The Daily Zeitgeist - Fright-con #41 - Hannibal Lecter: America's Favorite Cannibal

Episode Date: October 12, 2026

In this spooky edition of ‘The Iconograph’, Jack and Miles are joined by podcasters Kim & Ket to talk about the only rube who pairs human liver and fava beans with a nice Chianti: Hannibal Lecter! They’ll explore the character’s bizarre & unsettling inspiration, his immediate cultural impact, his C-tier X-Men superpowers and much more!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hello, the internet. And welcome to this spin-off episode of their daily zeitgeist, which we're calling the iconograph instead of look at the zeitgeist through current events. On Monday mornings, we look at the zeitgeist through powerful, pop cultural deities that are our icons, or now that it's October, the powerful pop cultural demons who are our fright cons. It's spooky season. You done it. Last week, we kicked things off with a man who wants to suck your blood. And this week, we've got somebody who wants to wear your face. The most iconic serial killer, I would argue, fictional or real. The most iconic

cannibal, the number one villain on AFI's list of the best movie villains of all time. And he does it all with the personality of a cunty Dr. Frazier Crane. He's serving cunt in affectation and potentially at a dinner party. I'm joined as always by my co-host. He was once able to smell which variety of Old Spice body wash I was wearing through a plastic barrier. It's Miles Gray. Yes, Jack. You still enjoy Fiji, I see.

Oh, you brush with Sensidine. Yes, indeed. Because the cold ice cream hurts your teeth. I'm glad your scabs have healed. You wear swagger because you're hoping the name will rub off on you and lend you some confidence. Yet you remain rizzless and desperate. That would be amazing. That's a, like, if a haunted house has, had a little room where you could go and just get red to filth by Hannibal Lecter.

Yeah. That would be great. Your shoes look like shit. He's so rude about her shoes in silence of the limbs. He's like a nice suit, but your shoes betray that you are a yokel piece of shit. Anyways, Miles, we're thrilled to be joined in our third seat by the host of the very funny horror movie podcast. Kim and Kat, stay alive. Maybe.

they once ate someone's liver with father beans and a nice kianti and found it to be a terrible wine pairing. It's Kim Burns and Katram Porra! What's up, y'all? We are in our element. We're so excited to be here. Yes, yes, good, good, good. I mean, when we were like thinking, I'm like,

who are some spooky people we know? We're some spooky people. We know. We are spooky wookey. We're spooky yuki girls. I did look it up. Apparently liver of Fava Beans and Kianti would be bad. The flavors,

liver is too intense for like the iron of the liver mixed with the high tannins of the Kianti. Wow. Overwhelms. And the Fava Beans will call them police trying to solve a murder because they might as well not even be there. Oh, okay. They disappear in the mix, if you know what I'm saying.

Are Fava beans like Lava beans like L. Limer beans? Yeah, aren't they? I think, just like a more, that would suck if he was like, with some lima beans. What? No. Come up with a different way of saying that. Similar.

Similar and look. I did watch Silence of the Lambs again for probably like the tenth time. I will say his cuntiness was the thing that I was most struck, that I had like kind of forgotten the most. he like keeps shitting on her shoes when he interacts with the senator whose daughter is like at the bottom of a well

he like says some of the most depraved shit which I had remembered but then at the end he's like oh and by the way Senator love the suit I'm like I hope there's a drag bean somewhere that is Hannibal Lecter yeah yeah somehow that just

read you for Phil yeah but he's I I think he has a lot going for him in terms of cultural, demonic iconography. I think, like I said, I do think he's our most iconic serial killer, fictional or not. I think the competition is Jack the Ripper, who he's like the Babe Ruth of serial killers, I feel like is like an old school. But I will say when I was- Oh, yeah, people never seen like game footage of them.

Yeah. Like they only see pictures don't quite know. Just hurt the legend. Yeah. The legend never does. Yeah. He hits some real home runs. I'll tell you what.

That's really funny that you say. I was given in T-ball the nickname Jack the Ripper when I was like five by my T-ball coach, which should suggest to me, yes, iconic. But I do think it's lost a bit of its malice over time if you're giving a fucking five-year-old. By the way, that was when I peaked at T-ball and baseball. I was obsessed with baseball. I was good at T-ball because they keep it right there for you. And then once the ball started moving,

not even like once the kids started pitching 70 miles per hour, once the coaches started pitching, I could not make contact with the ball at all. Oh, man. That's how Kim sets up jokes for me. She just sits them right there. They go swing, swing, swing, swing. They go.

Rip that thing. Oh, right. Yeah, I swing and they throw it into the outfield for me. Wow, man. Holy shit. You really crushed that one. Jack the Ripper over here, huh? He's looking at their dugout.

I know. I was like, they call me Jack the Ripper. He played with Babe Ruth. The others, Manson is the other one that I think he's been diminished into like kind of weird little guy territory. He didn't even do his own work. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And he's a shitty musician. Yeah. And then in the world of fiction, yeah, once you hear Manson's music, you can't really go back to be like a lot. Yeah, aura killer. And then I think the closest we have in the world of fiction is probably John Doe from seven.

He's pretty iconic, but nobody's making a franchise about him for a number of reasons. He doesn't, like, give you the sort of affects that would inform other people's performances of serial killers or are. like perception of serial killers. I think the thing that Hannibal Lecter benefits from the most is being played by one of the greatest actors of all times in Anthony Hopkins because now you're not just like, because I feel like before that, like when she's walking through the, that sort of like lurk, weird prison, whatever that, uh, dungeon that where she first meets him.

Yeah. Those first serial killers still keep people in dungeons. That was a question. Yeah, I was like, damn full. You dug this out of the earth? It was 91, 92. We were like, yeah, yeah, sure, man. They're in a dungeon.

But I feel like those, just like those first serial killer she walks by were like the versions we had before you get to peak Anthony Hopkins who's just like, got a vibe as a way of speaking. Unbelievable. That is like hyperintelligence that is like really off putting, not just because he's a fucking murderer. He's completely still when she walks in. That shit is so trouble. Like he, yeah, he said he was channeling.

lizards and other reptiles. He gives Mir cat as well. Mere cat. The scariest animal of all. But anyways, I want to dig into his relation to serial killers writ large because I think it is one of the weirdest

parts of our iconography. Like this show is we're always you know, thinking about who we make icons, why we make them icons, how do they become icons? And I think one of the weirdest things is that serial killers are icons in the United States. Very strange relationship to Jeffrey Dahmer. I didn't realize this kind of, I knew they were around the same time. The way it actually played out is Silence of the Lambs comes out in 1991 on Valentine's Day for some fucking reason. Oh, how cute.

Jeffrey Dahmer is arrested in July of that year, and then Silence of the Lambs sweeps the Oscars like seven months after the Dahmer arrest. Oh, damn. That messaging. Tied up in there. Yeah, it's like all together. Did he start before the movie or he was like inspired by? Yeah.

So I actually. I think he was inspired by the movie in the sense of him saying that he was a cannibal. I actually don't know that he was actually. I think he, like when you dig into the details of the case, like he says he ate his victims, but like when you look at the statement by the police at first, they're like it doesn't indicate that.

And so I think it was like he was basically giving America what they want a little bit. We'll dig into it. Like for notoriety. Yeah, for notoriety. He saw a wave. Yeah, he caught. He saw a wave and he took it.

Rachel Dolajol, all of cannibals. I do think it's also interesting to just think about him in the context of cannibalism because that is an obsession that I'm personally not like I've always found it less interesting I think than other people like people

being obsessed with like the Donner party and like the alive movies um like that did you guys see alive and then like also society of the snow like the new alive movie? I don't think so.

It's really a meditation on like cannibalism in a way that I'm like man you guys are fucking so obsessed with this shit we have we have a lot of conversations about cannibalism on our show and like we really I'm super accepting of it like honestly I'm kind of like if we're stuck out there I'm eating you yeah yeah oh you like that I thought you meant like a murder is a cannibal like do you yeah but in all honesty like look at where we are in today's society to me it's like let's put our cannibals to use because I've met a lot more people that deserve to be devoured than I have cows. Yeah.

That's true. You look at Elon Musk's big torso. Oh, yeah. Think about the Oregon meat that's grown in there. It's like one of those Looney Tunes things where you see him and then he starts morphing into like a turkey on a spit. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I feel like people in the 90s were really looking at each other and just seeing big ham legs, steaming ham legs, because like this came out in 91, a live came out like one year later. People were just like, yeah, but what about cannibalism? Yeah, yeah, like those turkey legs at the rent fair. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So yeah, I don't know. I was claiming like, or I was like in my own head. I was like, I'm not into the cannibal stuff. But then I was doing the, uh, my notebook dump on the Dracula episode. and I was doing a Monster Mash power ranking of all the character because I feel like those are our main monsters. Right?

Right. Who show up at the Monster Mash? Yeah, the monster. If you show up in the Monster Mash, you are like one of our monsters. You're one of our core iconic monsters. Yeah. And so you've got Frankenstein,

Dracula all over that motherfucker. Oh, yeah. That song is a great example of, like Dracula essentially becomes the main character of the Monster Mash. They even make room for his son. He appears in the monster match. Oh, yeah.

But you got mummy, you got ghoul, you got Wolfman, you got zombie. Igor shows up. And I was realizing that like all of my top ones for being like most iconic spookiness are all cannibal monsters. Like it's vampire. It's Dracula. It's zombie. It's Wolfman. It's like anybody I'm afraid of getting eaten by is the one that I actually take seriously as a monster.

Whereas, like, Frankenstein is like a bunk-based monster to me. But do we know his diet? We don't, but it's not a core part of his mythology that, like, he comes after you and eats you. Okay. Like, Keogne, maybe? Yeah. Speaking of Dracula, this might be less interesting to you guys, but have you seen the Jonathan Dilly? I'm so glad you brought it up.

I'm so glad you brought it up. Dracula? No, what? This might just be going around with the lady. Oh, was it from the novel, like the book, like the book, audio book? They're doing an audio book. I saw that, yeah, that was, that was hot. Is anyone seeing my face?

Yeah, you were like blushed. Dracula really shot to the top of the line. The way he was talking and just the way she was like, he's like, drink it in. And I was like, yeah. What is this? What is this? Who is this?

Okay, so Jonathan Bailey. Fierro and Wicked or the oldest. brother in Bridgeton. Sure. Okay. He is doing an audio book of Dracula. With Ella Pernell from Yellow Jackets. Yeah.

Oh, another. Yeah. Cannibal shit. Cannibal shit. Yeah. So I mean. Cannibal shit. That's my rap.

That's your drop. Cannibal shit. So, yeah, he's just like reading. But somebody whipped out of camera, bless him. And it's. Yeah. It's good. Yeah.

Just like hot people reading feels like it should be a type of YouTube video. Yeah. I finally understood it was like to be like a familiar to a vampire. I'm like, yeah. Whoa. What was that? Keep talking that shit. Keep talking that shit.

Take a bite, daddy. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know who you are, sir, but okay. Yeah. It's, um, you're welcome for turning you on to that. Mm. Anyways, let's get into the research for Hannibal Lecter. Are you guys, I guess before we get into it, though, I'm curious to hear, are you guys fans of Sons of the Lambs, fans of Hannibal?

Huge. Yeah. Yeah. We actually, so the, you tell and cut, the mental hospital that he goes to in the movie, Shepard Pratt was like on campus where we went to college. Yeah. Across the street, but like they built. Yeah. The one with the dungeon?

Yes. Yes. The one we were just talking about. A dungeon? Like, you turned right and we took the same road to Shepard Pratt and then like where I lived at University Village and then you just crossed the street and that's a house. You guys were born to this. Yeah.

And I used to swim laps at the Shepard Pratt pool. Wow. And what else? Oh, my great grandmother spent some time there. Possibly in the dungeons. Yeah. Wow. With what's his face?

Where is it? Where in the country is it? Yeah, with Baltimore. With, yeah, my great grandmother. was rumor has it in, uh, Shepard Pratt with F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife,

Zelda, who really is the one he wrote great Gatsby, but let's throw her an insane asylum instead. Yeah. Um, she's crazy the way she's always making stuff up and writing it down. Exactly. You can't be she's a great author?

Nah, she's probably a witch or something. Yeah. Exactly. That's so wild. First of all, I do, I do love that it's like,

he's our most sophisticated fictional. He is America's Sherlock home. like he's our most sophisticated genius and we're like where do we make him from i don't know baltimore right okay bolmer represent all right hon hello i've been working on getting rid of my baltimore accent yeah hans yins understand hon you going down the ocean hon you going down the ocean i had his liver with some father beans in a diet cave right um So the A. F.I. did declare him our greatest movie villain of all time. He barely beat out. Norman Bates and Darth Vader, even though I will argue he's not really the villain of this movie. And like, the power of this movie is it allows you to root for a serial killer who eats people. A guy who artistically flays a man at the end. And we're like, yay! It has some of my favorite tropes from movies.

That one where it's like, wait, he took like 45 minutes to hang that guy up there and like design the room with his entrails and then get the lighting right. It's impressive. It has such dramatic lighting. It is very impressive. The way he used the bunting as wings. Right. Come on. It's gorgeous.

Yeah. Original artwork, critical thinking. Like he's, I mean, what's not to love? Social commentary. Yeah. I also love that he does the thing that all geniuses do in these sorts of movies where he does word jumbles. Where it's like he's put it using like anagrams. It's like it's just, you know, people love their little word puzzles in the newspaper.

And they love the idea of a serial killer who's like, and I've hidden the killer's name in this word search. Yes, it can go upside down. And diagonal. Diabolical. The new version, he's like, tell me, agent, darling. Do you play Wordle? Yes. Oh, my God.

You know he plays Wordle. You know he plays Wordle. But you know he's by doing it with like somehow in like two letters every time. For sure. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's so annoying playing Wardle with Hannibal. It's for the God.

The first version of Hannibal Lecter we got was. played by future succession star Brian Cox. I have not seen Manhunter. Have you guys seen Manhunter?

No, but that blew my mind when I read that. I was like, holy shit. So Manhunter is an adaptation of the novel Red Dragon,

which also later gets remade again with Hannibal Lecter in it. It is optioned by Dino de Laurentis who like owns the rights to the book

and the characters and he comes up more than any else in our icon episodes for some reason. This producer, Dino DeLorentis, who made, like, all the Stephen King movies and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle movies and

did it all in, like, North Carolina, just, like, created his own little weird Hollywood down there. I love that for him. So, he hired Michael Mann to make this movie. It was a massive flop. The Hannibal Lecter's, like, kind of just a side character.

They misspell his name, L-E-C-T-O-R-R. He keeps being like, fuck off for fun reason. They changed the name of the book because Dino DeLorentis thought that people would think it was a quote, Chopsocky movie from Hong Kong with the name Red Dragon. I did wear my Red Dragon. Oh, wow. That is a sick shirt.

That's dope. That's the one. Oh, is that Rexum though? It's Rexum. Yeah. Shout out the Welsh. But I was like, oh, they're the Red Dragon. Hey, shout out another Welsh.

Yeah, exactly. There you go. Yeah. Or he was concerned they would think it was about communism. So what year did that come out? That was 86, I believe. Yeah. The movie tanks. And so when Thomas Harris writes the sequel to Red Dragon called Silence of the Lambs, he owns the rights and was like, yeah, no thanks, buddy. Nobody can make a successful one of these movies and just like, doesn't even read the fucking book. No way. And so it's just

It's not going to be made until An actor by the name of Gene Hackman Comes through And was like, this character speaks to me Not only do I want to play Hannibal Lecter I want to direct this even though I'm not a director So it starts with Gene Hackman developing it to be the director

And play Hannibal Lecter Or he's like if that's too much Maybe I can step back and be Jack Crawford which he would be good as Jack Crawford. He'd be great as Jack Crawford, yeah. And then his daughter read the book and told him, Daddy, you're not making this movie. Really? Which is, all right, so that's a fucked up thing for her to have done.

She fucked her dad big time. Yeah. But for him to tell that story, he sucks so bad. Like, to be like, yeah, I would have been Hannibal Lecter if my dumb daughter hadn't convinced me, not to such a shitty thing. Like, how do you recover from that? Yeah, I convince my dad not to do silence of the lambs.

Or like, it could come be one of those things where like he somehow didn't do it and he's like, it's just easier. Like, yeah, my daughter was like, this is sick so I can't do it. And I'm trying to be a good dad, you know what I mean? That's why I'm not handling. Totally. It is, as the script is going around,

it is interesting. Like, now it's easy for us to forget because every TV show is basically Silence of the Lambs once Silence of the Lambs came out it just took over like all TV shows became FBI procedural with like the most disgusting

shit happening in every episode constantly but like when the script is going around people aren't just like turning it down they're like turning it down with extreme prejudice they're like how dare you send this to me what really what the fuck do you think I am

so like currently throwing up not being like, no, get it away. Gagging as they turn it down. Demi's first choice for Hannibal Lecter was, did you guys know this? Do you know who it was? No. Sean Connery. Which I didn't see why they would pick him.

Yeah. But I don't think it would have been the right choice. It would have not worked at all. Yeah. But I can see like why. Why do you think Connery would have been? Because I can only just. He also has like the quiet power vibes.

That's true. Okay. That's true. would have gone in the way that Anthony Hopkins did. Right, right, right. That's kind of what Demi says is that, like, he has this quiet, fierce intelligence, which is purely depicted through nonverbal means, because if you see him talk, you're like, not that much fierce intelligence.

If you talk under his own power without a script and talk about how, what he thinks of women, not the smart, not the most fierce intelligence that you've ever seen. But Connery turned it down and said that he thought it was disgusting and wouldn't dream of playing that part. So again, it's not just like, you know, we've chosen to go in a different direction on this one. They're like, this is fucked up, man. What are you thinking? Send me this to my client. And so he goes to Demi's second choice, which is Tony Hopkins, as he keeps calling him.

I do think just on the Connery thing, because Sean Connery, has been haunted by turning down many roles. He's always like The Matrix and Lord of the Rings. He was supposed to play Gandalf and Morpheus, I think. Morpheus. Oh, okay. Yeah. And he turned those down.

And I do think like he fucked up, turning those two down. I don't think there's a world where like he, I think he would have sucked as an animal lector. I don't think the movie works at all. No. It's funny thinking of like having Sean Connery in the red pill blue pill scene rather than just. Right.

You take the red pill. Wait, what? Hey, that was good. I wonder if that would have just put off like that whole thing from being some kind of like conservative sort of meme too. And I don't know, this guy's kind of dorky, dude. I think he kind of worked fine in that role. As morphous? Yeah, like as like a authority figure who's just like mysterious and, you know, I could see him working there.

Although him in sunglasses seems weird to me. But maybe they lose the sunglasses. that are just the little nose bridge of his nose. He's really so silly. Yeah. But he went from Connery right to Hopkins. Hopkins, again, like, easy to forget this, but he was not a big actor at the time. He was a character actor who was mainly known for the stage.

In 1980, he had been in The Elephant Man, and that was kind of the last successful movie that he had been in. he was in like I'm just going to read a list of the movies he was in between the elephant man and silence of the lambs a change of seasons the bounty the good father 84 charing cross road the dawning a chorus of disapproval desperate hours and like there are three years spans where he's in nothing during that period and then he's in silence the lamb so they're like he doesn't really have a major career and then like after this he's in Howard's in and like starts just being like the main go-to actor. But like he was not having a very successful career prior to this movie. And then there's a great anecdote where at Orion Pictures one week before they start shooting, they do a read-through of the script. And they're like in Hopkins has like found the character. And Demi says after which a producer responded to Hopkins's performance as

if you were the Kool-Aid man, whispering, Oh, yeah. Now, did they consider the Kool-Aid man for Hannibal Lecter? Right. I mean, it's an interesting. I could see him in that room. Could see her walking in and the Kool-Aid man is just standing there. He bust right out, though.

He do bust right out. That is the thing with him. Yeah. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back. We'll talk more. Tony Hopkins about his method and much more. We'll be right back.

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Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi You Wanto. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all.

I'm not going to get anyone fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree.

Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I'd. could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I don't really care. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast, the True Crime Comedy Podcasts, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Beyer.

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Get Blockers now, only at blockers.com. And we're back. We're back. And just taking a step back because of all the rejections, like being with extreme prejudice, Jody Foster was far from the first choice. And in fact, she was lobbying for the role. She, like, saw it. She had a clear vision.

She was like, oh, this is actually perfect for me. I'm going to win an Oscar for playing with the role. And so she's all over. She's like, just get me in the world. room, get me in the room, get me in the room. And Demi is like, anyone but her for a long time. Really? His first choice is Michelle Pfeiffer. Michelle Pfeiffer does the thing where she's like, it was a hard choice, but ultimately I've decided not to go with it. But like Meg Ryan, Laura Dern are also offered the role before Jody Foster.

America's like store. Yeah. It would be hard, but I could see a world where like some of those worked. I do, I do feel like those are the ones where you got to be like. like fuck that was that was a miss guys that was a miss um although i mean who know jody foster's so good in this role who maybe nobody yeah yeah yeah yeah and i just feel like two movie starish you know yeah and i also yeah i mean for me meg ryan is just a little too i don't even consider this a dig because it's necessary for certain things she's a little too aware of the camera for me whereas like i feel like what jody did was like we weren't even like the camera wasn't there Like she was just in it to win it, you know?

I don't know that Meg Ryan does it for me. My guy is also not an FBI. No. And like, I could see Michelle, because she has an intensity to her, but also she doesn't seem as like, not quite FBI agent the way like Jody Foster can.

It's like, it's funny because like when you compare them all, you kind of see like where the margins are that made Jody Foster like absolutely the perfect pick for this. Yeah. And unfortunately Laura Dern drives me nuts. but for no discernible reason. She just drives me crazy.

Brian, the editor, has chipped in with Laura Dern Too Tall, to which Super Producer Catherine said, I think you mean Laura too darn tall. That was beautiful, you guys. Really beautiful. You know what it is with Michelle Pfeiffer? I can't not picture her performance in dangerous minds. She's like, these people have dangerous minds.

Dangerous minds. You know, like, I don't think I bought her as, like, tough in that, in dangerous minds, you know. It was like, Julio comes out. I can't not picture her pulling up to Hannibal Lecter in that first scene and just taking the seat and turning it around backwards and sitting on it. All right, let's wrap. Let's wrap, Lector. Yeah. As I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I take a look at my life.

And she's like, uh-huh. realize there's nothing like. Oh my God. Wait, can somebody do that? Can we just like get those? Can we make that somehow? Can we make some? Yeah.

Yeah, I think we can. I mean, Coelio passed away, unfortunately, so we'll have to have a standard. Oh. Other people who are considered that there's always like a crazy long list of people who are considered. And I'm just going to read off a list. And then there are two names who I'm like, interesting. Okay.

So the people considered for Hannibal Lecter besides Sean Connery and Tony, David Bowie, Harrison Ford, Robin Williams, Charles Groden, Steve Martin, Tom Hanks, Jeremy Irons, Al Pacino, Bill Murray, and Warren Beatty. Too many comedians. Yeah. I don't even know what list you just read me. Rest in these, Robin Williams. Yeah. One hour photo was terrifying.

That's true. You know what I mean? He could have played Buffalo Bill. He couldn't have played. He could not have played. I can see Jeremy Irons is Jeremy Irons is the one that makes the most sense out of there. David Bowie

also in a weird way is like unnerving enough Steve Martin is The craziest thing I've ever heard Tom Hanks is also like they hadn't figured Tom Hanks out yet And so they were just like Takes off his shoes

And put on his house shoes As he's having a warmth They really did No. Okay, so what? Right. That was shot in 91. So right before that, he had done the bonfire of vanities. Joe versus the volcano. Turner and Hooch, the Burbs. Punchline big. They hadn't figured him out yet. They were like, this guy wants to be in dark stuff. Yeah. It's like, no, not quite. No, no. Although I will say. So we'll get to it. There was a lot of protests against the anti-trans, you know, depiction of Buffalo Bill and just like the general vibes of the movie like you know and there are people who defend against that but I think you watch the movie now and you're like they're this is

fucked up like for this to be a depiction of somebody who is like the movie goes out of its way to be like he's not actually trans he's just real messed up he thinks he is and you're like hold on he sought he sought treatment you know what I mean like that and they're not like the system failed him. They were like, he's too fucked up to even get the trans thing going. Right. But there's a lot of backlash to that. There are protests at the Academy

Awards. One of the protesters kicks a cop in the dick, which was funny. I appreciated that. Shout out to them. Sometimes you got to do what you got to do. We've talked a lot before about, you know, in our Indiana Jones episode about, you know, movies that were controversial in their time for being

what we now recognize is like completely fucked up. Like Temple of Doom. for instance. Just gestures to all the brown people in Indiana Jones. Exactly. And the way that George Lucas responded to that was like, people are going to attack you forever, you know, just not learning the lesson and then proceeding to with the Star Wars prequels, just be like, and now all of my favorite racist stereotypes as aliens.

Jonathan Demi listened to the people who were criticizing him and was like, my next movie, is going to take on LGBT-plus issues and made Philadelphia as his next movie with Tom Hanks. Really? Yeah, and that's like where that movie came from. He was like, yeah, I get it. It is fucked up. And like, I'm going to try and do better next time.

And he made Philadelphia. When do we ever? Yeah. When that's so rare. Because it's interesting to, I mean, like, I think he really took on, right? The depiction of trans people, especially in the late 80s, early 90s, sort of like, they're kind of weird spooky people. I don't know if they're not dangerous.

We don't know. And I think also, too, it sort of became an overarching depiction of trans people because you know, you would see it as jokes too. People would be like, all right, Buffalo Bill and say stuff like that. You realize it's coming from there. But then to then take that on and say, let me actually give something that will be constructive. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty rare.

And when you listen to like a lot of the conservative talking points about trans women who are actually trying to harm women and stuff like that and it's like where is that coming from it could be coming from the fact that like one of the most iconic you know trans adjacent characters in pop culture history is uh buffalo bill you know right and so like when jesse waters talks about trans women like i i guarantee like he is picturing fucking buffalo bill in the back of his mind it's so funny like i watched this when i was too young to have seen it all right um And for whatever reason, like he was just a bad guy to me. Like he, it didn't even like occur to me that he, that he was trans, which I guess is like kind of good.

Like it's not until we're like talking about it that I'm like, oh, right. He was like trans. Like that was part of it, you know. So it's, but it's like, yeah, that's the only characterization that you have of it. There's no sensitive depictions of trans people. I didn't even, I truly didn't even think about that. Yeah. So the blank check podcast did an episode of Silence the Lambs years ago, and they talk about

Anthony Hopkins's process, which I thought was cool because he is anti-like method. He's not like, he's like, yeah, no, I don't, like, I don't stay in character the whole time. K.K. Sam is very anti-Methed, by the way. That is where we land on method acting. Good. Yeah. I love the line from Olivier, Sir Lawrence Olivier, when he was acting opposite Dustin Hoffman and Marathon Man. And Dustin Hoffman was like in his like weird, you know, method shit.

And he said, have you tried acting, my dear boy? I love that. And that seems to be where like Anthony Hopkins comes from. His method though is I do think it's interesting just in terms. It's not that he doesn't prepare. He reads the script like up to 200 times until he can't not remember the lines. So it takes like no effort for him to like remember the lines. And then according to people.

Yeah. Yeah. Doing your homework. And then according to people who worked with him, he takes up, he gets into like once they finalize the costume, he gets into the costume, has someone take a Polaroid. And then just like stares at that Polaroid for like. 10 to 20 minutes and then like that's like when he becomes the character which I thought was fucking cool. I actually love that.

Yeah. Yeah. It's actually way more terrifying than even method acting sounds. I'd be like, hey, bro, why don't he just like pretend for a second? He's like, leave me alone. I'm looking at my Polaroid. Yeah. Oh, shit.

Yeah. All right. Do you, Tony? Um, but I do. The difference is that he doesn't need to stay in character. And I just want to, uh, I just, uh, sent a clip, a YouTube clip, Miles, if you don't mind playing that for...

For the class. For the class. Miles, would you play that? Why don't you share it with the class? Why don't you share that with a class? It looks really funny. So this is from the set of Sounds of the Lambs. It's Anthony Hopkins looking down, covered in blood,

from the scene where he's, like, about to murk the yokel FBI agent. This one is for you, A. Dunn. Oh, you, Pauley. let's go for it Rocky 5 let's do it now guy goes on the fucking box he just does like a riff

on Rocky 5 I love it and I do just there's one right immediately after that that's an accidental blooper that I do just want to play because it's just one of my favorite I think they should have left it in

this way freeze put your hands on your hips hands on your hips it's the climatic moment with Johnny Foster and pulls are gone on him and says,

freeze, put your hands on your hips. And then it's like, oh, that's incredible. When I dip, you dip, you dip, you dip.

God, I just, I just have to, I just get so horny for great acting. Like, that was just just, just ungrateful.

Like him just doing the, like, why are you doing an impression of Stavester Stallone right now? Like, what are you doing? You're incredible. And she's remember, this man has a Welsh accent. Like, that's crazy. I just, I'm going to do a whole podcast on just that clip thing you showed me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, I think it's like, it's one of those things.

It just shows such mastery of your art form. Yeah. Like, I guess I can throw away one and do a joke about Rocky. Let me try this character on really quick Just for a second to have fun And get right back into it Where like method actors feel like Bro, if I let go of this shit

I'm fuck, bro. I can't even I can't find that motherfucker again So I'm gonna have to be them For the whole time because I don't actually have the same control over this as Anthony Hopkins who's like watch this one What do you want to see? You want to see Sammy Davis Jr. now?

Right. That's it. Come on, babe. It's the head you tried acting my dear boy. It's just like this is the thing that I'm good at and I have fun with. It's not like,

this is like, I'm fucking dying up here. Right. For my, like nobody can mess with my. It's like, here, you know what,

you know what? I bet the crew would get a kick out of. Is if I just did a, weird, rocky riff for a second. Yeah. Because I can because I'm a generational talent as an actor.

Another, just a brief aside about the weird country that we live in. I was Googling around for details of his method. And so I typed, Anthony Hopkins method for getting, I was going to complete into character

and Google suggested Anthony Hopkins method for getting money Anthony Hopkins method for getting out of debt Anthony Hopkins method for getting a job and my favorite Anthony Hopkins method for getting pregnant Oh Yeah

I mean method forgetting It's just like completely disregarding the Anthony Hopkins part of Forgetting out of debt Oh you must be talking about the Anthony Hopkins method for getting pregnant. Right. Yes, yes, yes.

Yeah, you go have a salad at Coyote Cafe. Do we know for sure that Anthony Hopkins can't help us with our finances or our fertility? Yeah. He has a, yeah, a YouTube channel. He's been giving financial advice for us 15 years. The other probably the most iconic thing. I am in my Hannibal Lecter drag in the sense that I'm in a white t-shirt, which is white pants. Cute.

No, my pants are not bright white. Okay. Hiked up to your belly. T-shirt, hiked up to your belly. Slick back hair. Oh, yeah. Sloppy steaks. Anyways, the most iconic, like, part of his look is the mask, you know, that he gets rolled out in.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With the, like, muzzle over it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They tried fencing and hockey masks after going cannibal muzzle shopping at Dick's sports. And Jason was like, get out of my territory, bitch. It's really funny. You can like see these pictures of him in these like fencing masks and beekeeping masks that they had like tried that are like really weird.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. It's just got a screen over it. Like that's going to stop him. Yeah. And then the cage of basically an umpire's mask. Then they went to an ICU nurse.

who designed NHL Gulley masks in his spare time. And was like, hey, weird, weird combination of expertise, but could you create us a cannibal muzzle? And he was like, yeah, okay. Oh, here, he's like, you want this one? I already made it. I make these. Yeah.

Because that makes sense because it's so reminiscent of like a hockey mask. Yeah. It's like Jason-esque, too, that I didn't even realize that was designed by someone who was making hockey mask. Right. And then he sent it to them. The idea was that it was going to be painted and, I think, painted black. And he tried it on.

And they were like, oh, no, that's actually it. Because it's like kind of flesh toned and it kind of looks like leather a little bit. Yeah. And remind me, it is just, it's like this. It's like a half. It's like a half piece. Yeah. With like a little mouth cage.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here's Billy Crystal wearing it as he's hosting the Oscar. that year. No way. Yeah.

I remember that. So. Anyone looks good in that. I know. I can even like, Billy Crystal could have been Hannibal looked at when I see it as fast. Honestly. Oh my God.

And then Meg Ryan could have been. Yes. Oh my God. Yeah. Can you imagine that kind of casting? We're like, hey, Harry Met Sally. I got a totally new vibe for the two of them. Totally new take. Yeah.

It is a bit of a rom-com. I will say. Like, I mean, There's some sexual tension there that, as we'll find out, gets consummated in the sequel novel in a horrible way. It's really, we're going to get, yeah. Weird. But anyways, in terms of pop cultural reference, I mean, this movie, like, took over the world. You know, Billy Crystal was the host of the Oscars.

He gets wheeled out in the mask. Unfortunately, it did not stop him from singing one of those Oscar medleys. but Jim Carrey so all three of the main Jim Carrey movies or I guess not three of the four because the mask did not as far as I know have had a mask

Silence of the Lamb's reference other than being about a mask but there's him with meat on his face and cable guy saying hello Clarice Silence of the Lambs yeah he actually he has chicken skin on his face the first thing he just goes is Silence of the Lance

which is so dumb When they're at medieval times. Yeah. Um, dumb and dumber, both of them are talking about, like, an attractive person walks by and say,

I'd love to eat her liver with some fava beans and a nice kianti. And they both go, yeah. Yeah. Right. Ace Ventura, he says Finkel's newspaper clipping, uh,

covered room is cozy. If you're Hannibal Lecter. Um, and then also that movie has a transphobic villain. And Jim Carrey actually consulted with Anthony Hopkins when preparing. for the role of Ace Ventura. He was like, yeah, so like, I'm, because Jim Carrey is like the opposite of what we were saying earlier

with, like, people who don't take acting seriously. He, like, takes that shit so seriously. He's like, so I, the way I found out about Anthony Hopkins saying that he, like, kind of channeled lizards and reptiles for the role is from Jim Carrey because he was like, I do animal work. And so Ace is a bit of a bird. And I asked Anthony Hopkins, like, what he is. And he told me he was, like, more.

lizardy. Wow. But he was obsessed with Sounds of the Lambs. There are other people who are obsessed with clearly. Jonathan.

What's his name? Taylor Thomas. Jonathan Taylor Thomas. David Foster Wallace. The guy wrote Infinite Jest. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

David Foster Wallace is like that that's the best novel that's ever been written. Like you think Sounds of the Lambs is like the best book of all time. And the Simpsons are obsessed with Silence of the Lambs. but like really everyone in comedy was obsessed with making Silence the Lambs references.

Then and to this day, I still remember Mr. Burns being wheeled out in the Lecter Mask in the monorail episode of the Simpsons. I found this highlight reel of pop cultural references to Sounds of the Lambs. And it's like a lot of, you know, sitcoms and, you know, friends and, you know, just doing the Fava beans. There's also Garfield threatening to eat. eat a cat's liver with fava beans and a nice kianti in,

oh no, Garfield, too, a tale of two kitties. Like, it's in a lot of kids pop culture. Sure. It's kind of fucking crazy.

Yeah. I mean, it was one of those things, too. I remember when it was, the visual was everywhere. I didn't see it because I was probably like eight or seven when it came out. But I saw like a couple years.

Once it got on tape, I remember seeing it and everything just went, whoosh. over my head. Yeah. But I remember so then, because then all I came away with like is, there was like,

yeah, this guy goes and he wears a mask. And I think, and I think I've pretty much understood the entire film. Yeah. I'm,

I got it. Yeah. Yeah. There's also this George H.W. Bush commencement address at the FBI Academy in Quantico, where he goes, on my way in,

I may have spotted Hannibal the cannibal in the audience. Oh, Lord. And people like laugh. And then he goes, For those parents and others, that's an inside joke that I'm not sure I even understand myself. He's such a fucking dork. That guy's so much. It's not an inside joke.

It's a pop cultural reference. And are you, he's like, I don't get it. I'm told jokes I don't get, but I'm told they're very funny. Yeah. It's an inside joke that I have no idea. It's a little bit of CIA humor for everybody. Let's take another quick break. We'll come back.

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So when he's first introduced in Red Dragon, we immediately learn he's cultured. He's reading Dumas and has a nose like a bloodhound. And he observes that FBI profiler Will Graham, who had caught Lecter is wearing the same cologna's in court, which like that's, they like take that instead. step it up into superhero level with like being able to smell Clarice's body soap and knowing which brand it is is like that seems a little far like how the fuck do you know

that how are you staying up on all the all the latest trends in perfume for me to explain every Friday evening I go to Riteade and I peruse the lotion aisle and I smell them all I mean it's a step below

scent of a woman which came out around the same time and had Al Pacino being able to tell what a woman's name was based on the perfume she wore. So we were just really into like men's olfactory capabilities in the 80s. Okay. But then it was like that, you think he'd be better at pairing wine and beans. Yeah. That is such a good point. That's true.

That's true. Although we don't know the taste of a human liver. It could be very different than beef for chicken. Maybe it is different. They say it's very pungent irony and that not not. A human liver? Yeah, the human liver. That's what they say.

Oh, wow. I went deep on my research for this one, Miles. Yeah. All right, dude. Who says that? Yeah. Don't worry about it. I do currently have an iron deficiency.

So, like, this is medically interesting to me that maybe I should. Do you ever eat liver? Well, I haven't. Maybe that's the problem. I mean, just for a fun, you know, since it might help you, you know, with your iron deficiency. Try it with some fava beans and a nice kionti. I mean, yeah. The problem is, is I'm a vegetarian.

I don't eat animals. So it would have to be a human liver, which I don't know. You don't need animals, but you would eat the right human. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. She doesn't eat animals, Jack. Yeah, not all humans. I'm not crazy.

She's not a monster. Yeah, I'm not a crazy monster. So one of his inspirations for Lecter, he says, can be traced back. This is Harris, you know, the novelist. So he was a journalist working on a magazine. article for Argosy in 1959 about a murder case in Mexico and before interviewing

the accused killer he met a prison doctor who he later referred to as Dr. Salazar and he's this is a weird description he said he had the eyes of a fierce turtle but he was a small live man and seemed very very

smart and Dr. Salazar as he's about to go in recommends that Harris not wear sunglasses when speaking with a prisoner as the murderer may have been motivated by self-loathing caused by scars on his face and the reflection in the glasses could trigger that trauma and make him either. And so we could see his fierce turtle eyes. Yes, exactly. Right. So he's like, thanks for the advice.

He goes, is able to interview the serial killer. And then is later speaking with a warden and he's like, that Dr. Salazar is great. And the warden's like, oh, that's not a real doctor. That's an inmate. What? No. He's not an employee. He's a former, he's a former surgeon who had committed murder.

Shut up. Doesn't that feel like they should have had a brighter line between like prison doctor and murderer who likes to pretend to be a prison doctor? That is the best thing I've ever heard in my life. Isn't that crazy? Classic like comedy bit of like a doctor in an office. Like, okay, and do this. And the real doctor comes like, hey, what I tell you? out of here, like, whoa?

Who was that? That guy was a murderer. They do it in 30 Rock with Chris Pernell's Dr. Spachan. Yeah. So Salazar was sentenced to death in 1961. He had, I think, chopped up his partner and, like, I don't know, taking him in a taxi to, like, distribute the body parts.

But his sentence was, he was. He really brushed over that. He was really. like people loved him in jail. He was full of good advice and his sentence was commuted after 20 years, at which point he returned to his old neighborhood

in Monterey to treat the sick and the poor for free. Listen. Listen. Okay, doctor. We're all multi-dimensional characters. You know? I mean, this guy sounds great. Yeah.

He just mutilated a body. All right. killed somebody, but we don't know what that partner did. Yeah. What did he do to deserve it, you know? That's what I'm saying. He's got a lot of Sherlock in him, as we mentioned. So he's that guy crossed with fictional characters like Sherlock Holmes.

I'm doing a deep dive on this doctor. What is it, Dr. Salazar? Salazar. Salazar. I'm diving in. It's such a wild story. It feels like it can't be true. and yet like she's on the record

and then people like went and looked into it and like found the guy and we're like whoa not Dr. Salad Zar Brian Brian said salad CZAR that's not who Also what is that prison like

where anybody's pulling up people are just loose of a doctor and you're like yeah aren't these people murders Hey my man my man my man let me holler at you real quick my man my man Yeah, right here, right, right, right, right.

You good? You good? You good. Hey, how are you doing, man? Dr. Zalazar. Good to meet you. He's lucky to have survived that situation. Right?

Yeah. Step into my office real quick. Why is your office a prison cell? Don't worry. We're just remodeling, man. The budget cuts, dude. This is really great. I just, I'm very excited about this new knowledge.

Yeah. That I have. Every little thing I'm learning. Because the movie is just, I, I love seeing Anthony Hopkins in it, but just knowing all these other details. It's like his method that it's based on some other literal murder who was pretending to be a doctor but had amazing charisma. Amazing charisma. And good theories.

Like that, even though that might not have been true about the like sunglasses. Like it's still. That's this. It's like perfect CSI logic. Yeah. Like it's just a good, I don't know. Perfect like Joe Rogan guest too. Exactly.

We're like, people have been critically. They're like, dude, you see the Dr. Salazar on Joe Rogan? Oh, my God. Does she do a say? It makes so much sense about him. Oh, my God. The character is such a hit that a psychologist at the time reported that nearly a third of her male patients wanted to talk about Lecter after losing sleep over the movie. But that people were like kind of rooting for him.

And that like if you rewatch the movie, he's a cannibalistic serial killer. But the movie is very carefully set up so that you're always kind of rooting for him. you're like, well, he's not going to do anything to Clarice. And Clarice is a good guy and everybody else is a bad guy around him. So, like, I wouldn't mind if he actually killed those people. Yeah, Chilton sucks. Yeah. He also has actual superpowers.

He has the Sherlock Holmes, like, superpowers of deduction. He also has, like, the ability to control people through, like, he makes a guy swallow his tongue using. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just with whispers? Yeah, just using his whispers. So he's, like, essentially an X-Men. Yeah, sure. And then, yeah, it's, I think it's that.

And I think it's like creating a serial killer character that we can root for is, I think that's the sweet spot. I think that's what they did here that is, in addition to all the other ways that they got amazingly lucky with, you know, casting and the genius of Anthony Hopkins finally, like, finding a way to break through to the mainstream. cream. People are fascinated with these fuckers, serial killers. Right. Like it's just they can't get enough. And they nailed exactly what we want in our serial killers. Like he is the platonic ideal of a serial killer. We want them to be smart. We want them to be gruesome but artistic. We want a method for their madness. We want the world and their crimes to be little puzzles that they built for us, you know? Yeah, because people are so obsessed with like their mind like the show mind hunting.

Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. You want to figure out like why is this happening. Yeah. Versus like what was probably the portrayal, I assume, before this mostly where it's just like they're crazy. Yeah, right, right, right. And that's why we need really good cops to find them.

You see? That's the other part because these guys are normal humans. That's why we need a bunch of super cops to be out there to keep us safe too. Yeah. And they're not pretty, based on the amount that they're, killing without being discovered, it sounds like the cop fucking suck. Really? That's odd.

Odd, odd. Yeah. I mean, the truth, first of all, the truth about serial killers. Yes, that's a very good point about, because we have like this entire world of copaganda, right, of, you know, cops being smart and using their wit, you know, it makes sense that it goes from Sherlock Holmes being like the super cop who has insane, you know, powers of deduble. and now it's like, and we also want a serial killer who has insane powers of deduction. The truth about serial killers is much dumber. There are like, but one of the most prominent theories about like where serial killers came from because there is like in 1940 there were 55 serial killers.

In 1950 there were 72. In 1960, there were 217. 1970 there were 605 By 1980 there were 768 And then by like 2020 there were 117 again So it was like this massive wave That happened in the 60s and 70s

And one of the theories On where that came from Is that There's a Pulitzer Prize winning author Caroline Fraser who wrote a book That her speculation is just like that it was lead poisoning, essentially. What?

And like that you can see there were all of the crime rates and stuff. Yeah, all of these like major, like I think it's, what's the family? Like the Rockefellers or, you know, these like major industrial families had these giant smelting plants. And like you can see preponderance of serial killers who like lived by these smelting plants where there was like really high lead levels. Way.

Yeah. I've never heard this. before that's me either. The quote from her book, it's August of 1961. There are three males who live in what you might call the neighborhood. She also grew up there within a circle whose center is Tacoma, Washington.

Their names are Charles Manson, Ted Bundy, and Gary Ridgeway. What are the odds? Yeah, right. So it's been the billionaires all along. It's been the billionaires all along. Yes. And then also,

letted gas, too. It's like, I don't know. Gasoline was like more, but like really. intense lead poisoning in Washington? I know you can't in Oregon. So I wonder to if like you're,

you're the one pumping the gas too and that also. You're like getting exposed to leaded gasoline. And there's other like people think it also had to do with like being crimes of opportunity like because cars were a thing and interstate highways were a thing and hitchhiking. People were hitchhiking a lot. And so that also was something that had kind of popped up around that time. And so there were fewer fewer and fewer opportunities. But I do think one of the.

main things that is woven throughout all of this is that the police were and continue to be fucking idiots. Right. Exactly. She, in this book where she's talking about like this rise of, uh, serial killers instead of being like, you know, talking about, uh, in this New Yorker article, they say like, she, she declines to indulge the allure of Bundy's lector like cunning, emphasizing instead the raft of mistakes made by law enforcement officers in their ham-handed pursuit. And like that is the story. It's like when you test serial killers intelligence, it is exactly at average. And yet they're outwitting the police. So what does that tell you about the police? Oh, there's just an open window. I don't know what I was supposed to be. If I'm at it.

So wait a minute. You were camped out forever, weren't you? This is all of this propaganda to have like really smart puzzler, riddler, riddler, serial killers like from the cops being like, no, They're just like so smart, you guys. Like, it's not us. We're just like, they're so smart. I think it's what we want to believe. I think that, like, the FBI is involved in, in the same way that the Air Force is involved in the making of top gun.

The FBI is involved in the making of Silence of the Lambs. They're like, yeah, you can have access to like all this stuff, but we need you. And by the way, their notes were fucking terrible and not taken in the vast majority. They're like, this should be Steve Martin. Yeah. The FBI literally said this should be rated PG. And they were like, and also, we would never send an inexperienced person to talk to Hannibal Lecter. So like the main thing that is like the plot and what's cool about it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. They wouldn't send this dizzy broad. Is that a cool? Yeah. Like, we were talking about Dahmer. Like, Dahmer is a serial killer because his parole officer.

had too many cases to check on and didn't do home visit. Like she was supposed to be doing home visits at a time when he was killing his first victims. And instead, you know, the city was just, they probably had like three instead of 300, you know, caseworkers. And so she wasn't able to do that. And like all the murders happened after that. Like it's it. We have serial killers because we don't prioritize not having them. Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In America. Right. Yeah, in America. Like, it was like, you know, my daughter is missing. And it's like, she probably ran away or like, you know, my daughter is missing. Well, she was a sex worker. Like, it was a lot of times, like, it stopped at the victim of like, this doesn't require

investigation. And it's like, well, we probably could have caught the serial killer sooner if we had, like, treated these victims as human beings. And the other thing, too, is like, you know, we had a guest on a Lymea Lurin who had like a video essay about. about like how, you know, our obsession with serial killers is just like this, you know, continuation of propaganda more in the sense that if we create these characters who are not human in these serial killers, then we don't have to acknowledge the human context in which

they arise from. Therefore, we don't have to actually correct the human context in which these people arise from because it's just a, some people are just fucking wacky, man. And we, that's why we need cops rather than like, I don't know, man, maybe we can clean up the environment. Maybe these people need support, maybe these other things like they, they don't just happen in a vacuum, but to flatten it to monster, good guy, then no real thought has to be given to them. And it's not that you're kind of trying to create sympathy, but understanding about what this is. And like, speaking of Baltimore, actually, I mean, one of the things that they're doing in Baltimore that the mayor of Baltimore is doing is like, when a murder happens, instead of, you know, what they've been doing

for decades and decades and decades, the cops, the social workers and everyone, they go, and talk to the victim's friends, and they're like, hey, we know that this is, like, really traumatic for you, and you could be, like, looking for revenge, whatever, but, like, we want to get you the help that you need. We want to get you resources. We want to, and all of a sudden, like, the murder rate dropped, like, down to the basement in Baltimore, you know? Instead of providing cops with more money to antagonize everybody in the community.

Exactly. It's like, what if we just gave them mental health? help and support. Like they're humans? Right. I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy to be considering them humans.

We're constantly like just societally in this thing of like trying to get people to acknowledge people's humanity, whether that's go down the list. You know what I mean? Especially right now. Like we're just, we're people are struggling with the just very bare minimum concept of humanity. Yeah. And we have so many things that flattened this idea of what is, what who a person is.

That has people being like, I don't know, maybe it's burn, maybe it's, I don't know, do I need to care about it? It's, yeah, right. It's, and I think a lot of that, we, we realize we're consuming like things passively that kind of just trying to perpetuate our inability to kind of be like, we're all people. We're all humans. Yeah. Except for Hannibal Lecter. He's, he's sick, dude. He's sick with it.

But yeah, I mean, it's, sounds the lambs of a terrifying movie, but I do think it's partially like, like, popular because of witch fulfillment, because it, like, gives us the. serial killer we want and it gives us the cop that we want you know the idea of a police force that I think people wish was out there. Benevolent and strong. Yeah. Not constantly tripping over their own pants and ending up with a bucket on their head. Like a dead bystander next to them that they accidentally shot. Yeah.

Chris Isaac leading a SWAT team. Oh yeah. Chris Isaac is in there. Chris Isaac's face is like he has such a small role. Shut up. Right now. Oh my God, that's him. Yeah.

So when he comes, when they noticed the blood dripping down from the elevator, that's the guy goes, he's in the elevator shaft. He's talking to Chris Isaac. Way. It's like right after Wicked Game came out too. Oh my gosh. That's wild. Yeah.

No, uh, speaking of cannibalism. Keep going. No, no, you can't start. Speaking of cannibalism, that video, they are eating each other's faces. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. And then cannibalism, I think, is just like a, I don't know. It is just like such a natural obsession in Western culture, like from the Greeks on because they kind of other it and make it scary. But I don't know. Like when you think about the New Testament, like Christianity and like that the central metaphor is just like, no, that's actually his body, dude. You're eating his body right now. And that's drinking his body right now. And that's drinking his blood. but like Dracula.

Like what is happening? That's not even a metaphor. That's actually what's happening. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I can't even talk about cannibalism because it's like I don't understand. There is just a deep, deep obsession that is constantly bleeding through and people are just like the Hannibal TV show, which was like incredibly critically acclaimed. They hired like one of the things they did was they hired a person who's like an acclaimed.

food photographer. And like the whole thing is him making these beautiful dishes, like culinary delights out of his victims and then feeding them to FBI agents. Like that's, it's like food porn. But it's people. It's people. And they're just like, yeah, hell yeah. People loved that shit.

People literally ate it up. I mean, the thing too with Canada, I think the reason also just to zoom out historically, right, is like the whole thing. of cannibalism. That was like an accusation colonizers levied against indigenous people to dehumanize them. And that word comes from fucking Christopher Columbus. Right. Like, oh, does it? Yeah. That's that for those first instances come of his depiction of the Caribbean, like the Caribes. Yep. And turn into cannibalis. And that's where that whole term comes from. So also like, you think of colonization as a form of cannibalization. You're eating human beings. You're destroying their

way of living to give you to sustain you in some way. I think it's just a, it just all kind of fits together. I think that's probably why. They recognize that it's metaphorically about them. Yeah. There's that carmic, like so many of the fears of the Western world are just sort of these carmic fears that they have from their own histories. So it's like, it's also, I think one of the reasons, and I know that I'm probably like

terrifying listeners. But yeah, like I don't, like it's all meat. We're all meat. You know what I mean? And even from like an indigenous perspective, it's like, we turn into the thing. that other things eat. You know what I mean? Like to me,

it's all just this. Obviously, I don't think we should go around eating people. But I also think that the obsession with it is very misplaced in a way that it's like, well, what are we actually upset about? Like,

what are we actually talking about? You know, because there is the thing of like, if Kim and I are on a mountain and she's about to die and it'll sustain me, of course I'm going to eat her. And I would be furious

if she does. Didn't eat me. Is she still alive? Or you're going to knock? It's like, if she's still alive, we'd have a conversation about it. Yeah. She's not going to make it. I'd be like, so I think that's time for us to have the conversation. We're like, I'm looking a lot better than you are. Sure. You know, like, I don't know. And your leg kind of fell off back there. And their leg already fell off. And I know we're only on day two. But I'm just, I'm just a little. I'm just a little. I know. Yeah. Just yeah. I know the power just went out on. It's a small world. I'm just saying we don't know how long we'll be here. Yeah. But yeah, I think that's a really good point, Miles,

that it is the, like, the Western world recognizing that in a deep carmic sense, all of our values are cannibalistic. Exactly. And then on a superficial level, we have othered the act of cannibalism in a way to make it scary.

And so we just, this kind of fear and, you know, recognition of what the fuck is actually wrong with us on some level that we understand just is going to keep churning back on us and coming up over and over and over again. Especially you think about in this country too. We let our young die. We eat our young, you know, with our inaction. Yeah, that's so true.

It just exists. We don't protect people. Yeah. It's all predatory. And so I think it's just a really just encapsulates a lot of the things that people sort of feel. And can't quite maybe put their finger. Yeah, it's the whole thing about like pro life with an asterisk. It's like I'm pro life when it comes to abortion, but like nothing else.

And I'm like, yeah, it's it doesn't. The second they're born, I don't give a fuck. Yeah. So, yeah. And you brought up such a good point about like the, that it is, there's always an underpinning of racism. You know, there's always, uh, an underpinning of hypocrisy in terms of religion. Like it's, yeah.

So it's just like, if we want to have. have a talk about cannibalism. Let's have an honest talk about cannibalism. Let's go back to 1492. Yeah. Let's actually talk about it. When the phrase was invented. Yeah. And why? Well, Kim and Kett, this has been such a pleasure having you on to talk Hannibal, the cannibal.

Yeah, we love being here. Where can people find you, follow you, hear you, all that good stuff? Oh my gosh. You can find our podcast. It's Kim and Kett, stay alive. Maybe anywhere you listen to podcasts. and you can follow us on all the Sochmeads at KKSAM podcast. Sash.

Yeah, we also have a Patreon if you guys can't get enough of us on the apps. You can also join our Patreon. We're currently watching Widows Bay in our Maysodes right now. So we do a live review of Widows Bay currently. So yeah, check us out.

I love Wadows Bay. I'm obsessed. Yeah. So good. Yeah. My favorite show. All right. we're going to take another quick break and we're going to come back and I will do the notebook dump.

Notebook dump. All right. That was our episode. Thank you to Kim and Kett for staying alive to appear on that episode. I hate to spoil their show, which has a cliffhanger right there in the title, Kim and Kett. Stay alive. Elypsies maybe. But yeah, they were alive during that episode and a complete delight, as always.

This is the No No No notebook dump We did not have time to get into all of the terrible sequels And one great and beloved TV show That Hannibal Lecter has appeared in The TV show I am not overly familiar with I will say that it really leaned in on the cannibal front They hired the art director and food stylist For Epicure magazine as I think I mentioned

in the episode to just really make sure that the cannibal dishes made people's mouths water. Janice Poon is the name of the food stylist, another case of nomadic determinism in that she has spoon. Janice Spoon, Janice Spoon, right in the middle of her name. On the movie sequels, I will say, maybe the greatest testament. to the iconography of the character of Hannibal Lecter is the sheer number of terrible sequels that he's withstood and remained our most iconic serial killer. You know, anyone can be popular after being the focus of a blockbuster that sweeps the big five at the Oscars.

But it takes a truly iconic diva to star in the movie. Hannibal, like to be the titular star to star in a Brett Ratner movie, to get his own, just bafflingly misguided, Batman Begins called Hannibal Rising, just movie after movie that tirelessly and enthusiastically sucked shit year after year, decade after decade, the hottest of garbage, and he still gets voted top movie villain of all time over Darth Vader. a few words on the bad sequels. Hannibal ends with him

cutting open Ray Leota skull and feeding his brain to him while he's still awake, also to Clarice. And yeah, I guess people were just like still got it, man. In the book, Clarice likes eating the brains so much. They start traveling the world,

having an affair that nobody wants to imagine and eating people. And people were just, people did not like that, but we still fuck with Hannibal Lecter. I was not fully aware of Hannibal Rising, but apparently Dino DeLorentis essentially blackmailed Thomas Harris into writing Hannibal Rising or just, like, did, used a pretty underhanded negotiation strategy when he was just like, that's fine if you don't want to write it. I'll have somebody else write it and it'll be bad, which ended up being bad.

anyway, so jokes on him. Oh, also that negotiation strategy. He apparently did the same thing with Anthony Hopkins on one of the sequels, he said, no, it's fine if you don't want to do it. We'll open in Brazil where Hannibal Lecter has just had plastic surgery, and

suddenly he just looks a whole lot like Kevin Spacey. So he was just, I guess one of the ways he negotiated was like threatening to ruin the character and the franchise. And people are like, fucking fine. I mean, he did end up paying Anthony Hopkins $20 million to do some of the sequels.

So it's not exactly all that negotiation strategy. But Hannibal Rising is not just like similar to Batman begins in that it's an origin story. He trains to be a samurai for some reason. And there's also a moment when he tries on a samurai mask that looks like his famous, you know, don't eat the senator's face mask from. Silence of the Lambs. Like, they play this scene like he's Indiana Jones trying on his fedora, even though that just like makes no sense.

That wasn't, that wasn't his personal mask they were putting on him for his meeting with the senator. Love the suit. But yeah, they just desecrated the character repeatedly and we're just like, can't put you down because, um, the high of Silence of the Lambs is so high. And I think because he is so load-bearing. He taps into these two crazy, powerful underground veins of just, you know, serial killer obsession, like giving us a smart Sherlock Holmes.

Serial killer is fucking irresistible. And then cannibalism, uh, which man, we, we fuck heavy with cannibalism, uh, which, yeah. So on the subject of our serial killer obsession, the fact that serial killing was kind of like a viral craze was something I think I'd discovered. probably old hat to true crime people, but those numbers blew my mind, like how rare it was in the 40s and then how huge it was, how like common it was in the 70s back to, again, those numbers, I think, yeah, so this is from that New Yorker article on Caroline Fraser's book Murderland, but it said 55 serial killers in 1940, 72 in 1950, 250, 217 in 1960, 217 in 1960,

By 1970, there are 605, by 1980, 768 throughout the 90s, 669 in the 2000s, down to 371, from 2010 to 2020, 117. So back down to like 1940s and 50s levels, but it followed lead exposure on a 20-year time lag. But basically, people were massively exposed to lead exactly 20 years before that massive rise. and then they made it illegal. The article goes on to say it's probably one of many factors, including DNA evidence, which I find somewhat compelling, you know, and the corresponding drop in hitchhiking

and, like, people locking their windows. But DNA evidence seems kind of inevitably significant to me, like, for so long, being a serial killer meant tangling with cops who, you know, were not the, who just, like, kept getting their head stuck buckets and accidentally shooting each other. And then suddenly they have a technology that, at least in the media, is treated like, you know, the precogs and minority report, just a magic.

This guy did it. Ball that rolls down out of a black box. But, yeah, the New Yorker piece. It's by Gideon Lewis Krauss. Also, just a direct quote that gets at the thoroughness of Hannibal Lecter's, you know, pervasiveness in popular culture. That profile is complimenting the Fraser book in terms of it's not focusing on how brilliant Ted Bundy was by saying,

she declines to indulge the allure of Bundy's Lecter-like cunning, emphasizing instead the innocent lives he cut short and the raft of mistakes made by law enforcement officers in their ham-handed pursuit. But yeah, Lector gives us the serial killer we want, and then it gives us the police. least we want or at least wanted and I think still believed in for for a long time. And I honestly think the current true crime moment is kind is at least partially to do with people waking up to the fact that we are kind of out here on our own with regards to like police not being good at their job. Um, specifically women are on their own. You know, after decades of, you know,

80s and 90s movies with cops who will ultimately save the day. you know, people who pay attention to the reality of crime and the justice system finally, you know, got people of more and more people to come to terms of the fact that, you know, they're not coming to help you. They're more likely to actually be the serial killer. And we have to study other crimes and come up with rules like, you know, never go to a second location and stay out of the woods. And adults don't ask kids for help and lock your fucking windows. Shout out to my favorite murder for some of those. But yeah, and just more on the on the cops being bad. I mentioned the story about Domr's parole officer not having time to check on him. His arrest was basically just comparing this with Clarice. The cops who get Jeffrey Dahmer basically get him by complete accident and like against their will almost. They're like forced to catch him. So Dahmer was apprehended after some cops noticed that one of his intended victims was running down the street in

handcuffs after they had managed to escape. And before that, a 14-year-old boy who ended up being one of his victims had managed to escape. And the police found him drugged and, like, half-naked. And Dahmer just walked up and was like, oh, sorry, that's my boyfriend. And the police were like, all right, man, and just handed him over. Like, while, you know, a lot of people were like, what? What are you doing?

Two of the officers involved in that and, you know, previous incidents with Dahmer were. fired after Dahmer was caught and all of that came to light. But then they were, quote, later reinstated on appeal and each received around $55,000 in backpack. And then a decade after that, one of them was even elected president of Milwaukee's police union. So that's just, again, it's not quite clearly starling out here. And serial killers are not quite Hannibal Lecter. There's been studies. You know, people are fascinated. So they've done studies to be like, what is that? actual intelligence of serial killers. Are they actually these hyper-intelligent people? And, you know, they found it to be slightly above average or exactly at average, meaning it's exactly not that. It's not that they are brilliant and they can be explained by their brilliance. And then on the subject of cannibalism, look, I think I get why it's interesting to people.

It's one of the, like, foundational cultural taboos. that make human civilization possible, along with the incest taboo, which, according to the porn hub, year-end search trends, also very interesting to people. So make sense. There are these taboos that we're told should not be looked at, which makes people just want to look and think about those things more. But yeah, I think I mentioned in the episode, the cannibalism metaphor in Catholicism, the idea of like eating, consuming the body and blood of Jesus, which, I'm always surprised by how important that is to a lot of people, like, how seriously they take it. They're like, no, that's actually his body.

We're not being symbolic. We are cannibals. But I'm not going to just pick on Catholicism. Like, it's lots of different religions and cult. Like, Greek mythology has some major cannibalism stories. Like, Zeus's dad swallowed five of his kids right after they were born. There's always people just like feeding humans to each other in Greek mythology and lots of foundational mythologies. And then I think there's some of the stuff that Miles was talking about, about our culture and why cannibalism would specifically appeal to us metaphorically.

But yeah, it is the foundational idea of a bunch of the most important myths in the history of human culture. and the people who make popular culture are onto this in 2022. I remember this being a big story that there was like suddenly like Timothy Shalmay's big movie after, you know, he became a star. Bones and All was a cannibalism movie, the menu, the Dahmer monster Netflix series, Yellow Jackets on Showtime, like all of these were hitting within a few years. Anyways, all of which I think makes the concept of Dahmer being, a cannibal serial killer too good for, you know, the culture at the time and the police

and Dahmer himself to resist, as I mentioned, I think, in the episode, the Milwaukee police chief initially told the press that the evidence is not consistent with cannibalism, which tells you two things, one that there obviously wasn't evidence, like he didn't have a person's head with a piece cut out of it, like, uh, is it cake episode under a cake bell? And also that, the media was asking about the cannibalism thing before evidence was suggesting that that's what was going on here. It was like a media inward pressure process, not a information outward process. And the details have just always suggested to me that he was keeping their dead bodies around

for sexual purposes. He has said that he couldn't get aroused while they were awake. So he started by drugging them. And then his explanation, which is truly horrifying, but he was like, I kept the truly beautiful ones. So I could keep their bodies essentially. But that is gross. And there's not an entire weird, like sociological and religious obsession with people

having sex with dead bodies. So, you know, my assumption is they gave the people what they wanted. Like, the police started asking more questions. about that and he could tell that they wanted a certain answer and that this was going to be the less embarrassing, more sensationalistic direction to take things, he being Dahmer. And, you know, they delivered People Magazine. The headline they wanted, which People Magazine at the time literally described his crime as a real life silence of the lambs.

I don't know why I'm so adamant about this point. It doesn't change how horrifying any of the Dahmer stuff is. But I just think it's, I guess it's interesting either way, right? It's interesting to me because it's an example of a thing going from pop culture to our perception of reality, like the movie writing itself into reality. But I guess the other option would be that the movie, like there was a cannibal serial killer operating silently in Milwaukee. And the movies predicted it, like Silence of the Lamb was made. and came out six months before there was any evidence that that was happening. Either way, interesting for zeitgeist purposes,

I just happen to believe it's the first option. But that's enough for our Dommer notebook dump. Thanks again to Kim and Kett. And to Miles, as always, to Brian the editor for putting it all together. And to J.M. McNabb, who I feel like really knocked it out of the park with the research on this episode. next week we have a deep dive into the spooky character. People are most likely to believe in.

It's our annual I Want to Believe in Spooky Shit episode with Jack Wagner and one of our great spooky icons. Until then, back with more Zykeyes. We'll be back this afternoon to tell you what's trending. And we will talk to you then. Bye. The Daily Zykeyes is executive produced by Catherine Law. Co-produced by Victor Wright. Co-written by J.M. McNabb.

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