The Daily Zeitgeist - Five Day Work WEAK 10.10.23

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

In episode 1561, Jack and Miles are joined by professional futurist; and author of Shorter and Rest, Dr. Alex Soojung-Kim Pang, to discuss… The 4 Day Work Week, Rise & Grind Culture, An Analysis of Jack and Mile's Daily Schedules and more! Visit the 4 Day Week Global site here! LISTEN: Outro by Coco & Clair ClairSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me for I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Keri Champion, and this is season four of Naked Sports. Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese.

Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have

changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pardenti

and I'm Jermaine Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation,

then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, the internet, and welcome to season 308, episode two of Dirt Daily's iGeist Day, production of iHeartRadio. This is a podcast where we take a deep dive into America's shared consciousness. And it is Tuesday, October 10th, 2023. Oh, yeah. You know, it is. It's a lot of cake.

It's National Angel Food Cake Day, which has always felt a bit light of the cake varieties. National Cake Decorating Day. National Pan Bag Day. You know, for everybody grinding out there trying to get on that Birkin life like me. World Mental Health Day. National Walk to a Park Day.

He's going to be a character across the whole episode. National Metric Day. It's all about a grind, Jack. You know what I mean? Grind set mindset. The grind set mindset is what powered my grandfather to look 30 years older than he did when he was 43. You know what I mean? And that's what I'm trying to do.

Like, I'm trying to do like i'm trying to grind so hard people think i'm a time traveler and yeah anyway well you know we're gonna get into that obviously are you a old like a mountaineer from turn of the century west virginia because you look old as hell bro anyways my name... Look at some old pictures of mountaineers back in the day because they would just go up there without oxygen and come down looking so old. It's truly the oldest looking humans I've ever seen. They age like presidents when they're on those mountains.

Jack, that's a misnomer. They're not the oldest looking humans you've ever seen. They look like the hardest working people. They look like the hardest grinders that I've ever seen. Yeah, exactly. Grinding their bodies down to dust. That's right. Well, my name's Jack O'Brien, a.k.a.

In the jungle, the mighty jungle, O'Brien sleeps tonight. That is courtesy of Reedsy's on the Discord board can't be me can't be talking about me must be talking about one of my kids because i don't sleep i always keep one eye open uh and i'm thrilled to be joined as always by my co-host mr miles gray hey it's miles gray aka why why don't we do birthday bye cake is boring something something something the aka wasn't finished but i understand the sentiment from scouty on discord why don't we do why can't we make birthday pie just a normal thing you know what i mean just do it for those that do shout out to the trailblazers out there miles we're the ones in charge of these decisions we

should just do it as people in charge of the zeitgeist we should just make the make the dang change dude i don't i don't fucking work 300 hours a week to not make the rules you know what i mean i don't even know there are that many hours in the week but that's what it feels like baby all right well thank you for calling me baby i do love when you do. And I have requested that you do that more often. Miles, in our seat, we are thrilled to be joined by a professional futurist with a PhD in the history of science. He's been a visiting scholar at Stanford and Oxford Universities and is the author of four books, including Shorter and Rest. Please welcome to the show, Dr. Alex Sujung King.

Pang. Alex. Uh, thanks for having me and happy national angel food cake. Yeah. Right. Are you a fan of angel food cake? I love angel food cake.

Oh, and cake decorating actually. So, you know, two for one. Oh, wow. Okay.

Is that like, is that a, like a hobby of yours decorating cakes or, you know, you admire the artwork. I admire the artwork though. a, like a hobby of yours decorating cakes or, you know, you admire the artwork? I admire the artwork though. My wife and my daughter are both pretty sort of, uh, pretty amazing bakers. So, okay. Okay. Okay. Well, we're so glad you joined us here today. Obviously the listeners probably have heard me really talking about my grind set mindset. How I get to Lambeau is the thesis statement of this show.

mindset. How I get to Lambeau is the thesis statement of this show. Yeah. But as quickly as possible, you know, Tim Ferriss gave me some ideas. They aren't working very well. I don't know why. I wasn't able to outsource enough of my work to enough people who work for $5 an hour. It didn't work that way, but we are curious to pick your mind because yeah, it was the talk of shortened work weeks. And if that's better, I don don't know the jury's still out in my mind we figured it's good to enlist the help of someone who hasn't like their area of expertise isn't precisely that to fight the voices that tell me to keep grinding every day and every night we're mainly going off vibes on this end yeah and you've actually looked at data, whatever that means. So we're going to dig into it. But before we get into that, we do like to get to know you a little

bit better and ask you, what is something from your search history that is revealing about who you are or what you're up to? Well, this morning I was on Google Translate for a while looking at four-day week in other languages. So it's something that I've been interested in for several years, and it's a movement that keeps growing, and I have to keep tracking it now in Turkish and Hungarian and stuff. It used to be relatively simple. It was English and maybe one or two other languages,

but now it's just all over the place. How is that spreading? Is it just like kind of word of mouth that different companies are learning about it? Or is it coming usually from the workers themselves? Or how do you see that kind of happening? Yeah, you know, a lot of it is spreading through sort of word of mouth with like within industries. So, industries. So you get a couple people in HR and recruiting who try it in their organizations, and then their competitors will do it, because those competitors are starting to lose people to the company that did it first. And then it gets written up in the news, some, you know, and there's some ambitious politician who thinks, you know, this is how they become, you know, governor

or Senator or something, right. Championing the four day week. And so, you know, and it kind of builds from there. And it's fortunately been something that's gotten, you know, plenty of press and plenty of attention. And so it's, you know, it's been really great to see it acquire that kind of momentum and take on a life of its own. Yeah. Or just like innately, some cultures are going to be a little bit harder for them to like cross the barrier into the four-hour work week just based on sort of like ideas of what productivity or what, you know, someone's worth is based on work? Or is there also a thing where too like humanity is just kind of naturally maybe progressing towards this or it's like, I mean, culture or not, it's like this feels better, this works better. Yeah, you know, I think if you've got 24 hours in a day, you're going to, you're going to value this. So, I mean,

you know, I have seen this in like two of the hotspots for the four day week are Japan and Korea, which are both countries whose languages have their own words for working yourself to death. Right. So, you know, it's not just like Sweden and Denmark and places with really good work-life balance. You actually see it most in places that have really serious issues with like stress, overwork, et cetera. Oh, okay. I haven't hit that yet. I haven't hit that yet. Yeah, we're not on board yet. You said 24 hours in a day?

My man, you got to find some more hours. That's right. I got 30 in a day over here but anyway go on that's another story it it does um cut against the standard narrative that we see in the mainstream media i feel like that that's one of the things that made it jump out to me is like this wouldn't be getting coverage unless it actually worked because so much of the mainstream like narrative is focused on emphasizing the impact of these like billionaires and how they worked so hard and did it all by themselves and bootstrapped their way up and so to have this thing that keeps getting media attention that feels like really counter to the logic that the entire that is like the software that the entire media that we consume runs on like that that's one of the things that

made me be like huh i feel like there's must be something here because if it wasn't true like the the media wouldn't allow it you know yeah like weapons of mass destruction we were saying that too why would they talk about that the yellow cake that's right it's got to be true what uh what is something you think is overrated so what do i think is overrated you know i think overwork is actually overrated that you know there is there is a century's worth of research that tells us that that is counterproductive, both for people and for actually for organizations. And that, you know, humans are able to sustain brief periods of, you know, bursts of work for short periods of time, right?

You know, sort of running away from the tiger or harvesting crops in the fall. But the idea that you do this as a way of life turns out to sort of lead to bad outcomes in all kinds of industries. And, you know, we, and industrial like engineers and or of sociologists started seeing this as early as like 1905, 1908 in the optics industry, right? High-performing industries and like explosive and munitions industries during World War I. And it's just taken us a really long time to take that data seriously. But I think we're finally at a point where it is getting a sympathetic hearing. So I nominate overworking. What did those industries see?

That people kept, that just accidents were happening when they were overworking people? Yeah. So you get more accidents, which in a munitions factory, when you're dealing with explosives, is not a good thing. But more generally, you get higher rates of mistakes. You see people overlooking small things that maybe signal big problems down the line. So a few years ago, Samsung had an issue

with one of its cell phones with the batteries exploding. And this was like one in a million odds of it happening. But when you sell several hundred million of these things, you got a class action suit. And one of the things they found was that the engineers who were working on this were working like 80-hour weeks, literally sleeping, you know, sleeping under their desks.

And they had some data that suggested that this was potentially a problem, but they were so rushed and basically so exhausted that nobody followed up on it. And so, you know, I think it's, and, you know, today, when you've got incredibly complicated technologies, amazingly sophisticated products,

that kind of, you know, that kind of really tiny problem actually can have gigantic consequences now. And then, you know, people also are more likely to get sick, to just up and quit. They're also more likely to cut corners and cheat when sort of they're overworked and tired. So, a good look like if you're an investment bank or a law firm or something. And so for all of these reasons, it turns out it's not good for people and it's not good for companies. So what I'm hearing is they work smart, not hard, and that you're basically a hater on the grind set would You know, would be my definition of what you just said. Is it okay if we just come out and say that you might be a hater against the grind set mindset?

You know, I will also add the odds of crashing your Lambo go up a lot when you're sleep deprived. So, you know, until they come out with a self-driving version, then this may be something to consider. I mean, that's cool, though, dude. I'll just throw another 300 hours on and get me another Lambo. That's the thing. That's how easy it is. You know what I mean? I think that's what the mindset some people have.

It's too scarce. There aren't enough Lambos out there. There are enough Lambos out there. There's not enough hours in the day. That's what we're all in search of. I mean, should we just, like with all the slander against uh grind set should we just run through our schedule real quick and see if yeah maybe yeah i mean you can find anything wrong with yeah like if he spots any problems so all right i mean i don't know about you miles i wake up at 2 a.m before mark

walberg before the rock okay i fuel my workout by thinking about all my enemies still sleeping in their beds right and laugh to myself so loud that it wakes people that i share a house with because they're you know it's just funny to me yeah they're uh they they're sleeping while they're eating your dust yeah exactly they're sleeping and inhaling a bunch of dust is what's happening to them how about you when do you when do you wake i wake up you know i'd be honest uh you said you wake up at 2 a.m yeah oh man and this is every day this is humiliating for me because i always we always live comparatively as we both realize that's the healthiest way to live is to compare your situation to another drive each other This is humiliating for me because I always, we always live comparatively as we both realize

that's the healthiest way to live is to compare your situation to another person. Drive each other. Drive each other. Exactly. Drive each other towards total dissatisfaction with our lives. And so I wake up at 345 actually. Wow. Yeah.

So don't judge me. I mean. But then I work out, work out till five, um, shower, drink two pots of coffee. Uh, then five 30, I begin working, reading the news, writing, then at 10 to three back to work, uh, doing the real work. Yeah. That's like recording the show, taking meetings, doing development stuff, things like that. So you're working, but then the next thing on your schedule is back to work.

Yep, exactly. Well, the real work, obviously. Then 3 p.m., I obviously take a second to be a parent. I look at my infant son on the monitor for about 15, 20 seconds. Then I go back to work again. Then 5.30, have a light breakfast. 6 to 9 p.m., look through used Lambo listings to see what's out there. 9 p.m., I eat a lunch of whatever my wife and son have left over from their quote-unquote dinner.

Yes. Do you also go in after they leave? Because I've noticed that sometimes that creates friction. Like when I go in and they're still there, it creates friction. It slows me down a little bit. I look through the doorway and I giggle to myself and I go, that's why y'all are unemployed. And I get

back to it then again, 9.15 to 12 a.m. leisure time. I do take some time out for myself. That's where I watch American Psycho on VHS. Right now I'm trying to learn every single line word for word. That's what I do in my leisure time. Then 12 a.m., time for dinner, where I just go for a run in the park, where I'm usually looking for sleeping squirrels to eat.

And then at 2 a.m., I go to bed. Do it all over again. I'm sorry, and I cut you off. So you're up at 2. Up at 2. So by the time you wake up, unfortunately, my man, A bit too. So by the time you wake up, unfortunately, my man, I am already out the door on my way to the hospital because I'm generally unable to see I can't remember if I've like done that already that day or if it was the day before or like a month ago. So I just like to check in with urgent care just to be like everything look okay here. Do I have any major holes in my body?

Yeah. But other than that, it's like a lot of the same stuff, you know, five 15, I add in a little, you know, give my reflection in the mirror, the get to work fat boy speech, but then I'm just grinding, straight grinding. You know, 8.30, I will usually come to in a parking garage or grocery store loading bay somewhere within a 12 mile radius of my office. I'm working on my speed so i can get them radius up but then yeah just kind of use context clues to figure out how i got there and why i'm uh talking to the person i'm talking to yeah and then yeah midnight say good night to each individual picture of lambo an influencer on my vision board uh 1 35 a.m fall asleep standing up like a horse does that okay does that sound like what what do we

think in there do you think that is overwork would you call that overwork that's a good work-life balance no alex you know i i gotta say first of all i really admire sort of the like combination of sort of genghis khan elon musk and the joker that you've managed to sort of Genghis Khan, Elon Musk, and the Joker that you've managed to sort of achieve here. Oh my God. You, you listen to the show, right? Cause we always start off. That's our triune God, Genghis Khan, Elon Musk, and the Joker.

In the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. That's right. I might have a couple ideas, you know, around the edges about maybe expanding the amount of sleep that, and there's some good science behind why getting more than, let's say, 20 or 30 minutes of sleep per day is a good thing. And the other thing I might recommend is that there might be a little bit more room for some breaks, some non-Lambo and influencer-related activity. Okay. Yeah. Though, you know, I will say, looking back at my book, I studied a lot of historical before, you know, before the founding of the Lamborghini company. So, you know, you can't say that today, you know, would Charles Darwin, you know, not be going for a Lambo? Who knows?

Yeah. So here's the thing. I don't get the Lambo for the brakes. I get it for the gas. All gas, no brakes is how i live my life exactly so like a lambo so that's the thing that i feel like darwin kind of wouldn't have been able to wrap his mind around necessarily survival of the grindest is what he actually would have you know i came up with that concept but that's neither here nor there so there you go well thank you so much for

bearing with us and for uh looking at our schedules with us yeah what it what is something that you think is underrated let's pick up on where we were just a second ago and i think you know actually sleep is underrated despite you know or of the you know the like internet mattress companies and things that are or of you know that are sponsoring lots of podcasts, maybe like yours. I don't know. But, um, there's been a while. So no. Okay.

It's fine. Good. You're free to talk cash shit. Yeah. Sponsored us in a while. Tia, who wrote a terrific book that's actually behind me called Unaging, which is all about how all the amazing things you can do in order to have a great long life talks about sleep as one of the great secret weapons in our arsenal. And that it does amazing stuff for

brains, for bodies. It even does really good stuff, you know, for us creatively and helps us, you know, sort of helps us have better ideas and have better, more sustainable lives. So, and the problem is we underestimate, you know, we underestimate sleep at our peril, but everybody does it right. Nobody ever says I'll work when I'm dead, but you know, or if we do say I'll sleep when I'm dead, which is, you know, which, uh, sort of, which I think it, you know, just illustrates the way that we value the one, you know, the one over the other. So, right.

That's what I mean. And I never sleep because sleep is the cousin of death. Cousin of death. Yeah. That's because we're in a New York state of mind other so right that's what i mean i never sleep because sleep is the cousin of death yeah that's because we're in a new york state of mind yeah that's right yeah yeah that you talk you mentioned like the word obliquity which i had not really heard but like that kind of it's something it's an idea that i've been kind of dancing around and like talking about this show and talking about like people coming to, having scientific breakthroughs in their dreams, or that they're just being these unconscious forces in our lives that kind of break through and guide us in a direction that we might not be even consciously aware of. And just this idea that there's so much work happening at an unconscious level. And that's what you're, it seems like a lot of the value of rest and, you know, not being on task all the time to quote my other philosophical hero, Jeff Bezos,

you know, some off task time can actually make you much better at solving problems. Right. And like you, there, there is this anecdote that I'd never heard before, but about like how studies of the brain have found that the brain is using up as much, like when I'm staring off into space, you know, sitting at my desk and just like, I'm like, all right, my brain needs a rest. I'm looking off into space in the middle distance with my mouth open. Like that, that is that, that time my brain is using just as much oxygen as it does when I'm working on a problem. Right. And it's like, but, but my brain prefers or like craves that rest. Can you talk about that and like why you think it craves that? Yeah. Okay. So, you know, first off, absolutely correct that sort of our brains when we are apparently just spacing out are actually not slowing down or shutting off. They're just as active as they are when we are trying to do our taxes or, you know, or sort

of talk our kids out of. Oh, my God. Wait, hold on. You do your taxes. You know, sort of send. Hey, we're going to pick and choose here, Miles, because there's some there's some bad habits he's talking about. Yeah, that's you're giving that's Lambo money you're giving away. You're giving, that's Lambo money you're giving away, Alex. All right, we'll go on. But, you know, it turns out, you know, even when we're, when we're like, sort of thinking of nothing at all or, you know, sort of daydreaming, that there's a lot going on, you know, under the hood as it were. And what scientists have found is that there are basically parts of our brain

that switch on when we are, when we're mind-wandering, as they call it. And these are parts that are associated with creative thinking, with thinking about the future. It's often the more visual parts of our brains. And that default mode network, as of call it, does two things. Number one, it switches on really, really quickly. Like, in the time it takes us to blink your eyes, the default mode can be seen kind of firing up.

And the second thing is, the default mode is really good at attacking problems that you've been working on but haven't solved yet. So, when you're trying to remember, you know, the name of the actor who was in the movie and that other thing, and sort of it doesn't come to mind, you know, you can't remember it. And then five minutes later, sort of you're doing something else. And all of a sudden, the name pops into your head, right? It's Hugh Jackman, or? Yeah. And that's the default mode. I would never forget Hugh Jackman's name, but go ahead.

Okay. But that's the default mode, working on something even while your attention is moved elsewhere. And one of the things I think that really creative people are good at is recognizing just how powerful the default mode can be, especially if you give it some time, some regular time sort of in your day to do its thing. some regular time in your day to do its thing. And so not only do you have time for rest and recovery, but you get this kind of extra time when your creative subconscious is able to take on problems that you haven't been able to solve just by grinding away at them and find hacks and shortcuts and so forth

and find solutions that you haven't been able to find through sort of conscious effort, but are down there in your brain somewhere. And it can kind of bring into the surface for you. Yeah. Now we have to take a break. But before we do, just one thing I picked up from what you were just saying is that it sounds like you're having trouble remembering Hugh Jackman's name. And a helpful little trick is think huge jacked man, uh, and then picture him from Wolverine. And it like does, it's like a little mind palace thing, but there's also interesting other interesting stuff. Uh, let's take a quick break and we'll come back. Cause I want to hear you talk specifically, you know, about your

background as a historian of science and kind of how that led you to where you are today. So we'll be right back. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes! Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Sanner.

The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Cle Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series,

Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with former members and new,

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I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them boys. I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports.

Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained? This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. And we're back.

And yeah, so you started as a historian of science. And I've heard you talk about what you learned from Darwin and Ernst Macht talked about kind of these ideas of, you know, letting the subconscious take its turn. But can you just talk about like just looking at the historical record around these great thinkers and what they what they knew? Right. So, you know, part of the reason that I talk about these these folks in rest is, number one, their lives are really, really well documented, right? There were 14,000 letters in the Darwin Archive at Cambridge University. So we actually know an awful lot about their daily lives. you know, say with a pretty high degree of confidence, Charles Darwin was an important person who's, you know, who made an enduring contribution to our understanding of the natural world. And, you know, finally, in contrast to today's great, so many of today's great achievers, they don't, you know, we can see them without the filter of PR handlers and people who are worried about their stock price, making the argument that these people actually never rest. They're always serving the customer, creating delightful products, blah, blah, blah.

And so we have actually a better understanding of how they worked and how they did their work than we do of many inventors and entrepreneurs today. I don't know that little, uh, fish with feet that Darwin came up with was pretty sick marketing. I gotta say that branding is pretty tight. He, he's kind of a marketing genius. He did have his moments, you know, it's, I mean, it's just, it's just too bad that he was working before there was actually any, you know, social media. Yeah. I've always thought of him more as an influencer than anything. But yeah. Okay.

I think he did other important stuff. You know, he definitely had a lot of influence. No question about that. Yeah. And the other thing you see when you look at these lives is there's an amazing consistency in things like their daily schedules and sort of when they worked, when they took breaks, and how they kind of layered these periods of really focused work of only like 90 minutes to two hours, and then a break, and then another deep dive, what Cal Newport calls deep work. And you do that like three times a day.

And that's about all they needed in order to, you know, come up with ideas that sort of changed the world. And I think that's a, you know, it is a, it's a great challenge to the assumption that in order to do, you know, world-changing stuff, we have to work enormously long hours. We have to, in effect, sacrifice ourselves and our happiness and our health and sometimes our families in, you know, sort of to make, you know, sort of to reach some mountain top, make a discovery, you know, et cetera. And that it's possible to have, you know, sort of lives that are longer, that are more sustainable, but also still let us do really amazing work

that sort of, you know, lets us express our passions and that sort of is deeply satisfying for a really long time. So that ultimately is, you know, what Darwin taught me along with the fish with the feet. Yeah. Which is, I've got a, I got a ton of those in my garage trying to get rid of if you want to buy some. Yeah. And that is kind of the whole point of this episode is actually trying to help miles move that product because he is underwater on those things, man.

I shouldn't have made it in pure gold. I think that's right. I shouldn't have made it in pure gold i think that's right i shouldn't have made it in pure gold yeah um but what do you think like so i you know from my we talk about culturally right like how some places work themselves to death i know that from like i'm a japanese family who when i first like was working in media they thought my job was not serious because i wasn't like working day and night are what like sort of what was sort of the evolution of being able to be like i don't know darwin works like a couple hours a day to sort of this like new like the exaltation of like the the non-stop working person and that is why they are successful how did we like what what jumps did we make i'm assuming the industrial age had a lot to do with like the nonstop working person, and that is why they are successful.

How did we, like, what jumps did we make? I'm assuming the industrial age had a lot to do with that, but where were we and where are we now, essentially? It did have a lot to do with it, but even, you know, 100 years ago, there was this sense that, you know, super successful people have kind of earned the right to leisure because of their success. You know, not that getting rich meant that you had to never, ever stop. Like, if you look at old issues of Forbes magazine from the 1910s, 1920s, right?

Forbes magazine has never been one that's been especially critical of capitalists. never been one that's been especially critical of capitalists but you know lots of those profiles have stuff about how these guys spend like you know still go to minnesota to tramp in the woods where they grew up before you know sort of coming back to wall street and you know sort of you know and sort of cornering the silver market i think think, you know, so, you know, part, but what happened to change that, I think really starts like in the 70s and 80s when you have sort of the realignment of the American economy, you have sort of the,

along with the growth of the computer industry or the high-tech industry and finance simultaneously, both of which teach us that the way to be successful now is not to start at the bottom, pay your dues, and work your way up, right? The age in which both General Electric and General Motors could be run by guys named Charlie Wilson, both of whom started in the mailrooms of their companies, was now over, right? The way you became rich was to be like Steve Jobs, right? Or of overnight success or like, you know, Charlie Sheen in Wall Street.

And that becomes the model for what a successful career looks like, in a sense. You get rich before the next, you know, either before your technical skills become obsolete before the next turn of Moore's law means that someone else has a chance at bat or, you know, or of the next, or the,

you know, the next stage in the global economy or economic turndown or of, you know, wipes everybody out. And then, you know, wipes everybody out. And then, you know, other structural factors like sort of the growth of increasing reliance on sort of temporary labor, stalling of wages, and culturally, I think the sensibility that, you know, work goes from something that is important in every American's life to essentially the only thing, right? More important than family, than community, than religion. It means that it is like the undisputed champion of everybody's existence. And so, you know, all of that stuff together means that it's been really hard to push back against all of that and to imagine an alternative.

And it's taken something as dramatic as the pandemic, right, to sort of shift, to make a lot of us shift gears to see that actually, you know, all these things that we took for granted that we thought were like inevitable and inescapable turn out to be things that we can change and to begin to take seriously the possibility that we can actually you know rather than have our workplaces changed by a virus make these changes ourselves for ourselves for the better but you know that's that that's a that's a brief history of how we got how we got in here and how we're getting out it's interesting to me that it happened in like the 70s and 80s at a time when like people started really like hoarding and getting immoral amounts of wealth for like doing things that like building things that weren't lasting or, you know there's corporate raiding and stuff yeah corporate raiding like it reminds me of the anecdote from the people's history of the united states where like the war department changes its name to the department of defense at the moment that they start waging

non-defensive wars because they're like they need this you know linguistic defense mechanism to like throw people's attention away and it's like the the powers that be in capitalism need this idea that like well you just have to work harder you just outwork everyone to justify that they're actually not doing anything that is harder or more worthwhile and certainly not millions of times more important than the people who they're out earning by a factor of a million. You know, Jack, that points to another important thing, which is that, you know, we've we've come to see of both success and challenges in the workplace as totally like sort of individual and personal, right? Sort of my success is because I worked enormously long hours, not because I have a social network, I have patrons, friends, you know, et cetera, right? And if I have a, you know, sort of, if I have a, if I have a problem at work or if I want

to be more successful, sort of the, you know, the key is all in what I myself do, right? Get up earlier, hustle harder, et cetera. And I think that we've, you know, even those of us who turn out whose clocks have 30 hours in a day. Thank you. Discover that, you know, at some point you run out of hours. discover that, you know, at some point you run out of hours and the ability, you know, the ability to solve problems that way hits a limit. And the fact that we all share, that we all have these kinds of problems suggests that actually maybe a more powerful and enduring way to deal with them would be to solve them

together, right? To act collectively. them would be to solve them together, right? To act collectively. And that's one of the big things behind stuff like part of the four-day week is that, you know, it's something that's done in companies where everybody does it from the CEO or of, you know, CEO on down. And part of the success of the movement has been that it has, you know, it has shown us that, shown us the power of collective action to change how we work and to make work better for us all. Yeah. That just made me think of the fact that Zach Morris is the ultimate capitalist because he can freeze time. He can freeze time.

Yeah. And that saved by the reference. Saved by the bell. Yeah, of course. I don't think I have to explain that to anybody here, but I'm sure this comes up all the time in academic circles. But it was like that he was and that that was a fantasy. That was like a thing that I was when I was younger. I was like, oh, man, to be able to freeze time. You have like so good at things or like do all the all my work and then just like come back and it's really you know living my life on on zach morris's clock you know how like i'm curious to see like you know when i got a lot more on zach morris here miles uh if you oh no i was about to i was actually about to talk about uh the zach morris when he had to take two people to the same dance.

Jack, let me finish the question. Okay, go ahead. No, but Alex, I think when we talk, we talk a lot about on the show, just sort of the just terrible habit we have, especially in America and other like Western capitalist societies, just like it's all about work. Productivity is the only metric to define your life. And like, you know, we see that obviously like at the, in the more professional level, but I feel like it's also really difficult for people who like have like, you know, hourly wage working jobs and things like that. What is this sort of same way? Because obviously I feel like the four, when people go, like, I'm sure if you tell a business owner, it's like,

oh, four weeks, what for all my productivity to go down? How do those sort of lessons apply to various industries? Cause I can easily see how, like in a professional thing, it's like, well, we've got all these like invoices we have to process as an accounting firm or whatever. Once you're done, then you have something there. But like for something that's like sort of like an always on business, like retail consumer sort of facing business. What is the same way? What is the way that that needs to be messaged to those people for them to not think, well, my line will go down if this happens. And how does this, how does this sort of vision offer a new sort of form of, I guess, you know, time liberation for workers that are like in, like in every, every every sector right so okay first of all i

think that the you know it's it the four-day week is something that the very you know who's very earliest adopters tended more to be in like professional and creative services and partly because that work is kind of more malleable or more shapeable by individuals it's also tends to be a little more project-based. And so, and you know, you're not like actually moving physical things around. So sort of easier to imagine how to redesign it. But one of the really interesting things is that we've seen is it move into places like nursing. And I'm actually working with a police department that's moving, that is experimenting with 32-hour work weeks for officers.

And talk about two industries where you don't want sleep-deprived or overworked people coming in and making mistakes, like in an ICU of during any interaction with sort of with law enforcement. And what we found there is that, you know, okay, a couple things. Number one, that that kind of work turns out to be just as creative as what we think of as, you know, creative work of like people sitting around in meetings, you know, drawing on whiteboards. It's just, we don't recognize it as such, right? There's just as much ingenuity or problem-solving skill, et cetera, required to either defuse a situation to, you know, assess what's going on in an emergency room to calm down people. And that's, and so this

kind of work is just as responsive to the benefits of a shorter work week on the part of individuals. Now, the way that organizations make it work is for nurses, you know, like places like nursing homes, they have huge issues around sort of turnover and sort of recruitment and retention, right? These often are jobs that are not very well paid, they're highly stressful, and so it's easy for people to come into those jobs, work for maybe a year or two, and even if they like it, to find the stresses, you know, sort of are too much and for them to leave. Moving to a shorter work week means that they have more time for recovery. So more time to, you know, and that, but also it means that the organizations themselves, like nursing homes that have moved to six hour shifts while still paying people the same amount

of money that they were, that they were paying for eight hour shifts, they save enough in like in temp agency fees. You know, when someone calls in sick, you've got to get someone from a temp agency and it's like five times as expensive per hour as to, or of, you know, have a regular full time person. You save so much money on that, that the programs pay for themselves and you get higher quality care. So less administration of psychotropic drugs, fewer like bed sores, slips and falls, all the kinds of things that indicate whether, you know, whether nursing home residents or

people in a hospital are being well cared for. And so, you know, in a sense, basically, there are industries in which there are hidden costs to overwork and high turnover that a four-day week are subsidized by. And we're seeing that in the restaurant industry, in healthcare, the trial with the police force. It's an 80-person force, and they've saved something like $200,000 in overtime, which is incredible in the last four months or so that they've been doing it. And so it's not just that these are jobs that, you know, in which individuals benefit. But it turns out that once you dive into the numbers, there often are kind of systemic savings that justify moving from, you know, eight-hour shifts to shorter ones.

So, you know, even when you have to pay more people, you have to hire more staff. It's, you know, the numbers still work out. And then with retail, the most interesting thing I'm seeing has been sort of places that will stay open now for 12 hours and have two six hour shifts. So that means that you get more walk-in, you know, you get more walk-ins. People can, you know, come into the store or the garage before work, you know, maybe get some work done or before they've got to, you know, drop the kids off. And it means that, you know, for, you know, you get more customers and more revenue. And so even if you have to hire sort of one or two more people, it often can pay for

itself that way as sort of, you know pay for itself that way on more sales. It's wild to think about the creative work that police do. That's crazy because every time I'm pulled over, they're like, why are you in this neighborhood? Because they're coming up with really interesting reasons why I shouldn't be there. That is an exhaustion

issue. I'm like, dude, just get some rest. Hey, buddy. Do you need a nap? Sorry, officer. now yeah they have that it's an exhaustion issue i'm like dude just get some rest yeah hey buddy you could you need a nap sorry sorry uh officer sir you you seem so sleepy you seem so sleepy go to bed go to bed but no it's it it is like i'm is there are there any is there potentially any like this could apply to any job right like is there like in when looking at sort of the way we toil and labor is there any job where you're like okay maybe that one has to kind of stay that way that's it's sort of it seems i don't know from my perspective i'm like i think this applies to everything right can we just can we just call it a day everyone goes to four days i think you know

there were of looking at economically i think if you commute to work by helicopter it's going to be hard to move to a four-day week so like if you're working on an oil rig or something, right? It's like 10 days on, 10 days off. Just the cost of getting to work and back is such that a four-day week is probably not going to work very well. And then after that, it really becomes a matter of professional ideology. Hedge funds are not going to do it because they have constructed incredibly profitable systems for hiring 22-year-olds, working them to death, and then

discarding, you know, the desiccated husks three years later and hiring new kids. So until their Viking freezers are full of Wagyu beef in their apocalypse bunkers, they're not going to have a lot of incentive to change that. Oh, you're looking at my vision board?

Yeah, exactly. And even though they recognize that there are high costs to it and it leads to sort of instability for organizations and unnecessary burnout, until now, it's been hard to envision constructing something different. there definitely are older people in these fields who really resist the idea that you can you know sort of you can scale back hours and make the work better without making the work worse right you know occasionally you get people who say that i can't do this because look i don't have another life other than reading sec filings or you know xrays. So don't ask me to do this. Yeah. Yeah. Let's actually, let's take one more break. And then I have another thing that I heard you say that kind of made the whole thing fall into place for me.

So we'll be right back. I'm Jess Casavetto, executive producer of the hit Netflix documentary series Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and LA-based Shekinah Church, an alleged cult that has impacted members for over two decades. Jessica and I will delve into the hidden truths between high control groups and interview dancers, church members, and others whose lives and careers have been impacted, just like mine. Through powerful, in-depth interviews with

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People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Every great player needs a foil. I ain't really near them boys. I just come here to play basketball every single day, and that's what I focus on. From college to the pros, Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Angel Reese is a joy to watch. She is unapologetically Black. I love her. What exactly ignited this fire? Why has it been so good for the game? And can the fanfare surrounding these two supernovas be sustained?

This game is only going to get better because the talent is getting better. This new season will cover all things sports and culture. Listen to Naked Sports on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. And we're back. I was just telling these guys I once came to out of one of my sleep fugues while flying one of those oil rig helicopters. And I didn't even know how to fly a helicopter.

I didn't think. But I think i was just learning at an incredible rate it's called grinded man yeah that's right but so you i heard you interviewed where the host i think was 10 happier the host was like so but you're asking them to do the same amount of work in less time like how does that not cause problems? And you responded with the thing that makes this whole thing make sense to me, the idea that when you're a worker and you get to keep the dividends of your efficiency as the worker in this case. In the past, when you had workers doing their job more efficiently and just the overall goal, the overall idea was that they had to work 40 hours a week. If they did their job more efficiently, capital kept the dividends of that efficient work. They would just give you more work to do. So if I

figure out how to make eight baskets in four days, And it, you know, it used to be take me five days in the traditional version of things. Now my company asks me to make 10 baskets. There's just like, well, now you make two baskets a day, buddy. You just fucked up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. You just fucked yourself by learning to do that. So like the incentive structure is all off. And so, you know, in that case, I would probably keep it a secret or like build in efficiencies into my schedule so that I could, you know, kill time at work unless there was like some sort of structure attached to it. But even then, like working longer and faster and more intensely, like I might not share that

information with my fellow workers. I might try and, you know, or only apply it when like the incentive structure was set up in the right way. But like in a four day work week, you figure out how to make eight baskets. You get to keep the dividend of that efficiency by getting a day off to, you know, chill or do what you want. And also you don't have to like keep it a secret. It's just that like arbitrariness of that five day work week is like what gets in the way, like just being like, you have to fill the 40 hours. Also something that like I came across just in researching the five day or four day work week is the idea that like just the seven day week is also arbitrary

like years days months all correspond to physical events happening to our planet and the week is just kind of made up so like the the idea that like oh no we have to fill five sevenths of this seven day week is kind of bullshit. But, but yeah, that, that idea that like this allows you to have, like keep the dividends of your job, of like your efficiency and make your life better. Like that started that, that was kind of the key detail I needed to make this whole thing make sense to me. Does that help you kind of understand what's going on? And is that sort of the dynamic that you see going on when you see these programs working? Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think that one of the big ideas that we work with companies

and work with leadership to understand is that the four-day week is not just, you know, it's not a concession that companies are simply making to their workforces, but rather the four-day week is something that everybody is creating together, all right? By finding efficiencies, by making meetings shorter, by doing other things in order to use technology smarter or give people more focus time, you are in effect creating time that the creators are able to reclaim for themselves. And that's incredibly powerful for two reasons, right? First of all, it's a tremendously short feedback loop between what you're doing and what you get, right? It's not like, or if you're working harder, therefore, or if your retirement account is X

percent bigger, and you will appreciate that 40 years from now, it is, we've done these things together. And therefore, we can go home at the end of the day on Thursday and have a three-day weekend, sort of. So, you know, that's a very, very immediate tangible reward. The second thing I think that's important is the sort of collective aspect to it, right? That everybody works together in order to make this happen. One of the classic moves in, you know, sort of labor relations is, or management labor relations is, you know, offering the new guy on the factory line or the machine tool, you know, or the machine tool shop sort of more money if they can work faster. And the struggle always is between,

traditionally sort of wage incentives can be used as a way of breaking labor solidarity and forcing a ratcheting up of output at the expense of workers. And one of the things that skilled laborers, part of their power is an ability collectively to push back against increases in, you know, demands and increased productivity. And in a sense, the four-day week takes the kind of vision of collective action of efficiency and flips it around so that you are working together and you have a great incentive to share, you know, to share those greater efficiencies, to share ways of working smarter, but not in a way that benefits me, but comes at your expense, but helps all of us. And, you know, it does mean that companies, you know, have to sort of,

the one big thing they've got to they have to get their you know get their heads around is you don't you know let people figure all this stuff out and then at the end of the trial say you know it's awesome you figured out how to do all this work in four days now let's go back to five and you can just produce 20% more for me. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine we took that and do that five days a week. Fortunately, fortunately, it has not happened. And not with any of the companies that four-day week global has worked with. Number one, everybody recognizes that this is the fastest way to getting your business burned down and any jury saying, yeah, that's okay. We see where they're coming from.

Yeah. The perpetrators were acting out of a sense of justice. But also, the bosses get a four-day week, too. And for all of our, you know, sort of indignation at capitalism, it is a fact that, you know, particularly entrepreneurs and people in executive roles do have really high levels of stress, burnout, drug dependency, et cetera, all of which signals that they benefit just as much from a four-day week as everybody else. And so after six months of having a four-day work week, most CEOs are willing to say, actually, this is kind of saving my life and I'm not as much of a heart attack risk. And I remember the names of my children and that, you know, and my wife recognizes me and maybe, maybe I can live with that. So yeah. Is it sort of, do these like, do a lot of CEOs, because obviously those are are that's the neck that turns the head in most instances in an organization.

Does it take them to like they can't just understand it intellectually when this is described to them? It's sort of like I have to experience it and then I can come around because it's too abstract. Or do some people when told about like the efficiencies and how much how beneficial it is, not just for the business, but also the workers and employees that they're able to turn around. Like what? Cause I feel like that's, that's the one thing that's probably keeping so many companies from doing this. We're like, ah, that's a bunch of hippie crap or whatever they think it is. It's like, I'm a, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work till I die. And also I work hard so I can afford to do the drugs that I do.

I do the good ones. That's how I can afford more do the drugs that I do. I do the good ones. That's how I can afford more coke so I can do more. I could do more. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you raise a terrific point, which is that, you know, first of all, almost every company, there is some senior person who is championing this. Very often, you know, in startups, it's the founder or like founding team who have themselves spent like 10 or 15

years doing 70, 80 hour weeks. And they're realizing, you know, they've got kids now, they're getting a little older and they're wondering how much longer can I keep this up? wondering how much longer can I keep this up? And then I think that the, so they very often are leading the charge within their organizations. And then in terms of, you know, can you just look at the numbers? Did you have to feel it? You got to feel it. And I think that, you know, sort of one of the pieces of advice that we give to, let's say, people who are not at the executive level about how to sell this upwards is the numbers are good, but they're not the thing that really gets people over the line. What gets people over the line is a vision of how their lives and how everybody's life could be different and could be better if the CEO is

willing to take the lead on this. It's a little bit like one last job movies, which I absolutely love, right? You know, you've always got the rock or Nick Cage or someone you got to steal 50 cars before, you know, in 24 hours, or they're going to kill your brother? And one of the things, you know, and it's a huge goal, but in these movies, you never do it by yourself, right? The first thing you do is you assemble your team, you know, and, you know, it's, you know,

you have your sort of driver and your hacker and your master of disguise, et cetera. Maybe a big muscular huge jacked man exactly huge jacked man yeah to return to the previous to the who was in that again yeah i think yeah yeah but and you know one of the things that successful pitches do in a sense is say we've got the team right we've got the chief you know resource, we've got the team, right? We've got the chief, you know, resource officer, we've got sort of people in culture, we've got sort of this small crew

that's willing to do it, but we need the leader. And what CEO doesn't secretly want to be Nicholas Cage stealing 50 cars. And, you know, that's a, or that, you know, that turns it from, you know, kind of a, you know, an abstract, you know, business calculation into something for which they can really have sort of some passion and some dedication. Right. Yeah. And it appeals to the ego, which is always exactly, you know, it's a great, great tool, obviously when trying to motivate people. Yeah. This can't happen without you. But it will change everyone's life if it does. And you can be like a local god, you know, in your mind, if you'd be so kind enough and benevolent.

That's right. Well, I feel like we could keep talking about this for a long time with you. And we'll have to have you back on as you kind of continue to spread the word about this. But Dr. Alex Sujun King-Peng, it's such a pleasure having you on the show. Where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff, read you? Right. So the 4-Day Week Global's website is 4dayweek.com, which is very convenient. And then my book, Rest, is available everywhere books are sold and also the place where books are sold online. And then my book about the four day week is called Shorter.

And once again, that's out. And then I don't do a whole lot on social media these days because i'm more of busy with another book project and lots of other stuff but if you want to see like pictures of my dog on instagram i am ask pang a-s-k-p-a-n-g and that's actually my handle on pretty much everything so you can be part of that select circle of my 43 followers or so sort of social media. There you go. I like that. Yeah. I like that.

What kind of dog do you have? Just so we can chum the waters. Little 15, little 15 pounds Spaniel. Who's about, who's about like 16 years old now. So, um, we do. We do love an old Spaniel on this. Yeah, we do. We do.

We've had a couple of them. Uh, and is there a work of media that you've been enjoying a work of media that i've been enjoying um social or otherwise social or otherwise you know watching can i can i say sort of a certain sort of schadenfreude sort of watching the dumpster fire of X? That whole story, just living in Silicon Valley and knowing a couple people who had been working at Twitter, seeing what's been going on with that has been remarkable and terrifying. any other media that i've been enjoying rio which is uh i've been listening to a lot of rioichi sakamoto who was a you know composer he was a founding member of yellow magic orchestra and then went on and did lots of soundtracks and very experimental stuff he just died a few months ago so yeah in march yeah yeah in march but you, as an example of someone who was incredibly creative for an incredibly long time, he is sort of, I think, a real model for us all, right? The guy who could do, you know, bring electronic music to Japan, but also win an Oscar for, you know, his soundtrack work and collaborate with David Bowie, you know, or a co-star in a movie with David Bowie,

you know, this guy was a baller. And so I, and you know, his work is so varied. There's something in it for everyone. So that's amazing. So yeah,

that sounds great. And miles, where can people find you? Is there a work of media you've been enjoying? Oh man, find me on a, wherever they got the at thing shift, held the shift key and then hit number two and then type in miles of gray. M-I-L-E-S. Oh, I just hit my knee on the desk. M-I-L-E-S-O-F-G-R-A-Y. And then also, if you like basketball, you can hear Jack and I on our basketball podcast. Miles and Jack got mad boosties. And if you like a 90 day can hear Jack and I on our basketball podcast, Miles and Jack Got Mad Boosties.

And if you like 90 Day Fiance, catch me on 420 Day Fiance. And also The Good Thief. That's so many shows. So just look for me and you'll find the podcast we'll follow. Never stop listening to Miles' voice. No, please. That's all I hear. Although, help me get to Lambeau, please. I haven't seen my son in five months.

Then that's by choice that's by choice because i'm not done grinding it but stay strong alex has given me the the courage to maybe shave off an hour or two of just looking at used lambo ads and to that i i am i am i owe you a debt of gratitude uh let's see uh in terms of tweets or anything, I like, I, I don't, I don't have anything on Twitter or Instagram that I've liked. Uh, I, let's see, did I see anything? No, I don't really have anything to suggest at the moment. Just, uh, you know, let me know, put me onto something. I need a new show. Uh, that's a murder mystery because that's the only thing Her Majesty, my partner, likes to watch with me. She won't watch comedy with me.

So give me good and something with European people. That always works. So hit me up. I implore you. Gotta be European people. She loves a good European people being all mean and murdery. Alright. You can find

me on Twitter at Jack underscore o'brien uh tweet i've been enjoying david hines tweeted me so you just released the exorcist believer blumhouse yes me and you're calling the second one the exorcist deceiver yes me my pitch is for the third one blumhouse oh no me extreme air bud guy voice there's no rule that says a dog can't conduct an exorcism golden golden believer well you know it's up to you guys that's what you guys are the creative ones you're the ones

who are allowed to take breaks you can find us on twitter at daily zeitgeist we're at the daily zeitgeist on instagram we have a facebook fan page and a website dailyzeitgeist.com where we post our episodes and our footnotes where we link off to the information that we

talked about in today's episode as well as a song that we think you might enjoy, is there a song that you think people might enjoy yeah i was just listening to this duo that i think they're from atlanta i heard them years ago like where there was a track with clero like rapping on it with them they're called coco and claire claire and uh they have a track track called outro and it's like their music is just like fun DIY like bedroom hip hop and they're like monotone flow is just always I've always been a fan

so this is Outro by Coco and Claire Claire. Alright well we will link off to that in the footnotes The Daily Zeitgeist is a production of iHeartRadio for more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows that's going to do it for us this morning. Back this afternoon to tell you what is trending, and we will talk to y'all then. Bye.

Bye. hit Netflix documentary series, Dancing for the Devil, the 7M TikTok cult. And I'm Clea Gray, former member of 7M Films and Shekinah Church. And we're the host of the new podcast, Forgive Me For I Have Followed. Together, we'll be diving even deeper into the unbelievable stories behind 7M Films and Shekinah Church. Listen to Forgive Me For I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Give me for I Have Followed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Keri Champion, and this is Season 4 of Naked Sports.

Up first, I explore the making of a rivalry. Kaitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese. Every great player needs a foil. I know I'll go down in history. People are talking about women's basketball just because of one single game. Clark and Reese have changed the way we consume women's sports. Listen to the making of a rivalry, Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey, I'm Gianna Pradenti. And I'm Jermaine Jackson Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts.

There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Maury Tahiripour. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.