The Daily Zeitgeist - Icon #25 - Jane Goodall: The Chimp Simp

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

In this edition of The Iconograph, Jack and Brandie Posey are joined by Katie Goldin to talk about the only person in recorded history to spend a significant amount of her life with chimps and and not have her face ripped off: Jane Goodall! They'll explore her upbringing, her magical powers, how she likes her bread toasted and much more!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to Deep Cover the Family Man. On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Rolling and recording. Rollin, rolling, rolling, rolling. It's really hard for me to not do that at every computer podcast. Yeah. And this is a bit of a, you're going to get punked because I told you it was about Jane Goodall, but it's about Fred Durst.

We're doing the Durst. I did you, Durstie. It's a Durst trap. It's a Durst. Do your durst. This is the second, this is the second icons episode that starts with some durst. Talking about it. Maybe the second in like, of the month.

Yeah, something like that. Definitely the second this year. Yeah. It was a ghost again. There's no icon that's not related to Fred Durst in some way. It's the Kevin Bacon of icons. It was the durst of times. That's right.

Yeah. All right. Unfortunately, we are going to have to keep that. Thank you, Brian. But here we go with the actual episode. About Fred Durst's grandmother. Hello, the internet, and welcome to this spin-off episode of Dirtyly Zekeist, which we're calling the iconograph.

Instead of looking at the zeitgeist through current events on Monday mornings, we are looking at the Zykeyes through the powerful, pop culture, deities that are our icons. We use them to create identity, to knock man down off his pedestal, man both in the species sense and in the one with the penises sense. We use them to discover the best excuse for drinking whiskey in the morning and to put a beating artistic heart back into the scientists.

That's right. This week, we're talking good old Jane Goodall. I'm joined by today's very special co-host, the host of Creature Feet. Actually, I think I got this backwards. Brandi, you're our co-host today, right? And Katie, you're our guest. Yeah, yeah. Sure. Whatever. We're all equals here. Yeah. And in God's eye. We're all equal. Under God's eye. I'm thrilled to be joined by today's very special guest co-host. host a stand-up comedian who's got a hilarious new special called Milk Job. You know her from Lady to Lady, the founder of the comedy record label, Burn This Records, about to do the dang warped tour. Oh, yeah. Brandy Posey! Hey, hey!

Feels good to be here. I'm going to find my inner Miles and try to channel it for this episode. You're nailing it. Feels good to be here. It feels good to be here. Miles. I'm Miles. Look at me.

Look at me. I'm Miles. Look at me. Isn't it, mate? Having a pint. Arsenal. He's not British. He's not British.

Fuck. I always get that wrong. Randy, we're thrilled to be joined in our third seat by the host of creature feature, co-host of Secretly Incredibly fascinating. One of the writers on some more news. The perfect person to co-host an episode about Jane Goodall,

it's Katie Golda! Hello! Woo! Yes. Or as the chimpanzees say, ooh, uh, oh,

so you do speak chimpanzee. E, a, ooh, uh, ching, chang, walla, wala, wim,

bing bing bing, of course, yes. Yeah. That was fluent. That sounded actually like you're a native speaker. Yeah.

Are you, Are you guys good all heads? Are you down, down with the sickness for Jane Goodall? I'm down with the transmissible illnesses that they only later learned could happen between humans and primates, yes. She helps with research on that. I will so.

Like me a bit of good all. Yeah. A little, a little dab of good all. No, she was, she was great. She was,

she's a very, very fine lady. Imagine if I was like, I hate Jane Goodall. That would be crazy. And that would be great. That would be a great premise for like doing the crossfire thing like that where you're like, okay. And now your turn to explain why Jane Goodall sucks. A Jubilee video like one Jane Goodall stand versus Arumah haters.

All chimpanzees. Yeah, yeah. Let me get my tucker bow tie. I put it on and be like, Jane Goodall, actually. Nightmare. Who are these monkeys? Why? Yeah.

Was she sleeping with them? That is an accusation that was lobbed by one Gary Larson of the Far Side in one of his comics. I love that story. I love this story. Yeah, we will talk about that because she may, she seemed like she was a really good sport about it. For people who don't know Far Side, Gary Larson, it is a one-panel comic. that I grew up on, it really hit its stride in the early 90s.

I had, I think I would say, the article of clothing I had more than any other article of clothing was Farside T-shirts. T-shirts with Farside comics on them, because I was fashionable and cool. And he did a comic that implied that she was having an affair maybe with one of the apes.

and she, everyone's like, she's a really good sport, but as we'll get to, she also might have, like, almost had him killed. Oh, powerful woman. I know, exactly.

She's not, so some of the eye contests that we do, you know, is she like a Halloween costume? And you would know who she was in a Halloween costume, but it's not a Halloween costume. I see a lot. You know where I see,

a lot of her is in kindergarten career day. And I go to those every year and I tailgate them, even though my kids aren't in kindergarten anymore. No, but I do remember seeing a lot of people who were planning to be primatologists. That makes sense. Both kindergarten career days that I went to. And it's a career she invented.

Katie, you're a person of science. It's my understanding that the relationship, between science and animals before Jane Goodall was less empathetic and expansive and romantic and more we need something to put in our skinner boxes and they won't let us put people in them anymore. We can't we can't subject babies to experiments anymore because people are making us no longer experiment on babies. We can't torture babies.

Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, she really pioneered. the sort of, or at least she forced the scientific establishment in the West to accept the observational on the ground sort of type study where it's like she becomes kind of part of the environment. And there, because there's a lot of issues with laboratory type studies in, in terms of animals don't, you know, like you put an animal in a lab, it's not going to act. like it usually does. In fact, in any captivity, not even in a lab, but just in captivity,

that's where we got the whole alpha wolf problem. It's not real. It's not true. It's just because you had a bunch of wolves in captivity. And basically you had... What are we doing? What are we even doing here? So you had like Shawshank. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We had like Shawshank Redemption in Wolf Form and and we based our entire understanding of wolves on these prison wolves. And so with a chimpanzees, Jane, like she did, she started out not really, I'm sure you'll kind of get into this, but she, she started out not with like a formal primatology education. She was just like, what if I just, you know, I'm really interested in this. I kind of just want to sit with them and get them used to me and see if I can't observe some behaviors that we haven't seen before.

She was the goodwill hunting of primatology. She got in as a secretary, essentially, but was also an amazing genius of like animal behavior and had been like educating herself nonstop since the day she was one. Like she literally like from the very

start is just like yeah animals are my thing. At 10 years old she decided she was going to like go live with the apes in Africa and that wasn't a thing. Like hunters I guess went and lived with animals and like tried to kill them. But like nobody outside of like

Rudyard Kipling books did that. And instead of accepting that reality that, like, everybody else was living in, she just, like, changed the world until living with apes and studying them was a, was a thing because she was doing it. And by doing it was, like, one of the most famous scientists in the world.

It's awesome. She did, like, a reverse Kipling, or a reverse Mowgli kind of, right? She did kind of do a reverse Mowgli. She did an intentional Mowgli. Yeah, yeah. And it was weird because, like, a lot of, like, the songs of the bare necessities was just like some fat guy, like a man.

So, you know, not as cute. She got like a stuffed a monkey as a kid. And that was, that was basically what did it for her. She got a toy stuffed monkey. And she's like, okay, I'm going to be, I'm going to be a primatologist. And she didn't know what that was. But she just fell in love with the idea of monkeys and, like, stayed with it. When I was a kid, I got a stuffed chip mom.

which I called squirrely because I was stupid. But that's why I became a squirrelologist. Yes, that's why you're so excited. And embedded myself with squirrels. I had a donkey Kong stuffed donkey Kong as a five-year-old that I was romantically involved with as a five-year-old. So it was a weird thing about me. A situation ship with a donkey Kong.

Yeah, I did. You've seen his pecks? I mean, come on. Yeah, yeah. And then you got like a little tear under his arm and he started bleeding out. Oh, no. That's been a part of your sexuality for a long time, Jack. That is my kink.

You better be bleeding from that armpit. One other thing just before we like go beat by beat through her biography is she's a very nice change of pace in the sense that she's what one of the, only icons that we've covered who did not get what she wanted by like stealing from and manipulating everyone. She's just kind of like patient and opportunistic and persistent and she just sort of wore reality down

until it like let her do what she wanted. Good for her. Long game. She had like the same technique on people as she did on chimpanzees. It was like the same thing with people just like I think I'm going to do this and you know and she just like sat

and insinuated herself in the situation with the people until they're like I guess Jane is a primatologist now and then it's the same thing with the chimpanzees where oh my God this isn't saying Jane's a fucking primatologist wow she just sits with the chimpanzees there and the chimps are like wait

she's she's just a chimpanzee now I don't know I love that that kind of grounded confidence just to be like I you will move around me. This is where I belong. It's beautiful. Exactly. It is wild also. To Katie's point earlier about where science was beforehand

that they, it's just like you see all these smug scientists being like sweetheart. No, no, no, no, no. And like the thing that they're advocating for is like the best way to learn about these animals is to put them in a cage and like watch how

they freak out. And she's like, I don't know. I feel like if I just like go to where they are and let and get them to let me kick it, like I'll understand more about them. And it turns out she was right. But it's, it is wild like how this, even though there's like plenty of documentaries about her, this did feel like a movie that is begging for a biopic.

This life is like there's just so many. Like all the cartoonish dipshits from a biopic where you're like, all right, well, they had to like lay that on extra thick. They are all over the place. Yeah. Definitely. You got to love a bunch of scientists who are just like, no, torture has historically only given us the truth. The truth has only ever come from torture. Well, that chim can't play basketball.

That was their other main point that they kept coming back to. They really were like, they really like to harp on this idea that, you know, facts before feelings. You're too emotional. You're acting like these these chimpanzees have feelings. And the thing is that they do so that, you know, they're conscious beings. But it was like any, any kind of, it's, there's always been this kind of tension between overly personifying animals and under personifying them when in sort of science, like you definitely don't want to put your own human garbage on an animal because they don't necessarily have the same. kind of human psychology, but they also have minds.

So it's, I felt like there was a lot of sort of hypocritical, like early scientists would often have this thing of like, oh, well, we can't act like chimpanzees are human, but then they would still kind of project all of these like human ideas onto them rather than just observe them and try to understand them, like you said, like where they're at. Yeah. One of the things she discovers, spoiler alert, is that chimps use tools in the wild. And this was actually something that people had discovered before in chimps, like in large enclosures. But they were like, oh, they must have learned that from us.

Like, that's how just self-centered and like up their own asshole male scientists were up to this point. So, yeah, amazing. I do also just because it's one of my favorite facts of all. all time. Brian the editor just pointed out in the chat that in terms of where science was coming from, Darwin, pretty good scientist. All right. I'm going to give him that. He came up with a good theory. Did eat every animal he observed. He thought that was an important part of the process. He was like, yeah, but what's it taste like? Absolutely. Well, he had to establish that he was the fittest, right? Right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, if you've ever been on one of those old-timey ships where you get like salted pork

and some kind of biscuit that's made out of star dust. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus Christ, let me eat it. Turtle's starting to look pretty juicy. Yeah, yeah. All right. Her dad was Mortimer Herbert Morris Goodall,

an engineer who became a race car driver for Aston Martin in the early 1930s and was like, I think he had the record for 11 appearances at the 24-hour Le Mans Grand Prix. race. And her mom was like an author, a secretary, and just like a magic pixie dream mom.

She's just like so amazing. Her name is Van. Jane Goodall like brings a clump of earthworms to bed as a one year old. As a four year old, she disappears for five hours and nobody knows where she is and she comes

back and she's like, oh, I was watching a hen lay an egg. But in foreshadowing my future career, I needed to completely stay still for five hours so the hen didn't know I was there so that it would go through the process of letting the egg. And her mom in both cases was like, that's great. You fucking rule. Yeah. That's great. Just love you to have like a four-year-old just saying, Kauika, just learning. That's the Kauika. But I would say, there are moments throughout her story

where you're like, is this happening inside a children's book? And like just like from the start, her father was a race car driver. And her mom is like just amazing magic, magical person. And then she kind of gets her idea for her life off of children's books.

She reads Tarzan. She reads Dr. Doolittle. She reads The Jungle Book and is like, that. Yeah. This is what happens. This is what happens when you endlessly validate your children.

They become primatologists. I know. Gross. I will say, so that she lives through World War II. World War II happens from age 5 to age 11. And they would experience the house shaking from air raids. They're in England.

You know, they had a bomb. shelter and she believed her mom had a kind of like sixth sense that helped them avoid danger during the war. And when you see her just like walking around Gombe and like shorts and flip flaps like chilling with chimps that I'd be worried about ripping my face and dick off, you kind of like wonder where she gets her confidence that nothing bad can possibly happen to her. And I do think that it's probably when your first memory is surviving a quantum machine gun of random

death. You're like, my mom has magic powers that like we're just like meant to be here. You know? Like I guess you would come out of that feeling a little chosen. Like when you know, Gravity's Rainbow has the novel Gravity's Rainbow

has a bunch of good stuff about just that experience of living in London as bombs are just it's like, oh, the neighbor is no longer, the house next door is completely gone. And it's just like complete randomness as to like who lives and who dies. Yeah. I feel like surviving the Blitz would change your understanding of risk and statistics significantly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And make you want to go into the jungle also. I think I'd be like, I'm, get me the fuck out of here. Yeah. Yeah. Bet apes don't have to deal with this bullshit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, she does in the,

she is the first episode of Famous Last Words, the Netflix documentary where they like interview people who they kind of know are going to die pretty soon. And, and then like release it after they died. And in that episode, she expresses her, you know, wanting to send Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

and Xi Jinping, a surprising addition, and Vladimir Putin into outer space on one of Elon Musk's spaceships. So, yeah, I don't think she's like a giant fan of dictators and right-wing lunatics. But I do just, as an aside, but possibly relevant character building from her childhood. So she grows up, her dad goes away to war. She grows up in this matriarchy. And like she said, nobody's ever. told me I couldn't do anything because I was a girl.

Like she just grew, it was all women in the household. A possibly relevant character building detail about her great-grandfather, who was the father of the grandma, who was the head of this household that she grew up in. Once, so his wife had, I think, polio and, like, lost the use of one of her legs. Once after rolling his wife in her wheelchair down to the shops of Bournemouth, he left for a few minutes as she was looking over. bolts of cloth for her summer dresses and stopped to meet a friend for a quick pint at the local

hotel. He returned one year later with a trunk full of Maori artifacts having shipped out to Australia and New Zealand well drunk. So I just like that story first of all because history was a wild ride, man. But also I think it like she has to put up with pretty unreliable exhausting men throughout her journey. And I feel like that's how he became that's how she became so patient with chimpanze.

Exactly. It's like dealing with men. Look at this fucking idiot. She, as mentioned, like kind of invents her life out of Dr. Doolittle, Ruggered Kipling,

lives a Rudyard Kipling life. And Tarzan, she's like, in love with Tarzan, says that Tarzan married the wrong Jane. Oh.

There's a reality show for you. Just like two Janes fighting over Tarzan. Fighting over Tarzan. That's my man. She talks cash shit about Jane from Tarzan like throughout her life. She's always just like, she was weak. She like, I don't know what he saw in her. She really, but just in terms of it, she's also extremely smart.

She goes away to a boarding school, or she's a day student at a boarding school, but a very good school, and she's always like second or third, and her class in exams. Her journal at age 17 shows she was reading 129 books a year. And not children's books to get her numbers up like I do, but like Shakespeare and shit. Get that pan pizza somehow. That's right.

Exactly. But, yeah, a career advisor at this point, is like, okay, you like animals, you're one of our best students, and suggests that for a career, she photographs pet dogs. Okay. Nothing wrong with that. I mean, that would kick some ass. I'd love to photograph cute dogs, but also she, you know.

It's just selling her a bit short. Yeah. But also, I think instructive about how animals were thought of at this time, it's like, Oh, you like animals. You must mean pets. You must mean the ones that we keep on leashes. The domesticated ones. Right, right.

Yeah. Well, we don't want to deal with those ones out there. They seem scary and annoying. They can't even wear little bow ties. And when we try, they rip our faces off. That's right. Her family couldn't afford university. So she went to Queens Secretarial College, not in Queens, New York, just over there.

and this is just something, this is the second time we've seen this. The last time was in Maryland Monroe's iconograph. The school's confidential report said Jane was a clever girl, but rather smug and sometimes inclined to behave as if she has nothing to learn. The Maryland Monroe's confidential report from, I think it was like modeling school,

was equally like, just like kind of read her for filth. And like, I'm just like, we need to get these confidential reports back. so fun. Like, schools are wet. It sounds like they're just like, yeah, they just, that maybe they were too confident, like, oh, she really thinks she's hot stuff.

She thinks she's hot shit. She thinks so great with her little chimpanzees. I need her. Take her down a peg. Exactly. That ponytail is so blitzkrieg. It's got dust in it. I do, I do feel like you could make.

make a good business by just like having a business where you're like, we've compiled a confidential report on you that says all the meanest stuff that people actually think about you and you can pay us like $7,000 to get it. Wow. Imagine people would be like, yes. That would be. Right in my veins. All we have to do is get podcast reviews.

I know. Yeah. We do have the benefit of just having the internet tell us all day what they think of us. Oh, love an anonymous stranger with an anime picture, just telling me that I'm not funny. Nothing better than that. Well, Goku really must know what he's talking about. Yes, he's famously hilarious himself. You probably aren't asking, why isn't she in Africa yet?

But apparently she was the only reason she hadn't gone to Africa yet, like after graduating from secretarial college, was that her beloved dog Rusty was still around. And when Rusty died, she reached kind of an emotional turning point and was like, all right, well, I'm fucking out of here. Yeah. I respect that. Yeah, I do too. Absolutely.

Amazingly, and this is kind of like must be painful for chimps to hear, her favorite animal, like to the day she died was dogs. She was dogs over chimps. You know what's so interesting about that is in terms of research, there's a kind of attempt to move away from studying apes. primates in labs and actually a move forward, like studying dogs, because you don't have to have a captive population of dogs. You can just ask people to bring their dogs in for studies, just like a human being would come in for a study. And they've co-evolved with us. So there's a lot

of really interesting research on dog social behavior that is a lot easier to do. And so there's just like some researchers were saying like, yeah, dogs are the new chimps in terms of studies on social behaviors because they're just so it's there's a lot of things to research there. So it's a, um, I can kind of see why she was, dogs are a lot nicer than chimpanzees in terms of getting along, uh, with each other and with people. You have to be incapacitated for them to rip your face off. Yes. Like whereas chimps will just come right up and do it.

Yeah. No thumbs on a dog. Yeah, yeah. That's right. So this is when she decides to go to Africa. When she was in boarding school, one of her classmates, Klo, was from Kenya and had a farm outside of Nairobi. So she saved up money via waitressing jobs and working at a hotel and mail delivery until she had enough to go to Kenya. Went to Kenya, March 1957, took a 576 foot steamship and arrived in Nairobi on our 23rd birthday.

Wes Anderson needs to get it over with and make a biopic of Jane Goodall, I think, is where we're at. Like, just traveling around on steamer, father race car driver, like everything is just, and everything feels like it takes place in a children's book, much like a Wes Anderson movie. I'm just trying to get him. I was trying to get him to try to get the chimps in the middle of the frame to stay there, though. I think that the cinematography would become difficult after this point in her story. Let's take a quick break and we'll come back and we'll talk about how she goes in a few short years to being, inventing primatology essentially. We'll be right now. Experience you and a pal in Montreal and Oceaga with four nights at residents in downtown Montreal.

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We The In-House is the podcast that's changing that. I'm Theo Henderson, creator and host, and for years I've created a space where the unhoused and their advocates can tell their own stories. In the last few months alone, I've interviewed unhoused parents, immigrants, mutual aid organizers, veterans, the LGBTQTIA plus community, and the policymakers who make the laws that impact the unhoused existence. Weidian Hous is a two-time webby and signal award-winning show with many exciting guests on the horizon. Tune in this week for my interview with Dr. Gio Wichler, a street doctor turned influencer whose work with the unhoused community

has made a huge impact online and in her community. Listen to Weythian House on the IHard Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. And we're back. So she's in Africa, staying with her friend, actually finds a place to live. And her friend tells her about this guy, Dr. Louis Leakey, who's an archaeologist and curator at a museum,

at Nairobi's Natural History Museum. And so this is one of those, I don't think this works anymore, but I haven't tried it. But it comes up a lot in our icon episodes. Like Steve Jobs did a version of this too. She just cold called the museum and said, I'd like to make an appointment to meet your Dr. Leakey. And he was like, I'm Dr. Leakey.

Who the fuck is that now? He's like, well, what do you want? And she was like, oh, yeah. She was like, can I come over? And so he showed her at the museum. They say his secretary had quit two days earlier. And so he soon hired Jane. I think he was like really always trying to fuck her.

like nonstop, which was in keeping with his general vibe. And so unclear if she had quit two days before, if he was like, I don't know who that person is. Don't let her into the office when she tried to come in. But so her secretarial training did pay off. She became his secretary. She kind of uses every piece of her light. Like the boarding school,

she like finds a friend who lives in Africa. She uses her secretarial degree to get a foothold with a scientist. who's going to help her build her career. So anyways, he lets her come on an excavation, and she gets to show off that she's, like, really good at dealing with dangerous wildlife. She has a run-in with a lion and, like, shows that she, like, doesn't freak out because her, again, her energy is just so fucking chill. And, like, she just, like, always knows what to do, never freaks out.

and then as they're on this trip together, she said, he told me that the chimpanzee habitat was remote and rugged and that there would be dangerous animals, and the chimpanzees themselves were four times stronger than humans. Oh, how I longed to undertake an adventure like the one leaky was envisioning. And so she said,

I wish you wouldn't keep talking about that because that's what I want to do. And you're making me fucking pissed. And he replied, Jane, I've been waiting for you to tell me that. Why on earth did you think I talked about those chimpanzees to you. And yeah, just dreamed this into existence with the help of this very old horny scientist,

who, by the way, also, so, all right, I'm going to, a little confession. I didn't know that Gorillas in the Mist was a different person. That's Diana Fossi, right? Yes, exactly. And I didn't know that. Like, I kind of knew it because I knew that that. person got murdered and Jane Goodall was still alive. I just like the phrasing that like the grill is in the mist.

It's a whole different person. Yeah, girl is in the mist is a whole different person, you guys. But he's, uh, she's also sent by Dr. Leaky. Like, Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. This guy was just like, would find young women and be like, I'm going to have them go do the science that I want them to do.

And also turn, you know, have an affair with them. If they'll allow me. Jane was not a taker on that front. And there is a rumor that he tried to get somebody else to go in her set. Like once she was not sleeping with him, he offered the gig to somebody else who just turned it down. But yeah, he sent Diane Fosse to study mountain gorillas, someone named Buruti Galdicus to study orangutans, and Jane Goodall to study chimps. and they were all very successful. And it was just this one very horny scientist who was like, you know, accidentally invented modern primatology.

Dr. Leakey's angels in like that's what they called it. Oh, really? Yeah, that is a nickname that they gave it in the 60s. Dr. Sneaky leaky. Sneaky leaky. Yeah, it's like, come up to see my etchings. Just come up to see my primates. in a super remote area.

Yeah, it's just like if you wanted to get anywhere at any point you just have to deal with gross guys like that. Yes. Yeah. He does, I have looked him up. He does look like

what we're describing to. I'm like, oh yeah, this man definitely was like, I know how I'm going to get laid. I'm glad it didn't work for him. That's great. is he? Yeah. I think it did occasionally.

He had, he definitely was having affairs with some of his young, uh, assistants and secretaries, but not Jane. And she still, you know, again, he was like,

offered the job to someone else. She was just like, all right, well, I'm still going to get it. I'm still, you know, just patient,

persistent. I feel like the Venn diagram also of like, a woman that like would want to go and, and do this necessarily. And, uh, that would be in the situation. that wants to fuck him is like very that's a sliver right i feel like most most people are like i'm

should be respected i'm not here for you dude yeah you'd hope so yeah yeah but yeah anyways his theory of the case and like you know this is probably blending him with like some of his horniness but like his theory was like i'm going to send somebody who is not like part of the scientific establishment because the scientific establishment is so befucked you know like just like so wrong everything in this realm. And so, like, I'm going to send someone with less training so that they can, like, see this with open, fresh eyes. And that's what he does.

And, like, that works, works like a charm. So Jane is not allowed to go to Gombe alone because it's the, you know, sexism, I guess. So she brought her 54-year-old mother. They were like, you got a, your mother needs to sign the permission. lip and accompany you as a chaperone. So again, like, I'm outraged on her behalf, and she just, like, takes it in stride. She's like, yeah, it was actually good because, like, my mom encouraged me when I was down on the dumps.

And also, her mom is, like, really is really helpful. I think her mom is in the Hall of Fame for good icon parents with Tupac's mom. She's, like, just great. She, like, opens a clinic there to help people, like, help local humans in the area, and which helps them, you know, have the goodwill of the people as they're, like, starting this longest ever kind of scientific study. At the time, people were like, well, how long are you going to send them for, send her for, like, 10 days?

That's, that's entirely too long. And he was, like, actually three months. And then it ended up being, like, two decades. that she was there. The chip reserve is right off of the coast of Lake Tanganyika, which is the second deepest lake in the world, holds more freshwater than all the North American Great Lakes combined. I'm just woefully ignorant about Africa

and all the amazing things that are there. They say it's like crystal clear, very beautiful. And she shows up and like the chimps won't stay around her for like months, basically. Like anytime she tries to get close to them, they run away. It's a real, this would be the like montage of like, you know, her working to get closer. They keep running away. There's like one psycho chimp that like runs up on her and like bashes her in the head

and tries to push her over a cliff. And again, she's just like, oh, okay. Well, I'm going to keep hanging out. And slowly by slowly they're like, man, she can take a punch. punch. This Jane gal's got something. She also gives them bananas, which is smart,

but some scientists are like, they're just, you're just like going to you because you're giving them bananas. It's like so, so, yeah. It's not like she has a briefcase of cash

and she's like, do a thing that I want you to do so that like they're going to her and now she can observe them. But like the scientific orthodoxy is just like very, very annoying. It's much more natural to have a bunch of chimpanzees in captivity than to offer one a banana.

Yeah, exactly. They're going to find anything they kind of like invalidate her work at this point though, you know? Yes. Yeah. But yeah, the other big thing that she breaks with orthodoxy on is instead of numbering the chimps, she gives them names.

David Greybeard is like, the star. He is, you know, a leader in the pack and, like, is also just the first one who's like,

I think I like her, like starts hanging out with her. Um, comes within five feet of her to grab some bananas. And by the time, like six to eight months on the footage is incredible. Like, they're just chilling with her.

Um, and it's awesome. Yeah. Flow is the matriarch who hangs out with her and is like another leader. But soon everybody's hanging out with her and there's like these amazing baby chimps who are hanging out. So two of the big things that she learns. One is everybody thought chimps were vegetarians. And she like three months after arriving, she finds them devouring a bushpubes. pig, which is, I don't know, assuming that they just, like, found it. But yeah, so they are definitively not vegetarians.

And then days after that, so she, like, you know, is this untrained privateologist who's like, oh, so you have the species like exactly, like completely wrong guys. And then days later, she sees David Grabeard using a grass stem to dig termites out of a nest. and not only is he like fishing into the termite mound with these grass stems. He has like a whole group of these grass stems that he has like pre-selected for being good at this. So he has like a toolbox of these grass stems that he is using to get termites again. Yeah, and modify like they would like they would modify the tools like pull. leaves off of it and kind of like, and then select things, modify them and then have their little

stick assortment. Then they would use different sort of quality of branches like for delicate tasks like getting termites or less delicate tasks like murdering bush babies and eating them. They would use larger branches for that just to, you know, whack a bush baby on that. And if you've ever seen a bush baby, they're super, super cute, uh, adorable. They're from the, if you've seen Madagascar, the Dreamworks. Those, yeah.

Mort is a bush baby. Very cute. But yeah, the chimpanzees would just like, or no, I don't know if that's actually true. But anyways, it was, they would just smack these four little things and kill them and eat them. And it's like, yeah, no, not vegetarians.

Not vegetarians and also able to use tools, which, yeah. That was how humans defined themselves at that point. Like, it was man are tool using animals. Like that was, they were trying to get by as being special on a technicality. She informed Leaky. God, Leaky, what a name. There's a whole chat going on in the chat about how that is the,

Superdiser Catherine said that is the perfect name for a scientific sex. past. And Brian pitched doctor discharge, which is disgusting. Yeah. But when she let him know about the tools, he said, now we must redefine tool, stop. Redefine man, stop. Or accept chimpanzees as human.

Primatologist Jill Prutz calls this one of the most important discoveries about animal behavior ever made. And she's like doing it months after arriving with no scientific. background essentially. Like a lot of... It's pretty round. Scientific background, but like none of the official degrees

that are supposed to make you good at that sort of thing. That line goes extremely hard to just like or redefine what it means to be human. It's very cool. Also, I have to correct a very terrible area I made. Mort from Madagascar is not a Bush baby. He's a mouse slimmer. And then there's a whole thing where,

for some reason, when you look at the Wikipedia, for more from Madagascar, it blames him for 9-11. I don't know what's going on. Oh, there's a theory. Yeah. I've also always blamed him for 9-11. That's so weird. I had no idea.

Jane Goodall in New York during 9-11. Just putting it out there. I'm not saying she caused it, but she does have a knack for being in dangerous situations and just sort of coasting by. I know there's also a permit also gets blamed for 9-11 as well. So not,

some, but some animated character, absolutely is responsible. Not us. Kermit, I can definitely see. Kermit, like,

that's, no question. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back. We'll talk about, she immediately becomes, like, world famous,

not immediately, but soon after this becomes world famous. And we'll talk about Jane Goodall as icon. We'll be right back. Pride is like love. You feel it in your heart.

IHR Radio, Canada's number one streaming app for radio and podcasts, including IHart Pride Canada, your favorite hits and must have party bangers, plus personalized and curated playlists, like Back in the Day Pride. Come together, celebrate, love. Take pride with you anytime, anywhere. Just ask your smart speaker to play IHart Pride Canada. Stream us on your phone. Or listen now at iHartRadio.ca.

Number one hits, millions of records sold, awards, sold out tours. You think that Jonas Brothers are satisfied? Nope, it's podcast time. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Hey Jonas is available now, and their first guest is a big one. Paul Rudd. You know, Steve Carell is a great singer. Can you tell you not to audition at the office or something?

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She did so many interviews. It's crazy. But I think it was actually WTF with Mark Merrin. He asked if she like keeps up with the old crew. Who are your guys? Yeah. Yeah, David Great Beard. You know, just naming all our old chimps.

And she said that all the offspring of Flo, so Flo is this like charismatic matriarch figure in the group. And like all of her sons. have been like subsequent leaders of the tribe. So there's like nepotism also, which is kind of impressive. Like that I was like, well, she was cool.

So like intergenerational nepotism is kind of impressive. Wow. And I love the idea of, yeah, the other chimps are complaining about the nepotism within their own tribe as well to being like, it's just because your mom was flow. That's the reason.

you're starring in this movie. So at this point, she and Dr. Leakey, like, have a sense of, like, what's happening here and that, like, it would be helpful for her to have a little bit more official training. So she is accepted to do a PhD at Cambridge, even though she doesn't have an undergrad degree. She's one of eight people, I think, who've ever been admitted to a PhD program without first having a bachelor's degree. I'm sure that was a very enjoyable experience showing up as like the famous chimp woman with no undergrad. I'm sure she was accepted immediately.

They were so. Randy, you're going to be shocked to hear this. They were all like, no, no, no, no. All wrong. You shouldn't be giving them names and you are giving them entirely too much credit for their emotions. and yeah, just really putting her patience to the test, but it does seem to be a bottomless resource patience because, yeah, this is where you would get a lot of just the worst characters

of all time in her biopic are the Cambridge scientists who, like, as she knows, like, she has these direct observations are like contradicting her based on like some shit they saw a chip doing a cage, You know? Yeah. And they really liked, I think one of the issues was they really liked this artifice that, to be a scientist, you're completely objective. There's no subjectivity. It's facts before feelings, right?

You know, you don't have any, you're not putting your thumb on the scale at all when you're conducting studies. And with Jane Goodall, she was like, yeah, I mean, I'm kind of involved with these chimps, right? And yeah, of course, like, I have biases and I have my favorites and I have my buddies and the ones that I don't like so much. Yeah. Some of them are assholes. Yeah. Yeah. She was very open about that.

And she kind of was like, yeah, you know, I'm biased because I'm communicating with other creatures, right? Like, just like you would when you're talking to people. And so she kind of didn't pretend to be completely objective, like a completely objective observer. She was like, what is that? journalism like gonzo journalism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like a gonzo scientist. Yes, exactly. Which is kind of

the only honest way to do the job. Because if you're acting like you're not there, you're introducing a fiction into the very premise of the observate. Like, there is no world in which you are getting these

animals in a completely objective state, like unless it's just you know, cameras. Like I guess eventually. Well, have you seen Spy in the Wild where they do those just nuts, animal robots look insane? They're like a completely normal looking sea lion. It's like, me, boop, I'm a sea lion.

Yeah. So before they had that amazing technology. One of the things she really had to put up with it this time was that, and there's no easy way to put this. She was hot and everybody was like, oh, she's just a cover model for this. Like, you know, they, she did just like, she showed

up with like short, she wore short shorts and like just, you know, a short sleeve shirt and like sandals. Like, it's kind of crazy like how little gear she had on and you know, people were like, she only got on the cover of National Geographic

because of her legs. It's like, no, she just happens to have like great legs well also making scientific history you dip shit. But they also, every time National Geographic would come out, they would be like, all right, can we get you washing your hair in a stream? It was like a very specific shot that they got every time. Hey, can we, uh,

can you like wash your hair? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Here's an evening gown to blend in with the monkeys. Yeah. Yeah, insane. Everybody's so horny and weird. I know. Everybody is just such a creep,

especially in that, like, men in the 60s and 70s, it's just like they haven't even, they hadn't even thought that they were wrong about, like being fucking perverts. No.

Like, yeah, no, of course. This is the way it has to be. It's just like madmen, but with scientists, just like,

yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. In December 1965, CBS News aired the National Geographic Special Miss Goodall and the wild chimpanzees narrated by Orson Wells. And it was viewed by 25 million households because there were, there was nothing else to do at the time.

So just everybody saw this shit. And it, you know, changed to the way that people think about humanity and our position in the world. No big deal. But, yeah. So she becomes incredibly famous. I wish they would re-show some of this stuff a little bit more often now because then you see people getting into like the exotic trades and like dressing their chimps up like the Chucky doll or whatever. And you're like, no, no, please, please go watch what their society looks like and respect it again. Right.

Yeah. Like no joke. I think the movie, uh, nope, uh, is one of the best things in terms of trying to set back the, uh, the exotic wild. life trade, maybe that in Tiger King, I don't know. But yeah, it's, it has been a minute since we really, because one thing that I thought Jane Goodall, because she, I think she gets a little bit of, we think of her as like being sort of a, like saying, like being a chimp advocate, which she is, but she's also pretty unflinching about how chimps are assholes. And we'll talk about how violent and warlike they are as well.

and she doesn't, she's not like, yeah, chimps suck. Like, so let's kill them all. She's just realistic about them being violent and, but also having a lot of interesting depth to them. So I think that's, that kind of also, I think it's hard for people to wrap their heads around where it's like, oh, so they're like both violent and chill sometimes like people. Like people almost. Yeah, interesting.

A war breaks out in the 70s, like, between, like, there's part, part of the group of chimps, like splinters off, and then they have a couple years where they just, like, live together in harmony, and then something sets them off and they go to war and, like, five are killed. And that's, like, very eye-opening for her. She's like, wow, they are just like us. And, like, at the time, there's a lot of questions of, like, are people innately aggressive and violent? and she was like, yeah, I think so. Like, it seems like that our closest, you know, genetic relative.

Like, we are closer than rats and mice with chimps, you know? Like, we're basically the same to any other species looking at us. They're like, oh, there goes some chimps. There have been revisions to that idea kind of more recently where we think that probably are, because like we're also very close to bonobos. and our genetics. And there's like this idea that we may have become, you know,

our sort of history became different from like chimpanzees because we became less aggressive and more cooperative than say chimpanzees didn't. That's why we've got Starbucks and chimpanzees don't. Right. We're like the dog to, like chimps are like the wolf version of us kind of. That's actually, yes,

that's actually a really good way to put it because there's this idea of sort of self-domestication where we selected ourselves for a more domesticated version of our ancestors. And that's a similar thing that happened with dogs. We domesticated dogs, of course, but also dogs, or will, somewhat domesticated themselves because they would come and approach humans and, like, the ones that were more, you know,

amenable to belly rubbins were the ones that. would survive. And we're kind of seeing what like... I'm so amenable to that, by the way. Belly rubbins. Yeah. Well, and what we're seeing that with like coyotes and raccoons are kind of self-domesticating now too, right? So like, that just seems easier.

Yeah. If I'm just cute. Yeah. Yeah. Make an Instagram account for me. Yeah. Sure. And then so she becomes world famous.

She's doing all this great scientific work. They're like these Stanford scientists who talk about, you know, classically trained scientists who are like, I went in the field with her for one day, and she just, like, has this amazing eye, and she, like, sees things in the animal's behavior that, like, I wouldn't, I hadn't noticed in being in the field for, like, three months.

She's just, like, very talented as a scientist. And then she's also just, like, a really, like, great at being a celebrity. Like, she's just, like, a really good time. and so she also is able to kind of pivot the science career into a advocacy career. She went to this conference in Chicago in 1986 called Understanding Chimpanzees.

And she said she like arrived at that conference as a scientist and left as an activist because she didn't realize like chimpanzees were actually going extinct because she was in this protected reserve area and around the world. You know, habitats were being destroyed and chimps were dying and disappearing.

And so she's then just like went to work, creating like 3.4 million acres of habitat under a conservation action plan. She created this Roots and Shoots program, which encouraged young people to engage in local community action. That's still, like that one has grown and grown and grown. And it does feel like her focus on young people has been, effective young people, I think, are as aware of who she is and, like, the mission and, um, conservation as much as anybody.

From what I read, it sounded like she really would have, like, if she could have just done sort of what she felt like doing, she would have just been out there with the chimpanzees all the time and not having to do sort of, uh, all the press that she did, but she felt this responsibility. And she was really good at communicating, uh, with people. probably the same skills that made her good at communicating with non-people. And so she did it anyways. Like, when she passed away, she was in the middle of, like, a press tour still going at it. So she was like really just, I think she had like a huge amount of like stamina and fortitude for doing things that were like maybe not the most pleasant thing for her, but she would do it anyways because she felt that that was important.

from our researcher, Meredith Danco, she said, on the recurring subject of drug use, because we do end up talking about drug use a lot on this show, just because all these icons are really under drugs. But Jane was not, but she was a drinker who enjoyed wine and whiskey, although she said on Caller Daddy that she didn't like wine as much. But she did say,

it's not just like she was, she occasionally sipped a whiskey. She says she and her mom both didn't really drink water. She was like, I didn't, doesn't, doesn't, water doesn't really agree with me. We kind of like whiskey. And so I drink whiskey every night at seven. And also I drink whiskey if my throat is like, if I need my voice to be loose, which is one way of describing the effect of alcohol. Sure. Yeah. Okay, Jane. But she, she's also like, as she's doing the work that Kate is talking about, where she's like out, you know, spreading the word and, um, like, speaking and just being

this iconic figure for conservation and, um, nature, uh, she's just like really, she's almost like camping. Like, she talks about how she would use her hotel clothing iron to, like, toast bread. She's just like, she's like, I don't need much. I have like three outfits and I just need a loaf of bread that I can toast on the iron. I wonder if she's the one that's cleaning her underwear in the coffee pot. Yeah, she might be. She might be the one. Yeah.

I saw a video of a guy at a hotel with a hack where you cook chicken in a coffee pot. And I just, I don't, I think civilization might have been a mistake. Yeah. You can't be using those coffee pots for coffee. Don't. We can't be trusted. No. but yeah, I mean, her religion was basically, if I have a soul, I think chimpanzees have a soul and trees do too.

And why the theory of evolving humans should be contrary to any kind of religion I can't imagine, which I don't know. That does seem like, I feel like we're waiting for a religion that embraces science and not just by calling itself Scientology, but like actually is like. Like, yeah, no, we can have room for both of those things. What about scienceology? Scienceology, maybe. Won't get sued for that. Yeah. One of my favorite details about her is that she, I won't say she believed in Bigfoot,

but she also is, she's kind of like I am with aliens. She, like wanted to believe in Bigfoot. She's like agnostic. Yeah, she's like Bigfoot agnostic. And there's this anecdote where she said, so an interviewer said, I have a silly question if you'll indulge me, and I'm sure you know where this is going.

You've said you're not ruling out that Bigfoot exists. And she said, for various reasons, and I'll tell you one, my most striking one. I was in Ecuador. We'd flown for two solid hours over unbroken forest in a small plane, and we visited four tiny little communities, 30 to 50 people, no roads, and they communicate with each other by means of,

like in the old days, it was the town crier. But these are hunters, actually. and they carry the news from one village to another and letters and things like that. So I had an interpreter and I said to him, when you next meet one of these hunters, could you ask if they've ever seen a monkey without a tail, which would be a chimp?

Three of the hunters came back and said, oh, yes, we've seen monkeys without tails. They walk up right and they're about six foot tall. And she said, now this was an interpreter from the village. He knew nothing about Bigfoot, nothing at all. every single country has its version. Yeti, Yowie in Australia,

Wildman in China. So I don't know if it's perhaps a myth that stems from maybe the last of the Neanderthals, but then is the last of the Neanderthal still living in these remote forests? I don't know, but I'm not going to say it doesn't exist and I'm not going to say people who believe in it are stupid. My theory is very hairy pervert.

Very hairy pervert named Dr. Leaky. Dame Deckerleke. Still out there jacking off. Jane, you want to go on it. Just covered himself and hair, just disappearing into the forest. Does this make you horny, Jane? Now I'm just thinking about a Bigfoot in an Austin Powers Halloween costume, just like. Another one of my favorite details that I came across is that she met the British Royal Family in 19,

And in a letter, she described her 10-minute conversation with the queen as a most informal chat, she wrote. She said she'd seen one of the films on TV, all pleasant. But the almost uncanny part was the way she turned on and off. It was almost as though a computer inside her was sometimes a bit late dropping the next penny in the slot. And the smile and interest faded. Then suddenly, zoom, there was again, in a flash. She's like perfectly lovely, but also her essence is that of a malfunctioning robot. It's like such a kind own.

That is amazing. Yeah, that's so real of her. Just like meets royalty. It's like kind of seems like a robot. Yeah. Not all there, turns out. Imagine how disassociated you would be if you were the queen of England. Yeah.

Be hard to be like, oh, yeah. I'm, they're probably about the same age, ish, kind of too, right? Well, I mean,

they're both dead, so. Yeah, yeah. In many ways, they're, everybody who's dead is the same age.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. She had been told Prince Philip was interested in chimps, but quickly realized he was,

quote, not interested in animals one tiny bit. So, um, yeah, and then we have the far side, uh,

story, which, uh, Gary Larson published a comic. It's one chimp grooming, another. It says, well, well, another blonde hair conducting a little more research with that Jane Goodall Tramp. It's an important detail is the speaking chimp has like horn rim and glasses, like the sort of

glasses that women would wear in the 50s. Uh-huh. With the little cat eye thing. And so it's like that that's his way of showing us that that's the lady chimp. That's a lady chimp because she has worn rim glasses. Yeah. It's, it's,

I, yeah, I would, when I was a kid, I would read his comics, uh, whenever I would go to the potty. Um,

I had a lot of the Gary Larson books. Yeah. So I know all of them. A Goodall Foundation representative wrote a letter of complaint calling it inexcusable. And incredibly offensive. Uh, Jane Goodall was like, I thought it was kind of funny.

Yeah. And so they ended up becoming. friends. Larson visited Gamba at one point. And on a hike, he was attacked by the resident bully chimp, Frodo. I think Frodo was also the one who almost threw her over a cliff and had to hug a tree to protect himself. He was bruised and scratched, but not seriously harmed. And then Jane Goodall sold T-shirts featuring the comic and wrote the introduction for the Farsai Gallery I will just say. So in one respect, it could just be like,

oh, she's a good sport. Or it could be that she was like, once I saw that, I decided to lay the trap. I was going to be very friendly to him. And then bring him out and then let Frodo intimidate him until he let me

make money off his bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just heard a pair of aviators just tipping him and being like, Frodo. Yeah. Frodo, you know what to do with this motherfucker, right? He's got the ring.

They've got the little earpieces, but it's just a banana. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just Frodo. Yeah, I got it boss. He's holding it to his hand. Solemely hanging up a banana and then going on a mission. Anyways, she passed away in October. Really sad.

Really sad. but what a life. What an icon. She was quite, she was quite old. 91 when she died. Yeah. Good.

That's awesome. I know. And yeah, the famous last words, you know, is the intro, because it's the first episode, they're like,

what if you could hear the words? What if the dead could speak? Like, they're really selling it. Like, it's like, this thing. It's just like, I don't know,

man. It's like, we, that we know about recording technology. We know that like we can watch a thing with somebody who's passed away. But it is a cool interview because she's just, you know, very circumspect and cool and claims to have the magical ability to stop the rain. She's like, yeah, sometimes I can do it. I can stop the rain just by asking it to stop. Just apropos of nothing. Just looks at the interviewer dead in the eye. I can control the weather.

Yeah, essentially. Hell yeah. But she does just kind of have this magic about her. Like, that is one of the things that you can't really describe, but she, like, it just seems like everybody has the same experience where they're like, oh, and then I, like, was in the same room with her,

and I found myself crying and asking if I could touch her. It's like, what? Why'd you do that? You fucking freak. Leaky, get out of here. Leaky. Leaky, is that you again? He takes off a different costume.

There's a one anecdote. One time I accompanied Jane to the Federal Correctional Institute in Danbury, Connecticut, where a group of women prisoners that started a Roots & Shoots chapter, arriving on a drizzly, misty morning. We were searched, fingerprinted, and otherwise processed under the lockup

by a pair of guards, one of whom may not have had his morning coffee yet. He was big, burly, and business-like, tough-looking, stony-faced, until Jane greeted him with a chimpanzee pant hoot, which if I had tried that, would have gotten my ass kicked. In this case,

instantly shattered the stone of his demeanor. The other guard said, that's the first time he's smiled in history. I've got to write that one down. But yeah, that's like the sort of person she is. She's just like, you can't really like take yourself too seriously around her.

And she used it. it for good, I would say. Overall. She's very, like, very, like, saint-like without the kind of religious baggage. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's kind of like what religion should be, you know? Yeah.

Immaculate vibes. Love it. Katie, any, anything else that I missed, since I feel like you know more about this subject than I do? No, I mean, I think you got pretty much all that just like she was. it was really her persistent chillness. I mean, she was, we can't understate or we can't overstate how smart she was. She was extremely intelligent, but also just very persistently chill. Yes.

And in a way that was just every, like, not just humans, but non-human primates recognize as like, oh, this is just an incredibly kind and patient person. So I will not rip her limb from limb and hang out with her. And yeah, in terms of like the greatest like paradigm shifts in terms of like chimpanzees use tools. They have also like that they have personalities because that was the whole controversy of her. Oh, you're humanizing these chimps. There was this idea that animals were all just kind of like, I don't know, carbon copies of each other, just sort of like printed out of a genetic mold and she's like, no, they have different

personalities. They're individuals and that was kind of a, I mean, it was a huge paradigm shift. And in addition to almost getting Gary Larson, almost getting him killed, she did save him from being sued. So that was, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because like he was, he was, he was. really worried and stressed about getting sued because he was actually a huge fan of Jane Goodall and she was a huge fan of his and they just, it was kind of like a, like a platonic meat cute only like he almost got sued

and then almost got killed by a chimpanzee, yeah. It's kind of what like just the danger of like I remember watching the documentary Jane which is a lot of her, she ended up marrying the photographer who now National Geographic sent to document all the amazing work she was doing.

And he was a jealous asshole, who another kind of infuriating man that she had to sort of patiently suffer. But the footage of her walking through the jungle, at first I was like, oh, man, like I guess I was overestimating how dangerous it is to be in the jungle. And then you, like, she's like, no, there were. poisonous snakes everywhere. Like there were, you know, all these crazy things. But yeah, she just could

kind of float through on immaculate vibes. I feel like that's sort of her thing. Yeah. And also like what are you, well, you're jealous for the other chimps? Like, what are you doing, dude? Like, have one ounce

of your wife's chill. Believe it or not, he was he was jealous of all the attention and adulation that she was getting. Jesus. Yeah. Which he couldn't possibly... I'm good, too, essentially, seems to be.

Yeah. Yikes. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, Diane Fosse, like, was murdered. Like, there were real dangers out there that, like, she just kind of... Did they have a relationship at all? All the various ape women? Yeah.

Diane Fossy visited her, and at first, they were chill. And then she was like, Jane was just, again, like, similar with the queen where it's like, she's like, yeah, she was perfectly lovely. She's kind of a fucking idiot, though. So, like, she just said that Diane Fossey, like, hadn't really bothered. Like, she was heading into her gorillas in the mist. Part of her, like, going to study the gorillas where they live. in the mist, presumably.

Hey, this isn't her icon episode, right? No, no, no. Even though I thought it was. And she she said that we got slightly annoyed with her. Things started well, but Jane thought Diane had, quote,

the most romantic notions in her head, which is kind of like, Jen, like her hopes to keep a cow and hens where she was and to spend time making jam. And Jane was like, no, you toasts, bread, on a clothing iron and you get back to work. Where was Frodo on the night that Diana died?

Where was? I love the shade of just like she's out there making jam. She thinks she's going to make jam and keep a fucking cow. This jammy bitch out there. Dry toast. She's jelly ass out of here. Amazing. Katie, wonderful having you. Where can people find you, follow you, hear you, all that good stuff? Thank you so much for having me. I love talking about Jane. Yeah, I have a show that I co-host called A Secretly Incredibly Fascinating with a Human Golden Retriever, Alex Schmidt.

Much smarter than a golden retriever. Yes, I'm just saying in terms of the eubilant joy for the world. Yes, just a kind, similarly unflappable disposition. Yes, but he actually does all, he does all the work on this show. I just go like, wow, that's secretly incredibly fascinating. He was there to call him a human golden retriever. It's also like a six-time Jeopardy champion. Yes, he's very sharp.

And so good at fetch. And very good at fetch. And yeah, yeah. I have my show, a creature feature. I did just have a boy child. A boy child. A boy child. I'm in the midst of that, so I'm on a hiatus from a creature feature.

But there's a huge bad catalog. So if you've never listened to it, there's a ton of episodes. It's all about animals and cool conversations with people about evolutionary biology. So you can check that out on this network. And yeah, if you, if you enjoy, who enjoys politics? Nobody. But if you are masochistic and interested in politics, you can see I've written some things for summer news, which you can see on YouTube.

YouTube. Janko also had a, there's a lot. We didn't even have time to get to. She had a boy child while working in Gombe and like had to keep the baby in. I can't. She, like, built a big cage for the baby to keep, because the chimps would have killed him. A baby cage. That's what I need.

I know. But it was massive. It was big. It was not as bad as it sounded. I, yeah, a cage to keep down just for the boy's safety. A giant boy. Giant. Put the boy in the cage.

Return the baby in the cage. Brandy, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, of course. learned a lot. That was awesome. Where can people find you, follow you, all that good stuff? I'm at Brandazel on Instagram. Brandazel is here on TikTok. My podcast is called Lady to Lady. It's me, Babs Gray, Tess Barker. We sit down with a fourth guest every week and just kind of like jam. And it's just like having a fun brunch with your friends. And then my new special is called Milk Job. It is available on the Burn This Records YouTube page, which I run that record label. And I'd really appreciate it came over and watched it. It would mean quite a lot to me. Also, hey, here's the thing. If you have watched already, go leave a comment on it.

Tell me your favorite Jane Goodall Fact or what you would name a chimp if you had one living near you. Would love to get that engagement would be great. Yeah, and I'm on Warped Tour all summer. So come say hi if you happen to be at that kind of thing. There you go. All right. That's going to do it for this part of the podcast. We'll be right back with the No, No, No, No, No.

Notebook dump. And we'll talk to you in a second. All right. That was our episode. Thanks to Katie Golden coming to us all the way from Italy. Italy at a mall near you. No, uh, Italia. Thanks to Brandy Posey. Coming to us all the way from a different building in Los Angeles than I was in. Thanks to Meredith Danko for the research. This is the no, no, no, no, no notebook dump. We didn't spend a lot of time with the men in her life, uh, for pretty good reason. I mean, she's interesting enough on her own.

But she married the guy who photographed her for that first Nat Geo shoot, Hugo. I forget if I mentioned that. And with him, she had a son who was called Grub, who mainly had to live inside a large steel and mesh cage to remain not eaten or killed. He had to run him with a black mamba snake at a certain point and a cobra at another's. By the way, the cage sounds worse than it was. It was a nice cage. It was decorated with hanging birds and stars and held furniture,

like a cot, a chair, a stroller, a bouncer. And yeah, Grub sounded awesome. He could speak Swahili and English and Chimp. Again, just green light the Wes Anderson movie, okay? Who loves a precocious white child more than Wes Anderson? Hugo sounds a little bit less awesome. He got jealous of her success and she eventually divorced him

and married another guy who also got jealous of her success, amazingly. One ingredient I hadn't had in mind when I started doing research into these icons and yet an ingredient that keeps showing up is a belief by these icons in like some,

mystical power, like a magical force that is choosing them and powering their success. And when you describe it out loud, it sounds stupid, but you can just tell it's like life and death to them. Like the one Elvis believing his stillborn twin Aaron was like powering his musical career. Bob Dylan seeing Buddy Holly live like three days before Buddy Holly died in the plane crash and Bob Dylan like believed he passed his rock star force onto him before he died like it follows

yeah Jane seems to believe she can like stop the rain and seems to like have the sense that she was protected from getting killed by nature but possibly passed down from her mum others like Blitzkrieg ESP. I wish I knew the trick for making myself believe something like that. I guess that's why this is not a self-help podcast. This is not one simple trick.

Your doctor doesn't want you to know. You can't, as far as I can figure it, make yourself believe that you have these magic powers. The magic is like too stupid sounding to come in through your conscious word mind. So you just have to find a way to believe it with your body. the icons just seem to believe they're special and reality follows. And in her case, maybe she was chosen. In terms of the danger of what she was doing,

one of the other people working at the reserve, like once they got up and running and became successful, fell off a waterfall and died, a bunch of the people who were working on the reserve got kidnapped. Once some locals who were mad at them came to the camp to try and scare her in her mom away, and they just like happened to be out. And so they just like chopped a bunch of trees down and like said harumphrum and marched off.

But yeah, she just kind of floated through even as she was famous. Diane Fosse got a little famous and was promptly murdered. Jane just kind of floated through. On the leaky stuff, just what a weird character. The guy behind the scenes of history just driving. important innovation with the wisdom of his horniness. I don't know another example that I can think of, of someone whose sexual pursuit of women

who were presumably not interested in him did more good. Like his good instincts around scientific research aligned with his penis instincts, I guess. A little bit of messiness. His biographer has suggested that he ended up having a relationship with Van, Jane's mom, which I don't know. I guess not that scandalous. It makes sense. They wrote a book together, definitely more age appropriate than Jane or any of the women he tended to pursue. Others have speculated that they had a longstanding affair and that Jane

was secretly his daughter, which would make his hitting on her all the time either incredibly creepy or, you know, if he didn't know, just horrifying dramatic irony, like an old boy situation. But anyways, that idea that he's her father, probably apocryphal, in terms of her being extremely confident that she wasn't going to get hurt, there's another reason for this that she provides in the Jane documentary besides her magical powers. And she explains it when she's talking about how her plan was to like get the chimps to come close to her. The interviewer says, except they can rip your face off. And Jane said, well, I didn't know that. I didn't think about that. There was nobody talking about that. You have to realize that back then, there were no people out in

the field whose research I could read about except this one man and he saw chimps once or maybe twice in the three months of his study. So in other words, if the chip researchers hadn't done such shitty work, maybe I would have known that these chimps could kill me. It is kind of crazy to think. about her just like out there fearlessly among these animals being like they're peaceful loving animals and then a decade in like war breaks out she's just like oh oh no um in keeping with her tendency to be in dangerous situations uh while remaining perfectly safe she was in new york city during 9-11 uh she also had a correspondence with secretary of state colon pal days before the iraq war began. She wrote to him, quote, in so many of the places where I spend time around the world,

I fear the anger against our two countries will erupt, and a world with even more terrorism and hatred is horrible to contemplate. And he agreed with her, and America stopped the unbroken string of terrible decisions that was leading them to millions of preventable, unnecessary deaths. It's almost like we still exist in the political equivalent of the scientific world that, you know, Jane entered at age 26. You know, a world run entirely by men with Skinner boxes being like, you can't show empathy. That's not smart and objective.

We've got to be cruel and number these living things. And yeah. Maybe we could use a Jane Goodall, or many Jane's Goodall to enter the sphere of political power to study out these chimpanzees in Washington, act and operate, if you know what I'm saying. All right, that's going to do it for this week's episode. Up next Monday, Miles is back with Francesca Fiorentini to talk about the Johnny Knoxville of the early 20th century Amelia Earhart. more zeitgeist in the meantime. We will talk to you all then. Bye!

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