The Daily Zeitgeist - Debunking The 300 And Fascism 12.19.23

Episode Date: December 19, 2023

In episode 1599, Jack and guest co-host super producer DJ Danl Goodman are joined by author of The Bronze Lie: Shattering the Myth of Spartan Warrior Supremacy, Myke Cole, to discuss… The Modern Day Obsession With Spartan Culture, The Far Right's Bad Faith Reading Of History, Debunking The '300' Myth and more! LISTEN: On The Block by Chase & StatusSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me for I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry.

Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese

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Hello, the internet, and welcome to Season 318, Episode 2 of Dirt Daily's iGuys Day, a production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. I just dabbed for Daniel. Jack just dabbed. I dabbed because I accidentally dabbed before we started recording. And I just think it's still cool when you do that in your 40s.

It's Tuesday, December 19th, 2023. Less than a week away from Christmas. Oh, right. Ever heard of it? The what? Ever heard of it anymore, America? Or are you too busy? I don't know.

Anyways, trying to channel my inner Fox News host. It's not going well. My name is Jack O'Brien, a.k.a. Do Your Nuts Hang Low. Are they huge and made of bone? Were they found in Oxfordshire in the gravel and limestone? Is your scrotum like a boulder with a shaft like a light pole? Do Your Nuts Hang Low. That is courtesy of Christy Yamaguchi, Maine.

He wanted me to do it as Chain Hang Low by Jibs, but I'm more familiar with Ears Hang Low by, like, Boy Scouts? I don't know. Something like that. But anyways, it's a reference to the British doctor who saw the first dinosaur bone before people knew about dinosaurs and said, that is no giant femur. That is, in fact, a giant scrotum. And, well, here we are.

The rest is history. I'm thrilled to be joined in my second seat by a very talented producer, musician, streamer, esports commentator, the original editor of this show. He's constantly streaming everything everywhere because he is that bitch on Twitch. It's DJ Danil Goodman! Yay! AKA soon-to-be NYC Danil.

That's right. I'm leaving this mortal coil of Los Angeles and putting on my most comfortable down jacket and braving the cold, bitter winds of New York City. Yeah, I'm getting my Timbs. Have you figured out how you're wearing your Timbs? Are you like lacing them up to like three loops below and then just having the tongue hang out?

What do we think? Three loops, tongue out. I'm actually putting Timbs on top of another pair of Timbs. I'm trying to fully ingratiate as much as possible. I brought three Yankee fitteds. Wow. Slightly different sizes. So those two I can wear on top of each other.

Yeah, I'm ready. I'm trying to work into calling the weather brick. I understand that is the language. So, you know, working on it. The weather is brick, huh? Yeah, it's brick out. That's when it's cold for all you. Am I allowed to talk yet?

Because I've been living in New York City for a very long time. I've never heard that. There you go. Yes, it is slang that the youths are using. I've been living in New York City for a very long time. I've never heard that. There you go. Yes, it is slang that the youths are using. This is my understanding, at least. Daniel has his ear to the high school playground. Well, they kicked me out. So now it's a thousand feet away.

So, yeah. Yeah, who's that voice? That voice is someone we're thrilled to be joined in. In our third seat, a prolific author of fantasy and sci-fi novels and nonfiction. You've seen on the Discovery Channel series Contact. His nonfiction book, The Bronze Lie, is about the myth of the Spartan warrior and why it's so popular with everyone, but specifically white supremacists. Also why it's completely full of, to quote him, so many holes it could drain pasta. I don't know if that's a direct quote, but it's like an analogy he used that I loved. Please welcome Mike Cole!

The weather here is absolutely brick. Oh, shit, man. Sorry to hear that. Mike, what the... here is absolutely brick oh shit good to know good sorry to hear that yeah mike what thank you no seriously thank you very much i was so excited to be invited uh i think like you know you don't need me to price crack i think you probably hear that enough so oh man thanks no yeah not not anymore actually that being a thing but uh thing But I've been thinking about Greeting all our expert guests

With a How was that for you? Pretty good In fact, when I lived in D.C. They came to I don't remember They came to a bar They were doing a tour

The guys from that ad? Oh yeah And the thing that's so amazing is Imagine that Making millions of dollars That's what you do You walk into a room And you go The guys from that ad? Oh, yeah. And the thing that's so amazing is, imagine that. Making millions of dollars for just, that's what you do. You walk into a room and you go, what the? What the? I mean, it's not that hard for me to imagine, to be honest with you.

All right, Mike, we are going to get into the content of The Bronze Lie in a moment. But before we do that, we do like to get to know our guests a little bit better and ask them, what is something from your search history that is revealing about who you are? For me, most recently, it would be the email addresses for the staff

for my congressman. Because if you Google Michael, Michael the Y, of course, NPR 1A, you will bring up me talking on national public radio on the crisis in the volunteer fire service. Something like 70% of firefighting in this country. Now, you don't notice this in LA, right? You're in a big city.

You see paid firefighters. That's not how it is in most of the country. Most of the country, it's jack wagons like me who are doing our jobs and then a pager goes off. Maybe we can go and maybe we can't. And with climate change coming on and people not volunteering anymore, it's becoming a real problem. And it's become a real light cause for me. And I'm trying to get, I wrote a piece about it this late. I went on NPR and I'm trying to get Congress interested in it. Nice. You said something's coming on, I don trying to get Congress interested in it. Nice. Hell yeah. You said something's coming on.

I don't know. Is that like a weather front or something? Yeah, what's that? I'm familiar. Yeah, it's just, you know, I don't know if you guys have noticed. It's a little hotter. Ah, yeah. I mean, you wouldn't know about that in California.

There's no fires out there. We're good out here. Things are cool. That has nothing to do with why Daniel is leaving California. Nothing to do with it. So what would a better system be? Would it be that they were not to volunteer, that there was a budget to fund firefighting? Yeah, and this does not make me popular because a lot of volunteer firefighters are militantly proud. When you listen to that NPR show, you'll hear the other two guys who are on there are just like, I do not want to be paid. And I'm like, I get that you don't want to be paid.

But unless we have a national paid fire service, maybe not tomorrow, but five, ten years, the house that burns is going to be your own. It's going to be a problem. And it's just getting worse. And I'm starting to ring the bell on it. It's going to be a problem. And it's just getting worse. And I'm starting to ring the bell on it. It's not cool. And also, the other thing too is, look, the fire service, we're tied up pretty tight with the police.

So there's a lot of baggage there, especially with the young people that we need to recruit. And so I don't have a solution, but the conversation needs to get started. And it's happening in New York State a little, but it needs to be happening nationally. That's what I'm pushing for. Yeah. Amen. Amen. So that was something, I think that was one of the first climate horror scenarios that really popped into my brain and stuck there was the idea that it gets hotter there's more fire like wildfires there's more

wildfires like belching shit into the air which isn't like the main cause of climate change but it could it can't be good for it doesn't help yeah it doesn't help especially when you're not doing anything else to address climate change and then it creates this kind of vicious cycle just i'd be curious to hear more from you about just what climate change looks like from inside the world of firefighting. I mean, people think about fires, but I'll give you a perfect example. Right now, there's a massive hurricane hitting in Florida. And it's sending unbelievable rains up here. My pager has been going off all day.

We have floods. We have wires down. We have car accidents. Nothing's burning, right? But you got to remember, the firefighters do a lot more than fight fires. My pager's going off. Jack, I can't go. I have a job.

I have a job. You're talking to us. I get off work. There's somebody on top of their car about to be swept away, you're like talking to us i hope that's not true taking a break off from work i will be able to start answering my pager in the evening and when those calls start coming in but also keep this in mind i train part-time firefighting like one time somebody i can't remember there's a party or something called it unskilled labor i knocked this dude out like what are you talking about?

Like, we have to know everything from tying knots to running equipment to binding wounds to calming people down to building construction to the physics of fire. I mean, there is so much to know. And I'm training on nights and weekends part time. You know, if I was a paid full time professional and this is the only thing I had to think about, how much better at this job would I be? And this is an important job. I mean, look, I say in the Slate article, most of the time when I screw something up, it's okay.

Some of the time when I screw something up, somebody dies. Like this stuff is serious. And the thing is, the thing that's so frustrating about it is that this decline of volunteerism, I definitely feel like I'm screaming into the clouds or something. Nobody cares. I talk about this stuff. And we always

have to wait until it's a crisis. I mean, did you guys get the haze from Canada in LA? You did, didn't you? No, we didn't get a haze. From Canada? Maybe Northern California did. I think some of San Francisco

certainly did. Daniel, you are going to love it here when you come out of it, man. It looked like Mars. I am not kidding. I remember. I was in dust storms in Iraq and I came out my door and I was like oh this looks familiar

and like how much of that do we need before we're like huh we might want to take this seriously and a lot of that stuff we've talked before about how Joe Biden's like

well you know we need to fund the police more because they're our psychiatrists they're our you know and like lists all these jobs that fall to the police because they're not funded publicly but we've also talked about the idea that like some of the jobs that we currently throw to the police can be done by you know skilled labor that is does not have a gun you know shocker so i don't know i i guess i hadn't really put volunteer firefighters into that category until this conversation and that's on me i just thought about you jack like this is not something we go around teaching people,

which is why I'm very, very lucky. I have a small public platform, and I'm able to use that to really drum up an issue that I really care about. But what this has also pointed out is that I'm the kind of person, when you invite me to a party and you want to talk about something light, I'm going to ruminate. And you should not invite me because it's going to get dark it's going to get serious and by the time i walk out of there you are going to be so depressed yes and that's

what we're here for that's right yeah similar i i think people expect a certain thing from somebody who works in comedy and then i'm'm like, yeah, maybe not always. What is something, Mike, do you think is overrated? So overrated is us. We are overrated. I am so sick of our faces and our opinions. I have said, and I say this on an NPR show, the only thing anybody means,

no matter what they say on social media, is look at me, look at me. Look at me And this is a question I have been trying so hard to tangle with because we have a fucking opinion on absolutely everything Now you will find no more intractable foe Vladimir Putin than me and you will find no greater pro-ukrainian partisan and Every time I see someone flying the Ukrainian flag, I want to bring a map of Eastern Europe with the names of the countries blacked out over to them and say, will you please show me Ukraine? And we all know that 99.9% of them will not be able to do it. Can you tell me the difference between the Don and the Zaprosian Gossips? That's really important to who the

Ukrainian people are, but you've got a strong opinion on what to who the ukrainian people are but you've got a strong opinion on what's wrong and that stuff because we sell our asses out here right if you if you go viral for like some of us literally stay again i said some of us literally well yeah selling our asses out here sorry to interrupt dan has a massive uh following on only fans it was a terrible joke but yes please subscribe my onlyFans. But you go viral for lighting a firecracker in your ass. You're set. You could be those what's up guys walking around.

So we are so incentivized to commoditize, to sign our name, and center ourselves. And I keep thinking about for what you guys do, and for what I do. We do public-facing work. We can't not use social media. And a lot of the time we are selling ourselves. And comedy is so personal. I just shot a spot for the History Channel. They didn't just

pick me because of my historical expertise. They picked me because of my look, right? So how do you do that? How do you center the work? What am I doing here? Instead of crossing that line into, look at me, I'm trying to turn yourself into a brand. And I don't have a solution to that. But that whole culture, which we can all be forgiven for buying into because it's what's for dinner. That is the thing that is the most overrated and the thing I'm most sick of in this world. It's the only thing on the plate. It's the only thing that's for dinner.

Yeah. In a lot of respects. It's tough. What's something you think is underrated? Underrated is saying, I don't know. Underrated is admitting that there is a limit to what you are able to be certain about. And as an historian, this is critical.

So you will see, hopefully you saw in the bronze lie, that I present sources and then I go, and here's what I think happened based on those sources. And I think like most historians that come out there and they go, the Spartans were this, or, you know, this is what happened here. And I'm always sitting here being like, motherfucker, there is no way you could be sure about that based on the data you have. And I think historians don't want to do it because look, dude, if we keep saying, I don't

know, what the hell do you need us for? You could do your own research, like Alex Jones, you know, what do you need us for? But the truth is what, what, what is our job?

Our job is to be the walking cliff notes, man. I went ahead and read through Kennedy's and Xenophon and Herodotus and went to museums and read all these boring historical journals so that you don't have to. Now I can come here and explain it to you, give you my opinion. But it is an opinion.

And that ability to present expertise and be like, yeah, I'm an expert on this stuff, but man, I don't know everything. I mean, look, Robert McNamara was an expert on defense of foreign policy, and Vietnam didn't work out so well, did it? Why would it happen? Okay.

Fog of War is an amazing documentary. Yeah, more and more I think that the way you write, the way that people who are kind of forward-facing with that caveat of we think, I think people sense the truth in that

more than... Yeah, I remember reading historians and it being... You can tell that their editor was like, your voice is so authoritative, we love it. And it's like, well, speaking authoritatively on something that happened 3,000 years ago is probably misleading. Like just to say the least, I have a great quote from my coauthor and mentor and dear friend,

Michael, Dr. Michael Livingston. I really hope folks will check out his work. His last book is as in core. He's a medievalist. He's amazing. And he once told me that as in a story,

you have got to be committed to getting it right, not being right. And that is something I have carried with me into the rest of my life. It is one of the most powerful things I've ever heard. Now, this episode is not about first contact or UFOs, but you were on the contact documentary. And I was going to find a way to shoehorn this in anyways, but I do think coverage of UFOs and what's out there and what all the data means is a place where this very thing is somewhat important and missing a lot of the time. It's like, well, do we know?

We don't we actually don't know what all this means. We don't. I think that's what's interesting about it is that it's hard to find a definitive answer, given all the clashing facts and videos and eyewitness testimony that we've seen. What is your take on that as As a part-time historian, how do you think about the UFOs? Specifically UFOs you're talking? Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, I think that 99%

of the most convincing stuff, including the Nemitz Carrier Group stuff, like it's just not, there's no there there. Really? Oh, absolutely. And in fact, you know look i'll probably uh discovery's not gonna be thrilled with me for saying this but one of the things when you do reality tv they put one minute on for every hour that they shoot you know they can make

you say anything and mike and i went in there we were like this is bullshit this is not true and we went ahead and there were a couple of things in there that we really were stumped on. If you look at the episode where there was soil that was rejecting water, we were like, this is, we don't know what this is. But there were a lot of things in there where we were like, this is nonsense. And when we watched the show, they were like, they cut it. They cut it to sell the story they wanted to sell. Now, does that mean that I don't believe in aliens and UFOs? No, absolutely not. That's not a responsible position to take. I certainly would not be shocked at all if we find things in the future. There was an incredible article about poison gas emanations that we just detected and radio signals that cannot be

explained. So there's definitely the possibility out there but in terms of the mystique and swagger that that discovery portrayed in that show i mean no way but i'll say this it's funny because all look i try to be a serious historian and all of these fans of my work will come to me and be like how could you do this how could you do that ancient alien show and my answer was motherfucker i got 12 million people watching me yeah one percent of those people go look at my history i just reached more people than you will ever reach in your entire career i think that trade-off is worth it also tv is a blast it's the most fun thing you can do. I love it. That's why I just did this spot for History Channel.

I want to keep doing it. Well, gosh, I guess I should warn networks. Eventually, if you try to make me say bullshit, eventually I'm going to tell the truth. They were just cutting it. You were like, I think that... It was just... The Nimitz class carrier is sense.

You said you think it's sense okay i mean you're not you're not far off jack really not far off right all right well we're gonna have to have you back to explain the nimitz carrier stuff because that that's one of the ones that i'm like damn let me let me give you an example there's one scene scene where you will see a UFO go from a completely stationary position and break off to the left. That is a bead of water off the floor camera lens. Mike and I, that's what it is.

It's not a UFO. And then there's this other scene where like, my God, it's hovering. And it's like, no, dude, the camera's on gimbals. And it's rotating, so it looks like it's hovering. It's moving. Oh, interesting. All right.

Interesting. Let's take a quick break, and we will come back and talk about The Bronze Lie. We'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths

between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold

and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote,

what is it, like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In a galaxy far, far away. or wherever you get your podcasts. across the stars, discovering the wonders of the universe one episode at a time. We'll talk about life, love, laughter, and why you should never argue with your co-pilot. Especially when she's always right.

Right. And if we hit turbulence, just blame it on Mercury retrograde. Or Emily's questionable space piloting skills. Hey, join us on In Our Own World for cosmic conversations, stellar laughs, and super corny dad jokes. Listen to In Our Own World as a part of the My Cultura podcast network available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't worry, we promise to avoid any black holes. Most of the time. and we're back and mike until reading your book i hadn't realized how much the spartan myth is just fucking everywhere like i i of course remember the movie The 300? I recognize that it has been incredibly,

like has just stuck around and becomes this like myth and this meme that like Trump riffs on. And I definitely at the time was like, man, there's some weird ideas in this fucking movie at the time. But yeah, as you point out out like i hadn't really put it together oh yeah there's so many high school sports mascots college sports mascots and it

feels like a lot of the most famous names in history are kind of obsessed with this myth and so you went in started kind of poking at it and questioning whether spartans are the greatest warriors to to ever live as as depicted in 300 and elsewhere and when you wrote about that in the daily beast in the new republic you started getting death threats so i kind of just wanted to start there because I think that drives home what is important here? How much energy below the surface is riding

on this shit? Who are the types of people who you think are threatening to kill you over this? What are they so mad about? Well, let me be clear. I think the types of people who are threatening to kill me with this, I can't prove it. They're probably 14-year-olds

in their parents' basement. I wasn't too terribly frightened. But I think that, first of all, I think that the Spartan myth, it isn't just the far right. It's all of us. Our whole conception

of what it means to be a man, that you endure hardship, that you stoically and without complaint, you know, stand in the gap. Like that idea comes from this ancient Greek concept of erected. It's conveyed to us through the Spartan myth. This whole idea of being a strong silent type, being a man of few words that doesn't exactly use the word Spartan, it's tied to that. So it's not just like the far right. Although that was what i sought to come after with that book because it was really bothering but it really is it's in the air man

like it's it's how we came up and i think that's important to recognize but the the best story about this other than the death threats is mighty fucking serdovich that dude wow he posted on twitter to his one million plus followers back on the twitter we should be careful it wasn't x uh he goes this dude is so afraid of the bronze age mindset he's talking about me that he wrote a whole book about and he tweets a picture of the cover of my book to his one million followers great thank you and he And he's tweeting out the cover of my book to 1 million people. And I'm like, if even 1% of them raged by it,

and they did, Jack, it was a very good day for me. Wow. So the far right's reaction to it. But what does it say? It says that this, to them, is a religion. It's an article of faith. Right?

This symbol. So to us, it's what is 300, it's a movie. To them, it's the article of faith right this symbol it's so to us it's what is 300 it's a movie to them it's the cross man like that's that's serious i think yeah we we end up talking about that more and more that as religion has faded in our day-to-day lives in america like things are replacing that, that that's not exactly how we view those things. But it comes up when we're talking about the unprecedented power of like Taylor Swift or the myths in the Star Wars universe and why people view, you know, a Star Wars movie with a woman protagonist as like an affront to the very core of their identity that I think that's right. I think more and more the stakes on these kind of non-religious like things we view as pop culture are actually like life and death

to people and like their entire personas are shot through with it down to a spiritual level. Absolutely. And the Spartan myth plays on this really great human insecurity. Dude, you are not good enough. You are too weak. You are not tough. You cry too much.

You're not working hard enough to get after your goals. Look at these people. Look at these people who could withstand any privation. You're not working hard enough to get after your goals. Look at these people. Look at these people who could withstand any privation. You would die rather than surrender. Be like them. And honestly, that idea of a religious avatar, that's in almost every faith. That's Jesus Christ. That's the prophet Muhammad. That's the Buddha himself, right? If you don't know how to act, just watch these people and act like them and the spartans in the same thing yeah so i mean there's some pretty straightforward ways pretty straightforward

like aspects of the spartan myth that uh we see in 300 that you kind of go back and debunk like there's the myth of how they treat children who aren't like who aren't like born with a six-pack and like immediately able to like do 20 20 pull-ups when you like hang them over a cliff that they like throw them over into the sea and i feel i feel like that's a very potent part of the myth because it's like well they did it so what are you going to do but at the same time it's also like a profound endorsement of eugenics right just right but also jack this is the important thing they didn't do it they didn't yeah exactly they love their children and they raised them and there's all these examples of it king King Nagesalas II, who was one of the most famous warrior kings of

Sparta, was born with a club foot. He was limping. It's just bullshit. It's hot butter bullshit. And the thing that's so frustrating is that all it takes to stick a pin in this balloon

is you read the sources. Like, I'm reading the same shit that's been available for 2,500 years. Where the fuck is everybody? You know, like, you know, all I did was keep score. Like none of this stuff is a secret.

And the thing is, people have been talking about it. Like I'm certainly not new to this conversation. I'm just the first person to systematically sit down and in a pop narrative aimed at regular people, lay it out in a book. That's all. It's not it's not like I said, it's not rocket science. Yeah. Yeah.

Meanwhile, Trump just started like openly saying in campaign speeches that illegal immigrants are poisoning the blood of America. It just feels very kind of everywhere and like it's not going away. Right. And Jack, like I hear the desperation in your voice and I feel it too, man. Like I cannot believe we're back here. And that is part of what I did with this book. Like this was an act of desperation. Like what can I do?

Where can I strike a blow? You know, and this was one of the few places where i felt i could i can speak the truth about something i care yeah and you did learn the languages which i was gonna do but then i saw that you did it so i don't i appreciate you doing that i'm happy i'm happy to cover you i'm not uh not to do that now. So I hadn't realized that one of the things that is notable about Spartans from a historical perspective is that they didn't leave that much. It's called Lacana. Worship of Spartans has the same root word as laconic, right? Because they weren't like giving a

lot of information one one of the details that i found particularly interesting is like they they seemed to have a sense of branding like you mentioned this idea that they kept mystery about themselves by not fighting the same opponent more than once, which feels wildly impractical. Well, but also keep in mind that that is the legend. That's the legend. We certainly know they did fight the same opponent more than once. In fact, their repeated battles against the city-state of Thebes, which modern day is known as Theba,

they wound up being defeated by tactics because the Thebans, I think, had a really good idea of what they were going to put into the battlefield. It's always hard to play an opponent the second time, as anybody who follows sports would know. But just the idea that they would only fight an opponent once suggests... Even the

idea that they would put that out there about them suggests that they're like the Harlem Globetrotters of war. That they just are just... Yeah, we kind of put on a show. We're like the Harlem Globetrotters of war that they just like, are just, yeah, we, we kind of put on a show.

We're like a road show, but like, you can't, can't let you see it more than once. So I look and I can't prove this, but if, if I had to, if I had to give my educated guess,

I would say that they didn't start that man. The Athenians started that. And one of the things I did in the new Republic piece is show that like, we don't have any writing from Spartans, man. The Athenians started that. And one of the things I did in the New Republic piece is show that we don't have any writing from Spartans. None. It's all fanboy stuff from outside. It's Xenophon, who is this huge Spartan. This dude

loves the Spartans. And Thucydides, who was an enemy of them, they write this legendary stuff. And I think somewhere along the way, the Spartans looked around and were like, holy we got stuff going here we need to lean into this uh this is working out i think that's probably what happened yeah it feels like throughout it is this fantasy of being able to like you say at a certain point, like people aren't machines in the book. But it seems to be the fantasy of the Spartan myth, like at the time and of like fascism in general,

like turn humans into beautiful war machines, take away the softness, the fallibility, the inconsistency of humanity. But of course that's a fantasy because that is the human condition. Like all of those things are part of the human condition. You nailed it. But it seems like the ideal of the fake Spartan society

that made its way down to us over the decades was both their fantasy and our fantasy. So there is like something universal and powerful about it, which is what makes it so kind of terrifyingly powerful and so terrifying that it's you know being allowed to rise back up because it's kind of it's kind of always there we just had a sense of how dangerous and powerful it was for so long and now we're back to a place where it's being allowed to just kind of run rampant again across the world. Well, sort of, and being, being, being

marshaled to a specific political end, like here is this, what icons can we use? Right. You know, where, you know, look, we, as the modern Trump movement, you know, raising the cross is probably not going to work for us here. Although he's popular with evangelicals too. I just do not understand that, but okay. Sure. So,

but we can pick this up, man. I mean that video, I don't know if you've seen it. It's incredible. Uh, there's a video with it's 300. It's the scene where the Persian messengers are kicked into that pit.

And, uh, you know, this is, and it's Trump's head over, like glued on to, into that pit. And, you know, this is my time. And it's Trump's head over, like, glued onto. And it's Soros and Obama getting kicked around.

Man, by the time I found that video, and this was years ago, it had been watched five million times. It is amazing how powerful this stuff is. Yeah. And, of course, that movie came out in 2006

when like obama was first becoming a thing and you know has gained popularity and man they love to put trump's head on the body of just like a ripped soldier don't't they? They sure do. God. Look, I've been very, very lucky not to see him without a shirt on, but I am pretty sure, Jack, he don't look like that.

All right. Let's, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and keep busting this myth. We'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult.

And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high-control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives. Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes. Each week we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get

the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it like you miss 100 percent of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. It's me, Katie Couric. If you follow me on social media, you know I love to cook or at least try, especially alongside some of my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyt, Alison Roman, and of course, Ina Garten and Martha Stewart.

So I started a free newsletter called Good Taste that comes out every Thursday, and it's serving up recipes that will make your mouth water. Think a candied bacon Bloody Mary, tacos with cabbage slaw, curry cauliflower with almonds and mint, and cherry slab pie with vanilla ice cream to top it all off. I mean, yum. I'm getting hungry. But if you're not sold yet, we also have kitchen tips like a foolproof way to grill the perfect burger and must-have products like the best cast iron skillet to feel like a chef in your own kitchen. All you need to do is sign up at katiecouric.com slash goodtaste. That's K-A-T-I-E-C-O-U-R-I-C dot com slash goodtaste. I promise your taste buds will be happy you did.

And we're back. Okay, so this one is kind of unrelated, but it's a thing that whenever i read about or hear about like ancient greek city-states going to war with one another i think in my mind for most of my life that those were like massive armies of people but aren't weren't the communities fairly small? I think it varied. You see figures of 10,000 thrown around all the time. Certainly the armies are bigger in some battles and smaller in others. I know of phalanx-on-phalanx battles of a few hundred. I certainly compared to modern armies, modern professional armies, yeah, it's a totally different game in terms of the number of personnel that can be marshaled.

But it does vary. I mean, we do have battles of tens of thousands, 20,000 that we see. It's quite a few. Yeah. It's just like the idea of, like, how many people were in Sparta at the time when they were at their height? Like, just in the society in general? Here we go, Jack, and I will tell you I don't know.

I can find out, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend I have an answer to that question because I don't. I'm a military historian focusing on this. One important aspect of ancient Greek warfare that I do think is worth mentioning that people are very confused about specifically when it comes to the Spartans is this idea of professionalism is that the average

ancient greek hoplite which is what we call the you know the heavy infantrymen with the bronze armor and the shield and the spear that was not what they did man they were farmers or they were leather workers or whatever it was they were doing, mostly farmers. And the horn would sound, and you would run to your olive shed, and you would grab a rusty old spear and a shield that your grandfather had hand-dead. And you would muster in the square with no training and almost no command. And the way they fought, this phalanx, this block of dudes with shields overlapping, was designed so that amateurs could pull it off. And that belief that professional warriors of any kind,

uh-uh, and certainly not the Spartans either. Huh. So did they just get the reputation through sheer tyranny of will, of people wanting that to be a real thing? No, no. I mean, they did one thing different. So in most ancient Greek city-states,

you have populations of young people, right? They grow up, they start jockeying for power, and you send them off to found a colony. Here you go. Go get a boat. Go make a town over there. Do your own thing. And that's how most Greeks dealt with that,

but not the Spartans, and largely because they weren't on a seafaring people. So they were the first, or maybe not the first, but among the first to subjugate their neighbors. And when they subjugated them, they enslaved them in a caste-based slave system, which is to say, your kids will be born and die as slaves. And that was almost unique. The Thessalians did it too.

And because those slaves were doing all the agricultural work and the housework, well, the knights of Spartan society, who we call the moioi, they were free. They were free to, and people think they were free to train for war, but we have no evidence that they actually trained for war. We see them playing sports. In fact, Aristotle tells us that the Spartans were tougher than other Greeks in the field, not because they trained harder, but because they trained at all. not because they trained Harvard, but because they trained at all. And the reason they were able to do that was because there was a whole society of slaves

and on all their shit form. Wow. But just digging back into the film, it's so thoroughly coded with eugenics. The person who dooms them is this hunchback who is mad at them because he wants to get to fight, I guess. And they're like, or just like join their society. And they're like, this ain't no everyone gets a trophy ass society.

We are Sparta. And then he's like, all right, well, then I'll cheat and like get you all killed. And like, so that's on top of the babies all being thrown into into the ocean for not being able to do push-ups it's nonsense it's nonsense yeah the whole thing that effialtis which by the way is the modern greek word for nightmare that's how fucking famous this dude is this dude who never exists is is that it's a secret path across caledromo i have been to caledromo i found every path over that mountain in a few days there's no secrets there and you're going to tell me that xerxes the king of ackerman and persia was the biggest and most sophisticated empire in the world

didn't do the basic reconnaissance to find the paths over the mountain of course not they knew and they hired local Malian guides, the people who lived there, to show them the way. And that, what was considered a betrayal by the Greeks, right? These fuckers. They went over and worked for the Persians. Who the hell could blame them? In a lot of cases, you have a much better life working for Xerxes than you did

for Leonidas or any other Greek king. That became this figure of Ephialtes, this deformed hunchback who was a betrayer. No, no. This was good intelligence on the part of the Persians. Yeah.

There's a part where you talk about a poet having to emphasize these values because they need these values to actually be held up. They need them to be more i remember writing about this back in at cracked that like a lot of the samurai myth some of the misconceptions about samurai are based on like the laws of the samurai that were written because samurai did not like the the idea that samurai were super loyal to their master is based on these laws, which are,

were put in place because they were not loyal to their master. Like they were free. It was like the equivalent of, you know, a modern day professional athlete. Like they're like, no, I'm going to go to whoever pays me money because that's.

And so they wrote these laws to be like, you must be the most loyal and it's like reading the high school student handbook and being like man those high school students in the united states in the 70s were incredibly obedient it turns out it's like wait what the fuck are you talking about it's like yeah the student the student conduct code you know you you should not plagiarize wow man these people never plagiarize yeah yeah but it seems like there's some of that happening in in sparta as well right oh absolutely you're exactly right and to that point on the samurai the the tv show shogun is about to come out which is a fictionalization

of the actual real life shogun tokugawa y Yasu. And his conquest of Japan turns on a betrayal. It turns on switching sides. So all of that loyal unto death stuff, I guess there's some exceptions, right? Yeah, turns out. But what are some of the values that get emphasized with Spartans that weren't actually there beyond throwing their children over.

Right, and I want to be clear here. One of the things that kind of bugged me about this book is I absolutely wrote this book to deflate this icon for the Mike Cernovichs of the world and for the real far-righters. But what's happened because of the erosion of discourse in this country is

that a lot of people took that book and were like, yeah, the Spartans suck. And like trying to use it to clobber people. And I'm like, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no. The Spartans did not suck. They were humans, right? They were extraordinary sometimes.

And they were lame sometimes. Like we all are. And that's the thing I'm driving at. So when we look at the poetry of Tertteus that's the poet you're talking about and the things he extols certainly some sparkies were not doing those things he was not exhorting them to press to one of the things the values don't get hit in the back right that means you're running away if you're young don't let the old people fight get out there there and fight. Get up in your enemy's face. Put your shield on his shield, your foot next to his foot, close enough to kiss him,

and do the job there. These are the kinds of things that the Spartans are legendary for. Did they all do it? Hell no. But some of them probably did. And that's important to remember too. And the poetry is so, what makes me crazy is that there's so much that's fascinating about the Spartans. Like, look, 300, Jack. It's about a disaster. They lost. You know, all these frigging NRA guys come and take them. You know, like, come and take their weapons.

The great quote of the Anatoly. Jack, Xerxes came and took them. After three days, he cut that dude's head off. He took their weapons away. And he paraded his head on a stick. So that's the cry of a loser. Why are you shouting that? Why not talk about real Spartan successes?

Why not talk about the times they really were extraordinary? And that poetry of Tertius, I'm so glad you brought it up. It's beautiful. And it talks about real valor. It talks about how to be a warrior and admitting that not everybody lived up to it doesn't make it any less extraordinary and the fact that for most people they will never even know about to taste except listening to you on a popular podcast talk about it it breaks my heart all they know about is this freaking bigoted shitty movie which tells this crap story about people who never existed

yeah we're going back to the movie you know 300 is not it's by far not the first movie to glorify soldiers or this kind of training style or fighting in a way that you know bends history a little bit or a lot of it and just portrays this lifestyle that has, you know, been co-opted by right wing people or just in general, bad actors, as it were. And what I'm kind of curious about is, I know you are a real history historian, maybe not a pop culture historian. But what do you think is the inflection point for this kind of narrative that allowed 300 to exist? Like before this, we had movies like Gladiator. We had movies like Braveheart.

We had movies, now, of course, not the exact same thing, but these movies that portray warfare, portray this kind of very like, you know, powerful, strong, proud warrior fighting for their people, et cetera. What is the inflection point that allows 300 to exist and why isn't that the thing that people held on to why is it spartans these days yeah that is a really fascinating question and and like i don't know that i have an answer for it but i do see one

positive sign in a pop culture reference and it is john snow fighting i don't know if you remember uh in game of thrones that scene with shields pressing in and all of them being crushed together and the absolute bloody futile chaos the what george rr martin evoked throughout game of thrones both in the books and in the television show the capricious randomness of how ned stark was killed this idea that these great events and the turnings of them are so chaotic and random, and that violence and the unpredictability of it and what it does to people, that is a change I'm seeing. I mean, there have been books before, All's Quiet on the Western Front. There's that famous poem, Dulce et Decorum Est. People have been talking before about how truly horrible war is. And I speak as someone who's been rocketed and shot.

And I certainly look, you know, I went to Iraq, a true believer, right? Like I went there to do something and had a firsthand experience of how futile that was and how when you introduce violence as a means of policy and try to change people with it how that is completely not going to do what you want it to do and not useful and i do see something in the pop culture that's changing and as we live through gaza as we live through ukraine as we live through africa on, you know, and like, it looks like the Strait of Taiwan might be next, right? With what China's doing with the Philippines. There is, I feel a shift in the public's tolerance for that myth. And I see that in the push for a ceasefire right now.

And the sickness with Hillary Clinton coming out there and going, well, you can't have a ceasefire and a whole monastery group and people being like, all right, well, that's nice for you in an air-conditioned office. There's people dying out there. How about that? And that is something I didn't hear around me. I never heard it. Or if I heard it, I heard it from peaceniks and hippies.

And now I hear it from everybody. So maybe the inflection point is now, Dan. And if so, man, God, look, I have spent my entire life either at war or studying war. And you will not find someone more committed to ending it. Like, it is just an absolute evil. Amen. Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining us on The Daily Zeitgeist, for writing the book. And yeah, where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff?

Yeah, well, thanks so much for having me. I'm easy. My name is spelled M-Y-K-E-C-O-L-E. So if you go to mikecole.com, spelled that way, you'll pull up my website. I am using social media. Look, social media,

you got to use it when you're in public facing work, but it's poised. I don't care. Oh, Threads is going to be better than X. Threads are going to be better than X. And here's all the people I'm going to block. Threads is not going to be better than X because the problem is us. And we Oh, Threads is going to be better than X. Threads are going to be better than X. And here's all the people I'm going to block. Threads is not going to be better than X because the problem is us.

And we're on Threads. So you will find me in all of these places and variations of that name. X, Facebook, Threads, Instagram, as Mike Cole. But don't expect me to post much. And certainly don't expect me to weigh in on political and social issues about which I know nothing. There you go. Is there a work of media that you've been enjoying? Yes. So I would like to direct people to the Instagram account of an author named Christian Cameron, and you can find him at at Christian, C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N underscore Cameron, C-A-M-E-R-O-N underscore author, A-U-T-H-O-R.

The reason I want you to check him out is not just for his writing, and he paints toy soldiers, and he's a total nerd, but he is a real reenactor. He is a guy who gets every stitch of thread, every scrap of metal and rivet in the armor that he wears exactly right. And he goes out there and he fights. And if you want to understand how ancient medieval people fought, you can read every book in the world. You can go to every museum in the world. But until you put on that gear and you get toe to toe to someone, you will

not be able to ask to answer the critical questions. And he does it and he does it right. And if you see those pictures, you will be looking into the past. And it is amazing. you see those pictures, you will be looking into the past. And it is amazing. Do you give an example of like one of the things that you feel like you figure out from the reenactment? Because you kind of mentioned that in the book. And I that was kind of new to me, I wasn't really familiar with yet. The idea of using historical reenactments to actually do research. Sure. So one of the big questions among ancient warfare nerds, I don't think anybody else cares about this, is this idea that when the phalanx clashes, did they push shield to shield

and push against each other? Or did they stand off and fence with their spears? And that actually makes a big difference in how those battles were fought. And then you can check that against the written sources and tell if these guys are full of shit or not. Well, when you get behind a shield, I have discovered some people disagree with me, but this has been my experience, man, I do not want to be three feet away from you. I want to be right up there where I can use my ass and where my face isn't exposed because I'm up close. Like when you're, what happens when you're boxing with someone and you feel outmatched, you grapple, man man you don't stand back and get punched in the face right and the point is these kinds of little questions you can only answer them by doing them and for years professional historians scholars phds they really and they don't do it

anymore but they used to really look down their nose at nerds making the armor what are you guys doing this is this is cosplay no no no it is not cosplay it is history and that account i just gave you christian cameron author that is the best example of it i know all right amazing daniel yes sir thank you so much for joining where can people find you uh follow you and what's the work of media you've been enjoying honestly you can't uh i deactivated twitter i'm barely using instagram anymore and i am divorcing myself from social media entirely. So I would have preferred if you didn't find me. To answer Mike's question from, it's not really a question from earlier, but when you're talking about being in a public facing kind of area, or a public facing business, like we all are, I have, and I'm very lucky to be in the position that I am right here. I love working with Jack. I love working at iHeart. I love making podcasts. And I found that using my position now to platform people who would like to use their voices and be out there is the best use of my work in forward facing media. instead of being like here's what i think about something i'm in the business of here's what this person thinks about something and trying to do that as opposed to saying whatever the hell i think because truly it doesn't matter because what i care about is smash burgers and who is

currently winning dancing with the stars even though the season just ended so honestly my opinions are so irrelevant it was sochi gomez did you see the uh do you see the uh the um for dr strange in the multiverse of madness she plays um i can't i literally can't remember the marvel superheroes name because there's so many at this point i can't remember but she was in that and she was great and she was really good on dancing with the stars anyway that's not the point a piece of social media or a piece of media that i have been liking that is not that is the new miyazaki film the boy and the heron go see it go see a movie go see an animated picture go to the movies and participate in that I have been liking that is not that is the new Miyazaki film, The Boy and the Heron.

Go see it. Go see a movie. Go see an animated picture. Go to the movies and participate in the culture of Japanese animation, of Hayao Miyazaki, an incredible director. Go see the movie. And if you haven't had yourself a nice meal, go to someone who's cooking food on the street and go get it. If you're happening to be in Los Angeles, go to brothers, cousins tacos. My favorite taco stand in Los Angeles, because I will be deeply missing it when I leave for the East coast. But yeah, other than that,

go support your local business, go see a movie and then go follow Mike. There you go. Thank you. My pleasure. You can find me on Twitter at Jack underscore O'Brien liking things like, uh, this tweet from Jesse McLaren who tweeted shout out to the Beach Boys for landing on the festive lyric,

Christmas comes this time each year. And then Andy Ryan tweeted, two elderly English ladies greeting each other. And it's aloe vera and evening primrose oil. Aloe vera, evening primrose oil. I justoe vera evening primrose oil. I just enjoyed that. Nice. Good, wholesome

Twitter fun. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website, dailyzeitgeist.com

where we post our episodes and our footnotes. Footnotes. Where we link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode as well as a song that we think you might enjoy.

DJ Daniel Goodman, is there a song that you would recommend to people? There always is. And it might be a little much for some people, but since I rarely get to come here, I'm going to sing the song of drum and bass that I love so much. A British group, Chase and Status, just released a new album called Too Rough, Volume 1. And one of the songs in that album called On the Block

is such a massive tune. I am just in my car, gritting my teeth, driving the speed limit, but with my hands tightly gripped on the steering wheel, just banging my head. So if you are into something that is gonna keep you up at night or power you through a long drive

or get your workout going, whatever it is that you need something driving to get you going, go listen to Chase and Status' new album, Too Rough, Volume 1. The song On the Block is a real, like, ooh, it'll get you moving song. So anyway, that's my recommendation. On the Block by Chase and Status. Awesome. We'll get off to that in the footnotes. The Daily Zeitgeist is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you go to listen to podcasts. That's going to do it for us this morning. We are back this afternoon to tell you what is trending. And we will talk to you all then. Bye. Bye. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult.

And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me for I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry, Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports.

Listen to the making of a rivalry, Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do,

like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.