The Daily Zeitgeist - Fright-con #42 - Ghosts: Is It Swayze Or Slimer?

Episode Date: October 19, 2026

In this edition of ‘The Iconograph’, Jack and Miles are joined by journalist/filmmaker/podcaster Jack Wagner (of Otherworld) to talk about the icon most likely to be in the room with you right now: Ghosts! They’ll explore ghost lore, ghosts in popular culture, their favorite depictions of the afterlife and much more!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Youanu. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart.

And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body.

But no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and I said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent. Backhanded a bow! Listen to the Devil's Quarry Season 2 in the Bone Valley Feed on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. I'm Max Chaffkin. We are both journalists at Bloomberg Business Week. And our podcast, Everybody's Business, finds the meaning behind the numbers. Things like, why is ice cream so expensive right now? Is Polly Market the new stock market? And Max, will we ever retire? Because decoding the money, power, and influence the moves the world is everybody's business.

Listen to everybody's business on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On recent episodes of The Questlove Show, I chatted with Jojo about her music and Wallow 267 about his story, everything in between. Don't invite me to karaoke. I'm going to make it weird. Someone's going to try to sing, leave get out, or too little, too late, or baby it's you. Oh, no. And I'm going to be like, okay, cool. Check out my conversation with Jojo, Wallo 267, and more on The Questlove Show.

Listen to the Questlove show on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Peace. Bloomberg's Big Take podcast has everything you need to know about the most expensive midterms in U.S. history, like the money being spent to control the Senate. Everyone has been waiting to see how Trump will spend his big war just. He was sitting on nearly half a billion dollars. How candidates are rewriting their party's playbooks. and how big business is throwing its money into the ring. There is obviously the AI super packs, which are two sides there,

so they're spending sometimes on different sides of races, sometimes on the same side of races. Listen to the big take on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, the internet, and welcome to this spinoff episode of their daily zeitgeis, which we call the iconograph. Instead of looking at the zeitgeist through current events on Monday mornings, we look at the Zykeyes through the powerful pop cultural deities,

that are our icons. Or now that it's October, our fright cons. It's spooky season. It's TDZ House of Horror episodes. And so far we've covered Dracula, Hannibal Lecter, and for our third Fright Con of October, we're going with the number one most believed in paranormal character. According to the 2018 Chapman University Survey of American Fear,

58% of Americans believe in today's icon, which is more than have voted for any president in the last 42 years. Today, we ask the question, are we indeed not afraid of no ghosts? I would say we are not, we are actually not afraid of ghosts. We are afraid of no ghosts. We want there to be ghosts. We're afraid that there's not ghosts. We need there to be ghosts. Yeah, we need there to be ghosts.

I'm thrilled to be joined by my co-host. He once sucked Dan Aykroyd off so hard it made his eyes cross. It's mild gray! I really thought you were about to say that for me. I really thought that was my intro and I was like, wow, they got real comfortable. Wow.

They're real comfortable of me. Yeah, I had a pretty off-color Halloween costume a few years ago, Jack's reference. But yes, great to be here. A thing that I honestly, I'm always constantly grappling with this subject of ghosts. Oh, yeah. I come from a pretty spooky ghost culture.

I straddle, like, black people like ghosts, Japanese people like ghosts. Oh, yeah. But I hate them. I don't like them. They freak me out. And I think what they do is they give me a little bit to think about what it is about ghosts that kind of rubs me the wrong way

or why I sort of don't want them to be real at times. But anyway, I'm glad we're doing this. This is a good exercise. Let me ask you that. Do black people like ghosts? I know, I mean, in my family, there has been ghost talk. I have a lot of ghost talk things. Like, they've always talked about haunted shit. Ghosts, T-O-K.

Ghost talk. They're on TikTok. Yeah, yeah. On TikTok. But I mean, I think just a lot of stuff, too, I think there's just a lot of spirituality that intersects with it, that kind of can be supernatural. It also depends on the flavor of Christian you can be because sometimes my grandmother would not like that because he's like, There's only one is the Holy Spirit kind of thing. Exactly. Yeah, I think my grandma's a little bit like that too.

Yeah, but there was also times when it would be like, you're like, there was this, when I was a little girl in Chicago, there was this ghost. And I'm like, okay, so which one is it? Like, is there only one ghost? Or are you constantly saying ghosts? They have encounters, but they don't, yeah, we don't want to admit it. Right. I feel like listening to our guests' podcast this week, I was like, oh yeah, I did have like some weird shit happen when I was a kid.

that's really interesting. Let's get to in our third seat, uh, director, journalist, and the host of the Other World podcast, which I've been on a tear listening to past week. And,

uh, it's like every time, every year, he comes on in October for our, uh, spooky season. And I get pulled into a hole of just nonstop, other world episodes.

Uh, he's a real life ghost examiner. And yet he's never once found a, haunting to be an old wealthy guy in a latex mask trying to sink the property value of an abandoned amusement park. Please welcome back to the show. It's Jack Wagner! It's an honor to be back, folks.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great to have. And it's good timing, too, because I don't know if you listen to the most recent episode, but it's, uh, I would say the most, uh, the most ghost evidence that I've encountered, at least on my show. Which one is?

Really? It is called Long's Peak. for anyone who wants to check it out. I was too deep in the archive and I missed it. You should listen to it. It is kind of crazy. Well, I could get into it further.

Yeah, we can get into it. Investigating this stuff is not super easy or cut and dry. I rarely get my hopes up. This is one where I usually try to look into things the best I can, but I rarely get my hopes up when it comes to, you know,

somebody seeing something and being able to find out like, oh, that was a real person that you saw and this is who it was. But that was the case with this episode and we were able to further confirm it later on. Like straight up conjuring shit. Where you're like, if you actually look at these photographs.

Yeah, yeah. But that almost never happens and it took me by surprise. I still don't know what to make of it. That being said, I feel weird accusing people of being a ghost. So I've kind of like kept the guy's name out of it just because that feels so weird to me.

Like, if I were, if I die tragically, the idea of, like, some paranormal show putting me on blast, especially if I'm not the ghost. Wow, that's interesting. I've never, you know, never really thought about that of, like, do you, if it's a private citizen, even though they're deceased, do you do them the honor of, like, not putting their name.

Yeah, you blur their name out. Yeah, that feels great. Yeah. They haven't signed anything. I mean, that's amazing. You're actually somehow more ethical than, like, most murder podcast hosts. No.

So, I mean, yeah, we'll go on to be started. You know, I don't even, I don't want to out this person as a ghost. If they're not, it just feels really not my place. And like, that's such an interesting thing to kind of have to contend with. Well, it's similar to me, too, because it's just like, I think about, I'm not to get too serious right off, right off the rip, even though I'm not a very serious person, but like, with the murder podcast, same with, like, the ghost stuff. Imagine something horrible happened to your loved one.

Sure. And then there's, he's like. dumbass YouTube shows being made about it. Right, right. The people move in after you are like, speculating crazy shit. Like, I mean, just like the whole economy of a true crime, like trial-based podcast. Like, sure. Just imagining like your, your wife gets horribly murdered and then like the country randomly decides you did it.

Right. For no reason. That must suck. Yeah. Not for no reason. It usually is the husband, but yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a bad example there.

Statistically speaking. But yeah, same with the ghost. Like, I don't know. I just feel like we should respect the dead. When I feel like actually that in a way, it becomes a more flippant, sensationalized version of a thing when you're like, and it's like this haunted place. Like, you know, people just jackass.

That's a really good impression of other world, by the way. It's a haunted place. I'm talking about YouTube, like YouTube people are like, oh yeah, there are. That is the whole genre. No way. boy goes to haunted place and is like, what was that? And then they like give like this like really studied like model look over there.

Yeah. Yeah. And trying to like talk to the, it's one of those things where it's like if you believe in ghosts, you should not be doing that. You're like being extremely rude to a murder victim who's stuck in this place for eternity. Yeah. That's you're harassing them if you believe in ghosts. And if you don't believe in ghosts, then you know, you're just an idiot.

Like what are you doing? You're a liar. Yeah. Right. Like, why are you there? For views. We've talked before about, like, aliens, and I've said that I want to believe, but I have, I have some things that I'm like, I don't understand how that happened, but I don't have, like, the thing that is like that. There it is.

Solved. And I think I'd lump ghosts in that category as well. Like, I would love to be presented with evidence of hauntings or just, like, any afterlife. I'll take something over nothing, you know? even though many ghosts seem to be acutely uncomfortable based on the noises they're making. But, you know, I'll also say, like, in terms of ghosts and the afterlife,

like I went to church every Sunday when I was a kid. And I have no clear idea of how the Catholic afterlife works. Like, I, you're Catholic. Yeah, yeah. And I know there's like- I'm more fascinated with theirs. Yeah. Yeah, there's like,

purgatory little thing where you go if you aren't great but aren't specifically evil. And you're supposed to be praying. Well, this might be more for Orthodox, but like people pray for the souls that are in purgatory. Yeah.

And I think some Orthodox denominations of Catholicism believe that you can like ask the souls in purgatory to help you and then like them helping you get those deeds give them points towards like getting into heaven eventually. Right. My point is I don't know. I don't know how it works. I don't know what gets you there. I don't know what gets you out. I do know like how I would end up in the ghost or the sixth sense afterlife. You know, like those are afterluck. Like the crispest, clearest image that I have of an afterlife is from ghost movies, I think. You know? No, I mean, I think for most people. Yeah. I will also say just going back to the Chapman survey thing of people just,

kind of believing in ghost, like most people, I guess, believing in ghosts and hauntings. Um, I was doing, I was going through the all time adjusted box office of like in the history of American films, like what movies have made the most money based on, you know, adjusted box office. So like number one for that is still, uh, gone with a wind because it like sold the most tickets ever of any movie. Um, but like when you're going down, I was looking for like ghost busters and sixth sense and like where they are on the list. But like as I was going down, I was realizing that there's like a bunch of huge blockbusters that have like just incidental ghost appearances.

Like Empire Strikes Back like all the Star Wars movies have ghosts. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's a good one. The Lion King has ghosts. Raiders of the Lost Ark has ghosts. Pirates of the Caribbean has ghosts. Passion of the Christ ends with the ghost.

One of the Holy Ghosts. Harry Potter has ghosts. Like movies that aren't explicitly ghost movies still just have ghosts. Like it's such an ancient plot device. Yeah. Like no other paranormal character could just show up in an otherwise like sci-fi movie or like children's cartoon. Like if Mufasa like spoke to his son from an alien spacecraft in the sky or like if Obi-1 was a vampire like that would not work at all. but we just kind of allow for ghosts.

Because it's so culturally universal, right? We all have to contend with death and thinking of the afterlife or what happens after, no matter where you are on the planet or religion or culture. So it's like an accepted kind of texture, I feel like, for all of us. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah, like what? Of course we're going to ask it.

What happens after that? Oh, yeah. It's a ghost. Cool. I think I would have assumed that aliens were more believed in than ghosts. Oh, no way. Ghosts have to be number one. Yeah, ghosts are number one with a bullet.

And it also, like, if you look at the Indiana Jones movies, it makes sense because in Raiders of the Lost Ark, it just ends. Like, it's a, you know, pretty secular movie. And then it ends with, like, ghosts coming out. And everyone's like, yep, that's the best one. That makes sense to me. But then Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, they were like, and now aliens come out. And people are like, the fuck.

Booh. This isn't an alien movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. I think if you speak to most people, and dig, like, you can find that they've had some sort of weird ghost adjacent experience, even if it's small. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Whether or not they believe it, like, I think most people would be like, well, there's probably some kind of explanation for that, but it was weird. Sure. Yeah, exactly. But it is extremely common. As you know, as you've shown. The other thing I would just say about, like, our kind of trying to map how people think

about ghosts using. our pop culture is like when you actually look at the movies that have done the best that are explicitly about ghosts, it's generally like I think people want them to be friendly or like they tend to be friendly, you know, like even the sixth sense, which like is, you know,

spooky when you first see the ghost because they have Beetlejuice ghost rules where you like still have whatever injury killed you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which seems fucked up. A little vibe. Yeah. You just like show up at someone's window with like half your head hanging off. But generally it's just people, you know,

ghost is another, like the Patrick Swazy ghost movie was a massive hit. And it's like scary idea at first. But, you know, they are just people who are like, or yeah, like dead people who are looking to like move through, you know?

Yes. I'm glad you guys did the research on this because I am no expert on subject. On the pop culture stuff? No, actually, I know a lot more on the pop culture stuff, but historically speaking, I guess I know a cursory amount, but it's interesting to hear this data that you've brought forward. And like, force ghosts are nice.

Mufasa ghost is nice. Raiders of the Lost Ark ghosts are not nice, but like they have just a very, they're like Ellen DeGeneres. You just can't look at them or they'll fucking melt your face off. That's their one rule. Yeah, they're like J-Lo. Yeah, yeah, sure. They're not super nice, but I don't know.

Or maybe they would have just melted the Nazis face off either way. I think good, yeah. Ghosts or like communication with some sort of supernatural force is such a part of the hero's journey and like the mythological framework of, you know, the plots that kind of like all stories are now based on, you know, so I think that's why we see so much of it if I had to guess. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, I think so.

Like that, you know, it goes back to Ham. And like I later on I'll talk about you know there there are ghost stories like ghost encounters with like Pliny the elder and it sounds very similar to the things you the stories that you know your subjects tell on your show jack like you know a ghost who's like throwing things and you know doing things and is like in someone's house. So it seems like that's another thing. We did an episode about the gray alien, you know, the iconic gray alien face and like how we got there. And one of the things we found is like it kind of kicked off in the 70s or, you know, it kicked off at a certain point and then began like, you can like see it kind of being designed by the collective unconsciousness and like everything starts going in that direction.

But there for a long time, like the design of alien sightings were really stupid. like didn't, didn't look like that. They were like, hairy, or like one was like a giant light switch with legs, you know? And so the fact that ghosts have like always kind of had this similar description from people who encounter them is, is interesting to me. It is interesting and cross-cultural and also, I'm totally blanking on the name of this tribe, but there have been uncontacted tribes who were eventually contacted like within the last century that had very strong beliefs in ghosts, which is interesting to me that it's like not just culture spreading across. It's like self-generating. Yeah, it's like trying to tap into something that I think we just, we feel innately as part of being alive, like the sensation

of being alive is already kind of surreal if you bother to like examine that, like to exist. And then to then go on, it's like ghosts are also kind of like a way for us to make I think also it's a way for us to make sense of what can happen, what energies we leave behind. If we are sensitive to something that's slightly more intangible than sort of what's empirically known. So all of those things, I think, they all connect with something just so basic or so essential to our lived experience. But yeah, like, it's like kind of just found this very simple way to kind of manifest itself and like this sort of paranormal afterlife. Let's put our cards on the table, boys. Have you seen or experienced a ghost?

So I have, when I was a kid, I found this thing of gold coins in, like, the dirt outside of this. So I remembered this from listening to one of your shows where, like, somebody had like kind of a spirit guide, imaginary friend when they were exploring this creek area by their house. and I did always have like this memory of this experience where I found these like gold coins and then like heard this like drum that was like deep in the ocean or deep in the forest that like it was like this weird uncanny experience and I just like chose not to go into the forest

and it was like at this time I lived so I had a creek going by my house and that was this creek that like went into the forest and there was like that. the house right next to our house was a guy who had like killed himself a couple years before we moved in and like there was all this lore about like the last person to see him alive and then like I was telling that story to my friend while we were playing basketball on the side of our uh like of my house and like the light started flickering like whenever we would talk about it and it like fucking I've never run inside like faster so those are two experiences that I had when I was young that were like kind of adjacent um that I've always that like hearing it from

anyone else I'd be like okay that's not that's not evidence of a haunting um but it did have kind of this weird feeling to me at the time that like no this this seems weird this seems like something is coming from uh elsewhere yeah uh not personally I mean like the closest was one time when I was in Japan. At night, I was walking with my cousins and, like, a, like, a family friend. We were, like, on our way to get, like, ice cream at a convenience store or something and, like, fireworks. So, like, you know, I was like a little kid with, like, my older cousins. And so the thing, the reason I'm dubious, because I'm not sure if they were fucking with me. But I also know them, they weren't the kind of cousins that would fuck with me. Like, I had cousins that would,

I knew, like, they were going to tease the shit out of me because that's just, that was, like, sort of, you know, how it was. But these weren't like, these are like my very like, nurturing, like, older cousins who like, you know, really saw me as like a kid they looked out for. And I remember walking down the, like, just the street, like just in like this neighborhood and like a suburb of Tokyo. And they kept saying like, like they kept looking behind them and saying they thought someone was like following us. But there really wasn't. And they couldn't quite like every time we looked, there was no one there. But there was just like this energy that we all just kind of felt and we had to just keep like we just started running home.

And it wasn't like a thing that again didn't feel truly like we, anyone saw something or just it was the feeling. But as a kid, I could just tap into something that felt off about it. Something was off. Yeah. Yeah. And so that was the closest. So I wouldn't say like that that felt like something that can be generated by a bunch of kids being like, oh shit, you know, and I'm like five years old. But then also my family though, too, like my uncle and my aunt have had similar things where like a presence has like held them down. And they were unable to move. And in one instance, like, my step cousin, like, warned my uncle about, like, not going on a trip and he didn't listen.

And the thing held him down on his trip. Oh, weird. And he went to the hospital because he thought he was having some kind of medical thing. And they did a full body scan, neurological everything, and, like, nothing was wrong. Huh. And I'm like, for me, I go, ah, it's probably psychosomatic or whatever. But there's also, there's something, too, like, when I listen to, like, the episodes of your show too where I also do believe that like for me I almost see the paranormal

stuff as almost being like when lightning strikes it's like you actually need a collection of the right things for this moment of like paranormal expression to occur in front of you yeah and I mean sleep paralysis that is one of those things where like there is this explanation for that but there are it's one of those things that like entry level skeptic, easy to write off, because you're like, oh, it's sleep paralysis. But then when you kind of dig further into that and look at some very strange cases through history, it becomes a little more muddy. And then you kind of come back and you're like, maybe this is normal.

Yeah, like, and there's a, that is one of those things where there's so many records of it. Like there are, because there's, there's common sightings people have in sleep paralysis. there's, of course, the Hatman. A lot of people see. That's kind of like a more recent thing, but I think people have seen versions of them throughout history. But then the old hag is the other one, like this old woman.

Yeah. And that one is very old. Nightmare describes this woman. Like, she was called the nightmare. So when you would have a nightmare, it's referring to that. This is very old. But basically,

almost all cultures across the world have some version of that. seeing this woman and being held down, which I think is so strange. There's all of these records, anthropological records of Woodsman in Canada, who were like, I think it was in the 1800s, early 1800s,

who came over from Sweden. Sorry, I'm, this is just, I'm going off the dome, but these European immigrants to Canada that were there for logging, and it was happening to all of them,

and they were coming into, like, the infirmary at the log camp. That's why these records exist. and they were reporting of getting hag, they're calling it. Wow. And it was happening to all of them. Encountering that same figure. Yeah.

And then after the Vietnam War, we led in all of these Hmong refugees from Laos and Cambodia, because the Hmong people were like helping the United States during the war. We gave them refugee status. Anyway, when they arrived, they started dying mysteriously in their sleep, like hundreds of them. And when people would interview the family members or people who survived these close calls in their sleep,

they would say that this was because of this spirit called Da Cho, I believe was the name. And it basically like the same thing as the old hag, like this female spirit that comes at night. But because they're in America in a way from like their original village, they weren't able to. to do these rituals that would normally protect themselves from the spirit. And that's what they were saying was happening. But these people, I believe it was like 125 people died from this. And that went on to inspire a lot of different movies. There was like a big article about this.

And to me, this is one of those things where like it was investigated. There wasn't a, I didn't think there was a satisfying explanation. Granted, I'm not a doctor, but it was one of those things where they didn't find the nightmare on the, cat scan. Right. Well, they, yeah, they, these people were dying of, um, like basically like a heart attack.

Right. Something close to it. And then they called it like unexplained nocturnal death phenomena or some shit like that. Yeah. Unexpected nocturnal death syndrome. Yes, yes, yes. Where, where like that's the explanation.

Um, I think that's so strange, you know, it's like, like where you just get something like an all encompassing term, but you don't really even know why that happens. And it just allows you to just, like put it away.

It allows you to be like, yeah, we had doctors look at this. It's a thing that happens and just make it clinical and dry and like under the lights of the hospital. Why did these people suddenly die at night? It's because it has suddenly died at night syndrome. Exactly. All right, dude.

Let's just stop. I think that like happens a lot of your show is like people will say I didn't tell anyone because like before, if someone told me that story, like I even feel self-conscious about like talking about that. I actually have a thing that happened

more recently that I like, I'm just not talking about because like I don't talk about my shit on this show. Yeah, yeah. Like I, I would have thought that person had like mental health issues or something if they told me the story that I had happened to me. That relationship between hauntings and like mental like pathologies

it's in a lot of movies first of all. It's kind of the central theme of The Shining. According to Kubrick, he's like, no, it's just what if ghosts drove you crazy is what the shining is about. But I think everyone's like had that thought when you go back through history and see like religious miracles and witch burnings and ghost sightings. It's like what? Well, some of those people were probably hungry to the point of hallucination or like accidentally tripping on ergot or like mentally ill and they just didn't know what mental illness is.

But listening to the stories on your show, you kind of like force a further question of like, what if what we describe as mental illness is actually just our way of dismissing people or experiences that we don't want to deal with or don't want to be real? You know what I'm saying? Because they'll like fuck up our day. It could be a mix of both sometimes too. Sure. Or we think we've have something figured out, but there might be an element of it that we don't

quite understand. Yeah. And yeah, a lot of stuff through history, there is some sort of explanation for it. I think a statistic, this is about something else, but a statistic I just saw is, I think it was like a cardinal in Mexico City or something. Somebody in the Catholic Church said that one in 10,000 cases of supposed exorcisms are valid. So like only one in 10,000. The rest are cases of mental illness, which is a very small percentage. I thought that was surprising coming from a Catholic.

priest. But I find that interesting and it's like okay so most pretty much all of the time people think there's a demon or possession it's mental illness or some other explanation but even just like that tiny tiny fraction of a percent being real it's very unsettling. And it's so small that you could just as easily write the whole thing off because

so small you might not even know when it is real. Right. think there's like what the subtleties are between people who see like more benevolent kind ghosts versus like the freaky demon type ghosts because like in your show

it's so interesting like where there is like you know that ghost box episode where you know the the woman like her performer father-in-law was like speaking directly through this ghost box thing and like connecting her and that felt more of like a you know you're talking to a loved

one or the what was the one with the tree house, who were the kid in San Diego, who had like a ghost homie that he, that was died in him. It was like an imaginary friend, but like more, yeah,

real and like, but very benevolent. And like there was just these, these spirits that it used to be a hunting lodge, their house. And like there were just these like spirits who would like come in and look in on them. And everybody seemed pretty chill,

other than they would like open all the cabinets every once in a while. Yeah. So it's like I'm always curious, like, because I feel like there, each manifestation also kind of, I think speaks to sort of a vision of the afterlife that kind of rests with the person experiencing or just, or the way it maybe expresses itself. Like on one side you see like, I understand how a plantation could be spooky. Yeah. Because a lot of dark should be feel like there's a carmic debt there that's waiting to just ooze out somehow into any dimension possible. But then these other ones that are more about feel like wisdom, like attained wisdom. from an ancestor or something that just comes through in the form of like this nice person who's like,

oh, don't eat those berries. Let's be careful over here as we like frolic. It's just interesting to see. I guess that's why I'm like, to me, it feels like these paranormal moments really happen just like in these very specific ways based on kind of the context and sort of, you know, how we're choosing to see the afterlife. Here, let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we, yeah, I want to just like kind of do a ghost survey of, like all the ghosts that you've encountered, like what's the breakdown of like nice versus not nice, urban versus rural,

like what they look like and all that. Urban versus agrarian. Yeah. We'll be right back. You've heard the chaos. Now you can see it. Hello. My gosh.

Watch all your favorite podcasts from start to finish. Right inside the free IHare radio app. Get the blood going up. Catch every laugh and eye roll on shows like the Tom Green Farmcast and part of. the bus now with full video we're building a ramp for Tony Hawk it's the same hosts and the same chemistry

with all the hilarious moments you've been missing right on your screen Cheers! Open the free IHard Radio app Search video podcasts and tap watch Lisa, we should tell them about our new show Oh my God Lexi We have a new podcast, it's called Don't Lie to Me I'm Lexi Wanoe we're two best friends

22 years apart but so close at heart And I'm Lisa Di Giulio The old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anyone you fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business.

And I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight to fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I don't really care. The WNBA playoffs are here, and while the games will be spread across seven

different channels and streaming services, you only need one podcast to keep up to date on all the action. Good Game with Sarah Spain is the only daily podcast for all your WNBA needs. Be the smartest fan at the sports bar by learning all the W's stories, stakes, stats, and stars, and hear from top players and coaches about their pregame routines, the pressure of playoff basketball, and the moments that define legacies. Can we actually compete for a championship? And I think the answer is yes. You know, the best part of all stuff is is parents have.

come up to me. Thank you. You helped my relationship with my daughter so much. It goes a lot further than you would think. Every time you underestimate a Yukon player comes at your own peril. You know, when you talk about women's sports, it's like Prego spaghetti sauce. It's in there. You know it. It's in there. You name it. It's in there. Want to know what's really going on in the WNBA? We got you. Listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more than a century, Miss America sold the country a fantasy. Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go.

But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping. They said goodbye to swimsuits. Now, hello to lawsuits. I'm Bridget Armstrong. Last season, we took you inside the world of America's next top model. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions. The Miss America pageant.

I never received scholarship money to pay for my student loans. He looks and he goes, you don't look like you suffered an eating disorder. It's great, but looks too ethnic. It's a story the Miss America organization really doesn't want us to tell. An exploitation of our Miss America's is treated by the Miss America organization

as an attack on Miss America itself. Listen to the curse of Miss America on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or Word. wherever you get your podcast. Every case has a story. Every victim has a voice, but will it be heard? I'm Nancy Grace on Crime Stories. We go beyond headlines to examine evidence, challenge the story we're fed,

and pursue justice for victims and their families. Please join us at Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you find your podcasts. Hope you join us. I'll see you there, friend. And we're back. So yeah, you've talked to, you've probably heard more stories

from seemingly sane people who have encountered ghosts and hauntings than anyone I'm aware of. So I feel like on this episode where we're looking at the icon, the diva that is ghosts, we should probably talk about, you know, what,

just like take a survey from your experience of like what the breakdown is because, yeah, like movies, are actually more of a even split than I would have thought between like mean ghost versus nice ghosts when you like kind of take a look back even movies like ghost busters have you know fun ghosts like slimer and stuff like that so but so like in your experience first of all have have you encountered people who've had encounters with slimer uh but second of all like

what would you say that breakdown is with nice versus hostile what would you say that breakdown is that I'm trying to think of like an actual breakdown of that but here's a thing is that part of the reason I I don't delineate between like the various paranormal characters and categories on the show is because I'm not sure what is what and like I personally think the lines could be blurry sometimes and I think often if multiple people look at the same story they might have different explanations for both for the same story rather with like ghosts you mentioned the ghost box like that guy was in medium. When I hear stories like that, I wonder, like, my instinct is that he's contacting something on, like, a completely different plane, whereas I think a ghost is something that exists here on our physical plane, you know? Like, they're trapped in a place almost like on loop, you know? Yeah. That story just really quickly for people who haven't listened is you, you interviewed somebody who was like a professional ghost skeptic essentially. And she quit the industry. at one point and people were wondering why

and you finally like had the conversation about the event that made her quit and it was like encountering this guy who again like would have it would have been the sort of person I would just dismiss as like somebody who like you know goes around to ghost conventions and like has this box. I think Jack described every photo of him

as having some kind of smoky, hazy battle drum. He was really cool. He was like bro I'm always in the fucking in the mist. No, that was an episode where it was like intentionally diving into the world of the paranormal that I typically avoid or like other world was created as an antidote too. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, that guy was a hilarious character.

And then, but he had this device and like talk to it and it would bring back like voices or answers from some other dimension. It was like, I mean, you'll see those on TikTok where it's like basically a radio scanner. Yeah. And like,

I mean, I think those are kind of stupid where it's just like, it's just like zipping between channels. and people are finding you could kind of like trick yourself in the hearing things they're interpreting it.

Those are just funny. But this was like a more advanced version of it, at least the way the lady described it, it was like working in a much more precise and different way than those. But I think like honestly most of the time

when I think of a ghost and the ones I encounter on my podcast, most of them are mischievous. at the worst. And like borderline benevolent or neutral. I think the scary stuff, at least me,

this is just me speaking, like when it gets to stuff that is like frightening, like actively trying to harm somebody, I think of that as more like, I guess demonic, you know, not necessarily saying that I, like,

believe in demons, but like I don't, I don't think of that as like a human being. the soul of a human being, right? Right. It doesn't seem, and it's never, in those stories, it's never seemed like a person, right? It's more of a thing doing it.

Does that make sense? Yeah, that's the thing. That's also what the conjuring universe. Yeah. Like the evil ghosts, the conjuring movies are the number one that's like purely evil ghost movies in terms of box office. and like they yeah yeah i guess you know we do have one coming out soon that you're joking before the show uh it's a it's a it's a ghost that had chains um really yeah and he i don't want to spoil it but like

he chokes a lady um that i interviewed and it was like this brief really frightening encounter damn so that was it's interesting i don't want to spoil this episode she sees another one later she sees another one later that wasn't him but to me it was almost like she was tapping in and witnessing an event that happened and seeing both sides of it

like seeing from two different perspectives which is it gets into another thing where it's like it all depends on how you even think of ghosts right right right right like and sometimes I think maybe are we just tapping in and being able to pick up on something

that's like on loop you know like experience and event. That's just always there. Right. Because I think that was interesting in the Ghostbox episode, even the subject of your episode was talking about how like,

even in thinking about the paranormal, there's already a discussion about like quantum mechanics and time. And if like, if these spirits are even experiencing a form of linear time that human, like the living don't. So it's,

again, it's so interesting to just even think of like what all of the sort of ramifications are. But I think, yeah, to your point, it's hard to know sort of like what the intent is or if like if all ghosts are good or if there's one way to define it because I think the one thing I just keep coming back to over and over is that it's usually a like a collection of these things come together and somehow a person has access to a sensation that they previously did not. And I think about that like my dad, you know, my grandmother passed away like, you know, a few

years ago, but like in, he wasn't really, like, the grief, the grieving process wasn't really happening until, like, in this one very specific moment where, like, he felt her say something to him, like, at this event, and he just broke down on the spot. But he said it's very surreal. That where I'm also, like, part of me is like, well, it felt like you had a lot of pent-up emotion or these other things. But I also feel like it was a collection of a lot of, like, he was searching for something psycho emotionally and then being kind of open to receiving something whether that was to allow himself to grieve in a way that he didn't know but it but to him it was very much connected to this moment where like he was like sort of visited and i think that's extremely

common yeah and like that's where i'm like that's where i'm like i've really and to me like i'm like that is believable because i do i do feel that there is something energetically it's probably not the thing of like casper or whatever but we do have these moments where we're clearly, our senses are adapting to something not quite, you know, what we're used to. And that's like got to be like the number one submission we get is people who are sending things from like immediately after a loved one died and believing that they're contacted through signs or something like that.

Oftentimes, and it's very complicated for me because I'm like, you feel really bad. A lot of times I'll read a story like, I don't know if that was paranormal, but I'm glad that you found peace. Exactly, sure, sure. Like, your confirmation bias really helped out. You know, because, like, I've seen that with my own loved ones when somebody has passed, right? Right. But then occasionally, it's, occasionally there are really, really big ones.

We have another story coming up. I'll spoil this a little bit just as a treat for your audience. I don't know when this will come out, but this one was really cool. this guy whose dad died showed up like full form apparition while he was awake and held out a blue drink

and had him and he's like, drink this, you're gonna feel better and gives him this blue drink. Wait, does somebody give a drink in Star Wars? No,

but they drink blue milk. Yeah, they drink blue milk. Yeah. Oh, oh, I thought you meant like a ghost. There was a ghost scene

that I forgot. Oh, thank God. No, no. This guy's just describing a scene. He had big pointy ears and he's like, drink this, you will. It's crazy. And then he gave him a piggyback ride through the swamp. No, but his dad gives him this like electric blue drink and was like, drink this.

And he drinks it. And he does feel better. It's a really trippy story. I love this one. It'll eventually come out. But yeah, and it literally did help him grieve. He's not sure if it was the drink or being able to talk to his dad again. but um like occasionally you'll get one that's like a big standout normally it's not that extreme

and the other it's just very common for people going through grief to have like some connection with the loved one that they've just lost sure yeah yeah i i know a common thing is like receiving like a communication through dreams which i i don't write off i actually think it's kind of cool yeah and uh from like immediately after death and um i mean i could go on and on with that well i will ask i mean because you have said that like you kind of came into this podcast sort of wanting to believe, but it sounds like your description of how the process worked for you is like you, each one you're like hoping that this is going to be the one that proves to you or, you know, not necessarily hoping, but like interested to see if it's going to be like, where are you

and your kind of overall belief of like, you know, what's real? And like have you seen and heard things that have made you believe or what, where are you at? I think I've gone post belief where it's just like it's not even a belief or disbelief anymore. I've just like, I encounter this so often. I don't know if the

pendulum even swings anymore. Does that make sense? This most recent episode like, it's more proof than I've ever had for anything. Like, I watch a lot of Law and Order classic and it's enough evidence that we could like

probably take it to court and find somebody guilty in if the in the court of one if the district attorney is is on point at least you know they would at least take it to trial

but um I'm so used to not getting that that I sometimes like you know feel silly even trying and then when we finally got it

it's almost like I'm surprised at my lack of reaction I feel like I it hasn't quite sunk in with me does that make sense you know like encountering something that should really alter my views. But I think there's almost like something inside of me that's like, surely there's something

I'm missing. Right. Even though I've gone through many steps of that where I'm like, ah, but this, you know, and then I check and it's true, you know. And what about this? I've tried ruling a few things out, but I don't know, it's really interesting. So I think at a certain point you just get like callistofer. Not necessarily in a bad way, but you kind of have to to do this every single day.

Right. But I guess on some level, also, because it's so frequently, like, well, this is clearly part of the human experience also. Yes. Like, it's not that like, every person you're talking to is like, all right, let's see if this person, like, how off they are. It's like, well, okay, a lot of people are experiencing these things. And I think just because of that, I think that's what interests me, right?

Is that because I can't deny the sensations that these people are experiencing on some level and then people want to explain away how that happens. But because of that, I think that's what keeps me open to this idea because I also feel that like I've, I've experienced that same thing too. Like you've had a family member pass and then like these things happen. Whether or not that's coincidence, it just feels like there's such an intensity of energy left over from a person who you've had a relationship with while they're alive that that energy, it has some other quality to it. And I think it maybe just manifests in these other ways. I actually, I'm probably a lot more of a believer than I realize.

I'm also extremely skeptical, but when I encounter somebody that is like, and this is not so often these days, but like somebody who's just like, I don't believe in anything. It's all not real 100%. I'm like, you're an idiot. Like, you're a complete idiot. Like, how could you possibly believe that? You know, I'm not saying that like what we think of an alien or a ghost or whatever is literally true exactly how we think of it. Right, but if you look at all of the things that people experience right now that we consider supernatural paranormal, like some of this will probably be figured out one day.

There's definitely things we don't understand yet, you know. And like that stat you mentioned early on, 58% believe in ghosts. I actually haven't seen that one, but I did see recently 60% of people who have had a paranormal experience, which is more than the percent of people who have broken a bone under the age of 65, which I thought was really significant. Like, more people have had a paranormal experience than have broken a bone. Yeah. Under the age of 65, hilarious asterisk, because old people don't be breaking bones.

After that, people fall all the time. Their bones are made a stirofoam. I'm like, why the 65? Like, oh, yeah, because after a certain age, it's just they're breaking bones. Jack, do you look at it as ghost or no ghost or just, My favorite game show, by the way. Hey, ghost or no ghost? Or are you giving it up to the vast ignorance of the collective human intelligence?

I think I believe in ghosts. There's something, you know? Yeah. I guess that's the thing. It's like, yeah, I acknowledge we don't know enough about so many things that, for that reason alone, I can't just be unequivocal and be like, did it guys? It's all bullshit. Yeah. I'm just using ghost as the term, but like, there is something.

And I think the ones that trip me out the most is when I talk to people who, like, vividly see a crystal clear apparition. And what's interesting to me is that, like, when I talk to somebody who describes the clothing of a different era and, like, the shock of seeing the quality and construction of certain garments, right? Like, that always puts me out where somebody will... It confuses them at first.

Like, they'll see, like, leather shoes and the stitching. It's like, at first they know something's wrong with these shoes, but then later on, upon reflection, they're like, oh, those are like, I was seeing handmade leather shoes. Right. The quality. Yeah.

I was seeing, I was seeing quality for the first time. You should have seen the hem. It didn't fall apart after one wash. No, literally. And everybody reports like heavy, like heavy linen garments, like heavy pants,

like the weave on things being really thick. And I always, and you could tell, you know, you could usually tell when somebody's making something up. It's very easy for me to tell. But when some, you could tell when somebody's really experienced something, the fascination with things like that,

I always like hearing, you know, somebody who's really baffled by seeing something like that. And it's usually so sudden and quick, which is interesting to me. Right. There are a couple times in episodes of your show where the people who witnessed something were like, I do not have time for this right now.

Oh, 100%. Like, I got to go to work. Like, I have to go back to work or something. Like literally one of them was, like a person who worked at a movie theater who was like, I, like, sorry, man, I just like don't have time. I feel like, this is a really busy night of work, which I think is interested, like, to your point, Miles, about how it's like these various things that need to all come together for there to be a moment. I, I do feel like in America, like, you know, where everything is so

objective based and like we're, you know, just trying to not starve and like have our job. and like keep food on the on the table that like that might be a thing that makes us like not good at noticing things and in the moment you know what I mean and you mentioned noticing and you also mentioned urban versus rural ghosts I don't get a lot of stories from cities um or at least not from New York and part of that might be just we have like a huge California audience but something I think about a lot is like you know I've lived in big cities before I mean LA is very quiet. It's different.

But in New York, I feel like you could live in New York and have a completely haunted apartment and never notice. Yeah. Because like, if you heard somebody speak your name, you'd be like,

oh, I have some crazy neighbor talking and like, you know. Yeah. The walls are so thin in this place. Yeah, you would never, you would never notice,

like, like the stuff that people would normally view as a haunting. But, you know, if you're in an isolated cabin where there's no other possible explanations and stuff is happening, it's completely different. So I always wonder, like, how many places in New York are extremely haunted and people just

don't even notice this is happening around them. Yeah. I mean, my explanation for why movies tend to, like, happen in, like, scary movies tend to happen in rural or suburban, you know, locations as opposed to urban, as I feel like a lot of the bad shit that has been done in the country has been in rural settings. And so there's like this, you know, system of like guilt and, you know, fear that's all, like, tied together. And so, you know, that's why Jason stalks Camp Crystal Lake. And, like, it doesn't make sense for Jason to be in Manhattan for more than one movie.

Jason goes to Manhattan. Yeah, yeah. But I do also wonder. I do wonder if there, if that's also part of, like, you know, you. you know, people noticing and people being like, well, this is a place where it's spooky because this is like a place where like evil has been done like a lot in this country. And so you're like in this, it's just because it's kind of coded in our unconscious as like a place of that evil has been done, then you're like more awake to that sort of thing,

whether it's actually happening or not. Like that feels like the sort of thing that would make it more likely. And then yeah, the quiet probably helps. I have heard people say like, okay, if goes surreal, like why aren't hospitals just full of them since that's where everybody dies?

They are. Yeah, I feel like I've heard people talk about. Yeah. Yeah, if you talk to nurses, like, all of them have crazy stories. But it's such a fast-paced environment that like usually they move on really quickly. Or same thing, as I was mentioning with the city, like, there's usually

room for some sort of explanation. You know, you hear a weird noise, you hear a voice, or like, something moves. You're like, oh, could have been like any number of people who, um, are here happening. But yeah, it's so many. Constantly beeps and hums and like machines that sound like they're breathing. So how are you going to notice that the room is breathing? Of course, though, but like all the other thing is I would say somebody like that, it's like, well, ghosts aren't don't necessarily exist like where they died, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's. And I also don't necessarily think of ghosts as, um, like a, a spirit, like, roaming around necessarily. Like I said, it could be like an echo or it could just be

us able to detect something that happened from before. Yeah. I have no idea. But, um, yeah, that's, a lot of the explanations that exist. to write ghosts and paranormal haunting, or the supernatural in general, don't really make much sense when you picket them.

Like, I've probably brought up infrasound before when I've been on the podcast. That's something you've seen tossed around a lot to explain haunted houses infrasound, like a sound wave or like machine noise resonating at a certain frequency that could make the brain hallucinate, right?

right um doesn't make any sense like yeah it gives you a feeling of dread yeah i can i can understand that like it's like oh this is like a spooky feeling um but i don't think it's going to make your brain see shit like yeah yeah Brian the editor points out that the myth busters tried to make themselves see stuff with infrasounda it didn't work out so i i often like a thought experiment i do with with things like that it's like okay we live in the most capitalist society in the world in history if that existed

somebody would be able to replicate it and charging money to make you see ghosts like if infrasound could make you see a ghost if anything could make you see a ghost it would be able to be replicated and somebody would be using it to make money

and I think I use that for like a lot of the paranormal explanations people people have you know the other thing I I see is like black mold or like mold that could do a lot of crazy stuff but it's certainly not an explanation for like everything that I encounter on my show um what are the other explanations for ghosts

did you encounter any in your research yeah I mean like ergot uh you know I think like mental illness is like probably the one that you hear them that that's the one that I feel like is just everybody's default right is just like well like they're going through something are you under a lot of stress right now, you know, stuff like that. And it's just... And I will say stress can definitely make you more prone to thinking something. Small things are happening around you. I notice that myself, like, when I'm stressed, I see things out of the corner of my eye.

Or everybody's had that thing where, like, the laundry sitting on your chair. Like, everybody has, like, the laundry chair in their room or, like, the shit where you put stuff that you don't want to put away. Like, out of the corner of your eye, you see somebody like, the clopop. file. What looks like a person standing there and then you realize it's a lamp with a jacket on that. Yeah, our brain is designed to like find faces and like patterns and things. So like I do.

Here, let's take one more break. We'll come back. Yeah, absolutely. We'll close up. Canadian women are looking for more. More to themselves, their businesses, their elected leaders, and the world are out of them. And that's why we're thrilled to introduce the Honest Talk podcast. I'm Jennifer Stewart.

And I'm Catherine Clark. And in this podcast, we interview Canada's most inspiring. women. Entrepreneurs, artists, athletes, politicians, and newsmakers, all at different stages of their journey. So if you're looking to connect, then we hope you'll join us. Listen to the Honest Talk podcast on IHeartRadio or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show. Oh my God, Lexi. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi Youan. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions,

and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. I'm not going to get anyone fighting. That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business, and I've always got something to say. If men were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're going to talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little

We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are. Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me.

Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I don't really care. The WNBA playoffs are here, and while the games will be spread across seven different channels and streaming services, you only need one podcast to keep up to date on all the action. Good Game with Sarah Spain is the only daily podcast for all your WNBA needs. Be the smartest fan at

the sports bar by learning all the W's stories, stakes, stats, and stars, and hear from top players and coaches about their pregame routines, the pressure of playoff basketball, and the moments that define legacies. Can we actually compete for a championship? And I think the answer is yes. You know, the best part of all The kids have come up to me. Thank you. You helped my relationship with my daughter so much. It goes a lot further than you would think. Every time you underestimate a Yukon player comes at your own peril.

You know, when you talk about women's sports, it's like Prego spaghetti sauce. It's in there. You know it, it's in there. You name it. It's in there. Want to know what's really going on in the WNBA? We got you. Listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For more than a century, This America sold the country of fantasy. Well, are you ready, ladies? Okay, here we go. But over the past decade, the crown's been slipping. They said goodbye to swimsuits. Now, hello to lawsuits. I'm Bridget Armstrong.

Last season, we took you inside the world of America's next top model. Now I'm back with season two of this podcast, Curse of Miss America, investigating the rise, fall, and uncertain future of one of America's most iconic institutions. The Miss America pageant. I never received scholarship money to pay for my student loans. He looks at me and goes, you don't look like you suffered an eating disorder. It's great, but looks too ethnic.

It's a story the Miss America organization really doesn't want us to tell. An exploitation of our Miss America's is treated by the Miss America organization as an attack on Miss America itself. Listen to the curse of Miss America on the IHart Radio Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Every case has a story. Every victim has a voice, but will it be heard?

I'm Nancy Grace on Crime Stories. We go beyond headlines to examine evidence, challenge the story we're fed, and pursue justice for victims and their families. Please join us at Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you find. your podcasts. Hope you join us. I'll see you there, friend.

And we're back. We're back. And yeah, I do, because something that comes up in a couple of your episodes is this idea that people who are going through grief or, you know,

going through something very difficult, difficult emotions, you know, the, under the bayou story is about somebody who has just, like, had a, uh,

their significant other, like, try to kill them. and then they move out of that situation into this house and suddenly are experiencing all these hauntings. And that, yeah, I think that, like, ties into this idea of, like, rather than just using the, oh, they're going through something as a means to dismiss it, it's like, or that makes them able to.

And, like, Miles, I really liked what you were saying about, like, grief and being connected with a loved one. And like, it reminds me of like how the body start, like, during childbirth, the body can do like all these amazing things that would seem like science fiction in any other circumstance. But it's at this moment of like the craziest, like, part the beginning of life. And like I feel like the connection that we have to like people when they pass away is like another thing where if you're not actively experiencing it and witnessing it, it like doesn't make sense. that you could have that. But it's like these very specific circumstances and conditions that people can be going through that make them, that open them up to these experiences.

Yeah. And I think of it a little bit like there is the pattern. It's not always the case, but, you know, people who are going through a lot or have gone through a lot that experience things. in those cases I kind of think of it as like everybody has a certain amount of life force you know or like your aura yeah right and like

there are times where you have a lot of it in your life and that aura might be like huge and beaming out of you when you're crushing it but then there's I think everybody has times where there's like nothing there and they have very low life force I think that's like maybe a time where you're like vulnerable

for bad things to happen or to witness the, the darker side of this. This is just like my anecdotal observations of based on stories. And obviously there are so many different sets of beliefs that exist similar to that. It's not like something I came up with. Amalgamation of a lot of existing beliefs. Yeah, this is like the foundational experience of humanity is like having a loved one who, or, you know, having the experience of someone who once had life.

there is no more life and it just like doesn't make sense, you know, and having to explain that. And that's why I, uh, am not personally scared. I thought when I started making this show, I was like, uh, like this, I feel like I'm inviting this into my life. Um, and that I would open myself up to like darkness or whatever. My grandma definitely thought that, but to me, I'm like, oh yeah, don't, don't mess around with that. Like, I don't let this stuff kind of like break my barrier. And I always try to like maintain, take, take care of myself and maintain like, I guess, like a strong life force, right?

Like that's, sounds kind of corny saying that, but, um, right? Right. And you're doing that with simple greens, right?

Exactly. SG1, whatever sponsors were during that ad break is how I do that. Yes, exactly. And it doesn't factor for you made me regular. But, and,

uh, for that reason, like, to an extent, I, like, genuinely don't believe, um,

the stuff can mess up, with me. I don't know if that's like corny, but like we moved into, we last year lived part time in a place that like all the neighbors said were haunted, was haunted. And I like literally laughed when they told me that. I'm like, that's not haunted. And I just kind of like stuck with that the entire time. And I'm like, I don't feel it. I don't think it's haunted. Apparently the people who lived there before us moved out because of the haunting and they had mediums come to get rid of the haunting. And the mediums left having not completed it because they got in like a blowout fight.

And it's funny, I was like, when the people would tell me about this, I was like, completely writing it off, just like, okay, like you guys are silly acting as if I'm not the host of a paranormal podcast. Right, right, right. My entire livelihood exists on this stuff. But for my personal life, it was a mix of like,

I think just brushing it away from my own sanity, but also genuinely believing that I can't harmed by it. I think that's like an important thing that everybody should remind themselves of or practice, right? I'm telling you all this. I'm giving you an answer to a question you did not ask, but...

How do you protect yourself from the ghost? RIP to everyone killed by the gods for their hubris, but I'm different and better. Maybe even better than the gods. I don't know. I think it is like... I guess we are started to talk about like people who are going through... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Going through stuff. And, like, that's people who often experience, like, scary stuff. It almost seems like that attracts negative entities to them. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. People experiencing grief. I mean, that's a lot of crazy Ouija board stuff.

Yeah, a lot of crazy. That's what we talked about the last time you were on was a lot of Ouija board stuff and how, like, this Parker Brothers game that, like, it is actually, like, you talk to people who are experienced in this. and they're like, do not fuck with me. It's like, completely insane. It's sold next to monopoly, and yet it's a thing that like people

who have experiences are just like, yeah, yeah, no, that's really like, do not fuck with that. No, I know. And I know the number one and number two, they would debate who is, which is which, but collectors of the boards and planchets in the world. So I know the top collectors of these things.

And both of them are like, yeah, not real. Like, these aren't real. Uh, this is just, uh, the, the, the idiomotor effect, like your hands, like, moving subtly, like subconsciously, everybody, which I think is so interesting anyway. Like, I think that's super interesting anyway, that, like, our unconscious can write out a sentence without us realizing it. Sure. Yeah. And like, maybe that's the case, maybe there's some of that, right? I'm open to that. I'm not going to say that's not the case, but I have encountered so many people who have, have had their lives ruined

after using this and stuff happening afterwards not related to the board that is the main thing. It's like, sure, go ahead and explain how the hands are moving and the way they are on the board. That isn't really the part that freaks me out. It's usually

like after somebody uses it that everything goes to shit. That's what freaks me out. I would never use one. That feels like the kind of thing my Lutheran school teacher should have played for us when we were, because we were scolded in Lutheran school about Ouija boards because that was against the Second Commandment. But I feel like that's the kind of thing. I feel like my teacher would have been like, and you know, it's not even about playing with it.

It's that once you do, you're opening yourself up for damnation. It's crazy. And also, the other reason I kind of just don't, I'm not satisfied with the explanation presented is like, sure. The average person isn't very creative. And some of the stuff reported, like, that I've encountered, like, that these entities are saying is, like, very complex and elaborate and, like, beyond what, like, a person could make up, right? Right.

And a lot of the, the stuff that freaks me out is that, like, oftentimes it's, for a while at somebody, uh, the board is, like, pretending to be the spirit of a loved one. and then we'll usually like start to act bizarre and like reveal itself to be tricking the person and like taunting them. That is so weird like posing as somebody's dead grandpa

and then not just like changing or getting stuff wrong but like slowly weeping at them. Yeah, it happens a lot and that really that really freaks me out. And also people who have asked the board things that even they don't know and like would go check

it's very strange to me and I guess that's where I land on a lot of stuff is most people aren't very creative so common explanation is like oh the person's just making it up or imagine damn they just wrote like one of the best horror stories of all right yeah literally

read like amateur novels go on Amazon AI slots by ruining this but otherwise I'd otherwise go on Amazon and like look at like one star review books and see the quality of story these people are coming up with right

most people aren't very creative so and their imaginations aren't that strong so that's the other thing that puzzles me is some of these things are so strange yeah it's um it's hard to completely write off

is there a movie ghost afterlife that resonates particularly with you like uh that scene like a ghost is after life by way of like,

you have to like do a training montage to be able to like move things. And, but I think they can kind of roam free. Although they have, like there's the subway ghost who is like obsessed with the subway because that's where he died. And so like there,

there's some of that. Beetlejuice, everybody's like stuck in specific locations and they are stuck with whatever killed them being like the injury that they had. Ghostbusters is like kind of all over the map. Well, I'll point out, this is an answer to the question, but, you know, the Ghost Brusters was actually based on the diaries of Dan Aykroyd's family.

He's like a fourth generation spiritualist. He's, huge into that shit, yeah. Yeah, he's, his whole family, that's like their entire thing. It just so happens, he became an actor and comedian. Oh, is that why he's, like, so into Crystal Skull vodka? Like, that's where the vodka is even, like, Crystal Skull, that, like, now makes sense. Yeah, yeah. That might just be bag chasing.

Um, I have no, I don't know about the thing, right? Because everyone like the woo-woo world loves the crystal skulls and things like that. So part of me was like, I wonder if it's like, it's just like every part of him is always kind of thinking about the supernatural. I, uh, I was actually supposed to interview him this month. But, um, yeah, his family is like full of so many like rules and like esoteric things that like it's kind of hard to keep straight. Um, and maybe that's the those are the spiritualists. And that's like a lot of what we think. think of in America comes from like the spiritualists in the 1800s that's like the Ouija board kind of comes from that like I think it was originally like the talking board

was the first version of that there's roots of different cultures using similar things even before that but a lot of like our modern version of ghosts come from the spiritualists I don't know any movie that I could think of

that I think accurately captures it. I haven't seen like the full Conjuring series or what's the insidious? That's like the Astral Projection movie, right? Right. I haven't seen Insidious. I haven't seen that in a long time. I just watched Conjuring for this episode.

And first of all, I was shocked by how conservative it is. And this might be a good place to close out because they're going into the explanation for the ghost in the house in the first conjuring movie and they're like, she's the sister of one of the Salem witches. So like in the universe, the people who burned the witches

were correct. Yeah, and that is funny. And like also Catholic church is correct. And so like, I think what I like about other world is that it makes room for people who aren't conservatives to like believe and like be interested in ghosts.

Whereas I think for so long, like the whole world of like paranormal and stuff like that was like, well, you're going to have to call, you're going to have to call your Catholic priest. Right. Or, you know what I mean?

Um, and so, uh, that, that, that is what I, like, it's like,

oh, people like me who are experiencing this and be, like, yeah, man, I'd usually be like, this is, uh,

crazy or like, I don't believe in this stuff. I believe in science. Uh, but then it happened to me, you know, um, so,

I'm trying to, think of good movie examples for you guys, but I feel like a lot of the movies don't get into like the lore of like how the ghosts work, you know? Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. It's just you're purely dealing with the scary side of it. It's accepted as is, yeah.

But yeah, I think if my personal beliefs, I feel like if I were to try to make sense of it, I feel like the world we're in is small in comparison to like the larger universe that they exist within, if that makes sense.

You know, it's not like necessarily they're momentarily coming into ours. It's that we're momentarily able to see into theirs. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. Yeah. There's more of them than us.

I mean, there's been more, there's more dead people than alive people. Yeah. So. Well, let's fact check that. I don't want to make that big of a claim. We don't know that for sure. But it sounds right. It sounds right.

All right. Well, I have a bunch of like pop culture stuff and like the history of the bedsheet ghost. but I'm going to see one of those. I would love to see a classic. See, that's a classic bed sheet. I would love to get a story submission of that is like a classic bed sheet ghost. Is there an explanation? Yeah, so it was burial shrouds, basically.

It started with people used to be buried in sheets and then the way to be like, I'm a dead person who's risen from the dead was to have. I got that sheet on. Yeah, yeah. Cool, ghost. Classic. I would love that. I would love to see.

I would love to get to. the email of somebody seeing that, I would love to see just like a skeleton, like walking a skeleton. Smoking a cigar. Yeah, like, like basically I would love people to see the real version of Halloween decorations.

Oh, one that I've wanted for a long time is somebody seeing a disembodied laughing jack-o-lantern, like a jack-o' chast me. Yeah, yeah. Imagine if that happened to you. We're talking about being embarrassed by a ghost. Imagine being chased by a,

laughing jackalander. Yeah, yeah. You definitely don't tell anybody about that. Yeah, you just don't. That might be happening to everyone and nobody's telling anybody about that shit. Talking about if we had

the technology to replicate some of this, like, that's what I would end up doing. Figuring out how to like project a laughing jackalanturn in a convincing way to mess with people. They would never tell anybody about it. That's yeah.

I think boomer, old, our boomer parents probably really good for that one. A Frankenstein would be good to see. just like the classic. Frankenstein's so funny to me as like a scary character and he just like kind of balks people on the head. He's just like, whoa.

I was just like an idiot. Exactly. I will, yeah, like I will say the one thing I never hear about is, um, anything vampire adjacent. Yeah.

I've never even gotten, I don't think I've gotten a single email. Sure. Anything close to it. Yeah. I think we just created that out of sheer horniness. Yeah. More than anything.

And I've heard so many weird things, like uncategorizable things. But yeah, never anything Dracula related. There might be a weird dog men. That's like a very common thing. The Michigan Dog Man, I have an episode about this, but like a lot of people who see like dog or wolf human hybrids, not necessarily like a person changing into one. But that's, that is something that I have like, I have enough that it's like two men. any, like, people are kind of sending them in. I'm like, man, we, we did an episode about this. Like, I don't know if we can do another for a while.

Right. I have a folder of dog man or, like, Wolfman stories, but it's very common, and I don't think it's silly. I've seen, or I've heard a lot of stories of people like seeing a huge wolf standing on its hind legs or running on its hind legs. It's really weird. Okay, two quick questions that tie into what I'll be talking about on the notebook dump, but do you, do people describe the ghosts as being transparent or like, you know, like kind of see-through? It's a range. It's a range. I'd say like the most common is people seeing like a static, almost like a TV static black outline of a person.

Yeah. Or a lot of times that happens where it's like, it's already dark and they see something darker than the darkness in the room and it's like TV static. That is very common. A lot of people refer to that as like shadow people. But I'd say that's the number one. And then there are some where it's like, they can make out most of the person, but not the face.

And then there are some that's like transparent. And then in rare cases, it's just like a straight up person. That's what I find the most interesting. And going back to the New York thing too. how often I mean, do that. So many people that you don't that you never talk to

and you just assume like, oh, that person's doing some weird shit. Like for me, I won't get into my own stories because they're not good, but like my mom lived in a house that was haunted. She experienced a lot of stuff.

I was there sometimes. This was when I was like a, in college, right? And she was dating somebody I didn't like, so I didn't like being there. but I experienced what I later learned was paranormal stuff, but at the time you don't know that it's paranormal. Like I would hear somebody in the kitchen at night,

every night making food, and later on learned that it was like a thing that happens in this house and everybody's so scared of it that nobody goes into the kitchen at night. There's a few other things, but it's like one of those... I have a reference point to understanding it because I have experienced that, where it's like, oh, when it happened, it wasn't spooky. It was really normal, and it happened all the time. And I would have never thought that it was paranormal whatsoever until later,

when I realized there wasn't an explanation for it and that nobody was in there. Same with people who see a full apparition. They just, at first, think, like, oh, my God, there's a fucking weird guy in my apartment. Right. And then, like, in the split second after, they're like, wait, why do his clothes look like that? And then usually the person will like disappear or they'll run out of the room.

That's when they realize something else had taken place. But at first they think it's an intruder, right? Because it's so clear and so similar to waking life. That is really interesting to me, right? Yeah. Like these things that

we could possibly have missed, you know? Right. one thing that last question is I feel like people usually see them walking on the ground like that they don't float as much as like ghosts and movies always float and when I was

looking into the history of like where that came from it's just this like one very popular special effect called Pepper's Ghost a lot of like what we know of ghosts is like from stage plays that's why like they used to put Hamlets

ghost dad not to be confused with the Bill Cosby one. Yeah. In like military regalia and people were like, well, who's that alive guy? And so then they put the like white sheet over his head and they were like, ah, it's the fuck it goes. But one of the ways, like, they had this kind of, it's the same technology that they used to like make Tupac come back and like do

the Coachella concert. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's really hard to project it exactly onto the same like level as the other actors who are on stage. And so that's where the ghost floating came from, which makes sense, like, when you hear all the ghost encounters, people are usually, like,

it was like walking along or, like, I heard footsteps and stuff like that. So, like, the floatingness, like, was just kind of a figment of the special effects that were used. Yeah, now that you mention it, I can't recall a story we've gotten of like a floating ghost.

They're usually standing or sitting somewhere and somewhere that makes sense for them to be. I mean there's obviously like exceptions to that but those usually aren't like ghosts that people are seeing. But yeah, usually when people are seeing

like a human ghost, it's standing, sitting, doing something that makes sense. Right. Freaky man. It's fun talking. about this. I, what's weird as I'm, I'm normally listening. I'm rarely talking about it. I know. Yeah. It's good to talk to you about it. Any other final things in your notebook? I'm happy to hear.

Not really anything that's like pertains to actual ghost experiences. A lot of young people had their sexual awakening to the Devon Siwa, Casper. But that probably does. It doesn't really tie into... I'm trying to remember this. It was like when Casper became a boy for momentarily in the live action... Yeah.

That is really funny. Yeah, everyone was like, God damn! Yeah. I haven't seen that movie in a long time. Shout out to Casper. Yeah. Shout out to Casper. Again, another friendly ghost.

We love a friendly ghost. Also, that's something you don't hear about ever. It's like a... A Casper-style cartoon ghost. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, just a blob. Did you find in your research the origin of that? Like the... Of the cartoon. Yeah, like the Ghostbusters,

the guy who's behind the No Smoking Sign and the Ghostbusters thing. Yeah. I think it's just... From the sheets, maybe. Like, one of the early ones was this 1937 Disney short in which Mickey and his pals are like ghost exterminators. And, like, they just did ghosts as like white blobs. and it's sort of evolved from there.

But that cartoon actually basically created the premise of Ghostbusters. It shows them as under a sign that says ghost exterminators, and they're like slackers, they're like sleeping on the job. And Goofy at one point says, I ain't a scared of no ghosts. So they basically stole the whole Ghostbusters from that short. It also ends with them with like white gooey stuff. all over them, but I think it might be also marshmallow goo.

Or ectoplasm, perhaps. That's right. You never know. I will say this also pertains to the sleep paralysis thing. We're talking to all these various depictions in media where all these things come from. I have noticed that, like, that doesn't seem to impact the stories that I receive. And I think I would be a lot more... The cartoon ghost?

Just like media in general. You know, I, and I, you know, most of my education, like, you know, I was like a film major, like TV criticism and stuff. Like, like, my brain works to like notice those patterns and I would immediately be clocking it in stories. Unless, of course, it was a missing scene from Star Wars involving a blue drink. But, you know, I rarely see, like, media influencing people's experiences. They normally exist, like, in a vacuum. So like the floating ghost and stuff like that I know there's a lot of evidence that exists Suppose it's evidence of like you know through history things changing people using that's like right off

experiences especially with UFOs But I don't see it too often in ghosts Or in people's actual experiences in general And I just think that's really interesting Yeah right Gives it a little more A little more credence to it when It's not a thing where it's like, yeah, and he had a smooth head and he sounded like a teenage boy.

And he was really nice and he had uncle ghosts that were really mean. And I don't really see like an uptick when like there's new movies or anything like that, you know. Right. It's like a haunted, everyone's suddenly talking about a haunted doll they have or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pliny the Elder reported a story where somebody had an old man with a long beard and rattling chains haunting his house in Athens. like during, yeah.

So like that, I mean, that feels, and then centuries later, there are accounts of like poltergeist, a ghost that causes physical disturbance such as loud noises or objects following or being thrown around was reported at a farmhouse in Germany in 856. So yeah, it's like basically the same shit all along.

I will, I'll leave you with this. Another thing that I think is really interesting is people who see a loved one as a ghost, not realizing they're a ghost, like right before they, or when they pass away, right? Like, somebody sees their grandpa in their kitchen, like, across town or in a different state that doesn't make any sense. And then they find out later that he died, like, 20 minutes before that.

That's, like, a common thing. And I find that to be really, really strange. Right. Damn, grandpa, why are you wearing all those chains? Very influenced by Michael Jackson's bad. Damn, really? We got a zoots suit on. What the fuck is that?

Jack Wagner, I feel like I could talk to you for three days about all this stuff. But where can people find you, follow you, hear more from you? Otherworld is the name of the show. Our Instagram is at Otherworld Pod. And you can find the show wherever you listen to your podcast, of course. Otherworld. It's a jumping, a man jumping through a void.

on the cover. Please check it out. Leave it a five-star review. Yeah, go check it out. Guaranteed to get like goosebumps. I got like goosebumps once an episode at least. It's a good show.

It's a lot better than hearing me talk. I could tell you that. We're saying before you've got on Jack that like, both Jack and I were like, I was like, dude, this is like the one show and I listen to it. Like where I regularly go, fuck. The fuck.

We tie it really hard. know the name that only her dad called her though. I mean, we, the amount of interviews we do that don't make it on, like, like, it's at least 10 to 1. Like, we do 10, at least 10 interviews for every episode that actually comes out. Maybe, might even be 20 to 1. I've never counted, but like, we do a lot. We do a lot.

Because we try to hold ourselves to a high standard. Right, right, right. People still complain no matter what. sure. But we try to make a good show. Yeah. Go check it out. All right.

Thanks for doing this. I will be right back with the notebook. Thank you guys for having me. All right. That was G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G. Thanks to Jack Wagner for joining. A little different than what we normally do on icon episodes or TDZ in general.

When Jack's on, I like to suspend the skepticism. I like to believe. I've said before, I want to believe in aliens. I also want to believe in ghosts, and sometimes I do. Never more than when I'm listening to Otherworld, I will say.

Between the two, because we have done an icon episode about gray aliens, and the more research I did on gray aliens and human encounters with aliens, the harder it was for me to believe this episode and mainlining episodes of other world had the opposite effect, perhaps predictably. Also, more in it for us. They're just being something beyond just this, whereas aliens, it's like, I guess we exist at the will of aliens that they could kill us anytime they want. But yeah, I mentioned that ghosts hadn't

evolved the same way. You can see like pop culture and the shared consciousness sort of circling and zooming in on the final design of the iconic aliens we have today. Like early alien sightings include little hairy teddy bears and a light switch with legs in one case. And it was kind of like guess and check and sort of natural selection that eventually got us to the best alien design, which is the one that when you close your eyes, And I say aliens, usually people are picturing the face of the gray.

Ghosts are sort of similar. Like, there are a few features of pop culture ghosts that you can see evolve, um, that actually influenced by special effects. Uh, so these days, ghosts are, uh, frequently depicted as see-through, translucent, but that actually didn't start until around the time of Dickens, one of the earliest examples of an explicitly, uh, transparent. I should have said, a ghost in fiction was Jacob Marley in a Christmas carol. Dickens wrote that his body was transparent, adding that Scrooge had often heard it said that Marley had no bowels,

but he had never believed it until now. So again, similar to Dracula, 19th century author, evoking poop at an important dramatic meeting. Obviously, I think he was more saying he had heard he didn't have guts. But it's funny how shit-tinged everything was back then, possibly because everything smelled shit-tinged, so it was just never far from their minds. But Dickens was, according to our research,

according to J.M.'s research, drawing on a convention that had only relatively recently been established due to new optical shows like Fantasma Goria Lantern shows, which projected luminous images. So that's where we first start seeing transparent ghosts. And then, as I mentioned at the end there, the idea that these kind of see-through ghosts would be floating off the ground was because of Pepper's ghost, which is a stage effect, where the ghost is projected onto a piece of glass that's in between the audience and the stage, but kind of invisible to them. They still use it at the haunted mansion. but it's really hard to make it look

like the thing being projected onto the glasses standing on the same floor as the actors standing on the stage. So they were just like, well, these ghosts of course float. I will just say in my brief survey of ghost sightings on Otherworld, they're rarely transparent and they're rarely floating. In fact, I was struck by how commonly people are referring

to the ghosts walking. one ghost sighting in beneath the bayou talks about the ghost kind of coming from behind them and taking big loping steps like that that make them be like well it's going to catch me because

those are some big steps which tangentially that's actually I remember hearing that be an explanation for why Usain Bolt was so much faster than other people is his legs were moving as fast as the other sprinters but

his, the length of his steps, his gate was covering like, you know, he was covering 100 meters and like three steps. All right, I wanted to talk about how ghost movie afterlife, like I talked in the episode, how they are kind of the clearest image I have in my mind of any afterlife. And so that made me want to go through the thought exercise of which ghost movie afterlives I would choose to be real if I had to choose. And I ended up leaning towards the Swayze movie Ghost

being my best case scenario. There are some things that a lot of these ghost movies tend to have in common. The ghost is usually stuck in some sort of in-between realm until they can resolve something from their life in Swayze ghost. That's the name of the movie, right?

Swayzy Ghost. he has to like catch the bad guys who murdered him and tell his wife he loved her or something. The subway ghost that we meet is stuck in the subway until he can admit that he jumped in front of the train instead of being pushed. I think he's like, no, I was pushed, not junk. That ghost terrifying, definitely one of the most terrifying ghosts in movies in my experience and in my opinion. and then you either get pulled down to hell by scary shadow demons or you get to go to heaven, which just seems bright. Seems like it's an early Apple commercial up there.

But I like this one because it's basically a video game that you get to like practice and perfect and like move up to the next level. And you can interact with people and like jump into their bodies and stuff once you learn like all the rules. but jumping into their bodies also makes you wasted for like 30 minutes so it's just like there's I like the clarity of the rules in the movie ghost

Beetlejuice there are a couple things I don't like about Beetle juice I think it's a similar like stuck in between trying to move on to the next thing but I don't like that you're stuck as a like there's a person who's like a flat Stanley style pancake person

because they just happen to die by like being run over by what looks to be a heavy, heavy machine. But, like, Elon Musk drowns and he's good. He just, like, has a good... Like, it just seems somewhat random. That seems to be the same with the Sixth Sense. Like, a lot of the ghosts are still displaying

the injury that killed them. So it's just, like, too much riding on the happenstance of, like, whatever happens to kill you. Also, I'd say Beetlejuice seems to involve too much real estate law. Like, Alec Baldwin and Gina Davis. die in like a river in town on that covered bridge. But then they kind of walk into their house and don't remember how they got there. And they're basically on eternal house arrest.

Another thing, by the way, that would favor Elon Musk and the wealthy, which I don't think. Doesn't seem fair. Doesn't seem quite fair to me that everyone's on house arrest. I like the roamability of the Swayze ghost afterlife. And also, you seem like you have a pretty good grader. of time. That's another thing. Like, Beetlejuice seems like sometimes they're like, oh my God,

a whole month has passed. And like things just, when you I think walk outside of the bounds of the house. You know, Field of Dreams, another one where they don't seem to realize that time has passed. Sixth Sense, obviously.

It seems like he doesn't realize time has passed and is missing big chunks of the past year. And when you skip big chunks of reality, you'd end up being kind of out of place, like, confused by what people are wearing, what they're saying, like, just seems confusing. Ghosts must hate Gen Z slang. Imagine if Bruce Willis's character had to talk to Haley Joel Osmet through a veil of just,

impenetrable Gen Z slang. That's actually something I meant to ask Jack about, literally, is like, I feel like ghosts have to be on average way, like. less progressive, like way more racist and regressive than the average person just around us. Like one of his episodes actually, that same one with the big step in ghost under the bayou is about a woman who moves into her grandpa's house in the south and, you know, she's queer and, you know, has parties with like, you know, young queer people. and the ghost is, like, attacking people at these parties,

so much so that she eventually moves out. And a few weeks later, her dad moves in. And he's like, yeah, I hear whispering and, like, doors closing and stuff, but the ghosts are actually pretty chill. So I don't know. I'm not here to say that that ghost is, you know, racist and anti-queer people.

Just interesting, ghost. Something about these parties full of young queer people. Very interesting. But knowing old people, that makes sense, right? Like, ghosts must be pound for pound, you know, the most problematic, sentient beings on the planet based on just being from past generations. All right, taking through other ghost movie afterlives that, you know, might challenge the Swayze ghost for the best ghost movie afterlife. Scrooge slash a Christmas Carol, I feel like they seem pretty miserable. They seem actually like miserable teachers who are,

just here to like impart a lesson, but they're also, there's like a heavy undercurrent of them being very unhappy that they fucked up their own chance at doing the thing they're teaching about, in this case, being alive. So, I mean, to varying degrees, right? Like, Marley does not seem to be a happy camper. I think the ghost of Christmas present is a little bit more of a good time. But, you know, I'd say this is not the worst, but definitely not as much fun as like afterlife as video game. And then I was thinking hard about the Ghostbusters afterlife. And I think the reason I don't fuck with the Ghostbusters afterlife is because of the Ghostbusters. Because it just feels way too easy to just be like minding your own business at a ghost party,

being a well-meaning, undead person who like died on the Titanic. The entire, you know, group of people who died on the Titanic wash up or sail up in the second Ghostbusters. And, you know, like, you could be totally fine. And the next thing you know, you're, like, dramatically sucked into, like, vacuum cleaner, ghost jail forever. A lot of dramatic sucking happening in the Ghostbusters universe, as I referenced in my intro to Miles. But, yeah, I do feel like ACAB does, in fact, include the Ghostbusters. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm sticking with the Swayzy Ghost as my favorite ghost afterlife.

Happy to hear Alts. one little piece of research that I didn't get to is that ghost, that was almost not Swayzey Gus, that was almost Bruce Willis ghost, as I've talked about before, Bruce Willis movies being my favorite genre of movies when I was like eight to 12 years old. But yeah, that movie was supposed to be a real couple, plays movie couple, Mr. and Mrs. Smith type situation with Bruce Willis and Demi Moore when they were kind of, the Hollywood it couple and he got the script and he was like yeah I don't get it ghost ghost can't fuck was it was basically his problem with it literally his quote is I just

didn't get it I said hey the guy's dead how you gonna have a romance uh didn't read the third act apparently it's romance via whoopey goldberg lesbian surrogacy uh they they have an answer to that question in the script Bruce but yeah and then the most successful movie Bruce Willis is in is a ghost romance, a guy who's been ghost divorced, basically. A few more things about some iconic ghosts that we didn't have time to get to. Maybe the most depraved ghost sighting in pop culture is in The Shining when we see a room. A guy is about to, you know, it appears to be, get blown by a man in a bear costume. But like, it just seemed, like, the vibe seems very strange, you know.

Happy to let them do what they're going to do. but like the guy sitting on the bed seems, I don't know. Anyways, I was not wrong to think the vibes were off in that room because in the book, I'll just read, this is from a screen rant article. In the book, the man dressed in a suit is actually Horace Derwent, who's the mysterious owner of the Overlook Hotel and the man in the costume, which is a dog in the book. He's named Roger, and he's a one-time lover of Horace Derwent.

Like there's a backstory where Horace instructed, Roger to attend one of the hotel balls in costume as a dog and behave like a dog for the other guests, which very rude. How rude. Anyways, maybe the most iconic ghost form in popular culture is the bed sheet ghost, which are, you know, everywhere from, it's the great pumpkin, Charlie Brown, the intro to Scooby-Doo, E.T. Trick-or-Treat scene. it's the official Lego ghost character appears to be a bed sheet ghost.

There's also legitimately creepy appearance as a bed sheet ghost. Michael Myers steals a bed sheet ghost costume from a boyfriend. He's just murdered and like wears it. Goes undercover as a bed sheet ghost at one point. In the conjuring a sheet that is like hanging on a drier line at one point blows off and reveals a human form. a very, very effective moment of, uh, scariness. Uh, so in terms of where it came from, uh, as I touched on briefly at the end, I was first introduced because of burial shrouds, uh, as mentioned.

And, uh, it's another example, uh, like with Dracula and Sherlock where these iconic characters get designed and redesigned, um, and being on stage, like being characters in stage plays really helps them lock in. what their sort of central iconic images, tread in the boards. When you have to project a ghost to the back of the room, there's something very simple and effective about a sheet. You know, a sheet with eye holes is tough to beat.

And it made sense to people at the time because of the burial shrouds. So I think when Hamlet first went up, Hamlet's dad was wearing armor. But it was eventually a, you know, they put a sheet over them. most famous ghost dad apologies to Bill Cosby. Actually, no apologies to Bill Cosby

here on this podcast. Maybe the most iconic sheet ghosts is the Pac-Man ghost who at one point do have their sheet removed. I did not realize this because I was not very good at Pac-Man, but if you get to like one of the higher levels of Pac-Man, the ghost characters, like, sheet gets pulled off and you see what they

look like underneath, and it kind of looks like a little pink penis with eyes on the top of it. You can look it up online. Maybe I'm wrong. That's kind of what it looks like to me. But as for whether belief and ghosts are connected to, you know, our desire for an afterlife and fading of religion, I will just say, I'm not the only one making that connection. Movies with ghosts are often banned by the Chinese government, and they tend to ask that their movies, present, if a movie is going to have a ghost, the movie has to, like, go back and explain that it wasn't really a ghost like Scooby-Doo style, because they want a sort of secular worldview in their movies. And even when a ghost sneaks through, like with Star Wars, I remember that being an

explanation for why the Star Wars movies don't resonate with Chinese audiences. Star Wars comparatively flops in China. And one theory for why is that they're allergic to Force Ghost. All right, that's plenty. That's going to do it for Ghosts. Thanks again to Jack Wagner for joining us, allowing us to believe in ghosts for a week each year. Thanks to Miles, as always, to J.M. McNabb for the research

and to Brian the editor for putting it all together. We are back next week with their most surprisingly powerful horror icon. On the surface, they seem like they shouldn't be scary at all. I can confidently say that when they appear in movies, I feel like I could beat them up. And yet, they are probably the number one ingredient to make your horror movie scary time and time again. Horror directors turn to them. It's a mystery. Why are they so scary?

And we're going to have one of the best possible people on to help us get to the bottom of it next week. our final horror icon with Jason Pargin. We will talk to you then, and a bunch of times before then. Bye! The Daily Zykeyes is executive produced by Catherine Law. Co-produced by Victor Wright. Co-written by J.M. McNabb. And edited and engineered by Brian Jeffries.

Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie to Me. I'm Lexi You Want You. We're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa DiGulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions, and at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

If anyone wanted to commit a murder, up here would be the greatest place in the world to hide the body. but no one will find it. He acted friendly. He talked friendly. He sounded friendly. They all knew that I did the scary boogie stuff, and I said, maybe she'll find out where this girl is. I saw him violent.

Backhanded her, pow! Listen to the Devil's Quarry Season 2 in the Bone Valley Feed on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. I'm Max Chafkin. We are both journalists at Bloomberg Business Week. And our podcast, Everybody's Business, finds the meaning behind the numbers.

Things like why is ice cream so expensive right now? Is Polly Market the new stock market? And Max, will we ever retire? Because decoding the money, power, and influence the moves the world is everybody's business. Listen to everybody's business on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On recent episodes of The Questlove Show, I chat with Joe. about her music and Wallo 267 about his story, everything in between.

Don't invite me to karaoke. I'm going to make it weird. Someone's going to try to sing, leave it out or too little too late, or baby it's you. Oh, no. And I'm going to be like, okay, cool.

Check out my conversation with Jojo, Walo 267, and more on the Questlove show. Listen to the Questlove show on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Peace. Bloomberg's Big Take podcast has everything you need to know. about the most expensive midterms in U.S. history, like the money being spent to control the Senate. Everyone has been waiting to see how Trump will spend his big war chest. He was sitting on nearly half a billion dollars.

How candidates are rewriting their party's playbooks and how big business is throwing its money into the ring. There's obviously the AI super PACs, which are two sides there, so they're spending sometimes on different sides of races, sometimes on the same side of races. Listen to the big take on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast. Guaranteed human.