The Daily Zeitgeist - Extremism 2024: What To Expect 02.06.24

Episode Date: February 6, 2024

In episode 1619, Jack and Miles are joined by a Digital Research Analyst at The Institute for Strategic Dialogue, Sabine Lawrence, to discuss…Election Denialism, The Good News? No, Jan 6 On The Horizon…, So What Is On The Horizon? And more! Strong Cities Network LISTEN: Shake Me by AKASee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me for I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese.

Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have

changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pardenti

and I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation,

then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, the internet and welcome to season 324 episode 2 of Dirt Nailies Eye Geist!

Seductive. A production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. America. It's Tuesday, February 6th, 2024. Oh, boy. This is one of the furthest we've recorded in advance.

Well, guess what? You know what it is? Shout out to all my chopsticks users because it's National Chopsticks Day. It's Safer Internet Day in the U.S. Not sure what that means. It's National Fro Chopsticks Day. It's Safer Internet Day in the U.S. I'm not sure what that means. It's National Froyo Day. And, yeah, that's it. Froyo's still out here. Froyo, ever had Froyo with chopsticks?

That's all I do on this day to celebrate. It's an act in speed eating, because once that shit melts, you can't do anything with a chopstick. Maybe you could, like, you know how a cat's tongue can like kind of scoop it and like basically defy gravity? Maybe with the right kind of speed and movement of the chopsticks, you could like get it kind of flowing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or do like the way dogs drink, you know, by curling their tongue backwards to scoop the water in their mouth.

Have you seen that video, Jack? Yes, and I think that's what I was thinking of. I just have trouble telling cats and dogs apart. Well, that's why you have to cut that lingual frenulum. You know what I mean? Because you could really lap that water up like a canine. Well, my name is Jack O'Brien, a.k.a. He's my Jackie Pye.

Pasty white ass about ten miles wide. Look so good with those grown man thighs. Sweet Jackie Pye. Courtesy of La Caroni on the Discord. Man, ask a guy out before you sing. Write a song about his sweet

dump truck ass like that. La Caroni. Damn. Are we dating? No, thank you for that. As always, and I'm thrilled to be joined, as always, by my co-host, Mr. Miles Gray. It's Miles Gray, a.k.a. Entertain me, tiny dragon. DJ Khaled on the highway.

Wow. When I laid down sheets, I'm dreaming. DJ Khaled on the highway Wow When I laid down the sheets I'm dreaming I had to guest again with Shane Okay, shout out Christy Yamaguchi-Maine Referencing my dreams Seamless They still happen They still happen

I no longer know the lyrics to Tiny Dancer That's how seamless that was Those are the lyrics to Tiny dancer i just that was that those are the lyrics to tiny dancer now well done christy we missed you we miss you yamaguchi main let us like come on man some ak's i know you're busy i know you got i miss the yamaguchi man yeah i miss the all right well miles we're thrilled to be joined in our third seat by a digital research analyst at the Institute for Strategic Dialogue, where she researches online hate, extremism, disinformation in the U.S. It's Sabine Lawrence. Hey, thanks for having me. Welcome, welcome.

Oh, thank you for stopping by. Thank you for stopping by. Thank you for being here on our silly show. Yeah, to talk about serious things, because it's a big year ahead in 2024 from what i hear um what i'm hearing it sounds like people keep saying that and i'm like what like why what's so big what's going on what is it because of the super bowl because yeah they have a super bowl every year i mean i was i was already involved in politics in 2020, and that was probably one of the most stressful years of my life, hands down. It was nonstop.

I think I had like four or five just straight like seven day weeks in the office till one, two in the morning, ordering food, getting rashes from the stress. It was just awful. I can't imagine what this year's going to be. It was mostly just all the prep work all of the um like because i'm researched extremism vaguely then and it was like getting all of the seed lists to get all to get in all the groups to get all the discord chats to kind of make the way so when things kind of popped off yeah yeah when things popped off then like i was in it yeah that's right okay i'm always amazed at like you know people like

you and your colleague jared holt who we've had on the show many times and he was like you got to talk to sabine he got him like of course then if you if you say joe like we we love the work you do but i'm always amazed at like how people get into monitoring extremism like what how what was your journey there like what were you doing like i know you said 2020 is when you start getting into it what were you doing in like 2018 like what was things very different or what was your sort of path into this kind of work uh really funny i actually started doing this as a joke um i was in college 2018 2019 but i was anthropology major i recently switched and incels were like the big laughingstock

punching back to the internet at the time i think um contrapoints had her video on incels and i was like obsessed with it and so for my thesis i was like oh how about what if i did like a funny ethnography on like the inner lives of incels like as a goof for my feet it doesn't matter i'm already gonna graduate and i did it and then i that was december 2019 and then i looked for jobs in 2020 january and i got picked up by gqr which is like a polling consortium and they were looking for researchers who already knew about that kind of under cd underbelly of the internet stuff and i got picked up immediately after that and then worked for the whole election season and i kind of ended up becoming my career path fully on accident yeah

and are you embracing that i know you say like it's on accident but i mean like no that actually i fell in love with the field and the people are really great and it just ended up being a really good mix for me right something tells me you're a pretty good student when you do a thesis as a goof and get away with it. Like, damn, this is really fucking good. Fucking killed that thesis. Maybe you want to do this for a living? Hire them. Yeah.

Yeah. That's amazing. Well, we're going to talk to you in a moment about the upcoming election. That's why people. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. There's an election coming up. That's get it right right yep yep yep we'll talk about that uh how election denialism is still a thing whether or not another january 6th is imminent but before we get into it we do like to get to know our guests a little bit better by asking them, what is something from your search

history, Sabine, that is revealing about who you are or what you're up to? Hmm, that's a great question. I actually, I went on a major deep dive. There was a recent video that came out, I think from Jacob Geller about the Pinocchio stories and history of Pinocchio. So I've been watching a bunch of movies about Pinocchio specifically and like interpretations through different directors and artists. And so I have been like weirdly upset with all the kind of like mannequin-y, I guess, existential statements about life and death and everything. And I've been like going through video essay,

like rabbit holes about that for at least three or four days now. Ooh, tell me me tell me more like so what is the overall thesis that like first captured you on on the subject of pinocchio like what there's more to it than meets the eye yeah i think it's the fact that like it i think i think there's a quote that he says where it's like we cannot fathom a world without the existence of the Pinocchio story. Like we can't imagine it anymore because it the wooden boy, because he ends up being like a kind of vessel of all human sins or like human misbehavior. And the whole morality tale is like how to be not only a good person, but a person. You have to like fully understand him to fully understand how to be a human being it's really really interesting wow so what about jiminy cricket though

i think he's just cute and fun personally okay i was like is there a deeper thing i just love jiminy cricket no jiminy cricket satan you didn? I mean, he's like, come on. He's there tempting. No, I'm just joking. Yeah, in the new Guillermo del Toro Pinocchio. I loved it. Yeah. He, even motherfucker dies and like goes to hell. Yeah, it's amazing.

Spoilers, I guess. Whoa, yo, wait, Pinocchio gold? It's truly like an existentially dense text it's pretty it's pretty wild like i mean there are multiple children deaths within the first half of the film whoa and are they all going to hd double hockey sticks i don't know i guess he doesn't go to and you know what to be honest i watched it on a plane that landed right when he got to hell uh so i haven't completed the film okay okay that's right so i don't know where exactly it goes but the whole thing it's funny because i've been obsessed with death a little bit lately because i'm scared of it and just how much of everything

is just has the preoccupation with our own mortality and impermanence at its heart is is kind of wild like the second you start thinking about something you're like oh yeah that's about death and that's about death and oh yeah that that's also about death but pinocchio pinocchio is a big one you know it's one of the questions like that's a movie that my kids kind of we tried to start watching it they're five and seven they were like yeah kind of over it but i think if they had stuck with it they would have been compelled because they have a lot of questions about death at that at that age you know five and seven like yeah disney was on to something like that did you tell them when you're like wait a second do they did they ask the question will i die will you miles no no like they ask well what about miles he gonna die miles won't die will he

i don't know maybe i remember that i remember like when i had that realization i asked my mom i was like will i like will i die she's like yeah you gonna die I'm gonna die yeah we're all gonna die grandma's gonna die and I was like I remember it fucked me up so bad but that was just sort of that like brute brutal honesty that only an Asian mom can give you at that time just straight

to the face yeah that's a tough one I remember yeah being awake in my bed when I was like seven and just being like, I can't, I can't like conceptualize because I grew up Catholic. And I was just like, eternity like doesn't really make sense because everything else is like finite. And I was like up crying. And my mom was like, in retrospect, I feel so bad for her. She's like, I don't fucking know man

we gotta stop going to mass can't go forever sabine did you have a moment of clarity like that where you got in touch with your own mortality as a child uh i know when i was really little kind of towards when i was like until 10 or 11 I was terrified of almost everything like pathologically afraid of most things and I think for Halloween one year my mom got me a book about um bones and how bones work and there's an image in the middle of it where it's like a human flesh sack like completely limp with no bones in it and it was like this is how you would be if you didn't have any bones in you. Did you know? And that freaked me out so much that I essentially decided to become a skeleton for Halloween.

But it ended up kind of turning, I think because I got to learn something new. And also, I could see that the inherent horror of being alive is sometimes worse than just being dead. And so now I have a really strong love of horror and love of like gothic like themes and like works because i now like knowing how your body can be when you're still alive but it sucks majorly is like death is not though or having no bones just seems so bad right it's also just like yeah i mean like i think in western culture there's just like that's sort of the sort of baseline is be like man death is like so fucked up like oh my god i don't want it don't want it don't want it whereas like culturally in many other

places it's like yeah that's bring it on like it happens and that's just part of what it is that's kind of the deal and use that to sort of motivate you to really enjoy or do as much good as you can well the party's still rocking yeah i mean the whole capitalist system i think at least partially is fueled by an inherent inability to like deal with our own mortality and like so it's like fueled by people trying to outrun death basically which is impossible to outrun. So it's one of the great fuel sources that you can come up with. Create a system of beliefs that thoroughly doesn't tangle with death.

And then people are going to just be going as hard as they possibly can towards trying to consume and acquire their way out of like thinking about it. I mean, when I look at Congress, I don't see that at all. At all. No, they're killing it. No, not at all. Quite, quite literally killing it. Sabine, what is something that you think is overrated? I feel like so I originally went to school for zoology and I ended up having to switch later.

I think people whose favorite animals is a mammal is any mammal. I'm like mammals are super overrated as a favorite animal. The lions, the giraffes, the hippos. I'm an insect girly. Love, love worms. I love polychaete worms that are in the bottom of the ocean. I feel like a lot of animals, most animals aren't mammals. So I feel like they don't ever get enough love or appreciation.

Mammals are always the face of every conservation campaign every save the environment campaign i am personally tired of it wow man and i'm like now i'm like actually challenging myself to be like what would my favorite like non-mammal life form be and the first thing i thought of was like a trilobite yeah i don't know why that was like in my mind i'm like yeah i think i fuck with a trilobite good answer good answer we just had the family feud uh yeah yeah trilobite they're like no nobody's trilobite. They're like, no, nobody's. Trilobite is not on the board. Wait, now I have to look up trilobite. I think I know what it is. It's a fossil. It's now extinct.

Almost like an isopod. Thank you. Isopods are, yeah. I've always been into them. When you bring the ones that exist now, the giant sea bottom roly polies, which I think is the scientific name. I know you went for it. That is the technical term.

The ones that look like roly polies. But like when you take them up and they're like not in the pressure at the like pressure of the bottom of the ocean, they just like blow up. And they're so scary. That's a great answer. That's one of the wildest animals that i've ever seen jack what's your favorite non-mammal animal i mean probably the great white shark yeah i i should have known yeah yeah shocking no one but i've just been you know ever since jaws yeah no but i like whales a lot because of how, like, they're technically mammals,

but so different from humans that, like, they give us a weird look at, like, how different things could have gone. Yeah. They used to be wolves straight up. They were wolves, and then they evolved back into being aquatic. It's crazy. What? They used to be wolves?

Yeah, they used to be. They they used to be um they're like this for like if you look it up there's like an evolution video where it's like yeah the you know animal leaves the the water goes to land becomes like mammal and that's this weird wolf like kind of striped creature and that kind of it ends up being like a primarily a quad hunter and would go back and hunt so often and just living there permanently which is why it has all the same like it has like whales have wrists and like fingers inside their fins because they used to be right because they had right right right that's oh i never even thought about that because whenever you see like a whale skeleton you're like why you got some little digits under

like that right what are you you're doing too much whale but. But now I'm realizing this is wild to look at, Jack. Just this whole evolution of cetaceans. Yeah. The carnivore they used to be. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, they started out like muskrats. And then they just went into the ocean.

And wow. That's pretty wild. Sabine, you're fucking killing it right now fucking me up man fucking up my christmas right now and i love it there when you look at like a bat's wing and you see that it's just a hand like spread out super far and like the whole thing is like the little skin in between your fingers but just like stretched out super far that always fucks me up hey now that's a hand right there man sick at hoops what is uh what's something you think is underrated i don't know if you guys are on like um book talk or whatever like people like go on tiktok and recommend different books

i feel like there are so many classic novels that even though their classics are underrated like i recently read rebecca for the very first time it's like the 1930s it's about a woman who like remarries a guy whose ex-wife is dead and she has to like live in her shadow it's a crazy good book i've never heard anyone in my life ever talk about it and i'm currently on a roll of like reading classics that aren't like the ones you have to read for school they're kind of just like out in the ether um and they're genuinely mind like life-changing and fantastic but because they're old they aren't like recommended unless you get very specific like aesthetic old-timey vintage book talk circles like then they are

but i feel like they don't get enough love, even though they are technically classics. I'm currently reading Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin. Never heard anybody else who has read it or talked about it before. It's so far an amazing book. I want them to talk about

this book, because it feels awful to read amazing pieces of work, and there's two video essays on the entirety of YouTube about it it's like no one's ever investigated right i'm uh i i've never read the book rebecca i didn't even know there was a book rebecca but i am familiar with the text because i'm an army hammer completist and uh he starred in the 2020 film oh okay there's a there's a hitchcock film based on it, I believe. Yeah, there's a Hitchcock film and then there's a TV movie, which I prefer.

I think there's a BBC TV movie. It has the dad Lannister from Game of Thrones plays Max De Winter, the main, the husband in the story. We just call him Ty, Ty Wynn Lannister. I guess people know him as Charles Dancy or Dance or whatever his name is. Charlie Dance is what I

call him. That man can dance. I'm not huge on book talk. It's one of the few TikTok subcultures that I'm not fully plugged into. I think I know that Moby Dick is plugged into i i think i know that like moby dick is really big on book talk is that right i think so it's really i know that the one of the biggest things is a crown of roses and thorns akatar is like the big book top book it's like a really new

i think fairy fey uh romance story there's a lot of romance books are popular on book talk right there generally is good recommendations on there we have to figure out where figure out where your niche is content wise people will have lists of books that are exactly what you're looking for yeah it's interesting too because like i know people in the film industry who like use book talk to try and like find new ip that they think is like, they're like, Oh shit, nobody's fucking got the rights to this book or whatever. And it's interesting to see because people are like bibliophiles and be like,

we can't just talk about the same 80 books all the time. How like how book talk has like actually like to your point, like people are now like, Oh right. There's, there's just so much work out there to actually comb through. But yeah, having that ability

to recommend stuff is i'm sure very helpful and i thought like is that that like book chain thing that i've seen go around does that did that start on book talk where it's like you recommend a book and then like you send a person a book that you like or some shit do you know i'm talking about i maybe i honestly i my i've been trying to cut back on social media usage this year. So I'm like, I honestly don't know. But how do you do your job? It's literally just my job. I try to log off and do literally anything else. Right, right. I go on Nazi Telegram channels and then read a book. Not doing book talk.

Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. And so do you go on book talk and then you don't have to read the books, right? You can just like get them to tell you about the books. It's like a... Honestly, if the book is not that good, I do kind of like... I'm just on here. I kind of get the vague plot references

from book talk and then log off and I don't bother reading the book at all. There you go. Cool. So amazing. Amazing, overrated, underrated in search history. A plus Sabine. We are going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and talk about what things are looking like on the right these days. We'll be right back.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high-control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new, chilling first-hand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives.

Forgive Me For I Have Followed will be more than an exploration. It's a vital revelation aimed at ensuring these types of abuses never happen again. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradente.

And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions, like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job?

Girl, yes. Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Saner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it? Like you miss a hundred percent of the shots you never take. Yeah. Rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the

iHeartRadio app, Apple podcastss, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've been thinking about you. I want you back in my life. It's too late for that. I have a proposal for you. Come up here and document my project. All you need to do is record everything like you always do. One session, 24 hours. BPM 110, 120. She's terrified. Should we wake her up? Absolutely not. What was that? You didn't figure it out?

I think I need to hear you say it. That was live audio of a woman's nightmare. This machine is approved and everything? You're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're allowed to be doing this? We passed the review board a year ago. We're not hurting people. There's nothing dangerous about what you're doing.

They're just dreams. Dream Sequence is a new horror thriller from Blumhouse Television, iHeartRadio, and Realm. Listen to Dream Sequence on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. We're back. By the way, I missed an opportunity to say one of my favorite phrases in the English language

when you were talking about your favorite non-mammal animal, Sabine, the worms that they go to town whenever there is a whale fall, right? Aren't they the ones that eat the whales? Those are hagfish. Hagfish. Wow. I went out on a limb. I got

warmed up. I was stretching out during the break. I was like, get ready for this whale fall drop. I'm going to sound smart as shit. Yo, with the hagfish fumblejack? Wow. You did that shit on mic? Oh, boy. No, don't edit it out, Justin.

Is whale fall? Wait, that's when a whale dies? That's when a whale dies and then it creates an entire ecosystem of food for... It's so rad. It's this massive event and animals come from all over. They're like, what, a whale?

Eat. Yeah. Watching hagfish devour and skeletonize a whale on the bottom of the ocean is one of those things you don't soon forget. Top 10 reminders that we're all

mortal. We're all just bone bags waiting to get we're all just bone bags waiting to be skeletonized by time well on that note uh let's talk about election denialism still here folks still here it's definitely hanging around more than I would have thought, like, as January 6th was happening. And then, like, you know, the day went on and people like everyone in the Republican Party was like, all right, man, like, come on. Obviously, you lost like this is this is embarrassing. And yet, yeah, here. Yeah. I mean, I think there it's clearly like the beating heart that is keeping the maga revenge tour alive right now is like that ill that like the the election being stolen

and at first this sort of felt like something that was just like more rhetorical we're like yeah let's just say like we could say that to kind of pump ourselves up to like motivate ourselves and just like something to cry about keep people's heads in the game but this sentiment is just still alive and strong and i'm curious to being in like your research and i've always wondered this like are there i'm there are there like distinct buckets of people within the larger election denialism like culture subculture like there's like going to be the people that are grifting they actually don't fucking believe that anything was stolen but they know they could take advantage of people who do then like true believers and then like casuals for like lack of a better term like how would you categorize like what this sort of

like election overall election denialism movement kind of looks like absolutely there are buckets um i know one of the two biggest buckets are people who think that election nihilism is real, that election was stolen, and that therefore it's pointless to vote. And people who are like, election was stolen, but you should still definitely show up for the polls, please, in November. constantly election deniers have a lot of infighting particularly about which politicians they deem as legitimate like will enact MAGA like policies or who also reinforce election was stolen and people who are like as long as they have like pro-life stuff it's fine people tend to like kind of where they're giving and what they think is okay to, like, compromise varies wildly, even though they all basically believe that the election was stolen. Right. Because, like, I'm always curious how much in their bones, like, they believe these lies. Because, like, every court case has got the smack put on it.

And it's just like, well, there's no, you really have no evidence aside from the feeling that you just are aggrieved. And like, you know, but then there are people that are in like literal tears. They're like, this country is like just going to dog shit. And others that are using their argument just to like, I think just to sort of justify their hatred of a Democratic administration. So like, I'm like, it's always interesting to see how that motivates people. And like, to your point, we saw that sort of denialism backfired a bit in Georgia when Warnock was elected at the end of 2020. And a lot of people were like, I don't know if we could, if we simultaneously, like the election was stolen, but also go vote in Georgia

to make sure Warnock doesn't get elected to the Senate. Like, so to your point of the people being like, oh, it's, it's real. And also, but they're like, but don't create like a sense of apathy and don't like totally black bill these people. How, how are like, how are these people? Like how are Republicans are people in the right wing able to like walk that line to try not to completely demotivate the base?

Like, like how can you not, if everything is fucking rigged? Yeah. I know the, one of the main things I've seen is particularly extremist groups like Proud Boys, like parents rights groups that are on the extremist end, free for centers. Those people tend to either put up their own or like actively endorse candidates that are very, very far right. very far right, and kind of use that as kind of like a carrot, where it's like, if you do go vote, this person isn't just like kind of Republican, or like, even solidly red, they're like, very extreme to the point where you're extreme. And I think I've seen, I've been seeing people

essentially, especially for local elections and for state elections, like, I mean, you're already there. So vote for like the president, you're already there. So vote for the Senate person. But like, you're really there to vote for these people for these school board seats for these board supervisor seats that are incredibly far right i feel like local elections definitely ended up being a major driver of people within these spaces where it's like you get more people who are kind of off the deep end and who are very much like i want to i think there is a movement to like ban rank choice voting as an option for voting in the future for within states, or like, going back and increasing voter ID requirements, make it so just state ID isn't valid anymore. Like there are just a lot of people who want to who run locally on these kind of platforms, and they get a good amount of support and traction. So it ends up being like, you should support this person, and then you're already at the polls you know right do you feel like first of all do you ever get in there and say good point it is pointless to vote y'all should definitely not vote good good call guys yeah and

then but also like you know we've seen trump himself over index when compared to his polling but then more recently we've seen the Republican Party perform much worse than polling was indicating leading in, or at least on the worse side of the continuum, on the more disappointing for them side of the continuum. The explanation for that that I've usually heard is just that people are actually pissed about their bodily autonomy going away and that is a much better motivating thing than whatever kind of grievance shit that they have going on but do you think that the people thinking that it's pointless to vote actually has an impact on that has impacted their electoral kind of underwhelming performances?

Well, I mean, this past election to the 2022 midterm election, people were trying to really get out the vote. Obviously, Arizona was a big focus. And then Wisconsin was also really big focus. And I was in Arizona spaces and Pennsylvania spaces after the election happened. And the people who they're putting up largely did not win. people were like, hey, what happened if you didn't go vote? Why did you go vote? And a lot of people said, oh, I kind of wanted to vote, but my kid has a soccer game. I was traveling.

I was busy. And they're like, because it wasn't convenient, they didn't care enough about it because they were like, the odds of it being rigged are so high, I'm sure it was rigged in so high slash like i'm sure it was rigged in the past and so if it isn't then easy plus with their whole i guess devaluing of mail and voting or early but people think that also is like unsafe and invaluable so you have to be there

in person on election day a lot of people can't be there in person on election day or just it'll be hard for them to like stand in line for three hours after work and so it's like they because they think of it as being kind of like a lost cause in the back of their minds anyway doing a bunch of extra effort to go vote feels like a waste of time i think implicit like it's subconsciously so they're like oh yeah i don't like my kid had to go to the doctor and so i was tired after and then didn't go vote and that feels like a valid like they're they're resolute you know in in taking the white house but how how does that square with this this simmering like sort of election denialism like what's the fucking point energy that exists in the right like how is that like what what do

you hear from people like are they still saying like it's important to vote or they're just more like man we're gonna have to fucking take over the Capitol again or some shit. Like, how are they motivating themselves? Because obviously the results are going to be borne out in the voting. But if they aren't doing that, then how do they achieve that goal? Yeah. I mean, it's different this year, mostly because Trump is now probably going to be on the ballot. And a lot of these people, if they don't like a billion

republicans a billion things they do love trump and so it's like him being there changes again immediately and then on top of that i am seeing good enough people which very well could be all talk also being like voting is work we have to take it a step more than voting either like like convoying or doing mass protests or doing another i know that during the midterm people doing watching drop boxes with like with guns right it was also kind of starting to get a little bit of seem i think we're gonna probably i can very easily see more public protests and like active obstruction of election process in local officials because they're like trump is on the ballot so now you need to vote because you can vote trump back in office. People think that basically everyone in

these circles desperately wants to have happen. But then to kind of mitigate fraud or to mitigate theft of votes, be, watch surveillance cameras, put your drones in there and stare into the voting booth for like all hours of the day to make sure that nobody's cheating and no one's like, and it ends up being like almost like a hyper surveillance game where it's like the more eyes we can have on every crumb of the voting process, the more secure it'll be. So like harass people at their jobs

when they're counting ballots. And like that tends to be almost like, even if you aren't super red-pilled about it ends up kind of being what you what you're going to do or what you're, I guess, encouraged to do within these spaces. Yeah, because I'm like, it's wild to think like for people who that's where like, to me, it's like, it's just like a little it's just kind of reeks of bullshit, too. too because like when you when i saw people like in iowa during the caucuses a lot of people were sharing like those clips of people just like putting strips of paper in a fucking shopping bag to how they were voting and they're like i'm sorry i thought y'all were all about this election security but they're like well when it's us we know it's when those other people get involved that you can't trust the process at all but But yeah, that's really sort of kind of

interesting to think about because yeah, obviously like with Trump on the ballot, that's a huge draw, but then it's also like, yeah, how will it, how will it even out? Like how many people are going to still maintain like, yep, this is the way to do it. And then other people who are like, I guess, but we've got to also watch every, like you say, every kernel, every little minute step in the process to hopefully i don't know catch something even though they they tried last time it did not really work out that way yeah yeah should we talk about last time should we talk about january 6th because it does feel a little bit like have you ever been in a town this happened like the last time i lived

in new york there was a massive blizzard. And then the next time there was like any snow in the forecast, there was the great, like it was called like snowpocalypse. And, you know, like all these, it's also like what happened after 9-11 when the mainstream media made it feel like another equivalent terror attack was absolutely imminent. You know, our imagination is basically formed by the things that we've recently seen, I guess, especially in like the mainstream media. So I'm just, it feels like people are like that, that is the version of, you you know right-wing action that people are able to imagine but it seems like some of your research has said like that's probably not exactly what it's going to look like now so i'm just curious to hear your thoughts on what we're kind

of missing there yeah i mean january 6th definitely was a keystone moment. I think that one thing that it did show, like one thing that it did show though, I think was that just because the previous four-year Trump meant a lot of extremist felt empowered and like they're able to kind of do get away with a lot of stuff, it means you can get away with literally everything. And a lot of people who were put on no-fly lists

that were then like tried and convicted of crimes especially because in these spaces people either frame january 6 as like a terrible moment when our our patriots were like tricked and deceived and now are put in as political prisoners or it's completely a false flag by antifa or the fbi and like i I think doing it on January 6th, I don't really see it in the forecast because it's like, now people know that if you go too hard into this thing and get kind of too caught up,

there are real tangible consequences. And like, you can be arrested for doing crimes, and that's not something that you don't get kind of like free reign to do just because you look at Canada a lot. And I don't think that was a thing that had been proven on a wide scale in these spaces until January 6th.

Now, even people who do the dropbox modeling with guns, they're also only two people, not a horde. It's people who are fully covered identities and make it, schedule it and talk to the police make sure that like the

police are okay with them being there it's it's a lot more of uh i it's weird to say above board effort and that's like a mass you know going to do something because it just feels right in the moment because i think people now know that that isn't necessarily going to work out well if you're caught up in the moment right do you think like you know just thought experiment do you think that the energy is still sort of swirling around like that it could like like if all the right pieces are in place like could it repeat like if like let's say biden wins narrowly and it's like only down to like two states that were like you know purple but more on the red side or something and somehow he's you know wins whatever state you know, purple, but more on the red side or something. And somehow, he's, you know, wins whatever state, you know, just for this hypothetical, and it like hinges on these two things. And Trump begins agitating again, and saying, like doing sort of like running the sort of same script again. think it would it would there would be another attempt except like more organized or again like to your point too many people are just put off because they're like they're like yo this is a

fucking op like don't even try it but also but it feels like they're also very motivated to show up in physical space in some capacity to sort of like let their displeasure be known no i would much more predict which is like why i'm dreading it much more predict there being two three four five people who show up and purge try to do something all of the gretchen whitmer more predict which is like I'm dreading it much more predict there being two three four five people who show up and purge try to do something a lot the Gretchen Whitmer attempted kidnapping like it's like three or four guys as opposed to being the number people who were at January 6 at this point yeah it being an op it being a set up to be politically imprisoned it's now a big

enough narrative that I would personally think that it's going to be i would see more smaller either one person or three or four or five people attempts at like trying to go and take votes from election offices or like or finding out people who weren't elected people regularly put the names and faces and phone numbers of people who are election officials um and say bother them call their number maybe dox them i'm thinking more i mean even swatting people feels like it's probably more more likely of an event to happen than another j6 right so it's more that yeah at that point it's like oh shit like you can't be that visible with a whole group like that so either we go lone wolf or like these tiny groups or just stick to digital harassment because that seems like i mean

it's happening to like nikki haley and judges involved in trump's trials and things and election officials so yeah maybe where we go one we go like a few of us this is kind of more a more accurate where we go one we go in manageable groups that doesn't cause an object we that aren't we get we clear it ahead of time and we're like hey guys just an opsec opsec is a thing now opsec is a thing totally we gotta be we gotta that's the buzzword now it's all about operational security yeah all right let's take a quick break we'll come back we'll talk about you know what what are some of the potential futures if biden doesn't win narrowly if b Biden doesn't win by a landslide, if Biden doesn't win at all. We'll be right back.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members and others whose lives and careers have been impacted just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new chilling firsthand accounts, the series will illuminate untold and extremely necessary perspectives.

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And we're back and there's a whole atlantic magazine that was like if trump wins but like i i didn't see like any of those stories like really breaking through or capturing people's imagination it just feels like people are kind of exhausted by him at this point, which is something that we talked about in the very early days of this podcast, of the Trump administration, the idea that the Nazis first came to power, they were front page, or just like when they first existed, rather. They were front page news. It was a national scandal an international scandal by the time that they came to power they were people were just like exhausted by it and tired of like reading about them and like just people you know it's the bannon strategy of flooding the zone with shit and you just become kind of inert to it so So I'm just curious to hear your thoughts generally on what you think a world looks like with these groups preparing the way they are and changing how open they are.

If Trump wins, I feel like they become a lot less scared of prosecution and things go in in a different direction right yeah i mean in my mind a trump win would probably also accompany a bunch of smaller same election uh wins for republicans and i think that that would end up i could see being almost like you know how twitter was and how twitter slash x is now where it's like you go online and like i saw the heading online in my feed yesterday and it was just like that's just around now and that was just part of your everyday normal i can see it being like you walk around your your city and you see like a white price sticker and a stop sign and that's just like part of the landscape of where you live and it being essentially laws are passed that are that are you know regressive

and bigoted and i could see it being like you know i i think i'm thinking more in the sense that it would feel just generally unsafe but then also would have the caveat of being like and you would feel like get tired tired and like it's normal and like it sucks you don't like it but like it's a bunch of title instances that go about your day. Not one big guy yelling at you or fighting with you. What are you going to do about it? And I could see that being, like, you know, every school board meeting is now some weird right-wing screed

about how trans kids are ruining everything. And that's every school board meeting now. And there's not a lot of ways to, like, counteract that or, like, to make that stop. Right. like you know because just we're in an election year and it feels like every time shit just gets worse and worse like the technology gets better for bad faith actors the potential for violence increases and i think a lot of people will probably hear like okay so there's not to be no J6 2.0 and probably be like, okay, great. Nothing to worry about. Like they realize they've been

fully dissuaded from trying that shit again. Um, no need to be vigilant about anything, but you know, like I said, we've had Jared on the show too. And we were talking about like white nationalism 2.0 and the rise of like active clubs and things like that. Aside from like sort of those groups and how they've sort of just like shifted or what, however, they're going to participate in this upcoming year or next few years. What can what do you think people can expect to see from these right wing groups in terms of what sort of activities they feel like they're invested in in terms of like the build up to the election? they're invested in in terms of like the buildup to the election yeah i mean i prepare for a lot of ads a lot of very gross disgusting ads in your youtube and your spotify's and your everything i would also say that at least from my perspective viral content and like and like just changes of language i mean like people use red pill in-y style language as on the regular,

even if you aren't in the community now. It's just now part of the language of being online. And I think that expecting, feeling a weird like right-wing ideology shift. I mean, like this whole, I mean, I'm seeing a lot of trad wife content, a lot of white supremacists, like word usage or meme templates.

I mean, that's only going to get more and more frequent. Feeling like everyone in your feed constantly has some weird, disgusting worldview where everyone's out for themselves. And the outsiders and the freaks are trying to ruin your life. And that's what's going to feel like it's a constant messaging wherever you go. And people are very much invested in making it feel like you should be scared all the time. The fact that you're upset and that things are going well for you is somebody else's fault that you should specifically blame. And solutions that aren't that or more nuanced in-depth conversations are probably going to feel less like a part of your daily conversations. depth conversations are probably going to feel less like a part of your daily conversations so like right that's a lot of it is now just sort of shifting to what can we create energetically

as an environment for people to operate in and then hopefully that will nudge people in the right direction or just dissuade them from doing anything at all that's um yeah um yeah so grim especially now when you look at just like the the of like AI shit and all this deep fake stuff that's happening that about AI and, you know, we're somewhere between the shit is scary to also like the way companies are using it is kind of like ham-fisted and not that impressive at this point. But just generally, like I know my job has gotten harder when it comes to being able to like find reputable information on the internet. I can only imagine what it's like in the trenches as you are trying to track trends and things like that. How much of that is the new technologies that are advancing?

How much of that is that the companies have completely given up on reining it in at all? And just, yeah, I'm curious to hear your overall thoughts on the state of the union when it comes to disinformation online yeah i mean when i was when i was doing work in 2020 it i'm i marveled to my co-workers about like like wow people on the right spend so much time doing illustrations and making like interesting meme and art to like just flood these systems. And I would like reverse image search constantly

because there's always new things being made. With AI, I feel like that's only getting more frequent and worse. Especially with disinformation. I mean, when I'm doing reports on the daily for my job, I have to generally go back and back to have to see how people are saying this, what's actually happening, and find that information now, especially if it's a smaller local story that doesn't have a bunch of news outlets on it.

It's so difficult to see, is what they're saying true or not? I don't want to just write them off completely as being like, everything they say is a lie, and I want to actually do my research. But if there's not a local news article about it or someone or like a reputable source like trying to figure out something is true that they're saying i'm like they're saying it i don't necessarily believe them but there's nowhere else to look to find different information i think that's one of the bigger issues i mean we i mean obviously twitter has the community notes thing which is you know biased at best but like having reliable fact

check especially for things that are more local or that are smaller scale is like you're only getting the right wing narrative of any event and to find the truth or like the non-biased thing is just so difficult and i don't i don't know how that's changing how people perceive current events or local events or just like regular takes on everyday life if they're only seeing one side and like even if they don't like that person like that opinion there's no other opinion or other side to look at to balance it out and define the truth in the middle yeah why why do you think these big social media companies gave up so completely like it seems like this would be a time when you would be able to

make a name for yourself by being the one place that actually tries to fact check. On the other hand, it was already an extremely difficult task to fact check all the misinformation, and now it's getting more difficult. Is it just kind of that combination because we've also talked about how most corporate entities have like gone away from doing good for from that idea being like you know it was never their main driving impulse but it was like fashionable for a little bit to like have these esg programs and stuff and now it's like a bad word to say that you're investing in those things. Like, where do you think that kind of giving up came from? I think there are like a few things.

One of the first things I'm thinking is that like, I remember when they started to do kind of disinformation countering and start to do those efforts, they got a lot of pushback from actual Republicans in Congress because they'd be like, my statement is getting fact-checked and flat if it isn't true. And it's like, when you start to objectively go about what is true information or not,

A, a real person has to basically go through every single thing. If someone doesn't get a joke or doesn't understand that it's satire, that person gets caught in the middle of it. But then also people who are making inflammatory rhetoric then who are elected officials also get caught in that and then it starts looking

to Republicans mostly that this platform is being biased because it's censoring Republicans. Now, the really big narrative for a long time was that social media companies are censoring the right because you put something up that's like covid the covid 19 uh vaccine causes autism and then you get flagged

and it's like well then of course you're going to get flagged but then if that happens in a weird bias scatagram then like you think that that's a negative or like it's a targeted harassment campaign from the social media company also the fact that rage clicks make money. People engage with things when it makes you mad. And so there's not really a financial benefit of having that not be there. And also, like, yeah, real people have to go through and moderate spaces. I spend a lot of time submitting posts for moderation or flagging posts or reporting posts because it's like this person missed this. And it's like, well, I and it's like a lot i mean

especially twitter slash x they cut down their moderation team basically zero and facebook already doesn't really have a super big one that's always on the clock so it's like you're asking a team of 15 people to monitor the entirety of facebook that's a really big ask they're going to miss stuff and so it's like they have the company has to invest in hiring more people and setting stronger more specific guidelines and then also adhering to those guidelines even if the person that they're adhering to brings a lot of traffic and money to the platform it's like there's not a ton of upfront incentive that's the stuff that's always been true it's just again like the public they just got tired of like resisting the main impulse of capitalism to be like yeah no you can do that

it's not profitable and you'll get fired for doing it but yeah no go ahead it's great that looks great on you after a while the forces just kind of wear you down. Yeah, exactly. Well, then also just how much we've seen, how much conservatives have just worn even the media down to be like, how dare you? Yeah. Fact check the words I say. You're trying to silence me. And like, there's no like, fuck, man, I don't we don't have the will to push back or we're not getting the directive from the people high up to push back. So it's just kind of like, OK, i guess we'll just please appease them and and then you event you end up in this sort of place where it's like too much of a hassle to follow through on those kinds of things and

it's kind of like it's a little unsettling sabine right because with everything you're saying it's like you know they're they're not the fucking platforms aren't going to do anything they're fucking just doing their own thing putting out their own news that is going to be the first point of contact for a lot of people if they're looking at like one of these stories or manufactured sort of scandals or whatever it what is the role that normal people can play in sort of countering this like not to say that like now you need to get on your moderation shit and start like hopping in these spaces but like what what is like like what are the sort of steps because i feel like all the time you hear about like a project 2025 or like

these other things are like what what the fuck like what i mean not that this is specifically to that but you're like what do what is the left doing anything about Project 2025? Not that I can see. But for regular people who are the what kind of networks of people or can be created or things can be done to sort of counter that yeah i mean it's so online particularly because most of my expertise there are already some forms of practice that i think i would endorse um i know people are like hey when you're ducking on someone's screenshot and then do the dumps they don't get the engagement if your tweet goes viral there's also just i guess not encouraging behavior maybe like we're not dunking at all if you can help it if you see a tweet or you see a headline take the extra time to see if it's actually true before you before you share it or before you then again make outrage bait a lot of a lot of particularly right

accounts make their money and get their influence from being inflammatory and like and triggering that like the instinct in you to get messing that you know isn't right or that you know isn't true and like taking the time to like step back think about is it worth it to engage is it worth it if it really is a narrative you want to counter, screenshot it and talk about it on your own thing so they don't get the engagement or make sure you can like double check, fact check whatever you're sharing,

like you're not just doing an immediate emotional share. Offline, I would say that, at least for me, there are times that people in my community have heard stuff or said stuff or like kids will come home and say anything that they've heard at school and like it all feels in the moment like a one-off instance of someone being shitty and like it honestly it it can be more than that and it can foster environment where it feels like that's okay and so like not letting those

things slide or let lie or kind of just brushing them off. I know like in my hometown, my parents were walking by a school. Someone had changed it to say a bunch of slurs and like pro-Nazi stuff when everyone was on vacation. We took a picture of it, put it in the county Facebook group and said, hey, this isn't cool. We need to talk about this. We had a conversation about talking to your kids. If you have teenagers or anything in the area, make sure you're talking about what is or is not appropriate to do and what is it's not true about minority groups that's something that you can do to kind of like not just let it be a shitty thing that you saw and then now have to i guess ignore brush right right i know also my my company's isd has a

program called strong cities network where they do de-radicalization programming, trainings and classes for city officials, for local officials, for community members about what you can do to foster an environment where extremism doesn't feel welcome or safe in your area. There are, I think, already existing anti-hate groups that are either national or that could be in your state. I know that Virginia, where I live, certainly has some. And seeking out those groups and participating

is also great to feel like you're doing something, you're getting involved. Right. Yeah, I think it's also, I mean, it's kind of a really interesting point, too, where it's like so much of the engagement that these inflammatory accounts get is purely because of the reaction from people on the other end of the spectrum. And it's like sort of like it's that easy for them. It's like, dude, all you got to do is just say this and then it blows up. Really funny people dunk on you and then their content becomes your content. Yeah, right. Exactly. And then it's like sort of like, yeah, I mean, one of the biggest ways to sort of like pull the rug out from under them is to also like to your point is like if you're going to talk about it, maybe don't share the handle or just take the screenshot.

So that actual individual post isn't getting the sort of engagement that they need to feed the algorithm. It's like just remember a lot of this shit while it is upsetting. It's the intent is for you to interact with it. So the message goes further and wider and that's like just such a super subtle thing that yeah to think about how it's like yeah it's it's kind of like a rube goldberg machine but it's just kind of like yeah man i'll get this one thing and it can do next thing you know it's setting off all kinds of alarm bells yeah well sabine lawrence such a pleasure having you on the show yeah where can

people find you follow you all that good stuff i'm on twitter slash x my at is on gallant for hire with the number four as a for hire i can put it in the chat so you can put on the screen or anything and that's the only place besides like i uh i have papers sometimes, I dispatch it sometimes that are posted to Twitter, to LinkedIn, and also just on the ISC website. Amazing. And is there a work of media that you've been enjoying? Yes, I currently have been enjoying a lot of Jack Stauber. He's like, he was on adult swim a lot and he does these really cool claymation and like techno pop works and it's my favorite artist nice and we will link off to sabine's twitter handle in the footnotes uh miles where can people find you is there a work of media you've been enjoying yes uh my name does not have a Tolkien reference in the handle,

but you can find me at the at-based platforms, Miles of Grey, and also find Jack and I on our basketball podcast, Miles and Jack Out Mad Boosties. And if you like a bit of 90 Day Fiance, I also talk about that in my off time. That's on 420 Day Fiance. Check that podcast out. A tweet. It's actually aok because your boy's been scrolling and there's this one account at casey winnie this woman she's been doing just like these very subtle things like you know imagine the first person like the first pirate to say r and i think she first started going viral because she was doing her own version of jennifer coolidge going like like she's like really good at that sound, but she's been like doing these,

just these videos, very simple. That's like hypothetical. And this one is called imagine the person who first replied after a while crocodile. Um, even though it is in a while crocodile, a lot of people were in the chat or in the comments being like,

it's in a while crocodile. Oh, let me just said after a while crocodile. Oh, I've always had in a while crocodile. Sabine, where are you? Are you in a while or after a while? In while okay okay well look the country uh we've there's

so many more divisions that we even know about you know so it's good to get these things all out there uh but this is the clip of it because i just love it's just like this reaction of the person who's just eating uh but please listen to the background chatter because that's what honestly makes the video so hilarious see you later alligator after a while crocodile wait a minute oh wow that's delicious how did you come up with that crocodile and an alligator she's like just obsessed what's the square root of 64 8 y'all that's what the square root of 64 is

I love that one cause it's 8 so anyway her tiktoks are pretty hilarious so yeah shout out to that one that's amazing after a while wow you're just fucked me up guys that's like me thinking about my

trilobite love right now going to that part of my brain uh you can find me on twitter at jack underscore o'brien i liked a tweet there from goose that is in the genre of lose yourself lyrics. Always like a fake lose yourself lyric. His balls are sweaty. Knees weak. Balls are sweaty. They're sweaty on a sweater already. Balls are sweaty. Just made me laugh. Art.

Art. You can find us on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at The Daily Zeitgeist on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page and a website daily zeitgeist we're at the daily zeitgeist on instagram we have a facebook fan page and our website dailyzeitgeist.com where we post our episodes and our footnotes we'll link off to the information that we talked about in today's episode as well as a song that we think you might enjoy miles is there a song do you think people might enjoy yeah yeah yeah uh there is out so a few days ago last week i was talking about an indonesian funk band called aka but when i was searching for them

i found another group called aka but if i think it's like an african funk band like a psychedelic african band from the 70s i couldn't anything else, but this is what showed up. This track is called Shake Me by A.K.A. And it's just got like, it's just that Afro psychedelic vibe shit from the 70s. And it's like really good funky horns, stuff like that. And, you know, love a live band. So check this one out.

This is Shake Me by A.K.A. We'll link off to that in the footnotes. The Daily Zeitgeist is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from the daily zeitgeist of production of iHeartRadio for more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app apple podcast wherever you listen your favorite shows that is going to do it for us this morning we are back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and we will talk to you all then bye bye i'm jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed.

Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil.

I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadson. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.