like just anecdotally amongst ourselves, your book addresses sort of one of the main, I feel like cycles of emotions many of us have in relation to using screens where like we get motivated to use the screen less. And then we're like, oh, this feels great. Then we are sucked right back in and we feel like shit. And it feels like, like we kind of come down to like, I don't know. It's wild. Like I just lack the self-control. It's sort of like the, the, the final sort of sentiment It's sort of like the final sort of sentiment people land on in like grappling with technologies. As a new parent too, I'm just, again, very aware about screen time. And I also feel that like there's a certain futility around

it too with a lot of parents where they're like, I don't know, you know, sooner or later, it's just going to be normal for them. And maybe I'm trying to delay the inevitable, but it also, I've seen how much it can help, you know, put a kid at ease and allow somebody to do something else. Where do you feel like parents and people kind of fit into this mix where we're like, the world is spinning around us and we're like, am I bad?

Or what is happening? Like, are our brains meant for this? Or are we up against something a little bit more intense than we realized? I think we're in an interesting place right now because we have a lot of information. We have lots of information from whistleblowers, from the tech companies, telling us how tech companies are addicting us to keep us online for longer. But still, we keep blaming ourselves.

We keep thinking it's our fault and we're unable to stop spending time online. We blame our kids. We blame our families. The problem is that that's exactly what the tech companies want us to do. And that's why they're giving us all these tools to make us feel like we're in control. us all these tools to make us feel like we're in control. So once the evidence came out that it's stuff that they're trying to addict us, they gave us these digital wellbeing tools, you know, everybody who has an iPhone has this, uh, screen time, so you know how much time you're

online, or you can even limit the time on your app so you can make your phone gray. Or there are one, you can put warnings on instagram and not to talk about parent parental controls which are getting more and more complicated and but the thing is these are just there so we all feel like we are doing something but they're not really there to make us succeed because they do not really change the most addictive features in our devices or in our apps. They are just there. So we will think that it is our fault, exactly like you were describing. And again, how in this world, right, if we're pivoting from it's not us because it's like, you know, you've likened it to like the tobacco industry. We're pivoting from it's not us because it's like, you know, you've likened it to like the tobacco industry. We're like, they know, they know it.

They know it bad for everybody. But then the gaslighting starts and it's like, I don't know about that. I mean, we know what's going on, but we're not going to actually cop to it. Do you see like a similar evolution where on some level? I mean, because I feel like if anything, like you're saying, like the markets and capitalism are a very good way of shielding themselves from like having the profits go down. So they'll find a way, like you're saying, to be like, no, no, you actually have control. It's not the other things that were just identified clear as day by someone working on it. You have control now. You know, what does that sort of battle look like? I think we're fighting the battle in the

wrong place now. We're fighting with ourselves. We're fighting with our families. I think we're fighting the battle in the wrong place now. We're fighting with ourselves. We're fighting with our families. I think we have to shift to the public sphere. And it is already happening. There's lots of action already taking place. There are parents suing social media for addicting their kids, causing mental harm, parents suing gay manufacturers. There are things happening.

But I think people have to understand it's not just for lawyers. It's for everybody because everybody can shift what they're doing to the collective sphere. Parents can go to schools. They have an influence about what schools are doing. Schools are now maximizing technology in the classroom because that's the federal policy.

Well, this could be changed. You can decide whether something is useful in the classroom, if certain technology is useful or not. You can decide whether you want the kids to be on their cell phones during recess instead of talking to each other. So there's spaces where you can change things. And you can change things and you can change norms some things you're saying you know maybe it's already happening but the new norms evolving

every day which are making it worse i was on vacation with my kids and there was a family in the pool and my son was calling me to look at this there were two girls i think nine and eleven and their parents gave them these plastic pads to put the iPhones inside so they can use the iPhones in the pool instead of playing. Now, you know, this is an evolving trend. Just like a few years ago, it started to evolve, take the kids out with iPads to a restaurant. Now so many people are doing it. So there are ways to,

I think things are going to change. I think there's going to be lots of legal action and tech companies will be restricted in what they could do, but it will take some years. So people can do things as business owners. I mean, in New York City, all the airports,

if you go to an airport, there are four iPads on every table. There is no way you could have a conversation there. So this is architecture for overuse. You can change. If you own a restaurant, you can change. You don't have to use iPads. You don't have to use QR codes.

So people take out their phones the moment they sit down. So I think there are lots, once people are aware, there are lots of things they can do until things change. And I do believe they're already starting to change. Have you heard of like the third spaces concept or theory about how there needs to be a place for people outside of like work and the home for them to gather and to exchange information and basically develop culture. I think a lot of people are saying that the phones are now teenagers and kids' third spaces because a lot of other third spaces

have become unsafe and inaccessible to them. For example, my friend posted about how in New York, when she was growing up, it became illegal for kids under 18 to go hang out at the mall. And apparently that's a thing that's been happening a lot. Whereas when I was growing up, that's where we would go and hang out with our friends. We'd go to the mall, we'd hang out, we'd go to Jamba Juice. I'd try not to leave the bookstore with too many purchases you know like you you'd hang out but now it's considered like loitering or whatever like a lot of these external places that are

meant for cultural exchange and you know kids to grow up are becoming unavailable to them and also honestly with like mass shootings and all of that like people get more scared of going out in public and it seems to be safer to have them just like inside on their phones, which it isn't necessarily, you know, there are other risks with that. So I think it would be, I like how you highlighted it, that it's going to be an effort on these places and these people who are in charge of those areas,

because it really does require cooperation between them and between the companies that are like forcing their technology on people. Yeah and I think a lot municipalities can do a lot because they can create spaces for people to hang out in for kids to walk to if you have places to be together it's very different than if you go home after school and sit in your bedroom with your phone because the statistics are quite shocking. I mean, kids are meeting, I think, 50% less than they used to be in the 80s and partying, I think, 33% less. So basically, they're not getting together. So you can, by design, create spaces for people to get together.

So, I mean, if you think about bars that have no cigarettes today, this seems so implausible, you know, before it happened. And things look different now. Can you think about a bar without every person having their phone next to them? Yeah, it feels like in a way, like almost futile to try and reverse things.

Like in a way, because like, for example, one of the last concerts I went to, like amazing show. And there are people experiencing the concert through their cell phone. I hate that so much. Like watching the recording. That is such a pet peeve of mine. I saw Tom Petty in person and I was in like the first or second row. And this girl next to me literally was on her phone and she was like, oh my God, this is such a great song to delete pictures to.

And I was like, Tom Petty is on stage right now. Right. Or that we've lost the ability, even like like with the example of people like in a pool, right? Like that swimming isn't enough on some level that like the, just being able to play in the water is not like stimulating enough that we're now adding like, well, what if we augmented that with some like audio visual stuff too, that I'm like, cause again, I think this is what feels difficult for, for people like even myself. I was, I remember when I got my last vaccination, I forgot my phone in the car. And then when you go in there, you got to wait like 20 minutes after

like for them just to chill out. And I was like, first I was panicked. Cause I'm like, I haven't had to wait without my phone in ages. And I, there was a moment of sincere, like fear, not fear, but like I was, I became uneasy and I didn't like that. I felt so disarmed to just exist in a space without a fucking screen to look at. And it was funny because I sat down in the chair, like in the, you know, pain relief medicine aisle. And I was just doing, I felt like a kid again. I was like, I'm like reading all the labels. No, I'm just like, I'm gonna read all the labels. If I got,

if I got 20 minutes to kill, I'm going to start reading labels and just start being in my own thoughts again. And it was interesting how foreign that felt to me, even though I was, you know, I was born in the eighties, like I'm an older millennial. I grew up in the pre-internet time too, which felt like the most, like all humans are probably wired to want to do this and connect to other people. But we've definitely, it's become so normal that to the point where feeling human feels foreign. And that's what's really scary to me.

Well, I don't think we're going to go back in time, but I think we can balance things better. Imagine if you went to a concert and the concert hall said no phones. So nobody could take out their phones to take pictures maybe the phones will be in their bags that is changing the norms in a way that could be done and i think it will affect everybody but i guess like in there right there's an argument to say like well if someone actually needed to contact me during it then that would be like why would how would like how do you find a way that makes it?

So it's not just sort of like across the board, no phones, but we're able to like, I guess that's the hard part. There are benefits. No phones for taking pictures of the show. You can have your phone with you, but if you raise a phone,

someone will be like, Hey, yeah, that's true. At museums, they do that too. Like I tried to take a picture of a painting recently and they're like no no no yeah but it's also like that painting is gonna be online nobody's gonna take like i don't need to take a picture of that painting yeah one

thing that helped me is like literally spending more time with people and like making an effort to do that to like leave my home and go spend time with people i'm trying to do that like once a day because i work remotely and then the other thing is like I have dogs and when I walk them, one of them's a little monster and he will try to eat stuff. And so I have to like pay attention. And now I'm like, I know where all the good sticks are. You know, I know where all the great grass is. I'm like going back to when I was a kid and I was just outside playing with my dogs. And it's so nice to take a walk outside when it's sunny here in LA and be with my pets, you know, and talk to people who have pets and connect with

them that way, you know, so having things and people around you that take you out of your head and like give you an external like grounding to community is so important. That's why I love like mutual aid and like physical activities that like help with community things because that really nourishes a part of you that cannot be nourished in the same way through a screen. Yeah. I've like in the same way, like walking around my neighborhood and doing the unthinkable of talking to a stranger has been the one thing that I felt really balances things out because there was, I saw a recent study that like the people have a sincere fear of small talk falling apart and like they like people just have

an eighth sense like that if people begin small talk and the conversation goes south that it's suddenly on them and like people get their own anxiety of not being able to like keep up small talk which is wild because on sometimes you're just exchanging pleasantries and it doesn't have to be more than that. But I feel like there's like these certain small things you can be doing, but at the same time, we're developing like also bad habits around how we communicate too. It's also crazy because everybody has a podcast. So how are they scared of small talk? Yeah, that's true. Sorry, Guy, I interrupted you. I was saying it's also bad for people's well-being because there are studies which are showing that people's happiness is not just about a long-term relationship but also about his most small interactions exactly the small talk this eye contact and a smile that really changed the way

your brain works and makes you feel much better. And if you're not doing that, and if you're just walking in the street with your phone, looking at your pictures, answering texts, then you're missing all the opportunities, which somehow just makes you feel drained and tired and not good at the end of the day. Just when it comes to policy, i feel like there's a difficult path ahead you know i mean like we saw how seriously they took privacy in europe the u.s is a little bit behind a lot behind it's like say for maybe like california and a couple other places but like in just in the with the recent hearing on tiktok it so clear, at least in the narrow context of that hearing, they just weren't even able or willing to discuss the broader problems with social media.

And it became sort of this very TikTok-specific thing, while we've seen, to your point, whistleblowers at Facebook, etc., say, these are real issues. They've had hearings, but then we're not quite seeing the follow through. What, you know, what kind of like policy proposals are out there? Do you think are would actually benefit people in a way that sort of gets to the heart of, you know, like our overuse of technology, obviously knowing the parts that it's helped make things easier for us, but also addressing like the bigger issues of, you you know feeling increasingly isolated and things like that yeah so i think first of all the issue with tiktok is complicated because it just brings out completely different issues related to china and it just yeah it's sort of murking

the whole debate yeah but there have been a lot of bills both both federal and state, trying to get, first of all, the addictive features of the phones because there are some features on our phones which are really up to no good. What are those? Wait, is that the flashlight? The flashlight is actually okay. The flashlight is useful.

Okay, okay. But, you know, for example, streaks on Snapchat. Yeah. They are there for nothing but to get you to go back to the platform. So kids have to send, kids, I don't think many adults use it, but, you know, they have to send a streak to their friend. And if they get one within 24 hours, they've established a streak

and they keep accumulating them. And then they have a number. Let's say 134, they have special badges and they have older friends going to the number of streaks. Now, there's no requirement for any content in these streaks. You just have to make sure you send it. Why? Because you go to Snapchat and you see the ads. And if the kids miss a day, they lose everything and they lose all their friends and that's why they get so upset when the parents take away their phone because they

for them it's a huge thing so all these these kinds of features like snap switch you have just there to make you go back to the app or the device are not needed. And there are builds which are trying to outlaw these kinds of features. Of course, the problem is they'll always come with new ones because the whole business model is based on our time and our data. They need us to be there for as long as possible so they can collect more data on us, so they can target advertising at us. And again, we have to be there for longer so as possible so they can collect more data on us, so they can target advertising at us. And again, we have to be there for longer so we can see the ads.

So that's why I think it's not just one thing, not just one law, not just one wonderful Supreme Court case. It's not going to happen like that. It's going to happen from a mixture of things that are going to happen, like you have the antitrust lawsuits against big tech. to happen, like you have the antitrust losses against big tech. That's if, for example, the merger between them, right now Meta owns Facebook, it owns WhatsApp, owns Instagram.

If they're broken up and there's more innovation, more competition, we might see different business models, which are not based on our time. So that's another thing that's happening. I think, as I said earlier, I think the policy about maximizing technology in the school has to change because if Minecraft is homework, then how can you prevent your kid from playing Minecraft at home? There are, so there are lots of them. And then there's class actions.

And if you look back, it's cigarettes, you know. We know cigarettes are bad. But it took decades to change things. It took class actions and it took advertising and it took warnings. And this is going to be the same. It will take a lot of things at the same time. For example, let's say we have ratings for addictiveness. You know, so many parents download games for their kids thinking,

oh, Minecraft is an educational game. If they could see before they download this high rating for addictiveness, they may not do that. But not only that that the games company may change the game because they want people to download the game so they might take the addictive features out by themselves so it's a matter of pressuring from many directions to move things right and when and like when you talk about cigarettes i know like the earlier studies or like maybe in like the 50s where they knew.

Where do you think we are? The first studies come out like, oh, it's bad. Are we close to like the truth.com era of like anti-smoking ads or are we like a decade away? How I mean, I guess with now everything is moving faster. So maybe what took, you know, decades before might take seven years. I don't know. Well, I think what changed with cigarettes, you're right, the first studies came out in the 50s, 1964.

The Surgeon General announced it's a health hazard. It's amazing it took so long considering how bad cigarettes are. Right. But from then on, we saw advertising, we saw warnings. Things took a while, but it started shifting. Our problem is right now, we are still in the science wars we do not have you know big governmental organizations saying this is bad especially for children where the evidence is in we just have partial recommendations for small kids about screens i think we have we have so much data over the last two or three years

that I think we're at a place where medical organizations, governmental entities can make these proclamations. And from that moment on, policy can proceed faster. And we already have a lot of action in place. So I hope that, yeah,

things will move faster than with cigarettes. I think it will take some years. And that's why I think it's so important what people do in their communities, how they change their business norms, how they change their schools. Because things have to happen at the same time. Otherwise, it affects all of us, not to mention a whole generation of kids already in front of screens for decades, plus the pandemic. It's interesting that you were talking about this now because 10 years ago when I was in college, people were failing out of a very great college for Minecraft.

It was a joke about how many students would fail because of their addiction to Minecraft specifically. So it's interesting that you use that and that they haven't really changed much, it seems like, in the last, you know, decade. Yeah, why change? It's a winning formula. And what do you kind of say?

Because, like, to, you know, people that are frustrated, parents that are frustrated, who are like, am I fucking up? Like, am I bad? What would you say to Miles? My kid is too young, although he loves the Sopranos. I'm going to say that whenever he turns his head, I'm like, I don't know, must be the lights or the mom.

But like, what do you I mean, because I think, again, there is this feeling of like it feels so personal that too when you talk to other parents about scream time like hey what the fuck do you want me to do man like it's I got a lot going on this is this this works and I get that there is this internal sense of like responsibility but then feeling helpless because there is like a what am I going to do thing what do you say to people who are sort of like in that mental space and like how to sort of emerge from that or at least to begin to look at the situation with a little more like context so i'll start with you miles since you have a very small baby so i think i for you it's easy because you can just decide not to give your baby screen the

studies are in the smaller child where the baby is the worse it is. And you have control. And I think people have a lot of control all the way through elementary school. So I think parents can really limit kids' screen time. The issue becomes when they get to middle school because social life is in social networks and you can't really isolate your child. And that's when it becomes a problem. And you can do things in the meantime you can model i mean i try when i'm home and all my kids are here so i don't have to worry i try to put the phone somewhere away from me and so you can do things and you can do small things for yourself you know again when i work because i I am, as I mentioned, I'm as addicted as all of us, despite everything I know, I always put my phone on 20 minutes timer and I write for 20 minutes and then I check my emails and I do this again. There are things you can do.

And you can also, kids remember the pandemic. They remember how they felt. So you can talk to remind them how they felt horrible in that time and how they felt much better when they saw people. So you can make a difference. You cannot force an older kid not to do that. It's not going to work. I mean, and also they're smarter than us.

With technology, they'll always beat us. It's not going to happen. So I think it's a combination of doing what you can and... While also realizing the broader situation too. Right, not blaming yourself is the most important thing because that is the problem now. That people are sitting there and thinking it's all their fault. Right.

We're like in the plastic straws debate where we're like, actually what about no it can't be down to my level what about the companies that are actually the ones that are steering all of this and i think that is an important thing to sort of recenter like in the in the conversation i have um a couple comments to make on that i do think that like watching kids because i i tutor a lot of kids and like watching them i feel like overall with technology, just like with life, like you, you really do have to like raise them the way that you think you should raise them and then try to be as involved as you can without being overbearing and allow

them to like make their mistakes. And then you kind of have to hope that like those values that you pass on to them guide their use of technology as well and that they come to you when they're scared or they like need help with something. It seems like to me, I'm not a I'm a parent to dogs, so I don't have to worry about this. But we did watch the puppy bowl and they were addicted. But also, the other thing is you're talking about how you don't have to worry about it with smaller children. But FaceTime is how I stay connected with my nephew. And I know plenty of people that purposefully like FaceTime family members, like their infant children, just so that they hear the voice, they see the face.

Then they start associating that face with the screen, you know, with the good feelings with the screen. But that's the only way like I can keep in touch with him because it's such a long distance. And I know that's the only way like I can keep in touch with him because he's, it's such a long distance. And I know that's slightly different than games and stuff, but I also worry, I worry about that,

you know? I think it's a great example because it's important to also remember that not all screen is made alike. I think, you know, connecting with people over FaceTime is a great thing, especially relatives who live away, you know, being able to read the New York Times or any news is different.

The problem becomes when you're selling things as educational games and people are playing them and they get all these dopamine bursts from playing or social networks. You get the dopamine bursts from the comments and the likes. So there's a big difference between games and social networks, you get the dopamine burst from the comments and the likes. So there's a big difference between games and social networks, or YouTube, where the one short video ends and the next one starts. And talking to grandma on FaceTime. Yeah, okay. That makes me feel better. Thank you.

Yeah, but I mean, these are all things, like you said like paula v like you have concerns like i was like talking to my dad on facetime who was like not able to see my son and for you and you i mean he's not really able like he can't my son can't see him or he's like actually associating all this too but to your point like how the beginnings of your relationship to the screen begins and and, you also mentioned this too, like, like not using the phone in front of the kids too, because I've seen my other friends do that where they're trying to say, like, I don't want my kid to think that when you're not doing something, you look at your phone or that that's, that's what is normal. Like you can be active or

you can do other things or you can like read a physical book. But some I've heard people say, like, I don't want my kids like early memories of like me being like i'm looking down at this like glowing rectangle and they begin to see that that is like sort of the most normal thing obviously you know we have to use our phones but i get that they're like it's all very subtle uh and how like kids begin to like see what's normal or not normal yeah and i think you know that yeah the studies show that parents who are heavy users their kids also have users of the phone on the other hand it's hard you know you're there but you're using a phone because you're texting your babysitters and you can't find a babysitter you're texting another so it's it's not so it's not

there's no perfect solution we're not living in a perfect world for this. So we can just try our best, but it's not, there's no easy way out right now. Right. I think that sums up so many of what we're experiencing in this present moment. Can I just say something that might help this story come full circle? Yes. I just saw an article that said Pablo Xavier, a 31 year old construction worker from the Chicago area said he was tripping on shrooms last week when he came up with the idea for Pope Francis's puffy

jacket. So he was out in the world tripping on drugs, experiencing community and nature and stuff. When he came up with it, the things that will do to your brain, you know, just small talk with people. But again, I think, yeah, important that we understand that it's like this very complex issue where it's such a double edged sword, where it's given us things like being able to connect with people when we need to and in ways that are much better than just like

talking over the phone or writing something. But at the same time, there's also this like commodified monetized, you know, use of technology that is purely built on extracting as much eyeball time from you as possible. And, you know, not reckoning with that is creating a bit of a slippery slope. But that's why I thank you so much, Professor Guy Bernstein for stopping by The Daily Zeitgeist. Where can people find you and your work and read more from you if they would like to? So my website is guybernstein.com and my book is available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, every place you would normally purchase your book. Fantastic. And thank you so much for having me. Oh, no, no, no. You classed up the joint with your expertise. And is there any work of social media or anything that you would like to point to that you were enjoying? If not, it's all good. I

get it. We're trying to get all the right word, but I've been looking, I'm Israeli and there's been lots going on. The protest. And my best friend sent me a video of her and thousands of women dressed as the Handmaid's Tale costume because there's a big constitutional reform attempt which will also undermine the rights of women, LGBTQ people. So I look at this video a lot and I'm happy to be able to see this video even though I was not there.

And I still wish I was there with everybody. Yeah, it shows you what a general strike can do too because I believe Netanyahu said he's going to delay that plan as a result of that. Hey, collectivism works, you know. General strikes, try them out, America. And Pallavi, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can people find you and follow you, see you, all that?

And what's the tweet that you like? I'm at Pallavi Ganalan everywhere. Good luck spelling that. I'm tired of spelling it out. I've been doing a lot of stand up lately. So come see me perform because I don't want to, as a content creator, have to post to Instagram every day so that a reel will pop up so I can just be on stage surrounded by people. I don't like that either, that I get punished for not posting everything all the time. I am so tired of it. I, uh, my favorite tweet,

have you seen Banshees of Inishirin? No. It's on my list, though. Oh, my God. It is so good. Yeah. But it's about a friendship falling out. And there was an image of the two main characters, you know, in that from that movie. And then someone tweeted, I just don't want to do laundry and taxes with you no more. It's about him breaking up his friendship.

And then someone else quote tweeted that with nothing, nowhere, never happening again. And I thought that was amazing. Nothing. No. And that was at Siena, Siena in Dublin and at runs with scissors.

All right. You can find me at miles of gray on Twitter and Instagram. I've been, I don't know anything, whatever I liked on. I haven't, I'm not, I haven't I haven't looked on I like all the messages people have sent me on Instagram

welcoming me back that has been fantastic I really appreciate all the listeners reaching out with your kind words and reminding me that I will know how to say footnotes when the time does come you can also find Jack and I on our basketball podcast milesandjack.madboosties

also I'm on 420 Day Fiance. We'll be coming back soon where Sophia Alexander and I talk about our favorite reality show, 90 Day Fiance. You can find us at Daily Zeitgeist on Twitter, at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We've got a Facebook fan page and a website, dailyzeitgeist.com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes. Probably be one time, footnotes. Footnotes? Thank you. episodes in our footnotes probably be one time footnote footnotes thank you uh where you can find you know the articles that we talked about as well as the song we are going to ride out on

what song is that oh well thank you for asking today we are going to go out on uh this track called grateful by l michaels affair with black dot rapping over it l michaels affair is a great band i love all their instrumental music black dot is the goat you know when he starts rhyming this track is really dope it's heavy if you like black thought you're gonna like this if you like hip-hop you gotta check this out even if you don't it's a good track it's called grateful uh which we are for sure l michaels affair and black dot uh that's gonna do it for us today we're gonna be back later with to tell you what's trending and then tomorrow with a whole new episode. So until

then, just so you know, this is a production of iHeartRadio so for more podcasts, check out the iHeartRadio app or Apple Podcasts, wherever you get them. Alright, talk to you then. Bye! In 1982, Atari players had one game on their minds. Sword Quest.

Because the company had promised 150 grand in prizes to four finalists, but the prizes disappeared, leading to one of the biggest controversies in 80s pop culture. I'm Jamie Loftus. Join me this spring for The Legend of Sword Quest. We'll follow the quest for lost treasure across four decades. Listen to The Legend of Sword Quest on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Bruce Bozzi.

On my podcast, Table for Two, we have unforgettable lunch after unforgettable lunch with the best guests you could possibly ask for. People like Matt Bomer, Emma Roberts, and Colin Jost. Did you say a Caesar salad with lobster? Yeah. Whoa. Our second season is airing right now,

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