The Daily Zeitgeist - Bias Bias Everywhere 4.08.22

Episode Date: April 8, 2022

In episode 1222, Miles and guest co-host Jacquis Neal are joined by author, science journalist, and speaker Jessica Nordell to discuss the subject of bias, discrimination and more! The End of Bias: A Beginning by Jessica Nordell jessicanordell.com LISTEN: Hazmelo Otra Vez by Bea PeleaSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me for I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry.

Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti and I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadson. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career.

That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the

making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's basketball. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio apps, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. Hello, Internet, and welcome to Season 231, Episode 5 of the Daily Zeitgeist. It's a production of iHeartRadio.

It's also the podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared, sordid consciousness. It's Friday, April 8th, 2022. That means it's National Empanada Day. So if you've got a favorite empanada spot, hit it up because it's Empanada Day. So if you've got a favorite empanada spot, hit it up because it's Empanada Day. Support your empanada empanaderos. Or if there's a real term for that, I just made that up. Forgive my broken Spanish.

But yes, love a good empanada. And I'm really, I didn't realize that today was such a blessed day. I'm Miles Gray, a.k.a. Pastry with Filling. Hunger is killing. Let's go smash some tapas bites while listening to Daily Zites. Say it ain't so.

The flakiest dough. Cheesy beef snacks. Carry me. Ampa na-da-na-da-na-da-da-da. Ampa na-da-na-da-da-da-da. So shout out to Scouty Magoo on the Discord who came with the preemptive said, Empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanada, empanadas i'm thrilled to introduce my guest co-host today the one i've referred to as the guest co-host with them a host obviously chicago's very own blessed son the wonderfully talented podcaster producer writer actor comedian improviser what else can i say multi-hyphenate jackie sneal happy judge jackson day happy judge jack Day. She's on the

Supreme Court. Happy Judge Jackson Day. Oh, what up black people? How we doing? Yes. Everybody who is not black, turn your radios off. I'm going to talk to the black folks right now.

Turn your radios off. Turn them down down you can't hear this guys we did it we did it we got our first black person on the guy our guest turned her video off we got our first black person on the supreme court yes that's right i said the first hold on hold on don't fall no no no i know what i said i'm calculated in what i said our first black third good marsh Marshall counts third good Marshall I mean on the Supreme Court right now yes yes yes yes I mean on the Supreme Court right okay not ever black woman yes okay I just want to make sure yes yes yes all right everybody

everybody why you could turn your cameras back on your voice your radios back on I just fucked up I'm in right now not the first person ever yes not the first person ever yes but thank you miles thank you miles for for setting me straight so i don't misspeak uh it's a beautiful day miles how are you i'm fantastic i love to see black people win i love to see katanki brown jackson go through such a transparently hostile, misogynistic, racist confirmation process where they did everything they could while ignoring all of the things that made her qualified. And despite that, she made it through. So, yeah, all that to say, you know, like I like to say I'm optimistic. I like to say that things ultimately bend towards the positive.

And, you know, I think in another time, maybe people may have gotten lucky trying to pick her off. But no. And it was heartening to see that her approval ratings went up after all that nonsense went down. So, yeah, they can't stop. They can't stop the moment. It was a vile display of racism and misogyny. It was a vile display of picking apart an honorable person like I haven't seen in a very long time. But you know what? She persevered.

She is through four women on the Supreme Court. Only one of them is terrible. It's a beautiful fucking day. It's a beautiful day. But let's bring on our guests. You know, I don't want to talk too much about it. That's what I thought you were going because I thought I don't want to talk too much about it. A lovely day, KBJ, KBJ. That's what I thought you were going.

Because I thought I heard you listening to Bill Withers right before. I was. I was. But I posted it on my Instagram instead. I feel like I've done Bill Withers like four times. Well, you know, Bill Withers is a classic. You know, you can go so many ways with Bill Withers. He's a classic.

I mean, the guy was working on a factory line so deep into his career. I was like, okay, maybe I don't have to work this job and i can just do the music thing i can just go hit i can go hit notes 28 seconds long right or just get that youtube version where it's 10 hours long uh just lovely day lovely day lovely day anyway it is a lovely day and today today we have a very, very special guest. It's not often we have established achievers in the fields of journalism and science. You know, typically we have a lot of great thinkers, comedians on, but I am thrilled to be introducing our guest today, an award-winning author, science and culture journalist. Her book, The End of Bias, A Beginning, looks at discrimination and how we as a society can move forward because I think a lot of the time we just, we acknowledge the existence of biases or discrimination and then it just ends

there and say, isn't that some shit? Well, I'm thrilled to introduce our guest today, Jessica Nordell. Hello, hello. I'm thrilled to be here. And by the way, when you brought up Kataji Brown Jackson, a siren started going off outside my window. Oh, man. So the world is celebrating at this moment. The world is celebrating. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. Jessica, what part of the country are you in or the world if you are not in the U.S.? I live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Okay. Are you from Minneapolis?

I've been here for a lot of my adulthood. I was born in L.A. and grew up in Green Bay, Wisconsin. Oh, wow. Okay. Are you a Packers fan? Are you a Packers fan at all? You know, I would say I am culturally a Packers fan, but I'm not currently practicing.

Okay. All right. You were raised. We can keep this going. I was raised in the religion of the Packers, but I am currently. As long as you've seen them light. Exactly.

Wow. Okay. You've got the Chicago Alliance, the Midwest energy swirling. Oh, man. I man i mean third grade i remember packers bears like things were things were very hot between our states yeah and i was speaking of which i was asking you really you saw that clip of young prince that was like resurrected this week yes oh my gosh it i i can't believe i was telling you telling y'all earlier when it's so interesting when you can see somebody in their youth and you're like, that is that person. Undeniably, there's no question about it.

Exactly. Like you see him and you hear him and you're like, yes, this is Prince. He's like little baby 11 year old Prince is like, we should support our teachers because they work really hard for us. Oh, my gosh. They found him at 11 years old at the local news station. The editor's like, this is the purple one as a child. That's amazing.

All praise. I got to see this video. I got to see this video because I haven't seen it yet. Oh, you got to look at it. I mean, the screen grab alone, you're just going to melt because you're like,

that is 11-year-old. Like the look he's even given the camera. He's even like smizing. He has so much attitude he has more attitude as an 11 year old than like most adults yeah yeah it's like and I think then I get I get all down on myself I'm like man I have to

get this see these are like those generational talents where it's like the energy is shooting out of them even at a young age and you're like this this one's special I see it I'm looking at it now yeah i feel like that's a meme almost that look that they're giving him where he's like looking up at the camera with his eyes low yeah i see you i see i love that before we get to know

you better jessica let's tell the listeners what we are going to talk about today first talking with jessica you know bias it's everywhere and like i was telling so like saying earlier, typically, a lot of our thinking around it, or at least our observation, it sort of ends at observation. And I'm glad that there are people like you who are interested in the next steps to that. So we'll talk about bias, how we can confront those and how we can potentially make a change for the bedroom. That would be something. But first, Jessica, we got to ask you, what is something from your search history that's revealing about who you are? Ooh, search history. So we'll just dive right in. I recently was searching the term excited delirium,

which is something I've been wondering about and thinking about a lot lately because it is a made-up diagnosis that has been taught. So I live in Minneapolis and obviously there's been a lot going on in Minneapolis last few years and excited delirium is a is a made-up diagnosis that has been taught to the Minneapolis police by one of our health systems. And the idea of excited delirium is that, so this is a diagnosis that is not recognized by the American Medical Association. But what the idea is that you can become so worked up and so agitated that your body, you go into lactic acidosis, your body becomes like highly acidic and it can be

fatal. And so police are taught that excited delirium is something that they should be looking out for when they're interacting with the community, interacting with citizens. But what happens is that because they are taught this diagnosis, when they see someone really agitated, they think, excited delirium, I have to restrain this person. This is dangerous. And then the restraint itself can be a complication that leads to death. And this is used much more against African-American men, restraint and the diagnosis of excited delirium. And so I've been sort of trying to research it, figuring out what's going on right now

with the Minneapolis police being taught this. We were told that they weren't, that they had stopped teaching excited delirium, but then recently it came out that this health system was actually still teaching people about excited delirium. They had just renamed it agitated delirium so to kind of get around the the ban on teaching this so is that more of a way to justify like more aggressive ways of restraining people or is it are they trying to like preempt some kind of like liability if someone is act but potentially like what's the logic from the law enforcement side

of even bothering to like just like distribute this information to their officers right so they a lot of them have been taught that like this has been information that's been passed down for years that this is a real thing that they need to be worried about and that it's like it's a danger like if someone is experience is showing extreme agitation, it's dangerous to their own lives. So in the officer's mind, they are thinking, I need to restrain this person, get them under control so that they don't go into lactic acidosis. And is that common? Like people dying from lactic acidosis? I mean, it can happen like with marathon runners. It can happen with like extreme exertion.

But doctors I've talked to have said like, you can't tell if someone has a high acid content in their blood just from looking at them, just from observing them. Even a doctor can't tell that. That's the thing that it's amazing how, because, you know, when I first heard you say this and you said they were teaching, you know, the cops this basically, the first thing that I thought of was, oh fortunate people, they're going to marginalize people. This is a targeting tool, right?

And it's amazing how many professions that they will give cops to give them the right to hurt people. You ain't a fucking doctor. What the hell you like? How can you diagnose? Oh, oh, that person right there has excited delirium, which I just learned about two weeks ago. I can get the fuck like what? What? It makes no sense. But it is not surprising because they will talk about or give credence to anything if it can lead to the ability to target marginalized and oppressed individuals and groups and it's very disappointing and there's this also this element to it where you're like the thing we see with law enforcement is they're constantly taught all these ways to put things in your subconscious that a person you're talking to is about to kill you yeah or

as an immediate threat whether that's like the warrior mentality, a warrior approach of law enforcement officers that we see being taught, which is like, you're not there to serve and protect. You're there to fuck people up in case they get out of line. And you always have to be on your guard because you are a warrior. And now you're only facing enemy combatants out in the field or whatever, that this seems like another way, a very insidious way to just almost use someone's sense of helping somebody to justify gut get like you're saying jakey's like turning the turning flipping the switch to like violent a violent interaction totally and then the you know the sort of horrible irony of it is that then if someone does die in police custody well it was excited delirium right that is

then used as an excuse it's used as an excuse both to restrain or to inject someone with ketamine in the case you know in minneapolis this is something that has happened a lot in minneapolis inject someone with ketamine and then if the person you know in police custody, then it can be blamed on this made up diagnosis of. Right, right, right. Well, that is. I have never I never heard of this until you just said it. And it's it's a very interesting thing that there are so many terms that the people who are. the people who are you know tasked with protecting and serving us as you know the little bumper sticker they put on their vehicle says that there are so many terms that they don't let us know

about right you know they can do all these things and then after the fact we're like well there's this thing called excited delirium that we you know we look for and it's just like what like why not why not bring that out why not be if that's something that you know we look for and it's just like what like why not why not bring that out why not be if that's something that you're really looking for then that should be you know bullet point one two three these are the things the public should know and they're not i mean the public does know i guess because you know and you searched it but it's not readily available like you know most of us have never heard this and it's not like you need a psa for you know, most of us have never heard of this. And it's not like you need a PSA for, you know, the excited delirium because it's such a problem. But yet again, it just throw it on the pile of, you know, racist medical myths that we've used over the years to, you know, whether it's

prohibiting drugs or not giving proper medical care to people of color, just so many, so many ways to trick your brain to just continue down the path of just discriminating or treating people a certain way. Jessica, what's something you think is overrated? So overrated. I was thinking, I think, you know, when I think about overrated, I also think about kind of like romanticrated or romanticized. Being the first one to do something, whether it's the first woman or the first person of color.

I was thinking about this when I was watching the Katonji Brown Jackson hearings, who is now the first Black woman on the Supreme Court. And I think, you know, people romanticize the idea of being a pioneer, like you're breaking boundaries, you're shattering expectations, you're breaking through barriers. But being a pioneer is really hard. and discrimination, I talked to a lot of people who were pioneers, you know, like, whether it was like, you know, the only women in an engine in a science lab, or the first black woman to be in an

aeronautical engineering company, something like that. And what I realized about the experience of being a pioneer being the first or being the only or being one of very few, is that there's this interesting thing that happens, which is that the majority of the people in that role or at that job have like one set of job requirements that they have to meet. But the pioneer has to meet all of those requirements, plus a whole shadow set of requirements that are not written down anywhere and are not like formal job requirements i kind of think of them as like pioneer requirements so like if you like a lot of the engineers with women engineers and like women of color engineers i talked to described how they would you know an engineer has to be really good at like

technical skills really good at teamwork really good at creative problem solving you know, an engineer has to be really good at like technical skills, really good at teamwork, really good at creative problem solving, you know, be really on point with like math and science and communication skills. But then a pioneer like the only black woman at this aeronautical engineering company had to have all of those requirements. company had to have all of those requirements. Plus, she had to be able to work alone because she was solitary, had to work alone a lot, like she wouldn't be invited to work with other people. She had to be able to maintain her composure when people would make aggressive or, you know, biased remarks, had to have like infinite patience. And so there was like this whole separate set of requirements that are not formalized anywhere. And so what, you know, what I started realizing was that one thing that happens when we have like really homogenous workplaces or really homogenous disciplines or, you know, fields is that it really like artificially shrinks the number of people from

the not majority who are going to be able to be in those roles because they have like double the requirements. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting, you know, because I don't know if I don't know if I can say no one because I'm sure some people do. But for the most part, no one sets out to be historic

no one sets out to be the first ever anything certainly not by choice you know like i i don't want to be the first black person to do something personally but there may be some things where I could be the first Black person to do something just by default, right? And you brought us a really interesting point about how the requirements are even more, you know, something that, you know, a lot of Black people talk about or people of color, but, you know, I'm Black so I can speak to that experience, about or people of color, but I'm Black so I can speak to that experience, is how we have to carry Black excellence in a world of white mediocrity. And I say that, and I'm not saying every white person is mediocre. There are some excellent people who aren't non-Black excellence as well, but we have to be excellent in order to be in a room, right? We have to be excellent in order to be in the room, right? Yeah. We have to be excellent in order to sit at the table.

We have to be, we have to carry this way. We have to have the grace. We have to have the perseverance. We have to be the first to walk through the fire, you know? And here's the funny thing about fire. That shit is always hot. Hey, this is always hot, but you got to be the first one to walk through it. Right. To let everybody else know just how hot it is. And that is an incredible weight.

So I think this is a beautiful overrated because nobody wants that. You just want to do your job. Right. You were just trying to do the thing that you love. Yeah. But because of, you know, hegemony and the way our society is, it just means you have to move through that, this organism at a different pace and a different route than most people do. One that is much easier. And yeah, and I feel you, especially on that, Jaquise, because I think most, especially black kids, they're, you're raised being told you have to work twice as hard for half as

much. And that's something I was raised hearing a lot. And most people I know that you're, there's something that you already know you have to overcome a lot just to sort of get what you, what you need. And yeah, I think there is like, there, there's like, there's like this a bit of melancholy, right. To being the first while like, you know we are we all are here celebrating this we did see how hard it is to be a pioneer like in real time and that was that was difficult and that was the thing that i'm not celebrating and i wish she didn't have to go through and i think yeah it's oh it is definitely overrated in the sense where you hear especially some of the other senators in

the judiciary committee just commend that she went through that was like, oh, you were just that was is to even just think that if I want to do something, it's going to come with barrels of hate? That's mentally exhausting. And then you're still like, I want to do that. And you're still like, I want to do that, right? Because I just love what I do. Or I want to make a difference or for whatever reason, or I want to make a difference or for whatever or i want to make a lot of money who gives whatever your reason is it shouldn't come with prerequisite hate and it just does and it's a it's a very disheartening and exhausting thing yeah yeah and i mean i think you know i think we don't recognize enough how how much that shrinks the pool of people who are going to go forward with that field because like you know you know when i was doing research about this i found that sometimes the like the

job requirement and the pioneer requirement would actually be like opposite requirements you know in a job you might have to be really good at teamwork and be really social and be really good at working with other people. But then the pioneer might have to also be really good at working alone or really prefer to work alone. Right. So like the pool of people that can meet both who want to meet both is so exceedingly small because they're often, you know, at odds with each other. Right. And they're unfair sort of rubrics to use, because on one side you have especially, you know, you think of like all black women especially have to navigate this idea that if you begin to show your frustration or speak out against something that's happening to you, then you're being going to be labeled as an angry black person.

Exactly. And the fact that that is that's already an added dimension to the experience of someone who just wants to work somewhere yeah just wants to do her job yeah meanwhile the other co-workers who might not be black can say all kinds of wild shit behave all kinds of different ways and they're like well that's just harry i like beer yeah exactly especially suddenly we're looking at a complete set and then you look at like you're saying the the pool then shrinks because now you can't just be someone who inherently wants to do a certain job or career you have to do that and have your your like nerves cauterized so you're not like so sensitive to all the other bullshit that you have to deal with and yeah that

and i think that's a very subtle way of looking at how the, the, the imbalance that, that, that exists for people, especially because some people can go in and it could be an asshole and you ascend, but the second there's some melanin there and a certain way the world looks at you based on our culture, then like you're saying, that's a completely different set of facts. And I know we have to move on, but just this one thing too, that it is a lot to say on this. It is as, as beautiful as it is to see young black girls, young women of color, look at all the women, all the women of color on the Supreme court or Judge Jackson and say, oh, man, I can do that. I want to do that. That's a beautiful thing.

But on the flip side, you'll get some young black women who will see what she just went through to publicly on display to millions of people to get there and be like, that's not worth it. And that's sad. That's very fucking sad because no white man in America saw what Judge Brett Kavanaugh went through. It was like, oh, I don't know if I would ever want to be on the Supreme Court now. Who are them questions? None of them. None of them did that. The lesson there was they'll hook you up. Right. Exactly. Yeah. The lesson was like, I guess i can do whatever i want to in high school and i'll still get on the supreme court yeah i'll go through it because i'll have they will have my back like and it's it's crazy it's a crazy it's crazy no and that's and i think that's what makes

it really tragic is you think of all the people who who aren't the musicians or business people or chemists or engineers because they didn't have that secondary, that extra set of skills that so many people don't need to possess. And those are all lost. That's all lost potential. Exactly. And that's how quickly that shit happens. And it's something as simple as, like you're saying, it's like there's, yes, there's the

job description. And then there's the nuances of society that you then have to grapple with to be able to to make it there and that is a truly like that's just an intense meat grinder you know what let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll get that underrated right after this i'm jess casaveto executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two

decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling, firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden.

We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes! Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice.

And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote.

What is it? Like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carrie Champion, and this is Season 4

of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't

really near them boys. I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire?

Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that.

I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified.

Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this?

We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're allowed to be doing this we passed the review board a year ago we're not hurting people there's nothing dangerous about what you're doing they're just dreams dream sequence is a new horror thriller from blumhouse television iheart radio and realm listen to dream sequence on the iheart radio app apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And lastly, but not leastly, Jessica, what is something you think is underrated? I think something that's underrated is being a work in progress. So I think in our, I think we live in a society that wants you to have the answers now and to know the right, the truth now and to get it all right now and not make mistakes and be fully evolved as a human being right now. And I just think that's not how we are as people. I think we're all like constantly screwing up, constantly learning. That's like the beauty of being a human is like you get to learn and grow and change and be mentally in a different place this year than you were last year. People can change and people can grow and evolve.

And so I think the idea of not knowing is kind of underrated. I think that I wish that we could embrace more of a sense that we are all in process, that we are all going through some kind of transformation. And it's okay to not know or to screw up or to make a mistake because you can just start over and try to do better next time yeah and snow pants okay okay that's a nice no pants are nice i went uh snowboarding last month and bought me a nice little snow pants outfit and i was like oh these keep me warm i like them i like you don't do them in blue you don't ski in blue jeans like a like a mountain i don't see in blue mountains like a real gangster no man you know i put on my gangster hat years ago now it's snow pants all the time yeah something waterproof that's a beautiful that's a beautiful uh underrated you know like i remember you know

just speaking of work in process when i I was younger and I was just being introduced to the sports world and there was this quarterback that I was like, oh, I like this guy. He is he is he's pretty good. He throws far. You know, everybody talks about him. And I started to like him. His name was Brett Favre of the Green Bay Packers. His name was Brett Favre of the Green Bay Packers. And, you know, I had to go through that process of growing and realizing, you know, that this is this is a terrible thing. I'm a Chicago. I'm in Chicago. I'm a Bears fan. And I grew and I was allowed to change. And if my fellow Bear fans didn't let me change, who knows where would you be now? Where would I be now? But you still wear those Wrangler jeans, though, like a pro. But, you know, I would be having bad style now wearing Wrangler jeans.

But, you know, this idea, right, that you're speaking to, it's the whole reason why we have such conflict culturally. because we we aren't looking at people as being able to change that intensifies the perceived effectiveness of cancel culture right because and i think a lot of people don't realize there's the way when there's like looking what's happening with cancel code nothing's happening with cancel culture you have a group of people who feel powerless who are trying to do whatever they can to exert some kind of change on a scale that they're only able to, which is, well, I don't sign the deals at Netflix, so I'm just not going to fuck with this person anymore. That's what I'm doing because I'm not the gatekeeper. And because real cancel culture is when the gatekeepers are the ones saying, you know what, let me pull this

lever. And now we're not going to let, you know, abusive women cook for, or no one's going to be successful doing anything like that. But we look all around us and that's not taken seriously in any place. There's a lot of lip service paid. But when you look at the actions of the people that can quote unquote cancel someone, they're not equipped to do that. a lot of people who are kind of like really rigid in their ability, like, especially with their own, you know, ignorance, it's easier to say I'm the finished article right now and push back on everything. And the, the idea that maybe you don't know everything than to just give yourself that little bit of grace or that little bit of patience to say, you know, I don't, I fuck, look, there was a time when I didn't know things and I know more like you just were constantly learning. And most people don't afford themselves that ability to say, yeah, maybe I have it wrong on what I think what a person or trans person's rights are or a woman's right to bodily autonomy. Maybe I'm able to reassess that. But I think because like you're saying, the emphasis is like, oh, you don't have your fully formed opinion on that already. You're not an expert on that already. Why are you even talking? That's just going to put somebody in a position where they're like, well, fuck, I don't

know. Like, I'm just going to, you know what? I'm just going to double down on this bad take because it's better. Cause I see, I see people that are also doing that. And at least I'm not alone because I don't see as many people saying, you know, I may have that wrong and I'm open to learning more. Also makes it hard for people to admit mistakes that are serious. So, I mean, I think one of the I think the, you know, the Me Too movement is like an unfinished project. And part of it, I think part of it is, you know, has to do with the fact that, like don't as a society have a have a space for people to say, you know what, I did that. And it was really messed up. And I was really screwed up. And I am trying to figure out why I was so screwed up and what the toxic messages were that I had absorbed that caused me to behave that way. And I want to do better in the future. Like we don't really have a conversation about that. And so it seems like the choice is for people to just deny that it ever happened.

That seems to be the choice. That's like the only option is to be like, oh no, you know, it never happened. I just feel like we would be so much, we would be able to make so much more progress together if we could say, yeah, I would be able to make so much more progress together if we could say, yeah, I, I, I did that. It was really messed up. It was completely unacceptable. Yeah. And then that offers people a bridge or an off ramp to that, to say, okay, wow, that's,

we get that you're different now, because I think when most people just sort of do the thing like that never happened, then that that's, that only energizes people more to be like this person is vile this person knows nothing they're inherently evil and they might be inherently evil but without knowing giving people the opportunity to at least I mean not to say that there is no opportunity for that it's just that that's not really that's not the norm is to say y''all, I fucked up really bad. I fucked up really bad. And here are the ways that I fucked up. I'm trying to, and you do get the one-off apologies from now and then, like every now and then where you're like, oh, wow, that that's, I can, the contrition is there. This person is trying to grow. But like, to your point in the, especially since, you know,

the last presidential administration, it seems like the sort of move of the of the nation is just to be like that never happened the thing i'm showing you video of right now that never happened and fuck you and yeah that that leads to some really dark places right and it's crazy too because we live in a we live in an instant gratification society right now you know where i mean everything just moves, you know, even to getting your music. You know, if an album drops, you can be listening to it at 12 on one. Right. You know, versus when we were kids, we had to at least get in our car, go to the store, get the CD, you know, like it was an extra few extra steps before we could even get it that same day. Right. And I think because of that, we have unfortunately put that on top of this very real thing of you just have to be, you know, there is no immediate, like, you made a mistake and this is why you fucked up and blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, oh, well, shit.

Like, I didn't even know I made a mistake. Right. Sometimes people don't. I'm not talking about egregious things. Like, I'm even talking about small things where it's like we're so quick to not allow people the chance to grow or to learn or to show their growth it's wild yeah the instant gratification thing like you're saying it extends to just that even someone's development has to be instant because i think that is a huge difference too because i i feel like me growing up pre-smartphone in high school gave me some bandwidth to like have take a second look at

my own behavior and compare that to who I think I should be or what others are telling me I should be and like parse go parse through that on my own time whereas now I feel like that that timing is very limited all like all potentially everything you do and say can be recorded. And I think that also gives people puts people in a very odd headspace as well where you're on edge, too, because you're like, well, fuck, am I just the right thing? Am I doing this? It feels much more chaotic. I mean, not to not to bring this up again, but the recent example of this is, you know, the, the thing that happened at the Oscars, right.

Where everybody was like, Oh, he didn't apologize 15 minutes after it happened. And it was like, how many fights have you been in where you apologize 15 minutes after it happened? None. Right.

Like, somebody talking to someone about your wife and all the context of a, like, this is a, this is already fucking weird y'all yeah and like so when the apology came the next day it was like oh well he didn't apologize like the man couldn't have 12 hours to like realize what happened calm down you know all these things and it's just it's a very it was a very weird thing where you know everybody expects you to like come through the full circle realization

immediately where even 24 hours is too long yeah yeah yeah like we we're beings that exist in time and we like metabolize things in time i mean i even think about like the the kind of the form that the apology often takes when someone does something that they regret later or get called out on later. The apology is often that doesn't reflect who I am. Right. Right. When I feel like the part that's missing is like, but it does reflect who I was when I did it. Right.

Right. You're like, no, that was me. You're right. And I don't want to be that anymore right yeah that that's oof uh I really always like encourage people especially like even in my own friend group people also project this sort of like instant change or like lack of grace for themselves like you know like I see it all the time like I can't believe I did that yes and it's like yo go easy

go fucking easy you're in the fuck you're just as uh the radio legend big boy one day while i used to work with the radio i fucked up a photo like a recording because my phone went off during an interview with future and i was like i'm so sorry i can't believe i did that i apologize so much and he's like it's all good man he's, you're just paying your tuition to the school of experience. That's what he said. And I was, I thought he was going to fuck me up. Like, I thought I was like, you know, I thought he was giving me looks. I was like, man, when this, when this is over, like I'm getting, I'm going to hear it. And he was so cool about it. And that really stuck with me is being able to recontextualize our mistakes as, you know, data gathering. It's

the same, I think goes alongside with people who are so entrenched in like the fear of failure too, is that you, they, you have to recontextualize what these things are. They're not failures that indicate that you are a failure. That's just an experiment that went one way. And now you have a data set to work with. And now you, you accumulate all this data. Trust me, you will begin to see the matrix of it all and grow more. Yeah, I love that. That like, yeah, showing compassion to ourselves. So important. Yeah, it's so important because, you know, I say this to friends as well.

When they're beating themselves up or going through something or even if they're like not feeling well, like because we't do this where i say yo right if i was not feeling well what would you tell me you would tell me go rest do all these things you would have compassion for me have that same compassion for yourself have that same compassion for yourself we we why is it different when it's you yeah it's not because you are a decent person and I am a piece of garbage. That's why the most I can do is root for you in your time of need. Yeah. Well, this is great. Okay. So, I mean, Jessica, I just want to roll right into your work, right?

So we're constantly living in a world where we see discrimination abounds. Our cultural biases abound. I feel like as it relates to this show, we talk about forms of discrimination and bias a lot. And I think one thing that we talk about a lot is media bias and sort of the lens at which the stories of our world are being told through people who aren't necessarily engaging with it with the same stakes. So it begins to tinge their reporting in a way that we not it's it doesn't end up really connecting to the people that need to hear it. So I guess I mean, you know, this is like off of, I think, 15 plus years of research into this topic. I mean, just generally, I know I just said a bunch of other specific stuff, but I would love to hear

kind of what your journey was to to say you know what i want to dedicate some time to understanding this and like what what you've seen in terms of how we can move through or improve our situation yeah it's um that's a big question uh yeah so i you know i got interested in this topic because of my own experience with gender bias in the working world. We could have a whole conversation just about that. But basically, you know, I experienced bias because I'm a woman and I had a particular moment where I was starting out as a journalist, sending out stories to editors and not hearing anything back. And I had this like desperate moment where I was like, if I don't, if this pitch doesn't land, it's just going to die.

There was like only a small window of opportunity to like make it to make it land somewhere. And so I pitched the piece with a man's name instead of my name. Right. And that same piece that had been ignored by everybody was immediately accepted for publication. by everybody was immediately accepted for publication. And so that was kind of like my beginning of starting to really kind of think about this in a more systematic way, because I thought, well, that editor probably isn't like intentionally rejecting pitches by women and accepting pitches by men, but obviously there's something going on. accepting pitches by men, but obviously there's something going on. And so that started my really kind of like lifelong interest in and fascination with this topic, which is like, what is going on

when people behave, when they say one thing, when they say that they believe one thing and they hold a certain set of values, but then they behave in a different way. They behave in a way that conflicts with those values. And so I started really writing about it, reporting about it, kind of trying to understand it psychologically, developmentally, cognitively, like really trying to kind of get into what is going on here in the mind,

as well as interpersonally. And then like, as you kind of brought up earlier, when we were talking, at some point I just thought, you know, I'm kind of, I want to move beyond discussing the problem. Like, there's a lot of documentation. There are thousands of studies that document gender bias, racial bias, you know, bias on the basis of sexual orientation, religion, disability, like it is well documented across every field of human endeavor. So my question then was like, what do we do about it? Is there something that can actually be done or are we stuck just admiring the problem? Right. And so that was like the genesis of this book was really me trying to answer that question. Like what actually changes people's behavior? Right. And what, so to,

as you embark on that journey, like what, did you have like a first sort of inclination or idea of you're like, my, my gut is saying, this is how we tackle it. And then did you end up learning a lot more about it? You're like, wow, like I'm so far off. Or maybe you actually, because of your research into it, you were kind of on the right path. I mean, I really went in with casting a really wide net, like really kind of open to everything, you know, and I, I had heard about certain approaches that worked and then I had heard, you know, there's certain approaches that got press and then were debunked. And so I was really just trying to get, gather as much data as possible. You know, I definitely went through kind of a dark night of the soul

about halfway through the, or maybe not quite halfway, maybe a third of the way through the project where I had been devoting a lot of time and energy to looking at individual kind of interventions, like how, what can happen so you and I can engage with each other in a humane and life-affirming way

where we recognize each other's a humane and life affirming way where we recognize each other's basic humanity and individuality. And at some, I remember like waking up at like two in the morning thinking it's the structures, you know, the structures are where we need to focus our effort and really asking myself, like, you know, does it make sense to focus on individuals, minds and hearts? And then I came to this understanding, which I fully, which I really

fully feel, you know, is true that the two cannot be separated, that the individual, what happens in our minds and hearts is what creates our structures. It's what causes us to support policies, uphold policies, vote for certain people. And then those policies and those laws and those larger structures in turn start to influence the way we think and feel and react to one another as well so that was one thing that if you're we're kind of asking about like did things change along the way my my feeling about the individual and the structural and how they relate has really evolved into seeing them as fully you know know, intertwined. Gotcha. You know, I remember this was, I don't know, maybe six, seven years ago,

was somebody asked me, who are like some of your favorite actors, right? And I rattled off like five or six names, all men, right? And not even on purpose i just you know that's just where my my thought process go and she looked at me was like i ain't no women you like i was like damn yeah there is there's a lot like why why why did i not just name a single woman a single performer who is not a man and i really started to like that got to me like and i don't think she meant it in like a you motherfucker you didn't say no women i think she just like legitimately acts and it really got to me and started making me think like even in my field how we default to the bias of defaulting to men as the top performers or, or, you know, certain individuals as, or certain genres or certain things as valuable or the top

of the echelon. Right. And, and it's a, it is a bias because even just saying who are your favorite actors automatically is a bias to male performers right right yeah you begin to yeah you're so and it's wild how you know and and it's just and you don't even think about that because like i said the structure has you know like the sag awards that award is called the actor right right and these and these are things and i don't think they're i don't think you know those things were put in place you know maliciously but the bias of the structure of it right has led to if somebody asks you who's your favorite actor most people unfortunately the first person they're going to say is a man and and it's crazy because like it's like there is no there's no difference in like

the performance that a great performer gives right uh with the bias world and so it's a very interesting thing i think to to think about how the structure has ingrained these biases in us right and we don't even realize like that you have you reflexively are reinforcing patriarchy or you're reflexively reinforcing white supremacy. And yeah, people of color even do this because again, it becomes internalized and those structures are there. I'm really curious what you've seen as like sort of stories of success or methods of success as it relates to a specific bias. I mean, you know, I'll allow you if there's something really interesting, you know, because again, I really do want everybody to hear that. Yeah, okay. I think we're all on the same page about our biases and how those reinforce existing structures

of discrimination, et cetera. But what, so what is that? What's that next path out? Or what was your, what did you observe as you were writing this book? Yeah. So there I mean, there's there isn't. Well, I guess I would say there's not like one silver bullet. Of course. Of course. But there are like a lot. There are really a lot of approaches that have been shown to change people's behavior.

So one, for instance, that I think is super interesting is about media, actually. One, for instance, that I think is super interesting is about media, actually. And this is kind of a body of research that was developed by an American psychologist and a French psychologist of Arab origin. And they were looking at anti-Arab prejudice in France, which is a really big problem. And so what they were trying to figure out is whether media, certain kinds of media representations would change the way French people who are not of Arab origin would interact with people of Arab origin. And so they did something really interesting where they developed these posters. And on the posters, they had a bunch of faces and figures of Arab people with their names, and a description of that person. And on some of the posters,

they were all like positive descriptions, like optimistic, generous, you know, friendly, etc. And on the other posters, they were more mixed. So it was like, this person is optimistic. This person is pessimistic. This person is stingy. This person is generous. Like it created like a really big, a lot of diversity within that group of Arab people. And they found that when folks were exposed to the diversity poster, not diversity like people of different ethnic origins,

but like people within the Arab group being really, really diverse and complex and different from each other, that poster then, as a result of spending time in the presence of that poster, people behaved more positively and less in a less discriminatory way toward Arab folks. And they tested this by like, having, having the poster hang in like a physical therapy office for several weeks. And then they would do a test where a patient would come in, and there'd be like a person of Arab origin sitting in the waiting room, and they would look at how close the other person sat next to them, things like that, or whether they would help

someone who had spilled like a bag, a purse full of, you know, items. And so I think this is really interesting because when we talk about like representing diversity in media, I think we often think of it as like, you need to show, you know, someone from this social identity and someone from this social identity and someone from this, you know, different social identities. I think what's really important is to actually show that within any identity, you have a massive variety and massive diversity, because that starts to actually break down the kinds of stereotypes that we have about one another and our other groups. So sort of taking down like these monolithic views we have of people, because I think, yeah, it is easy, especially when you talk, especially with marginalized groups, that because they're marginalized, that then they're, they're, they're then referred to as like this monolith of just people that are all the same. But yeah, that I didn't,

that in my, in my mind, I was like, I guess that that helps because you're sort of reinforcing this idea to somebody that's like, yes, people are also diverse, just like in your group that you identify with.

Exactly. Exactly. Because like the human mind often will think of their own group as being really diverse and the other group as homogenous. This is something that just like we do psychologically. So breaking down that monolith, that homogeneity, it just makes it a lot harder to stereotype people. Right, right.

Okay, let's continue this conversation. But let's take a quick break. And we'll be back right after this. But let's take a quick break and we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high-control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts,

the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed?

you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer,

we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep.

Early years of your career. Without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports, where we live at the intersection of sports and culture. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese.

I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them. Why is that? I just come here to play basketball every single day and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically black.

I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you.

Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session. 24 hours. BPM 110. 120. She's terrified.

Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out? I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And just continuing along with this conversation, I wanted to ask about medical bias, because that's something recently, unfortunately, has been a topic in my family, because some diagnoses were not made properly. And you can, there's, this is a very common problem with as it relates to gender, perceived gender identity,

or race. And I'm curious, what, what to do about medical biases, too, because I think that's something that probably affects many, many people, even if they're not really aware. Yeah, it's a huge problem. Yeah. I mean, it's well documented that there are disparities in treatment for women, for Black people, for Latino people, for many different groups. So one, you know, there are a lot of different approaches, but one that I found really interesting and that had some really good evidence behind it

was something we might call structured decision making or like behavioral design. So the idea here is that instead of trying to change people's biases, you change the context that they make decisions in. And so in this case, there were a group of trauma surgeons at Johns Hopkins Hospital who were concerned that patients weren't getting adequate blood clot prevention when they were coming in for trauma. And in order to try to improve that, they started having doctors use a checklist approach. So instead of just, if I'm a doctor talking to you, instead of just asking you questions and kind of deciding on my own what treatment to give you, I would actually use a computerized

checklist where I have like, you know, 25 questions and it's the same question for every patient. And then, you know, I do check, check, check, check, check. And then the computer, the algorithm makes a suggestion about, you know, what kind of treatment to get. And what they found was that when this approach was used, this kind of formal checklist approach, gaps between, in this case, women and men's treatment disappeared. Women and men actually began getting the same level of blood clot prevention treatment.

So it was just about being like, let's take this to the most objective place, which is these facts about this human body that absolutely cannot be obscured by the doctor's own biases or what have you. That's okay. That's in a way you're like, God, you know, that's the part where the human aspect comes into it. Because despite all of your medical training and you are making those assessments, that there are moments where somehow, even though you're saying the same thing, maybe verbally versus a checklist, you're arriving at a different outcome. Can I ask a question? Can I ask a question? And not to say like you have the answer to this, but just in your research and in your own opinion, basically speaking medically, let's say, you know, because as a black person and who has a black mother and black women are and women and black women in general are very discriminated and the biases that they go through in the medical field or as patients are terrible and you know i've gotten to the point and i've even told my mother this and she advocates for herself a lot that yo if you see a new doctor or even your doctor you'll just tell them right away hey look i'm gonna need you to go ahead and not do the things that normally happen to us when we sit in this chair.

I'm going to need you to not tell me it's just your anxiety. I'm going to need you to tell me it's not this, it's not this. I'm going to need you to know this right up top, right? And some doctors or people in general take offense to that. Right. Right. And what is it? What is it about our biases where we don't want to see them or we don't want or if somebody calls us out on them, we kind of, you know, go into the shell and instead of just hearing it and and start to make those steps forward to not do those things, because, you know, in some cases, your biases can be very dangerous. Oh, yeah.

Like the medical field, right? It's a matter of life and death for a lot of people. So you would think somebody who has taken the oath to save lives would be doing everything possible to not have these biases. But if you tell them they do, they take offense to that. What, in your opinion, allows that or doesn't allow that breakthrough to happen? That's, yeah, that is, I mean, it's a huge problem. People not being able to face what's going on in their own minds. I think it has to do with a couple of different things. I think one is that people want to believe

that they are good people. And when they are confronted with the fact that they've done something that could harm someone else or has harmed someone else, it's like a threat to their sense of self. Right. Their sense of who they are. Their sense of themselves as a good person who they are, and their sense of themselves

as a good person. And that is so upsetting to people that they sometimes will shut down, disengage, become super defensive, just not be able to sit with the discomfort that that causes. Right. Interesting. Yeah. So, I mean, one of the things that I feel is really important, I talk about it in the book is like developing the skills, the emotional skills to be able to sit with the

discomfort of seeing things about your own self that maybe you don't like to see, but you have to see because you can't change them if you don't look at them. Yeah. And to at least have that, the, the rigor or just to be brave enough to say, I'm going to engage with that process. And I know I need to do, if I'm, if my goal is to actually be a more fully formed person, then I actually,

it's the discomfort of self awareness that I have to really sit with. Cause I think that is a big thing that we try to avoid. And even to your point about we, how we all inherently have this view of ourselves, that we are good avoid. And even to your point about how we all inherently have this view of ourselves that we are good people. And when something threatens that order, it's essentially an existential threat to our identity. And you see, I really first realized this about myself as it relates to me and my own like relationships, right? Is this is like, these are the, this is how a lot of fights in like romantic relationships go down. A partner points something out to the other that they don't like. And the other person takes that immediately as I'm not worthy. I'm not good. I'm fucked up. So then now your rebuttal is now completely powered by all of this fucking defensiveness, as you're saying, because now you're in the fight for your fucking identity rather than hearing. Yeah, you know what? Maybe I should I could I could be

a little bit better about taking the garbage out rather than be like, what are you trying to say? I do all this shit for you and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, that's not that's not how it needed to be heard. And to the point of being giving yourself some grace is to say, let me hear that. I know if I'm if this person is a good partner to me, I know they're not trying to talk shit to me. They're just expressing their needs to me. And then you say, okay, can I sit with that? Can I find it? Is there a truth to what they're saying? And am I okay with acknowledging that there is an opportunity for me to add something to, you know? Yeah. And just pointing out, yeah, the fact that this error of my thinking or, you know, flaw in my reaction was pointed out doesn't mean that I am inherently unlovable.

I think a lot of the fear comes from this feeling, right? Like there's something so wrong with me. I am unlovable. Yeah. And it's truly just like the switch you just have to flip is, yeah, you're worthy. You're worthy. Like that's the floor, to flip is, yeah, you're worthy. You're worthy. Like that's the floor, right? The floor is that you're worthy.

So we're not going below worthiness unless you're like an absolutely deplorable human being. But that's the floor. It almost seems that like being able to sit in that discomfort and being able to have a self-worth that if, you know, something uncomfortable is said to me or I need to live in that, that I'm still worthy of ABC or things like that is almost it almost feels like that's one of the first steps to getting past and getting over like your biases. Right. Because without that, like you can't, how are, how can you, you know? Yeah. Right. It's interesting. Mistakes are okay.

Mistakes are part of the experience. It's, but it's the, what you're doing with the mistakes is what is the differentiating factor. Are you doubling down and denying that you are a fucking work in progress? Are you willing to be a bit of a explorer and look at your own life as something that builds on itself? And, you know, you're just increasing the knowledge that you're standing on rather because if, if you're able to acknowledge that there's something for me to learn, you're actually adding wisdom to your experience. And that's the difference. It's when you deny that,

that's when you have the wisdom is that is not wisdom. Wisdom is being able to have that grace and say, Hmm, that is interesting. I do need to look at that. And if it makes me uncomfortable, I can look at that a little bit more, but also know that by engaging with this, I'm, this is an additive process. There's nothing that's being taken away by engaging in it. That's beautiful. And it's expansive. It's expanding. I mean, I can tell you that I went through a lot writing this book of having to look at my own biases, like every kind of bias. There was nowhere to hide for me. I'm writing about this. I can't run away from it. you that it has been so life altering to look at those and to deal with them and to face them and to work on them in terms of like my relationships with other people like i the the level of like trust and just the the depth of the relationships is so much stronger because of that, that, that process. Right.

And that willingness, because I mean, yeah, if you're, if you're able to be kind to yourself, you, like you said, I,

it's like after I've gone, when I was really struggling with my mental health and going to therapy and shit like that, my dude, the way I live is so different because I no longer navigate the world in this, like, sort of like on a wire being like, oh, fuck, like, am I going to fuck my whole life up? And I'm not worthy of shit.

And I'll be abandoned because I've experienced certain things like that in my life. When you're able to move past that and be able to see it for what it is, you're able to love people more deeply. You're able to have deeper relationship with your friends, communicate more directly with your friends. There's so much that opens up with that. But like we all say, just give yourself that floor that you're worthy and,

and, and give yourself the room to fuck up. And like, yeah, if you fuck up, apologize and that's fine. And it doesn't mean that you learn from it. Yeah.

You're going to be banished and completely ostracized and become a pariah. No, it's like everybody else you fuck up, but just own that shit and really figure out how you can move through that. And that's, there's the wisdom right there. All right. Jessica, thank you so much for joining us.

This was a fucking fantastic conversation we just had. We'd love to have you back. Where can people find you and follow you, support you, hear you? It was such, it was just so much, it was wonderful talking to you. So you can find me, support you, hear you. It was just so much wonderful talking to you. You can find me on my website, jessicanordell.com.

I'm on Twitter at Jess Nordell. If you're in LA, I'll be at the LA Times Book Festival in a couple weeks doing a panel on parenting during the social upheaval. What else? And then in the fall, I'll be doing a tour for when the paperback

comes out so you'll be able to find me on bookstores this fall okay cool for sure uh and is there a tweet or some other social media posting that you've enjoyed that you'd like to share with us you know yes and it relates a lot to what we were just talking about this is a quote it's attributed to winston Churchill, but that might be apocryphal. I'm not sure if it's actually him, but it's such a great, a great quote. I actually just tweeted it myself. And the quote is success is being able to go from failure to failure with no loss of enthusiasm. Wow. That's true. Wow. Unleash your inner SoundCloud rapper, folks. Don't let them tell you it's bad.

You keep going. It doesn't matter because it's about you. That's so true, though. That is such a... You can see how much people lose momentum just from the wrong word or a weird write-up or something. And yeah, that...

Don't let the momentum die for sure. Love that. It came up because I was just at South by Southwest a couple of weeks ago and there was a panel that I stopped in at, which was about failure for artists. And it was packed. It was like every 25 year old in within like,

you know, a radius of 10 miles was packed in that room. Like, how do you deal with failure? And a lot of people were talking about it. And I ended up talking to this one young musician who was really struggling. And I just shared with him that this attitude is what has helped me in my own creative journey so much. Just realizing that the failure, it's not the end of anything. It's just, as you pointed out, it's just another piece of data.

It's the tuition you're paying for the school experience yeah you just move on to the next thing and guess what you won't have student loans if you keep paying your tuition school of experience you know there's a whole it's right there for you and it's the other thing too is like this metaphor be it life's a river right you got to just let the river take you but rivers have rocks and fucking snags and shit in the river that you can get hung up on like which are our tribulations our failures but are you gonna hang on to that fucking rock or you're gonna let the river keep taking you where the scenery will change because a lot of us we stay stuck holding on to rocks and shit when we realize if you just let go the scenery will change

because the river has no choice but to take you there. Unless it's Dwayne the Rock Johnson, then I'm holding on to Dwayne the Rock Johnson. Holding on to Dwayne the Rock Johnson. I would hold on to Dwayne the Rock. Yes, I would too. I changed my middle name to Rocky from my eighth grade graduation because anybody who was Blake Blasian, I was rooting for as a kid.

Jaquese, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can people find you, follow you, and what's that tweet that you like? Ah, you know. You know what it is. You can find me in these streets everybody uh and at jackie's neil on everything jessica i just want to say this was beautiful conversation it was great i think probably i don't know i've guest hosted or been on the show well over like 20 30 times now and uh probably my favorite conversation i've had on

the zeitgeist so it was a pleasure to talk to you so thank you so much a couple oh also before i get to a tweet i know i i was on all last week and i promoted the comedian feud it's all sold out everybody it's sold out in less than a week uh Nope, sorry. So if you are in L.A. and you want to come, there will be some door sales on Mother's Day, May 8th. But it will be a monthly show. I'm going to do this monthly. They asked me immediately to make this a monthly show. So there will be some chances to come to Comedian Fuse.

So definitely do that. Physical season two on Apple TV just got its release date, June 3rd. I'll be in that upcoming season, so be on the lookout for that. And some tweets. This is from at Chicago History. I got three. Where it says, I'm from Chicago,

where people say, follow me, and then hop on the Dan Ryan and start doing 120 miles per hour. Very true. Very fucking true. That is about the truest thing I have ever read about Chicago people in my life. Very funny. Also, this is more of a shout-out tweet than anything, but the queen, the icon, Jack K. Harry,

Shout out tweet than anything, but the queen, the icon, Jackie Harry. 28 years ago, the LA Times reviews Sister Sister and referred to it as hardly an epic comedy. I say our staying power on Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon Prime have proved that statement to be bunk. Happy anniversary to us. 28 years ago, Sister Sister, and it is every bit as much of an iconic show. Such a good show. I know, 28 years ago. Pretty wild. So shout out.

I just became that Matt Damon gif from Saving Private Ryan where he turns like 70 years old. Right, exactly. It's almost 30 years ago. I don't like it. And last tweet. This is very funny. From at Mariana057. I don't know.

Why is Iron Man called Iron Man and not The Male? Because F-E is on the iron. I thought that was brilliant. Brilliant! Shout out to my periodic table fans out there. We've gone on that one quick. Very funny. That's it. I don't know why i remember that but i hate it i hate the chemistry i'm not gonna lie i was terrible at stoichiometry so i fucking it's math but i don't know what a valence electron is so fuck this let's talk about some tweets i

like some tweets i like uh let's see oh mike druckerer at Mike Drucker tweeted. I like when assassins whisper as they help a dying body to the floor because they never need to be that nice. But professionalism matters. I just like the sentiment about an assassin. And then speaking of feeling old at Jill Krajewski tweeted the yeah, yeah, yeah. His maps is 19. That's old enough to have their heart broken so bad. They need to listen to maps which really got me because damn I was I love you like I love you

shout out to Karen Karen O that's who it is you can find me at miles of gray on twitter and what is that instagram yeah for sure and the new basketball podcast, Mad Boosties with Jack. And also 420 Day Fiance.

If you like 90 Day Fiance and Married at First Sight, that's where we hang out and get high and talk about our favorite reality show. Until then, find us, Daily Zeitgeist, at Daily Zeitgeist on Twitter, at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. Got the Facebook fan page and website, DailyZeitgeist.com, where we post our episodes and our footnotes. Footnotes. Thank you. Where you can find the links to all the articles we talked about, as well as the song we are writing out on today. I want to go out on just some more reggaeton,

but from Spain again. I know, I know. That's not their thing. But this is an artist called Bea Pelea. And this track is called Hálmelo Otra Vez. And this one's kind of funky, too. It's twisted. It's twisted.

Okay, so check out that track. And we'll talk to you later to tell you what's trending. Until then, we'll see you. Bye. I'm Jess Casaveto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories

behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese.

Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry, Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour.

If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way

we consume women's basketball. And on this new season, we'll cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio apps, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network

is sponsored by Diet Coke.